Wind and Truth Full Book Reactions (Cosmere Edition)

[boonboon]

11 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

If Adolin was supposed to OC, it would have been during WoR time. The moment Adolin became a main character in Oathbringer, I was sure he would never be Odium's champion. It just wouldn't fit with the perfect kind prince archetype he was growing into. Or his arc with Maya. It would not make sense for him to become Odium's champion then

 

Why put "the sign of the nine" in OB then? Why does Adolin drift away from Dalinar and sides with Taravangian in RoW?

[KaladinWorldsinger]

8 minutes ago, boonboon said:

Why put "the sign of the nine" in OB then? Why does Adolin drift away from Dalinar and sides with Taravangian in RoW?

The sign of the nine is probably a red herring for the champion( Dalinar is revealed to be Odium's choice in OB as a big twist). Remember, the child Champion theory comes from a death rattle in WoK. So it is very likely that Adolin was never going to OC. Also remember, The Dalinar flashbacks all center around Dalinar sparing a child. This was pretty much set in stone.

Adolin drifting away from Dalinar in Row is due to Dalinar's judgementalism and him killing Evi. Dalinar always thinks of himself as right and is very obstinate and rigid.

This is why, in Wat, Dalinar asks Adolin for an apology. Adolin never did anything wrong in their relationship 

Adolin never aligns with Tara

[boonboon]

10 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

The sign of the nine is probably a red herring for the champion( Dalinar is revealed to be Odium's choice in OB as a big twist). Remember, the child Champion theory comes from a death rattle in WoK. So it is very likely that Adolin was never going to OC. Also remember, The Dalinar flashbacks all center around Dalinar sparing a child. This was pretty much set in stone.

Adolin drifting away from Dalinar in Row is due to Dalinar's judgementalism and him killing Evi. Dalinar always thinks of himself as right and is very obstinate and rigid.

This is why, in Wat, Dalinar asks Adolin for an apology. Adolin never did anything wrong in their relationship 

Adolin never aligns with Tara

Mmm, alright, I revoke my statement. 

[BinarySecond]

Another question I forgot. Is Notum wielding his own Father as a blade?

[Forged Herald]

14 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

So when TOdium saw a way to win at the end of RoW, was his plan all along for Cultivation to convince Dalinar into exploring the spirit realm, and then for the Ghostbloods to blow up the perpendicularity while Gavinor just so happens to be in the area?  So that he can isolate Gavinor in an age pocket and convince him to be his champion?  And this within the limited 10 day timeframe?  Because that's an impressive plan.  Clearly a very smart man to plan out all these specific events outside his control.

I don't see it that way. I believe he saw ways to conquer all (or most of Roshar) because of the wording of the Contract, and find a way to torment Dalinar (as he did with Jasnah) into renouncing his ideals.

His plan was to expose Dalinar to a false Dichotomy in which both options were bad for Dalinar and good for his plans. He WANTED to have time to prepare for his invasion, the outcome of the Duel was never that important.

Gavinor being offered as a Champion wasn't something he planned (imo), but something that fell in his lap and he could see as having great potential. During the actual duel, he didn't care if Dalinar killed Gavinor and won, because both outcomes were good for him. He just wanted to confront Dalinar with a seemingly impossible choice.

Going back to Hoids story: How do you lose an unlosable contest? By not showing up. How do you win an unwinable contest? By refusing to participate.

EDIT: Also Odium could never predict anything involving Renarin, Rlain or Mraize, so it'd be impossible for him to know Gavilor would be sucked into the Spiritual Realm.

Edited December 11, 2024 by Forged Herald

[The Sovereign]

I'll go into broader thoughts on the book when I have more time but a few quick notes:

-Stormseat was sitting on top of a huge pile of Duralumin? "Not Aluminum but something greater".
-Axendweth was likely the "Terriswoman Nurse" who "took care" of Lemex.
-Does Shallan have a 5th Sibling or is one of her Siblings a half sibling? (Likely Helaran)

Edited December 11, 2024 by The Sovereign

[BinarySecond]

6 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

Duralumin

[Arceoxys he/him]

I largely enjoyed this book for the most part. I've read a few grievances I also agree with. Largely to do with prose, and the quality of the *writing* itself. (As a quick aside, I am frankly shocked at how many people place RoW at the bottom of the SA books. It is my favourite, and it isn't close)

Pros:
Kaladin and Szeth. I really enjoyed this section. This felt like a good use of rehashing growth we have seen from Kaladin already, to have it solidify. There wasn't much going on here, but the PoVs were usually short and sweet, so it also never felt like it was dragging.

 

Adolin was also great, though his section did drag on. I expect this was intentional from BS, and I disagree with it. He has mentioned before (when writing Wheel of Time) that he will write those battles, the ones meant to be a slog for the PoV character, that he wants the reader to feel it as well. I did. I do not think that adds to it, merely subtracts. Regardless, I liked this section a lot, but I am also Adolins #1 fan

 

Sigzil. I also enjoyed this. I have not actually read TSM as I did not like the secret projects and stopped reading them before I got here, but I do know the spoilers. It was really cool to get more PoVs from him, get a handle on how thinks and feels, and see how decisive he can be. Only qualm here was this was also where El and Moash were, and they were basically nothing in this book.

 

Cons:
Most everything in the Spiritual Realm, frankly. I enjoyed the *lore* of it all. Tanavasts flashbacks, even getting fuller details on the founding of the Heralds, etc. I enjoyed the lore. Everything else felt rehashed, but not in a satisfying way how it did with Kaladins sections.
I, for the most part, did not mind Rlain and Renarin, but I also find them to be pretty shallow characters, and this didn't do much to deepen them for me. But I had to keep reading over and over how no one really gets them, except each other. It's nice, and I'm happy to see some real gay stuff on screen, but it was too overly drawn out.

Shallan I feel is the inverse of Kaladin, where I enjoyed his hammering home the things he's learned, here I felt it was largely uninteresting. I am very mixed on Shallan as a whole, where I really, really enjoyed her in OB and RoW, but this felt like more of that, but to a less satisfying degree. This might moreso be about how I find the Roshar Ghostbloods deeply uninteresting, and while they were a large part of Shallans stuff in OB and RoW, I found her development there to be doing the heavy lifting. I'll see how I feel about this after a reread.

Navani. there really isn't even much to say here. she didn't do much, or experience much, or have many PoV's, which I found pretty disappointing as she came storming into RoW as my favourite PoV in that book. BS does a really good job of letting us sit in her head and how she thinks and I found it deeply satisfying, and we just basically didn't get that in this book. No fault of hers

Dalinar... this one might need to stew a little longer, like Shallan. I really enjoy Dalinar, but I also don't think he is that good a person, and it was nice to see him confronted with that (and I don't just mean the wife-murdering while he was essentially drunk on an Unmade. I mean the stuff he does after) so I was a little disappointed he seemingly got a get out of jail free card. I browse these forums every once in awhile, so I was aware of Child Champion theory, and it seemed incredibly likely to me, so that wasn't a surprise. I guess I just wanted Dalinar to lose, because while I really enjoy the character, I do not like the man. Ah well. I will miss him from SA series though. He had really strong PoVs. His time in the spiritual realm with Navani was interesting for lore reasons, but also generally boring as well.

 

Overall, I liked the book. Nothing really bumped me overly much, but it feels like a step down from RoW. 

A reread will probably change some opinions, and solidify how I feel about a lot of other things I haven't mentioned here, which I'm doing now, by audiobook.

 

Edited December 11, 2024 by Arceoxys

[Kairos]

 

By character 

 

Dalinar: 

Finally. I really wanted to see the Oathpact and the Recreance, so that was solid at last. I mean, they were both a little weaker than I expected, but still, answers at last. 

The SR overall was a bit weaker than I expected, and I was kind of annoyed at the Stormfather (again), but I also felt like Dalinar was pushing him more than he should have based on his arc. I wasn’t upset by the ending, it felt fitting, but I agree that Gav felt forced. (Also, did Lift just become responsible for Retribution? I think technically yes). 

 

Navani: …was also there. For a Bondsmith, she really doesn’t do much. I also still have no idea where the Sibling came from. 

 

Shallan: Felt like her last couple of chapters were finally payoff for growth, which was nice from someone I thought had initially fixed her problems in WoR and have been annoyed by ever since. 

 

That said, her Circle was kind of pointless. They do the one Ghostblood raid, and then…nothing. Where are all the Lightweavers in the confrontations? Minimal Stormlight, could have been some amazing opportunities for battlefield tactics. 

 

Also, 90% of her poking around in the SR was pointless. What even was the Ghostblood plan? For a secret society that’s supposed to be competent, they’re really just running around doing the secret handshake. 

 

Renarin: Gah. He continues to frustrate me. I was like, great, autistic character with glasses who has to actually stay on the sidelines of battle, we can get a fun guy in the chair vibe. I already disliked trying to stick him with Bridge Four, but this just got worse. I dislike him more every book, and I was actively dreading his chapters. 

 

Rlain: Singer spy? Seems like a perfect fit for the Lightweavers, wait, what? Nope, he’s got the same spren as Renarin, even down to being corrupted. And of course they’re hanging out together, where their abilities are duplicative. I liked Rlain in WoK and WoR, it felt like a solid arc, but I cannot stand him now. 

 

 

Adolin: finally the good parts. I really enjoyed his arc, seeing him interact with everyone. Honestly, my only complaint was not trusting that Maya would return, and the way she did was amazing. 

 

 

Kaladin: I enjoyed this. His growth finally has stabilized, and we got to see someone move past their trauma while addressing it and acknowledging it‘s still an issue, but they can deal with it. That said, the Wind came out of nowhere. 

 

Szeth: Mollie made me so sad. Honestly, saddest part of Cosmere for me. And then having a little stuffed sheep from her wool was heartbreaking, I’m so glad nothing bad happened to it. Getting to see Szeth in this was a treat, and he finally got some growth he deserved. 

 

Jasnah: Not many chapters, but she finally had to learn a hard lesson about utilitarianism that I feel should have come before her oaths. Really, I still don’t know how she swore “Journey before Destination”.

Excited for her in the back half. 

 

 

Venli: bleh. Was really hoping for cool reveal, and Odium’s shardpool was…not it. Would have settled for more Singer Radiants, but also nope. Also, her viewpoint is just kind of boring. 

 

Sigzil: Okay, fair plotline. Wanted more diverse radiant orders in combat, but oh well. Really felt like a prequel to Sunlit Man, rather than this happening first. Everything just revolved around getting him where he needed to go later. 

 

 

Overall: 

 

BAM was built up so much, and then was a non-issue Mcguffin. 

 

Wind, Stone - felt like came out of nowhere without foreshadowing. Would have been better if Stormfather had just been in those places with some growth. 

 

Oathpact - I still don’t quite get how it works, but not supposed to I assume. Would have been nice to learn more Realmatics. 

 

Nightwatcher - continues to just be AWOL. I was really hoping she would turn up and make another Bondsmith. Or at least some more of her boons do weird stuff. 

 

Dustbringers - were also absent. Please just a few, I want my favorite order to show up for once. 

 

Taln- loved his very brief scene, but why oh why was so much offscreen. 

 

 

 

[The Sovereign]

3 hours ago, The Sovereign said:

-Stormseat was sitting on top of a huge pile of Duralumin? "Not Aluminum but something greater".

I've been thinking about this more; I suspect Rayse set up the Duralumin around his Perpendicularity to hide it from Honor and Cultivation. When the Honor-Odium clash shattered the plains some gaps were made in the Duralumin which allowed the Chasmfiends and later the Listeners to hear the Tones coming from it and find it.

[PhantomSparty]

I loved it. I love Sanderson's writings because I get lost in the pages. I loved the set up and I loved the payoff.

I came here expecting others who loved the book. Disappointed to find so much criticism of a story I loved. This is my first time here and this feels like the gatekeeping Brandon warned about in his keynote address. 

I understand this is a reactions thread and I don't mean to deny anyone's opinion as they are valid. I just don't know where else to go where I can just be happy to have experienced this story.

[alder24]

I’m speechless. I’ve finished WaT an hour or two ago and I’m in shock and my mind is a mess, incapable of fully grasping what I have just read. It was beautiful, it was grand, it was amazing, it was radiant. So much happened, so many things were revealed, everything changed and I loved every single moment of this book. I can’t count the number of times I screamed with excitement while reading it. 

Seeing so many theories being fulfilled in one way or another was so satisfying. Chana was Shallan’s mother, I believed in this one, it happened, it was great. Ishar was a faker, just not a Stormfaker, an Unmade/Voice-faker and it was great to read. Gavinor was the champion (which was kind of obvious in this book) and while I wasn’t a fan of this theory, I’m fully satisfied with its execution. Kaladin in the end became a Herald, with Syl at his side - thankfully no tortues included. And so many Death Rattles were fulfilled, with chapters even being named after them, which was so good.

Personally, I’ve enjoyed the Shinovar and Adolin’s plotlines the most. It was so good and fun to see Kaladin, Szeth, Syl, Nightblood and even Nale and Aux interact together and change during this "mostly" peaceful field trip across grassy land. Szeth’s flashbacks were very interesting and I couldn’t stop comparing Neturo to Lirin and how he reacted to his son becoming a killer in Kal’s flashbacks. Szeth’s fights with Honorbearers were stunning, especially the first one with Taln’s Honorblade bearer was my favorite in the whole book and Nightblood not only didn’t disappoint, he also grew, changed, and became in control, which was amazing - I love Nightblood sooo muuuch.  And I couldn’t be more happier reading about Kal and Syl dancing together on the Wind - that was something I’ve longed for since I started reading SA, a moment of pure joy and happiness for Kaladin who suffered too much. I can’t wait to see the fanarts of this moment. 

Adolin in Azimir on the other hand gave me something which I have missed since WoR - a non-invested individual fighting against invested individuals with consequences and stakes. Old-schooled Shardbearer fighting for his life with no Stormlight or healing, against enemies that were an actual threat to him, not just an obstacle. It was good to have it back, with lots of Maya and lots of great moments. Taln… “for the broken” was perfect - another moment I need to see fanarts right now.

I’m so excited for what the future of Cosmere will bring. Retribution has come, Cultivation fled, Shards were caught with their pants down, Roshar is broken more than ever, Radiants are basically non-functional outside of the Tower, which is isolated now and the Blackthorn will return. Everything changed and the time dilation is a brilliant way of Connecting Roshar’s plotline with the future of Cosmere, especially Mistborn Era 3 and 4. I really can’t wait for more, but I can’t even process every information received from WaT, so I shouldn’t be that impatient. I’ll need to reread WaT soon to sort everything out.

And it was surprisingly satisfying to see Hoid being vaporized. Huh, no idea why, it just felt right and good, deserved even…

[Forged Herald]

2 minutes ago, PhantomSparty said:

I loved it. I love Sanderson's writings because I get lost in the pages. I loved the set up and I loved the payoff.

I came here expecting others who loved the book. Disappointed to find so much criticism of a story I loved. This is my first time here and this feels like the gatekeeping Brandon warned about in his keynote address. 

I understand this is a reactions thread and I don't mean to deny anyone's opinion as they are valid. I just don't know where else to go where I can just be happy to have experienced this story.

People nitpick a lot in the reviews (for many a completely positive review feels incomplete). On the other hand there ARE many aspects of the book that could be improved. But even the most nitpicking people are giving it grades above 4.5/5 so we ALL share your feeling of getting lost (how else would be be done already).

 

Don't hang yourself to much on the reviews and look at the theories (the fun part imo).

 

And Welcome

[+robardin he/him]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I’m speechless. I’ve finished WaT an hour or two ago and I’m in shock and my mind is a mess, incapable of fully grasping what I have just read. It was beautiful, it was grand, it was amazing, it was radiant. So much happened, so many things were revealed, everything changed and I loved every single moment of this book. I can’t count the number of times I screamed with excitement while reading it. 

Seeing so many theories being fulfilled in one way or another was so satisfying.  ...

I’m so excited for what the future of Cosmere will bring. ...

Everything changed and the time dilation is a brilliant way of Connecting Roshar’s plotline with the future of Cosmere, especially Mistborn Era 3 and 4. I really can’t wait for more, but I can’t even process every information received from WaT, so I shouldn’t be that impatient. I’ll need to reread WaT soon to sort everything out.

And it was surprisingly satisfying to see Hoid being vaporized. Huh, no idea why, it just felt right and good, deserved even…

Agree with everything you wrote, even the last part, LOL.

It did raise a question in my mind though, which is: if he had this literal backup plan for handling a vaporization at the hands of a Shard ("I'll regenerate from a chunk of myself I left on Scadrial"), then why was he so afraid of being discovered on Roshar by Rayse/Odium earlier when talking to Dalinar in WoR, when he says that "if [Odium] finds me, then I become nothing -- a soul shredded and broken into pieces that cannot be reassembled"?

Or did he only devise this backup with Ulaam since that chat with Dalinar? I don't think so; somehow he feared being "shredded" at a deeper level by Rayse, Splintered if you will, but knowing/hoping that Taravangian/Retribution would "vaporize" him "only physically".

[Ookla she/her]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

Agree with everything you wrote, even the last part, LOL.

It did raise a question in my mind though, which is: if he had this literal backup plan for handling a vaporization at the hands of a Shard ("I'll regenerate from a chunk of myself I left on Scadrial"), then why was he so afraid of being discovered on Roshar by Rayse/Odium earlier when talking to Dalinar in WoR, when he says that "if [Odium] finds me, then I become nothing -- a soul shredded and broken into pieces that cannot be reassembled"?

Or did he only devise this backup with Ulaam since that chat with Dalinar? I don't think so; somehow he feared being "shredded" at a deeper level by Rayse, Splintered if you will, but knowing/hoping that Taravangian/Retribution would "vaporize" him "only physically".

I think part of it was that he carried a Dawnshard? Maybe the powers would have interacted weird and that's what would have gotten him, which is why he had to give it to Sigzil. But I don't know, I'm no Cosmere expert. I just like reading the books.

My full-book reaction: I like this book! There were quite a few jump-up-and-down moments for me, but mostly I'm just happy that the ending was satisfying--Dalinar made the best choice possible in the end, Kaladin swore his 5th Ideal and is finally becoming emotionally healthy, Szeth is on a path to growth, Adolin gets to keep working with the not-so-deadeye spren, Shallan is stuck in Shadesmar, but has access to the resources she needs to keep in contact with Adolin and explore the Cosmere, plus she's most probably pregnant, which means we get to see cool stuff with her kid later on! (Can you tell that's the part I'm most excited about?)

Wind and Truth ended such that I think I'll be okay waiting however many years for the second arc to begin, and were something crazy to happen and Brandon never got a chance to write the second arc, I still think I'd be okay--there's enough tied off that there's no cliffhangers or loose ends I'm stressed about, but enough left open that I could imagine the rest of the Cosmere's story on my own if I wanted/needed to.

Also, I'm not one for nitpicking, and when I am it's usually typos (there are a few of those). I'm just happy to have the story! Are there things that could probably have been done better? Of course, that's how life works. But in my opinion, Wind and Truth was done very well indeed, and now sits about on a level with Rhythm of War in my mind. (I'm not one to place RoW at the bottom of the SA tier-list; that would be Oathbringer for me.)

[Lacra Maldita]

What a masterful way to end Stormlight arc 1. It's been quite a ride Wind and Truth. Szeth and Kaladin's storyline has been my favorite. Their journey through the temples of Shinovar has been mystical. Adolin's storyline in Azimir has been spectacular. And Dalinar and Navani's journey through the Spirit Realm is a tremendous addition to the story of Roshar and the Cosmere.

The Stormlight Archive is consolidated as a masterpiece of epic fantasy literature. Thanks a lot Sanderson

PS: Long live King Kaladin and Queen Syl

[Soccorro]

9 hours ago, PhantomSparty said:

I just don't know where else to go where I can just be happy to have experienced this story.

Reddit, of course. Every opinion apart from “this is the best thing ever” is downvoted into oblivion and I saw a few people reporting that they received threats for criticising the book

[Aon Tia she/her]

I absolutely loved this book! The Ending!! What has Dalinar done!! It is absolutely insane and absolutely brilliant at the same time!! He even managed to outwit the Wit! He in a very Dalinar like fashion, absolutely refused to play by the rules of Taravangian's, Tanavast's and Wit's game! He broke the game, he broke the whole board. 

Taravangian is now RETRIBUTION, Night of Sorrows! it really is the Everstorm now! no highstorms, no stormlight, no Radiants (outside of Urithiru!) almost the whole of the world under T's grip and fully dependent on him for warlight for even basic survival! Bet Fen regrets making that treaty with him now. 

Everything that we know about Roshar has changed, I have no Idea how things will progress moving forward and I can not imagine a better mid-way ending for Stormlight Archive. 

Dalinar: I have loved his journey of self discovery throughout books 1-5. His acceptance of his flaws and desire to do better! 

I also am intrigued by the comment that "He is spoken for by another". By God Beyond? Adonalsium?

Taravangian getting some botched up half way simulacrum of Dalinar was frustrating but he is not Dalinar Kholin and T will soon realise that. I know a lot of people complain that it is not the same as Dalinar becoming the Champion but I think that will precisely be the point. 

And Frankly, if after all the self discovery, Actual Dalinar would have gone back to becoming tarvangians Dark Puppet, I would have been far more disappointed. 

Kaladin: I loved his whole story and where it led him to. Obviously, Kaladin ascending was most talked of followed by him becoming a herald. 

Nonetheless, I would love to see him interacting with OG heralds and teaching them a thing or two. I think Ishar, Nale and other heralds will see what this common "dark-eyed" (as in non-noble) herald is made of. Kaladin and Taln will be besties and deadly duo! 

I would love to see B4, Adolin and Szeth reactions when Herald Kaladin returns. Taravangian has no idea what is coming his way.  

Shallan's mother = Chana was seriously taken up after SA prologue release, I remember I was absolutely mind blown at the possibility at the time and I know that a huge part of Brandon's Fandom will be equally shocked and amazed because not everyone analyses these books as much as some of us do here on 17th Shard. She is stranded in Shadesmaar and pregnant and essentially in a long distance relationship with Adolin! But I expect her to have learned a lot more about the wider cosmere in arc 2. 

Adolin and his band of unoathed spren, it was amazing. He is not a Radiant but something new and i can not wait to see how Azir will progress moving forward.

Renarin and Rlain: absolutely loved their story and look forward to see where it moves further. 

Lift: Lift got the worlds best teacher! 

Navani and Sibling: I loved how she made dealing with the madness of the SR look so easy. She is in coma but I think her and sibling waking up might be how we kickstart arc 2. 

Taravangian: I really hate this guy, there really is no level to which he will not stoop in order to win and in this book he is proven that he is a big humbug, all his earlier claims of wanting good of people were lies, the only thing he cares about is power, control and proving himself right. 

I am not a fan of Gavinor being the Champion, I have never been but I am glad that it was just a minor tool point to get Dalinar to really do something drastic and break the game entirely. I can forgive Brandon this one thing. 

I did expected a little more out of SR but I think it is only forst time we have gone there and we never strayed out of Honor's power, I bet there is a lot more to it to what we have been shown in this book. 

Taravangian is RETRIBUTION, others shard can no longer ignore him, and has been said by Sazed in epigraphs, 1 shard is already infinite so holding more than one does not necessarily mean that he has more power, may be to some extent but the bindings of both the intents of the power and the internal tussle will limit him far more. 

 

Edited December 12, 2024 by Aon Tia

[Vanya Taneva]

Loved the book. I was not expecting all of the twists or the reveals which made them better form me.

My standout character was Szeth. He was always interesting but really became a favorite in this book. Best flashbacks in the books maybe. I can't wait to see what he does next. It warms my heart that he got married. I cried the most at his chapters I think, he was just so moving. Really curious about his wife, his mental state and him finding the dissenters.

Overall pretty much all the characters got satisfying endings. And how about that end it really is the end of an era - without storms or Stormlight..

Kaladin and Adolin had amazing journeys. Lots of crying here too. Initially I did not want for Kaladin to die but the way it was written did not feel sad, just a new beginning.

I love that Adolin found his own worth beyond everyone else's expectations. It is very good that now he has Maya by his side because I feel she understands him the best. We will see how he reunites with Shalaln and their baby. Will it be really 10 years before they see each other. She will have to be even more inventive to survive and go back. Loved her revelations in the book and her getting a little bit better. Also, really happy that finally she was able to contact Kelsier. I am curious what will be their relationship.

The trip through the Spiritual realm was very informative. I jumped when I saw the viewpoint of Honor. I have to say that Honor and Cultivation were a little underwhelming. I guess I was imagining that they were better people, more willing to sacrifice. And at the end Cultivation just ran. But this is now a theme in the Cosmere that the vessels are not perfect, or perfect for the powers. Or as people are saying she has deeper plans.

I expected Dalinar to die but the way he did and his choice was inspired. I did not like the Gavinor champion choice but we will see what he does in the future. He is a man without childhood, ould be interesting.

The way Jasnah was confronted to reevaluate her stances was also very good. I hate to see her so sad though.

Taravangian was very interesting as usual. I am glad he was not killed permanently. We will see how the new power will change him. I guess it will not be for the better. The best parts for me were first when he destroyed his city and when he revealed that he had saved the people. Such a contradiction.

Overall a great end for the first arc. I look forward to the next one. This is one of my first posts here. Greetings from Bulgaria, where Sanderson is a big hit, likely the most read fantasy author now.

Edited December 12, 2024 by Vanya Taneva

[frozndevl]

Overall, I really like the book. I loved how they did the 5th ideal right after I thought it wasn't going to happen. Adolin is the best, and I loved his arc.

I thought having Moash show up again made him more of a joke, but establishing El as a back five antagonist will be great. I'll probably have more thoughts, but also don't have to riot because BS didn't do something to Kaladin.

[Tahva4815]

The more I've let the book sit with me the more I think (while the experience of reading it was still enjoyable) I think Brandon Sanderson lost the plot after Oathbringer.

I had issues with Rhythm of War, but I felt the character work with Kaladin/Shallan specifically carried that book, unfortunately the same could not be said here. I did not feel any of the character arcs in this book really landed as they were meant to. From a prose standpoint, this might be the worst written book in the Stormlight Archive. I thought hard about it this morning and I've struggled to come up with a sequence that has anything on the best written scenes in previous books. Part of the problem I think is that fundamentally pretty much all of the main characters had already emotionally peaked, I think Shallan especially could've benefitted from changing around when she discovered certain information. The biggest twist of the "her mom is a herald" thing isn't even that her Mom is Chanarach, it's that SHALLAN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WAR STARTING, but that didn't seem to affect her at all in this book, and the other major characters don't discover any of this.

The heralds so easily coming back together at the end also just felt ridiculous. I think it would've been a lot better to structure this book somehow around gathering the heralds to explicitly re-form the Oathpact, versus characters who had openly wanted nothing to do with this for centuries, all just up and deciding "nah one more ride" pretty much out of nowhere. 

Dalinar's confrontation with Odium in this book simply did not have the weight to it that it did back in Oathbringer. I think Dalinar should have either fully ascended to Honor in Oathbringer, or he should have died in Oathbringer. He pretty much arced out and I simply did not really buy whatever his character arc was even meant to be in this book. Knowing Sanderson originally planned for the Dalinar flashbacks to be in this book, part of me wonders if that would've been a lot better, because it was so obvious once he got through his problems in Oathbringer that he really had nowhere left to go as a character.

Adolin's plotline, while it seems many others loved it, to me was the biggest waste of pages in the book. Adolin is another character who, while likable, simply is not complex enough to carry that many pages of story. There's only so many times I can read him being upset with Dalinar before I grew tired of it. His actual role in helping the Deadeyes, etc, is interesting, but for most of the book he's not even with Maya, which is the most interesting relationship he has. If anything his entire storyline should have been about going and rallying more Deadeyes to his cause, versus Maya doing it largely offscreen. I did not care about the Azish Emperor or other extremely stock characters who all love Adolin because he's so honorable and awesome, simply bad writing.

I love these books, I love this universe, and more than anything I love these characters, but ultimately this book (and to some extent Book 4) just feel like steps down from the first three books. I think the Fused/Regals also are extremely boring villains, and what was originally presented as a fascinating war where both sides had very legitimate points, kinda fell apart once all of the "good" Parshendi like Venli, Rabonial, choose the Human side, and we're left with just generic bad guys on the Singer side. I think it would've done the series a lot of good for Venli and Rlain to stay on the "bad" side to keep it interesting. 

Stakes also continue to be a problem, at no point did I believe that any of our main players would die, largely because they were all so spread out that I knew Adolin isn't going to die without Shallan being around for example.

In the end, I think the the first three books are stone cold classics of the genre, but the wider the scope got and the more the larger narrative revealed itself, the more Brandon lost the plot. Gavinor is not a character I care enough about for the ultimate showdown to be satisfying whatsoever. I would've vastly preferred that he literally be a baby (the suckling child) and Dalinar is asked to kill this baby in cold blood. The ham fisted attempts to justify teenage Gavinor didn't work at all for me.

In the grand scope of the first arc, many many things originally thought to be important simply did not matter at all. The Sons of Honor were totally ineffective and pointless. The Ghostbloods were entirely talk, I honestly don't understand their purpose or role in this story at all. Kelsier being revealed to be their leader was a toothless reveal since it renders them essentially good guys. There's a way in which it would've been a cool reveal if Kelsier (like the heralds) had been corrupted over time or grown to be a darker character, but from The Lost Metal he looks to be the same Kelsier as always, and its hard to understand what the Ghostbloods were really doing at all on Roshar or why. 

Kaladin killing Shallan's brother never amounted to anything, nor did Adolin killing Sadeas. Moash continues to be a "one scene a book" character, which is kinda baffling for someone who was so important in the first two books. RoW hyped up El as this huge thing for this book, but then he did absolutely nothing at all. Renarin had the chance to be interesting by being bonded to a "bad" spren, but the Sja-Anat spren have also been whitewashed. For all of the bluster, releasing Bo-Ado-Mishram didn't appear to do literally anything. 

I think Books 1-3 are absolute classics, but I was disappointed in book 4, and I think book 5 only furthered my view that Sanderson simply bit off more than he could chew, and at this point something that I always loved about Sanderson, which was how his conclusions were always setup by previous events, seems to have fallen by the wayside. I don't think there was anything that setup the way the Oathpact was re-established so easily, and how they were able to avoid the torture this time, which I personally thought was ridiculous. It would be far better writing if they have to go through it again. This book, coupled with The Lost Metal, has me worried about the future of the cosmere books. I won't stop reading these, because they are fun reads and I like the characters and world enough, but the idea that Stormlight can be one of the all-time series has been very much shaken. Waiting another decade for the next book, and likely 20-30 years for the ultimate resolution....I simply don't see how this story has enough juice or is deep enough to justify me waiting that long. I will wait, of course, but I no longer have faith Sanderson knows what he's doing. I think his company is too big, he publishes too many books, and he really needs to take a step back and focus on making the stories REALLY GOOD. 

[justjump]

On 12/9/2024 at 9:44 PM, neosporin said:

Just who is Nohodon exactly? He has to be something more than just a previous King. After reading the epigraphs again, I realized Dalinar did the exact same thing as Nohodon. He gave it up and walked away.

"First, I dared not tell them this dusty traveler with whom they shared a meal was in fact that very king they had heard of. The second was that I did not explain that very king had abdicated his throne and walked away from his kingdom."

 "I do not have answers, and there will always be some who denounce me for this decision I made. But let me teach a truth here that is often misunderstood: sometimes, it is not weakness, but strength, to stand up and walk away."

 "May you have the courage someday to walk away. And the wisdom to recognize that day when it arrives."

It makes me wonder if he's actually another shard or something. Maybe it has to do with the 4th moon that hit Roshar? The final scenes with him and Dalinar have to be proof of him being something more than just Dalinar's mind manifesting him. 

It's touching to see how important The Way of Kings was to Dalinar. I guess in the end there words and choices he needed were in the book after all.

He is Adonalsium. He is taking a vacation.

[Kfish]

Just thinking: Could there have been a better answer to the Odium problem if Wit had given his dawnshard to Dalinar before the final challenge? Everything else going the same....I feel like having a Dawnshard would enable him to defeat Odium without mass destruction. 

[Fallen_Ash]

Just gonna get all my thoughts out here because I can't stop thinking about this book. (Note that I really never read forums so if something was a surprise to me that was already common knowledge in the fandom, that's why.)

• I'm mad that I didn't figure out Felt was a Ghostblood! He's from Era 1 Mistborn of course he's a Kelsier fanboy! However, re: Ghostbloods in general, I'm tired of being teased. With this series and MB Era 2, we keep getting all these hints about what the Ghostbloods are up to with no actual answers. They're just this shady force that are for some reason causing obstacles for our heroes. Like Felt captured Kalak and we never find out why. Kalak just returns to the Oathpact with everyone else. 
• I was anticipating and looking forward to a lore-heavy book where we got some answers, so I really enjoyed the SR and Shinover parts. I kind of sped through the Adolin and Sigzil parts because one, they were so sad, and two, they didn't add a lot of new information to the story. I still enjoyed them, particularly Adolin working with Yanagawn and May and seeing Sigzil take on the leadership role we witnessed in TSM. I knew Sigzil would give up Vienta, but how it happened was heartbreaking. I know she's mad, but I thought it was so brave. He gave up everything to save her life. 
• I've been looking forward to more deadeyes being healed, so that was great as well. 
• I didn't know that readers had already figured out that Chana was Shallan's mom, so that blew my mind. I was thinking before this book that there couldn't possibly be any more secrets for Shallan to uncover, and I'm glad I was wrong. What does being the child of an immortal invested entity mean for Shallan and her brothers? But the most exciting part of that reveal was, of course, the official confirmation that TALN NEVER BROKE. 
• Speaking of Taln, absolutely loved his moment. It brought me all the way back to the book 1 prelude, where the first thing you learn about him is that he'd pick impossible fights that he would usually win, and usually die in the process. I'm even more stoked to read his POV and find out why and how he tried to kill Cultivation. 
• I've been looking forward to Szeth's backstory for years, and it did not disappoint. The little lamb toy destroyed me. My favorite part of the Szeth/Kaladin story though, other than Szeth finally realizing what we all know, that Kaladin really is as good as he seems, was Szeth standing up to Nale. "What rules did I violate, Nin-son-God?" I may be in the minority, but I was so touched that Szeth's dad didn't just abandon him to the monastery, but was a constant presence throughout his childhood. 
• I also squealed over Rlain and Renarin. 
• Lift is one of my favorite characters, and while I wish she had more screentime in these first five, I'm excited to see her growth. I love that she was able to save Vasher precisely because she wasn't off doing other important things. I hope he only corrupts her in fun ways, not sad ways. 
• I didn't hate the Jasnah/Fen part. Fen has already been on the receiving end of Alethi skullduggery and so was already primed to be wary of the partnership, as much as she claims to trust the coalition. Plus it's good for Jasnah's character development to lose for once. I like when characters are forced to confront their hypocrisy. It will give her nuance in the back five. I know people expected Jasnah to perform better, but Taravangian knows her every weakness as both a man and a god, so she brought a knife to a gun fight. 
• The ending: as divisive as it is, I loved it. Regardless of the outcome of the original contract, Odium would win. Even if Dalinar won, all Odium would lose is time. He never would have agreed to something where he could possibly be disadvantaged, so the only way for Team Free Will to win was not to play. Killing Gavinor would both prove Taravangian right (even though he's a hypocrite re: Kharbranth) and put the humans right where he wants them. Dalinar didn't give in to Taravangian's manipulation, didn't give him the satisfaction of Dalinar under his control, and didn't pass the buck for dealing with Odium down the road. Odium's downfall starts today, not in a thousand years. And what does Retribution really have? An army of slaves going insane and possibly defecting to the listeners, who hold the most important place in Roshar? Thaylena, which only came by force and so is likely to rebel? The Iriali left so he doesn't have them. Herdaz is up in the air. He removed his strongest player, Kharbranth, from the game. Based on his comment dismissing the Reshi Isles, and the king joining the coalition, I hope they come into play in the back five. That leaves him with Jah Kaved, Alethkar, some of the former Azish empire, and Shinovar. That's daunting, but not overwhelming. PLUS his actions are locked by the conflicting Shards AND now the other Shards are taking notice. He doesn't have 1,000 years to quietly plan his assault on the cosmere. I think he is in a worse position than he would have been in if Dalinar had won. Also, Kaladin didn't die, and gets to protect and help people nonviolently, which is literally the best possible outcome for him. I was prepared for him to die so this is definitely a step up!
• The Hoid POV at the very end gave us the most concrete timeline we've received so far: MB Era 2 takes place immediately after SA 5. I wonder if the trauma of losing Roshar, being disintegrated, and getting dumped informed his characterization in those books. 

Overall, I'm pumped to see what comes next. I'm excited to learn more about the cosmere things that have been teased, like the fourth moon and what's up with the Iriali. There's a lot of good stuff coming. 

My one complaint, however (other than the Ghostblood stuff), is that I have never been invested in Adolin and Shallan as a couple. I was trying to figure out why, and at first I thought it was because they're not passionate about each other, but I don't think that's it. What they lack is INTIMACY. They basically live parallel lives and come together once in a while to say "I love you" and have sex. Even when they are on the same mission, like in RoW, they hardly interact. Instead of helping Adolin with the trial, Shallan is focused on Ghostblood business. It's great that they say they support each other no matter what, but I rarely feel like it's shown. When we got the first POV of Adolin in Azir, I was shocked he hadn't even thought to himself "Maybe I should try to find Shallan and say goodbye!" Once in a while they'll stop to think "I sure love my spouse," but if they weren't married very little would actually change. Compare them to Kaladin and Syl, who are shown having pretty deep discussions and growing alongside each other. Adolin and Shallan don't really go through things together, which I find weird. Also weird was how much time was given in the book to talking about Shallan rejecting Kaladin (which she didn't do because he never even made a move or presented himself as an option). At this point, the proper amount of attention that should be given to that whole plot point is none. It's weird to have a little speech from Kaladin about how they wouldn't have worked, and it's weird to have Shallan thinking about Kaladin while watching her wedding. Maybe it's Brandon's clumsy way of trying to crush Shalladin once and for all, but it feels very out of place and honestly does the opposite. I know "show not tell" is trite, but this relationship needed more showing. Romance is never Brandon's strong suit, but compared to Vin and Elend, Dalinar and Navani, and even Siri and Susebron and Kaladin and Syl, this relationship feels incredibly underdeveloped. 

[+robardin he/him]

3 minutes ago, Fallen_Ash said:

I'm mad that I didn't figure out Felt was a Ghostblood! He's from Era 1 Mistborn of course he's a Kelsier fanboy!

... Felt captured Kalak and we never find out why. Kalak just returns to the Oathpact with everyone else. 

... I have never been invested in Adolin and Shallan as a couple. I was trying to figure out why, and at first I thought it was because they're not passionate about each other, but I don't think that's it. What they lack is INTIMACY. ... Romance is never Brandon's strong suit, but compared to Vin and Elend, Dalinar and Navani, and even Siri and Susebron and Kaladin and Syl, this relationship feels incredibly underdeveloped. 

Haha, well, it still surprised me because the first time we saw Felt, he was a spy for House Venture that Elend had "borrowed" from his father, and who discovered Kell's crew's hideout (Clubs' workshop) for what it was, and could easily have betrayed them to the Steel Ministry and the wrath of the Inquisitors but for Elend telling him not to.

He continued doing work for Elend after the fall of TLR, so his surviving the Catacendre wasn't that big of a surprise once we also saw that Demoux was also nosing around Roshar with other worldhoppers. But I didn't think a GB agent would have been on Roshar for so long already, in steady service to House Kholin, and married to boot.

And technically he may not "be" a Ghostblood. He emphatically rejected the notion that he reported to Iyatil, after all. More like, Friend of Kelsier?

As for what Felt (or Kelsier) did with or got out of Kalak from the time he was captured to to when he was summoned to his Honorblade at the end of WaT, I'm guessing he spilled a lot of details about the nature of the Oathpact and so on. What value that has to the Ghostbloods, I'm not sure.

I get what you're saying about Adolin and Shallan, but it's also worth noting (because Brandon is not great at writing romance/intimate stuff, or does it with a very light "vaseline on the lens" type of touch) that a lot of their deeper bonding has been mentioned as having happened off-screen. And the initial moments of falling in love in WoR, i thought were done pretty well.