Wind and Truth Full Book Reactions (Cosmere Edition)

[hagmania]

“…the singers had won—at long last—one of the Desolations.”

I loved this line. It is such a testament to Sanderson’s mastery of worldbuilding and stage setting. In one phrase it flips the perspective of the Stormlight Archive from present story to cosmic timeline. I love the idea that this is just another Desolation in the history of Roshar that brings the promise of the journey ahead.

—

This was only my second full readthrough of 1-4, and it struck me as fascinating the very first time we see a Thunderclast in The Battle of Thaylen City, that “OHHHHH oh snap we get to see one of the very Desolations everyone has written so much about in the past.” Given how ingrained into modern Roshar BS made books and historians, and especially on the theme of how those very historians would write of this Desolation for readers in the far future, I enjoyed WaT so much.

Given some of the reaction to Azimir, I did an introspection and still think it is some of my favorite fantasy battle fiction I have read. The objectives for both sides were clear, the stakes were appropriate, and the odds of victory were apparent from the start, and the battlefield was storming cool! My true appreciation for these chapters came as I viewed it through the lens of an epic story that occurred during this Desolation, and not just a side plot in this current book.

I totally appreciate the opinion by dissenters that it may not add to the book; I just find it adds so much to the world, which is BS’s strength. The books are the world and the world is the book series. I was engrossed by the struggle in holding Azir. So much about that battle will be mythologized in the future by not just the Azish, but all of Rosharan humanity.

Anyhow, my book rankings for the series are all 5/5 when rounded.

5.0/5.0 WoR

4.9/5.0 WoK, OB, WaT

4.8/5.0 RoW

[+robardin he/him]

8 hours ago, Soccorro said:

Dalinar met this Blackthorn in SP earlier, I believe. I think real Dalinar died and went to beyond. As for Blackthorn, I don’t understand what it is. He will either serve as evil Odium’s puppet or will have character development and will become more like old Dalinar. This shadow is like young Dalinar because people of Roshar including his sons hate him, right? What if after the time skip people will view Dalinar differently, as someone who sacrificed his life for them and wrote Oathbringer. Will Cognitive Shadow change too?

I don’t know how to combine 2 replies into 1!

The Blackthorn that Retribution discovers at the end of WaT is a kind of "spren of the Blackthorn", built around all the terrifying images of his fearsome and bloody reputation in the wars of his youth (remember how Queen Fen, the Azish, and even the Mink speak of him when first meeting him).

Combined with the extra Investiture and Identity that Dalinar as Bondsmith imparted to the vision-version of himself at The Rift, when he was in Peak Blackthorn mode you might say, full of the Thrill, when he Connected to the vision-version and gave him his memories (similar to how Tanavast gave his memories to the Stormfather, but yet not "become" or "merged with" the Stormfather).

And so that Blackthorn-spren-come-alive knows what Dalinar knew (I suppose that includes the True History of Roshar), but rejects his choices. The version of Dalinar that Odium, and Taravangian, wanted to make use of all along.

Once a spren gains sentience and identity, though, I don't think the way people think about it will change it further. That's why so many spren, Radiant and Voidspren alike, have ancient forms: Syl mentions ancient spren who have "more than two genders because they weren't imagined (originally) by humans" (referring to singers having four). Also why Venli was irritated that Ulim the Voidspren looked human, because he dates back to Ashyn, or Alaswha, when humans first Connected to Odium for Surges.

And besides, Retribution will surely elevate this Blackthorn-spren to the level of an Unmade.

[Matt1297]

On 12/7/2024 at 12:46 AM, Kered said:

how tf is this return going to work. Even disregarding the new mind and soul split, it’s not making sense to me. The reason the fused tortured the heralds was because they knew it was the only way to get unbound. So is it just going to be Retribution trying to torture them? And if they’re not feeling the torture why in the hells would they return in the first place? If they do return doesn’t that just mean that Retri can just suck up the Spren? Ya know, the more I type this and think it through, the more confused I get lol. 
 

Its a reverse Desolation now.  They have to return, because Retribution won for the first time, and its up to the Heralds to defeat them.  Their role and the role of the Fused is reversed.

Edited December 10, 2024 by Matt1297

[Tahva4815]

Odium still getting some kind of Blackthorn despite Dalinar's sacrifice is so silly. Just bad plotting.

[logicless.bt]

I finished the book on Sunday, but I just had time to write it up now. It had it's ups and downs.

WaT

The good was good:
1. Atmosphere. Specifically, the apocalypse. This is something that made MB era 1 for me, and propelled my interest in the Cosmere as a whole. It's done again here extremely well -- Adolin and Sigzil's part especially. Adolin's slow loss of agency, culminating in losing his leg, really emphasized the overwhelming odds; especially given that there were next to no Fused for the most part and they were still struggling. Sigzil's side emphasized the perpetual darkness and lack of Stormlight, which both harkens back to MB and really hammers home the wide-scale oppression. It also has the added benefit of showing us what nature will be like for the majority of the world post-WaT.

2. Changing the scope of the story. This is my favorite part of Stormlight as a whole -- book one opens with several characters following mostly separate, remarkably small-scale conflicts (save Dalinar) and delves into the Alethi thoroughly. Book two brings those characters together, then a dramatic shift in ecology and politics occurs with the Everstorm. Book three explores the world and global politics in a much broader sense, and ends with a confrontation with a god. Book four involves a war with that god's magical minions, and ends with an all-or-nothing contest being declared. Book five launches off the intergalactic Cosmere! No more little hints and teases; now we get to actually fully explore what a fully connected Cosmere will be, and get more into Shardic politics.

3. Character endings. We knew characters had to shuffle out of the story, it was only a matter of how. Kaladin and Adolin did not die! Adolin's ending especially was great -- we saw him create a new form of power in the Cosmere (that persists through TSM) AND maintain a shining light in the permanent gloom, which is one of my favorite tropes. Kaladin becoming a Herald was unexpected for me, but I really like how it elevates him to mythic status without becoming a Shard. I wanted Shallan to become a worldhopping anti-Ghostblood, but I'm fairly satisfied with her lowkey taking over their role and communicating with (not working for!) Kelsier directly. Dalinar's death was necessary, and according to some people apparently overdue. Jasnah's one of my favorites, and she got a crippling loss that she desperately needed. Lift, Renarin, and Rlain are poised to take positions of huge importance in the back half, which I'm grateful for. Navani (another of my favs) has completed her arc, but she got put on ice which is better than death. I never cared much for Szeth or Venli, so I'm unmoved on their roles going forward.

The bad was really bad:
1. A lot of plot convenience/developments that felt unearned. This is my smallest complaint, but it still irks me. Ishar learning how to create visions rather than going to Braize (I never want to hear about visions again) came in a single sentence and resolved a problem that caused the entire plot of SA in the first place! Dalinar getting a happy ending (or close enough) while Odium still gets his perfect little Blackthorn cheapens both aspects -- not to mention, I don't care about the new Blackthorn! The reason the idea of a Blackthorn going from world to world starting war was so striking is because it involved the degradation and suffering of a character who was working to atone, NOT because Dalinar was a realllllly scary fighter. The introduction of the Old Gods who had simply never been relevant before and also are very loosely defined isn't incredibly impressive either -- the Stones singing to Venli is fine but the Wind bothered me. It was designed to "protect" -- what? How? From what? And how could Odium suppress it but not wholly destroy it? It was both too important and too unimportant at the same time. Not to mention Nightblood LEARNING THE SURGES just by chatting with Honorblades, and drawing from people not holding it... (learning restraint was appropriate imo).

2. For a series that prides itself on journey before destination, much of Wind and Truth depends entire on the destination. Especially the Spiritual Realm. Dalinar and Navani explore ancient lore, which is interesting in the short term but provides very little engaging action for their characters. They mostly observe and comment rather than acting with much agency. Same goes for Shallan -- the only thing that matters with her happens at the very end of the book. We cover a lot of emotional ground with everyone in the Spiritual Realm, but it has mostly been thoroughly trod except for Renarin and Rlain. It was interesting to read the first time through, but I expect to skip most of it on rereads unlike anything in WoK, WoR, or Oathbringer. Similarly, I felt like Kaladin and Szeth's journey was recycling the same four sentences over and over again, and the Honorbearers were not a particularly dynamic plot. Sigzil's part of the story had a distractingly thin plot, especially since El and Moash were underutilized. He had next to no internal conflict, since the scientist "conflict" had no antagonist and was quickly resolved.

3. I really dislike the idea of Shards growing and learning, but I'll reserve that for a full separate post.

4. A lot of things that happened will only matter in the future. We spent the entire book searching for BAM, but she vanishes the second she's released. Venli's whole plot leads up to the perpendicularity, but nothing comes of it (though the listeners remaining neutral is certainly some amount of payoff).

5. THE PROSE. I know this is often discussed and dismissed, and I've never weighed in on it before, but I could not ignore the subpar writing in this book. Almost all characters' voices sounded the same, and it was frustratingly modern. Even the Heralds were nearly undifferentiated from other characters. The first thing that an editor should have done was cut out every qualification -- SO MANY characters undermine their own words by saying "I'm *kind of* in charge", "I *sort of* learned how to do this", "I *literally* cannot answer that" etc. It came to a head when Ishar undermined his own dialogue with the word "basically." A supremely confident and ancient being should not qualify his language, and it's just bad writing in general. This is one specific trend I disliked, but the writing universally struggled. Non-dialogue writing was not better -- everything was described as simply and directly as possible, with uninteresting vocabulary and syntax.

This was the real kicker for me, and it's been growing worse over time. The only secret project I halfway enjoyed was Tress, because the fairy-tale vibes covered the simplistic prose. But Yumi/TSM/Frugal Wizard fell entirely flat. I honestly would have preferred no secret projects and a well-written and edited WaT. At this point I'm reading the Cosmere for the cosmere, not for the quality of the novels themselves. If WoK had the same quality problems, I would not have continued with the series. I'm hoping that SOMETHING changes in the decade before SA6.

[NattyBo]

One thing that’s bothering me from a Cosmere perspective - the events of this book are so cataclysmic, but we have at least 2 Mistborn books and probably others Im not thinking of that are chronologically after SL1-5.

in light of that it kinda makes 0 sense to me that Cosmere aware characters don’t bring up the events at all, even obliquely? It would be a huge topic of conversation for anyone who knows anything about the shards, no? 

[+mdross81 he/him]

As I continue to think about this book, one thing that impresses me is the way Brandon set up the circumstances under which there can be a move away from immutable Shardic intent.

One thing that’s been pretty consistent about the Shards is the idea that they are really locked into their intents, which over time increasingly constrains and puts pressure on their Vessels.

And we still have that going on, with Honor already starting to limit Taravangian in various ways that clearly annoy him.

But now we also have the possibility of Honor’s power itself growing and changing, which is new and exciting. I really hope we get some POV’s of Honor’s power at some point (as opposed to just internal monologue from the vessel telling us what the power wants).

[+Oltux72 he/him]

13 minutes ago, NattyBo said:

in light of that it kinda makes 0 sense to me that Cosmere aware characters don’t bring up the events at all, even obliquely? It would be a huge topic of conversation for anyone who knows anything about the shards, no? 

What makes you think that they won't mention these events? The Lost Metal already did mention them, to the extent they were clear to the protagonists. It seems to me that the Stormfall - Scadrial frame of reference - happened very soon after or slightly before Kelsier and Harmony had their conversation.

Yet that everybody knows something happened does not mean that it will be mentioned often. How commonly do we talk about the First World War? Just to give an example.

[NattyBo]

25 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

What makes you think that they won't mention these events? The Lost Metal already did mention them, to the extent they were clear to the protagonists. It seems to me that the Stormfall - Scadrial frame of reference - happened very soon after or slightly before Kelsier and Harmony had their conversation.

Yet that everybody knows something happened does not mean that it will be mentioned often. How commonly do we talk about the First World War? Just to give an example.

It’s probably that I need to reread the TLM, but I don’t remember much other than that “if you count Roshar” throwaway line?

Im not sure how it would work time-dilation wise, but Hoid was already Wax’s coachman by The Bands of Mourning right? That would put the events on Roshar several Scadrial years before TLM, if I’m seeing things clearly. 

So maybe it is old news by then, which would kinda make sense.  
 

the only thing I can remember without cheating aka the copper mind is that some (I think?) sky breakers randomly showed up to help sink ships at the climax of TLM, but wanted to be extra sure about the legality…

[BinarySecond]

Questions and statements that have stayed with me:

Ok but what was the 4th moon made of. What metal exists on the Shattered Plains? The resonance of Honour and Odium shattered the plains, so that's a question answered at least.

12124 being Auxiliary was a good prediction, glad I was on board that one.

I joked about a metal/gem hybrid hemalurgic spike. God damnit he actually did it though.

"A flip of Honor being the villain in the back half is a nice theory" I WAS JOKING PLEASE

I don't understand how Odium was able to destroy Kharbranth. I only have an Audiobook of Oathbringer but preserving Kharbranth and all it's citizens and spouses surely has been violated.

The Listener's control the only stable access point between the Cognitive and Physical Realms on Roshar. Brilliant move from Venli.

Can we just have Moash be dead of old age before book 6 please? Thanks.

Hoid's Dawnshard is EXIST.

What is the cost of using Dai-Gonarthis exactly?

I love the design of the Focused Ones.

Taln - RIP AND TEAR until it is done.

Canticle is similar to Braize but for Investiture and not Souls. What purpose does it serve for Adonalium to have created it?

Honor is dead but I'll see what I can do. Whitespine Uncaged. Whitespine on vacation.

Reason is the last remaining Shard to be named?!

Did not expect the Szeth starting a civil war plot. 10/10

Who is Lin Davar's bastard? Is it relevant?

Adolin and Shallan in a long distance relationship on the same planet. Damn that's rough buddy.

Un-oathed are badass.

Child champion theory correct?!

Rlain and Renarin YES.

Szeth waifu.

El has a shard blade, but is it more like an Honor Blade?

Nightblood Firmware update complete.

Cultivation just peaced out. Absolutely limp.

No Nightwatcher bondsmith this arc.

WIT: Sadly I died. But I lived!

Lift breaking Axwindeths legs through friction vs feruchemical speed.

The Power of Honor doing a little splintering/Avatar-ing before merging into Retribution.

Rest in Peace Dalinar Kholin. You were the ass of Roshar and the ultimate bamboozler of the Cosmere.

Edited December 10, 2024 by BinarySecond

[+Oltux72 he/him]

45 minutes ago, NattyBo said:

It’s probably that I need to reread the TLM, but I don’t remember much other than that “if you count Roshar” throwaway line?

There is also the line about Iyatil running amok -> During TLM they don't yet know she is dead.

45 minutes ago, NattyBo said:

Im not sure how it would work time-dilation wise, but Hoid was already Wax’s coachman by The Bands of Mourning right?

Even before that. In Bands of Mourning he also posed as a beggar giving Waxillium the coppermind medalion coin. In The Last Metal he again worked as a driver, but IIRC for the police.

There was also a longer absence mentioned in Rhythm of War. I think our new collective hobby will be fitting Hoid's travels into the timeline, now that Shallan's oaths are done.

46 minutes ago, NattyBo said:

some (I think?) sky breakers randomly showed up to help sink ships at the climax of TLM, but wanted to be extra sure about the legality…

Yes. I think we now need to conclude that these people are bonded to Highspren. That puts the Stormfall before TLM, but they still think that Iyatil is alive. I would conclude that TLM takes place between the Stormfall and Shallan arriving at the former perpendicularity, that is TLM takes place during Wind and Truth.

Now this is complex and I may be wrong, but it seems to me like Brandon has fiddled with the timeline and the Stormlight Archive 1 - 5 (save for the end of WaT) takes place in the gap between BoM and TLM.

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

I'm having a hard time fully encapsulating my thoughts on this book. There's just so much of it to think about, and I enjoyed reading every bit of it. Since I'm fresh off my first read, some of this might be missing important context, so please tell me if my takes are bad or generally incoherent.

A few things:

Spoiler

- I knew Renarin and Rlain would happen, but the way it happened was just afgdkngfdkjfh asdfghjkl aaaaa so good!! Renarin's line about not wanting people to have to make accommodations for him because his brain worked differently hit so close to home. Brandon is really playing to his queer ND audience, and I love it!

- While I liked Kaladin and Szeth's plot, the stuff with Nale and Ishar felt a bit too "revelation therapy" for my taste. Both Nale and Ishar had epic moments in which they realized "well, frig, i guess i've been wrong this whole time," then did a heel-face turn. Nale's 180-degree turn was earned, but it's not how therapy in real life works. I understand that the Heralds' depression is *magic*, but the way Nale and Ishar snapped out of it was a poor analog to real life. Considering that this book could be some people's first destigmatized depiction of therapy, I have mixed feelings about how the book presents it.

- Shallan was the character I enjoyed reading the least. I was going to say "it didn't feel like she had anywhere to go," but that's not quite true - she had a lot of stuff on her plate, with Mraize and fake-Formless and Chana. I found her plots engaging in other books, so I'm not sure why I didn't this time. Maybe it's because her ending felt less satisfying?

- I think making the main focus of this book Roshar's past was an excellent decision. The part of me that likes having all the little bits of lore filled in was super happy with this, but more than that, it felt like a natural extension of the themes present in Stormlight to have a big climax book be mostly introspective; focused on how the world and characters got to where they are, and using that as setup for the big events of day nine and day ten. It doesn't just accomplish this with the Spiritual Realm plot, but with the ways each character's plotline was paced. Shallan, Kaladin, and Dalinar in particular are mostly retreading old ground; reinforcing and building upon what they've learned throughout the rest of the series. It's a good finale to Dalinar and Kaladin's arcs (though I don't doubt we'll see more of Kaladin in the future) and a good point for Shallan's character to rest on.

- A lot of recent discussions of Brandon's works have been centered around his prose. I agree that it's getting more and more modern, but as someone who isn't normally a fan of epic fantasy, modern prose doesn't take me out of the story as much as it might for other people. I haven't read much of what Brandon says on the topic, but for me, his prose makes his books so much more enjoyable to read. In our world, we have cultural context for how epic fantasy characters should talk, but this is mostly based on the fact that many fantasy novels have a pseudo-medieval vibe. In my opinion, neither type of prose is inherently bad, and how Brandon writes would likely be the wrong decision for many stories. However, there's something to be said about making stories like the Stormlight Archive more accessible. Tolkien viewed his books as translations into English, and Roshar is a world completely separate from our own, so why not translate the Stormlight Archive from Alethi, Thaylenah, Azish, Shin, etc. into language that reflects how people speak English here on Earth in 2024? There are drawbacks to this approach, but for me, it seems like the right one. There's something to be said for Wind and Truth, which has so much relevance to the conflicts happening in our world today, being "translated" into language in which we experience those conflicts.

- In general, it was really really good and I can't wait for book 6! :3

[Feelosopher]

On 12/8/2024 at 4:05 AM, eriwancoselyn said:

 for me, it's not just the shard merger that makes it like hero of ages. I totally get that there are a lot of shard merges in our future. 

it's more the whole bait and switch of the thing. the person predicted to take the power ends up heroically surrendering it to ultimately do more good.it feels like such an echo of hero of ages that I can't help but compare the two. 

it's just that there are a million different ways to write someone taking a shard. there's no need to redo something you already did great in another book.

 

Maybe that’s the point, though? The Cosmere is going to have themes throughout. Letting go of the powers could be one of those, and for a good reason. 

[MicahLarimer]

Unfortunately my least favorite SA book. 100 200 pages too long.

The best Brandon Sanderson is when his foreshadowing is done well, like me crying reading about Tien cheering on Kaladin at the end of RoW before Stormblessed says the fourth ideal.  We knew he had to say it, it was just a matter of "how" and Brandon delivered .

This book really didn't deliver for me as much on the previous foreshadowing.

Where previous foreshadowing felt the best:

Maya & Deadeyes - coming into this book the hope for me was that Adolin doesn't simply become radiant, he didn't, and instead discovered an entirely new type of bond (or lack thereof) which was thematically very on point. Not sure why we couldn’t get a bit more explanation on how the deadeye plate works.  Plate spren don’t manifest as deadeyes?

Where there was a distinct lack of foreshadowing prior to this book:

Where the heck did the wind come from?  Was that in the outline 5 years ago?  Did Brandon decide to add that after he already finished RoW? It feels like an addition he realized he had to add after this book was largely finished.

Where previous foreshadowing felt the worst:

The contest of champions.  Like what the crap was that supposed to ever be?  The more I thought about the contest prior to this book, the more I felt like it was just going to be a big nothingburger that . . .  *sighs* . . . probably involves a child. Why would Rayes have ever agreed to this if his plan was to use *checks notes* Moash?? (is he called Disco inquisitor now?) It was very clear this was always going to be some grand moral dilemma.

And there we have the theme of this book, moral dilemmas. Moral dilemmas in books should exist for one purpose, to give the reader something to look forward to after the dilemma is overcome.  I hate when i have to constantly hear the main characters second guessing their choices because no one actually has any idea what the hell to do.

You know what part of this book involved absolute moral clarity - when a bunch of Fused walked in to a hospital to kill the wounded to demoralize people and accidentally ran into a 300-pound herald roided to the tits.  That was amazing and EVERYONE AGREES.  We got a couple pages with that level of satisfaction and probably about 100 pages of protagonists agonizing over morals or what they need to do.

Rapid fire mode:

Jasnah's part was just boring adults talking. I will take the battle over Theylyn field over the argument over Theylyn city any day.

Kaladin and Szeth suffered from way too much redundant philosophizing, with a lot of therapy mixed in. I did enjoy the fact that basically everyone in contact with Kaladin benefitted from his recently discovered therapy skills. Szeth also skipping the fourth ideal was cool.

Szeth's backstory - Did I mention the problem of moral dilemmas?  I get it, that is a large theme of the book. The Ishar-god twist was interesting but the voice seemed far too normal to be Ishar, not to mention Ishar blaming an unmade at the end of RoW really tricked me as I don’t understand why he (a “god”) feels the need to lie. In that same scene in RoW he also appears to be utterly surprised by Nightblood, but he would know perfectly well what Nightblood is as he was the one who wanted Szeth to have it as a test?!

Renarin & Rlain - Brandon still doesn't write romance well.  Boring. Rlain was better at the end of RoW and Renarin was better at the end of Oathbringer. No interesting progress.

Shallan and the Ghostbloods - I think this could have been done better, the Ghostblood just disappeared after the oathpact vision and were gone for like, 50 chapters?  What was their plan with Mishram again????

The spiritual realm generally was cool and the flashbacks enjoyable, but really the only established rules we got were "you need to get an object to act as an anchor" and yet later after everyone had lost their anchors they all ended up just fine (sorry Gav you don’t count).

Ba-Ado-Mishram - She ended up just being a MacGuffin . Her betrayal flashback was very interesting though, and a great explanation of Honor’s downfall and the Recreance (the latter was also well foreshadowed in previous books). Ultimately this isn’t so bad, she just needs to be well used in the back 5.

Sigzil - You know I actually liked reading his parts after having read Sunlit Man.  It gave me some odd shivers down my spine whenever he would get optimistic about basically anything, all the way up to him meeting Szeth’s former spren at the end. I was just waiting for the name "Aux" to  be dropped.  You know what, I really liked Szeth's spren, I hope nothing bad happens to him.

I do feel like this sets up for the back 5 very well.  The lack of payoffs with characters like El and Ba-Ado-Mishram can easily be forgiven by interesting uses of them in the back 5. Although the fake Blackthorn (do we have a comical name yet for him?) will undoubtedly contend with Moash (Disco-Inquisitor) for the most hated characters (by the fandom) of the Cosmere. I certainly anticipated a huge paradigm shift at the end of this book that would change the setting for book 5, and Brandon delivered that incredibly well. I still need to think more about how I feel about the ending, specifically how Dalinar would have known his idea would work as well as it did.  If the contract is all broken, why would Azimir or the shattered plains be safe? If it is Honor’s power that restricts Retribution, requiring him to hold to the VERY BROKEN contract, couldn’t he just throw Honor’s power back in the spiritual realm or something? Break some vows?

Dalinar’s death was good. It is kind of fun that most people don’t understand that his failure was intentional.  Kaladin being assumed dead also sets up a very fun return in the back 5.

Perhaps my biggest disappointment was one of expectations, I really wanted a neater ending, one that would get me through the next six seven eight years until the Stormlight #6. Alas there are still so many questions that have me thirsting for more. Maybe, if I can just hop into the spiritual realm for a few hours I can pop out 30 years in the future….

As many others have said, most of the plots in this book ultimately feel like destination before journey – Brandon knew where he wanted characters for the back 5 so he got them there. Regardless of the cost. *That last sentence should be read in an over-dramatic voice*

WoK – 5/5

WoR – 4.7/5

OB – 4.9/5

RoW – 4.8/5

WaT – ?4.4?/5 - Granted my grades of Brandon’s books really take a year or two to settle in, usually after the first re-read. For me WoK has aged like fine wine and will probably somehow be a 5.1/5 by the time I die. I doubt WaT’s grade goes up with time.

Thanks for reading my thoughts.

[MicahLarimer]

2 hours ago, logicless.bt said:

 

3. I really dislike the idea of Shards growing and learning, but I'll reserve that for a full separate post.

 

Watch the end of the Cosmere be the powers growing and learning and somehow combing without a vessel. Democratize the power yay!

[Blightsong he/him]

A strong 9/10

The most experimental and subversive Stormlight book as well as the most thematically rich one. The things that happen here recontextualize pretty much the entire series in a way I’ve never seen done. I suspect it will be divisive, but I loved it.

It’s an absolute volcano of worldbuilding, thematic resolution, and allegorical messaging. A book that really makes you stop, think, and engage with what’s happening on a deep level.

In my opinion, the only other Cosmere books that compete are WoR and ES. I think this one trumps either for my personal taste. He really pulled it off.

Now to dig into the implications and hidden details

Edited December 11, 2024 by Blightsong

[Subvisual Haze]

So when TOdium saw a way to win at the end of RoW, was his plan all along for Cultivation to convince Dalinar into exploring the spirit realm, and then for the Ghostbloods to blow up the perpendicularity while Gavinor just so happens to be in the area?  So that he can isolate Gavinor in an age pocket and convince him to be his champion?  And this within the limited 10 day timeframe?  Because that's an impressive plan.  Clearly a very smart man to plan out all these specific events outside his control.

[Moirne she/her]

35 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

So when TOdium saw a way to win at the end of RoW, was his plan all along for Cultivation to convince Dalinar into exploring the spirit realm, and then for the Ghostbloods to blow up the perpendicularity while Gavinor just so happens to be in the area?  So that he can isolate Gavinor in an age pocket and convince him to be his champion?  And this within the limited 10 day timeframe?  Because that's an impressive plan.  Clearly a very smart man to plan out all these specific events outside his control.

I wonder if he was just going to select some other rando who would appear innocent, and bribe him into the contest. Like a starving farmer who just wants Odium’s protection so he can feed his family. But then Gav showed up in the SR and he couldn’t help himself.

[Subvisual Haze]

6 minutes ago, Moirne said:

I wonder if he was just going to select some other rando who would appear innocent, and bribe him into the contest. Like a starving farmer who just wants Odium’s protection so he can feed his family. But then Gav showed up in the SR and he couldn’t help himself.

Raises an interesting point.  Would Dalinar have been willing to kill any child, or woman, or elderly, or infirm, or person who just doesn't know how to fight.  Odium was shooting water in a barrel trying to pick someone who Dalinar wouldn't be willing to kill.

[Moirne she/her]

I think he wouldn’t, he admits to himself that Odium could have picked any innocent person to prove the same point. And I think Odium would have considered either of the two standard outcomes (Dalinar kills the innocent, or he refuses and surrenders) to be a win. It was the third outcome (not participate at all, reject contract) that he didn’t anticipate.

[+robardin he/him]

42 minutes ago, Moirne said:

I wonder if he was just going to select some other rando who would appear innocent, and bribe him into the contest. Like a starving farmer who just wants Odium’s protection so he can feed his family. But then Gav showed up in the SR and he couldn’t help himself.

Or the literal "suckling babe" from the Death Rattle. I mean, that one was annotated as: "Collected on Shashanan 1173, 23 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a darkeyed youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note."

The Silent Gatherers being the ones working directly for Taravangian in his secret "hospital", and if it was of "particular note", it was one that the mortal Taravangian must already have spent a long time pondering the meaning of.

Now that he was a god, the one that's the power behind Moelach no less, you can bet he didn't forget that one and made the same leap about Odium's Champion for the Contest of Champions as many a fan theory already supposed.

Yes... Dalinar has set himself up to fail. Either way, he would be satisfied: Dalinar would have to kill an innocent, thus proving him right about Realpolitik in his various arguments with him in the past over what it means to rule; or to yield the Contest.

In that light, using an aged-up Gavinor raised to hate Dalinar was simply an opportunistic way to twist the knife even harder.

2 hours ago, MicahLarimer said:

Watch the end of the Cosmere be the powers growing and learning and somehow combing without a vessel. Democratize the power yay!

LOL, they all re-form (the ones that were Splintered) and reject their Vessels to recombine into Adonalsium, Voltron-style.

I mean we know Brandon is also an anime fan.

IT. COULD. HAPPEN!

[DiePie]

My thoughts essentially boil down to this:

 

"Sanderson, you sly dog, you!"

- Brandon Sanderson

[IcaroRibeiro he/him]

Those review threads (I follow them since Oathbringer release) are always surprising to see how much people like The Way of Kings, looks like the fan favourite of many 

Most of TWoK sounded like a non-story for me. It's just... way too many pages to tell 3 stories that could be condensed in maybe 600 pages. The book always felt like an immense prologue. Coming from Mistborn which was really streamlined TWoK was a big slog. Part 5 plot twists were the reason why I decided to go for Words of Radiance

 

Glad it convinced me to read Words of Radiance though, still my favourite Stormlight book 

[boonboon]

There's no way Adolin wasn't supposed to become OC. Gavinor is a last-minute change.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

6 hours ago, boonboon said:

There's no way Adolin wasn't supposed to become OC. Gavinor is a last-minute change.

If Adolin was supposed to OC, it would have been during WoR time. The moment Adolin became a main character in Oathbringer, I was sure he would never be Odium's champion. It just wouldn't fit with the perfect kind prince archetype he was growing into. Or his arc with Maya. It would not make sense for him to become Odium's champion then