KaladinWorldsinger

But... Everybody does faill sometimes right? Why would we want to subvert that, when that itself is a hard truth to swallow?

Now I am going to be a bit disappointed if this doesn't happen

SF did say in Oathbringer that bonding Dalinar gave him understanding about Honor in humans. He says" It makes sense to me now as it didn't before" and "I hated them for their broken oaths, but now I see honor in the poor beings you call heralds" In the first 4 books there was a strong theme of spren(who were faaar more changeless and uniform than humans, and could not break oaths) not understanding about Honor in Humans. SF clearly had a rigid understanding of oaths too. But the shard itself still cared about the intent behind the oath

Ok, so accepting that Honor the Shard only cares about the self improvement of Radiants because of the influence of Cultivation (if this is what Brandon intended from the beginning, then he could have easily clarified this in his Tanavast Visions), in the case of Eshonai SF has not yet bonded Dalinar. SF doesn't see Honor in the heralds without bonding Dalinar. And Honor the shard also doesn't understand the intent behind oaths. Then how does SF understand the intent enough to accept Eshonai's oaths? @Atlas333 Also, now that I am back from life stuff, I do want to revive the discussion on why Honorspren were singled out to be "mostly made of Honor". Honorspren as a whole end up caring about the intent behind an oath(not as rigid) The answer here was that Honorspren care about intent because Tanavast cared about Intent, not Honor the Shard. But if that was the case, why specify that Honorspren were "mostly made of Honor". What purpose does this information serve? If the info was that Honorspren were created from tiny pieces of Tanavast's own soul, this would make perfect sense why Honorspren care about intent. The theory posted earlier was that this also explained why cultivationspren seemed to care about listening and remembering the forgotten. This doesn't exactly mash well with Cultivation's intent, so it must be Koraveri's intent. Again, the info states that cultivationspren are made entirely of the peices of the Shard, which means nothing now. I think that listening and remembering the forgotten is the only way for Society to grow and be nurtured, which then fits perfectly with Cultivation the Shard in a broader societal way. Also, edgedancers are like therapists to individuals, they recognise the fact that to help a person grow, you have to listen and understand them. How else will they grow? Remember the forgotten helps a society, points out holes in the structure of that society. It helps people to not make the same mistakes again. So I fully believe that cultivationspren perfectly embody the shardic intent. Another food for thought: Honorspren ,"mostly made of Honor", care about the intent of an oath. Highspren, a mix of Honor and Cultivation, care about only the oath. I think this is a contradiction

I think Eshonai's death is framed as SF taking mercy on her. He chose to accept her words Oh I know that. I am talking Windrunners, Bondsmiths maybe shybreajers,stonewards, dustbringers for SF SF chose to accept Eshonai's unspoken oaths. That is my point. Are we saying that is not at all connected to Honor the Shard?? Lopen was not making an oath, it was statement of wanting to improve, SF accepted that too. Honor must care about the intent behind the oath too then. I don't see where I am losing you. Cultivation accepts other oaths, like edgedancers and Willshapers. But SF is accepting his share of Radiant oaths

I disagree because it is the stormfather and Honor accepting these oaths. Then, I think the intent of the Shard does matter. As I said before, I don't think SF is mindlessly forced to accept every oath a Radiant and his spren decide to make. The SF has to look at the intent and accept them. I am only talking about Honor's intent because SF accepts radiant Oaths(like Honor before him) and now I feel Honor the shard's intent has been retconned.

This fits very Thematically into the themes of Tormlight Archive and I don't disagree with any of it. What I do think is that the shard of Honor also had the positive aspects of caring about the intent of an oath too.

I will be honest, i didn't understand what you were saying here at all. My point was Lopen or Eshonai never meant to make an oath, but Stormfather accepted them anyway. He only looked at their intent. Lopen especially shows that I feel, since it was sooo accidental. I will say that in Eshonai's case, the framing is that SF chose to accept Eshonai's unspoken words, as an act of mercy(out of guilt, sure, but still a choice) rather than SF being forced to recognise Eshonai. Similarly, even for Lopen I feel SF wasn't forced into accepting it, rather Stormfather himself chose that moment. Why would that matter to Honor? Gavilar can say the words, then lose whatever he gains when it is probable that he is breaking his oath. Isn't that enough? An oath is an oath. The difference between an oath and a promise is the intent. Lopen never had the intent to make an oath, he just stated his intent to change. Eshonai has no intent to make an oath, she just had an intent to fight for her freedom.

I had extra questions so I am necroing my post. When Lopen says his third ideal, he did it completely accidentally and Stormfather accepted them anyway. Ok, maybe Radiant oaths have some concept of Self improvement because of Cultivation, but Stormfather shouldn't really. But he chooses to accept them anyway. Same with Eshonai. Eshonai wasn't even trying to become Radiant, but Stormfather saw her Intent and made her a Radiant. Even more damning example I feel: Why didn't Gavilar's words matter? He was saying the right things, even though he didn't mean them. But if Honor the shard didn't care about intent much, then Gavilar would have been totally fine with Stormfather right? It feels like a Huge Retcon in the story to me still.

I think there is pleasure in someone evil getting their comeuppance from, poetically, one of their victims themselves. So I would dispute that this was too dark. Adolin is a soldier, not a civilian. He has killed a looooot more people out of pure apathy(enemy soldiers, sure, still us vs them mentality like any other soldier). Honestly, the mass murder that a shardbearer commits is waay darker than anything done to Sadeas.

I do fully believe that by the time Brandon started writing Oathbringer, He was on Adolin's side. This is when Adolin became a main character and a very feel good character ( he wasn't evil before, but in OB he just becomes an overall amazing guy). So I think Brandon wanted Adolin to not suffer from doing, essentially, the right thing

The God Beyond is a god that may or may not exist in the cosmere. Brandon made this God because he wanted a legit, non physical, ethereal god that is an object of pure faith. An atheist could see Adonalsium and go, that's not God. Dalinar see Nohadon in his visions because he is sent by the God Beyond or created in Dalinar's mind. There will never be a definite answer because the God Beyond is an object of pure faith. Nohadon is himself just a wise guy that Dalinar admires. Let's remember that Dalinar heard Evi in Oathbringer and we know she wasn't special (oof that sounds awful to say )

If that was the case then it would have been fine to say that all spren were a mix of Honor and Cultivation. By specifically pointing out that Honorspren were"made mostly of Honor", Brandon is saying something. Honorspren still chose their ideals that they liked, not Ishar. Honorspren care about protection over the law, that is not something that Ishar thrust upon them.

That definitely is possible. We know that Book3 was supposed to szeths book, that Tara becoming Odium was a book 4 decision. It's very likely that Book 5 has diverged majorly from the original outline. Like who would have predicted that Sigzil would have an entire plotline in book 5? I am sure if he hadn't written TSM, this arc would have been a few chapters(maybe Venli would have taken center stage instead)

Honorspren are called out to be made mostly of Honor. They care more about the intent of an oath than the oath. Hence, Honor the shard cares more about the intent of an oath. Other Reasons: Highspren, who care more about the oath, are not called "Honorspren" and are not "mostly made of Honor". Honorspren choose people who care more about protection(intent) than the law(oaths) Exactly why I am calling it a Retcon If self improvement as a concept is foreign to Honor, then there is no Higher oath. "I will protect those who can't protect themselves" and "I accept that I can't protect everyon" can't coexist. Then it would also hate Tanavast for accepting oaths that Honor would not like(Windrunner 4th ideal, Skybreaker 5th ideal for example). If he accepts for thousands of Radiants over generations and millennia, then the power would have a million offences against Tanavast, and Tan would have lost his shard early.