KaladinWorldsinger

But... Everybody does faill sometimes right? Why would we want to subvert that, when that itself is a hard truth to swallow?

Now I am going to be a bit disappointed if this doesn't happen

SF did say in Oathbringer that bonding Dalinar gave him understanding about Honor in humans. He says" It makes sense to me now as it didn't before" and "I hated them for their broken oaths, but now I see honor in the poor beings you call heralds" In the first 4 books there was a strong theme of spren(who were faaar more changeless and uniform than humans, and could not break oaths) not understanding about Honor in Humans. SF clearly had a rigid understanding of oaths too. But the shard itself still cared about the intent behind the oath

Ok, so accepting that Honor the Shard only cares about the self improvement of Radiants because of the influence of Cultivation (if this is what Brandon intended from the beginning, then he could have easily clarified this in his Tanavast Visions), in the case of Eshonai SF has not yet bonded Dalinar. SF doesn't see Honor in the heralds without bonding Dalinar. And Honor the shard also doesn't understand the intent behind oaths. Then how does SF understand the intent enough to accept Eshonai's oaths? @Atlas333 Also, now that I am back from life stuff, I do want to revive the discussion on why Honorspren were singled out to be "mostly made of Honor". Honorspren as a whole end up caring about the intent behind an oath(not as rigid) The answer here was that Honorspren care about intent because Tanavast cared about Intent, not Honor the Shard. But if that was the case, why specify that Honorspren were "mostly made of Honor". What purpose does this information serve? If the info was that Honorspren were created from tiny pieces of Tanavast's own soul, this would make perfect sense why Honorspren care about intent. The theory posted earlier was that this also explained why cultivationspren seemed to care about listening and remembering the forgotten. This doesn't exactly mash well with Cultivation's intent, so it must be Koraveri's intent. Again, the info states that cultivationspren are made entirely of the peices of the Shard, which means nothing now. I think that listening and remembering the forgotten is the only way for Society to grow and be nurtured, which then fits perfectly with Cultivation the Shard in a broader societal way. Also, edgedancers are like therapists to individuals, they recognise the fact that to help a person grow, you have to listen and understand them. How else will they grow? Remember the forgotten helps a society, points out holes in the structure of that society. It helps people to not make the same mistakes again. So I fully believe that cultivationspren perfectly embody the shardic intent. Another food for thought: Honorspren ,"mostly made of Honor", care about the intent of an oath. Highspren, a mix of Honor and Cultivation, care about only the oath. I think this is a contradiction

I think Eshonai's death is framed as SF taking mercy on her. He chose to accept her words Oh I know that. I am talking Windrunners, Bondsmiths maybe shybreajers,stonewards, dustbringers for SF SF chose to accept Eshonai's unspoken oaths. That is my point. Are we saying that is not at all connected to Honor the Shard?? Lopen was not making an oath, it was statement of wanting to improve, SF accepted that too. Honor must care about the intent behind the oath too then. I don't see where I am losing you. Cultivation accepts other oaths, like edgedancers and Willshapers. But SF is accepting his share of Radiant oaths

I disagree because it is the stormfather and Honor accepting these oaths. Then, I think the intent of the Shard does matter. As I said before, I don't think SF is mindlessly forced to accept every oath a Radiant and his spren decide to make. The SF has to look at the intent and accept them. I am only talking about Honor's intent because SF accepts radiant Oaths(like Honor before him) and now I feel Honor the shard's intent has been retconned.

This fits very Thematically into the themes of Tormlight Archive and I don't disagree with any of it. What I do think is that the shard of Honor also had the positive aspects of caring about the intent of an oath too.

I will be honest, i didn't understand what you were saying here at all. My point was Lopen or Eshonai never meant to make an oath, but Stormfather accepted them anyway. He only looked at their intent. Lopen especially shows that I feel, since it was sooo accidental. I will say that in Eshonai's case, the framing is that SF chose to accept Eshonai's unspoken words, as an act of mercy(out of guilt, sure, but still a choice) rather than SF being forced to recognise Eshonai. Similarly, even for Lopen I feel SF wasn't forced into accepting it, rather Stormfather himself chose that moment. Why would that matter to Honor? Gavilar can say the words, then lose whatever he gains when it is probable that he is breaking his oath. Isn't that enough? An oath is an oath. The difference between an oath and a promise is the intent. Lopen never had the intent to make an oath, he just stated his intent to change. Eshonai has no intent to make an oath, she just had an intent to fight for her freedom.

I had extra questions so I am necroing my post. When Lopen says his third ideal, he did it completely accidentally and Stormfather accepted them anyway. Ok, maybe Radiant oaths have some concept of Self improvement because of Cultivation, but Stormfather shouldn't really. But he chooses to accept them anyway. Same with Eshonai. Eshonai wasn't even trying to become Radiant, but Stormfather saw her Intent and made her a Radiant. Even more damning example I feel: Why didn't Gavilar's words matter? He was saying the right things, even though he didn't mean them. But if Honor the shard didn't care about intent much, then Gavilar would have been totally fine with Stormfather right? It feels like a Huge Retcon in the story to me still.

I think there is pleasure in someone evil getting their comeuppance from, poetically, one of their victims themselves. So I would dispute that this was too dark. Adolin is a soldier, not a civilian. He has killed a looooot more people out of pure apathy(enemy soldiers, sure, still us vs them mentality like any other soldier). Honestly, the mass murder that a shardbearer commits is waay darker than anything done to Sadeas.

I do fully believe that by the time Brandon started writing Oathbringer, He was on Adolin's side. This is when Adolin became a main character and a very feel good character ( he wasn't evil before, but in OB he just becomes an overall amazing guy). So I think Brandon wanted Adolin to not suffer from doing, essentially, the right thing

The God Beyond is a god that may or may not exist in the cosmere. Brandon made this God because he wanted a legit, non physical, ethereal god that is an object of pure faith. An atheist could see Adonalsium and go, that's not God. Dalinar see Nohadon in his visions because he is sent by the God Beyond or created in Dalinar's mind. There will never be a definite answer because the God Beyond is an object of pure faith. Nohadon is himself just a wise guy that Dalinar admires. Let's remember that Dalinar heard Evi in Oathbringer and we know she wasn't special (oof that sounds awful to say )

If that was the case then it would have been fine to say that all spren were a mix of Honor and Cultivation. By specifically pointing out that Honorspren were"made mostly of Honor", Brandon is saying something. Honorspren still chose their ideals that they liked, not Ishar. Honorspren care about protection over the law, that is not something that Ishar thrust upon them.

That definitely is possible. We know that Book3 was supposed to szeths book, that Tara becoming Odium was a book 4 decision. It's very likely that Book 5 has diverged majorly from the original outline. Like who would have predicted that Sigzil would have an entire plotline in book 5? I am sure if he hadn't written TSM, this arc would have been a few chapters(maybe Venli would have taken center stage instead)

Honorspren are called out to be made mostly of Honor. They care more about the intent of an oath than the oath. Hence, Honor the shard cares more about the intent of an oath. Other Reasons: Highspren, who care more about the oath, are not called "Honorspren" and are not "mostly made of Honor". Honorspren choose people who care more about protection(intent) than the law(oaths) Exactly why I am calling it a Retcon If self improvement as a concept is foreign to Honor, then there is no Higher oath. "I will protect those who can't protect themselves" and "I accept that I can't protect everyon" can't coexist. Then it would also hate Tanavast for accepting oaths that Honor would not like(Windrunner 4th ideal, Skybreaker 5th ideal for example). If he accepts for thousands of Radiants over generations and millennia, then the power would have a million offences against Tanavast, and Tan would have lost his shard early.

Maybe when Bonding Aux, Sigzil chooses to follow the Windrunner code, which creates very wierd scenarios. Because in TSM, Sigzil still acts more like a Windrunner than a Skybreaker anyway

The wierd thing is, Dalinar giving up power has been foreshadowed since atleast book 2, where Amaram criticizes Dal by saying "At some point, you will have to give away power and let it stay given Dalinar" and Dal gets ashamed cuz it's true. And Brandon did say that Dalinar was written to embody the best and worst of both Honor and Odium We know that Taravangian becoming Odium was a book 4 decision Which makes me wonder if the original ending was Dalinar becoming Retribution, and realising that this was a bad idea, so chooses to give up that power. Essentially Democratizing access to investiture. But who knows? Then why does the Honorspren vs Highspren debate exist? Why are the Honorspren themed around protection over the law? Why aren't the Skybreaker spren called Honorspren if they are indeed closer to Honor? Even Highspren realise the law isn't everything, which lets Skybreakers choose to become the law at the 5th ideal. If Tanavast was so far from the intent of his shard, how was he not immediately booted out when Tanavast accepted oaths like the Windrunner's 4th ideal(which would just look like a contradiction to Honor the shard) Honorspren are explicitly called out to be almost entirely of Honor, which means that Highspren are more mixed with Cultivation. Which I think proves my point that Honor the shard used to be more about the intent than the oath itself It is still Tanavast accepting the oaths of Windrunners, Skybreakers, Bondsmiths, Willshapers and maybe more. The power would have rebelled at the concept of self improvement every single time for every radiant. That sounds very messy

What answers? What did we learn that we did not know already? We got some teases about the shattered plains and Braize, but I feel like we already pretty much knew everything else

So my main disappointment might be... I don't really get any of the main twists and revelations of the book. So Honor sent a vision of the radiants destroying the planet using the surges. He did this "in a moment of weakness". But why was it weakness? He knows that Surgebinders would get extremely powerful after Honor dying, and he saw the same thing happen on Ashyn apparently. So isn't sending the visions totally the right idea? I guess the Stormfather being created somehow made sure that the Radiants didn't get powers with no limits, but Tanavast didn't know that when he was dying, did he? Also, what exactly was Tanavast's character flaw? Koraveri tells him to not fight Odium many times, but then admits that Rayse is dangerous each time. Basically Tan had her agreement almost everytime. So then why did she react with "disgust and revulsion" in his death? Where did he actually go wrong? We know he didn't intend to lobotomize the Singers. He betrayed BAM, but his reasoning was perfect right? Yes BAM could have killed Rayse, but that would have simply delayed the problem of Odium. BAM would have been the next Rayse sooner or later. Was Tanavast just naive(because he was tricked by Rayse)? Careless(because he didn't forsee the effect that BAM imprisonment would have)? Is that his flaw? Because Rayse did need to be faught right? Letting Rayse run amok in the cosmere, killing more shards would have been wrong, right? So every Knight Radiant ever (except Skybreakers) decided to give up their powers just because of a vague vision? Every single one? No one said the reason out loud? Why? Because seeing the future is forbidden? It just feels like a series of events where no one did anything too wrong, but everything went to hell anyway. But Tan seems to believe that it was his fault. I felt that this was inevitable. The Retcon Was the shard of Honor always only about oaths???? I feel like that definitely was not true in the first four books. Tanavast states that the shard Honor should not have been seperated from the love of Adonalsium (which is Devotion), but I feel like Honr the shard was always more than just oaths. There is a direct line that states that the shard Honor doesn't care about self improvement. Really???? I feel like this is blatantly not true in the first 4 books. Evidence: 1) While Highspren look at the written oaths, Honorspren look at the intent behind them. That is the ideological divide between them. Notum addresses this in Oathbringer. If the shard Honor doesn't recognise self improvement, then Skybreaker Spren would be called Honorspren wouldn't they??? It is because Honorspren look at the intent behind the oaths that Windrunners deal with Protection over the law. That is not, apparently, the intent of the shard from the very beginning..... Heck even Skybreakers become the law at the 5 the ideal. How does that work if Honor doesn't care about self improvement? We know before Stormfather, it was Honor accepting words after all 2) In words of Radiance, Kal nearly kills Syl because of his two conflicting oaths. Syl tells him that the only way to fix this is with a higher oath. But that doesn't make sense with what we know Honor is like. Kaladin swearing the third ideal would now just be a third conflicting oath. 3) We know the Windrunner 4th ideal has a theme of accepting your limits. That does not make sense with Honor, again. More importantly, the Retcon is that in the first four books, we learned that Honor was about the intent of the oath most of the time, until near the death of Tanavast and the recreance, where Tanavast started raving about broken oaths. We know the radiants had talked to honor because stormfather said that Honor at this time told them that their war was not justified (humans were invaders). A radiant even theorizes that Honor was changing. This timeline is now completely flipped. And I feel retconned. Honor the shard used to be only about oaths(even if Tan understood humans), then as Tan was listening through the storms till the recreance. It doesn't look like he was interacting at all with the Radiants to rave at them. How did that Radiant know that Honor was changing at all? Why does stormfather say that that Honor told the radiants their war wasn't justified. When did Tanavast ever speak of the Dawnshards at all? This feels like a massive Retcon so that the book's arc works( Adolin being unoathed, Szeth) I feel like Honor was always about the intent behind the oaths, never just the oaths themselves

Kaladin's arc is pretty much over. I think Brandon can easily hold off on bringing back Kal for even 2 books.

The sign of the nine is probably a red herring for the champion( Dalinar is revealed to be Odium's choice in OB as a big twist). Remember, the child Champion theory comes from a death rattle in WoK. So it is very likely that Adolin was never going to OC. Also remember, The Dalinar flashbacks all center around Dalinar sparing a child. This was pretty much set in stone. Adolin drifting away from Dalinar in Row is due to Dalinar's judgementalism and him killing Evi. Dalinar always thinks of himself as right and is very obstinate and rigid. This is why, in Wat, Dalinar asks Adolin for an apology. Adolin never did anything wrong in their relationship Adolin never aligns with Tara

Just bringing back my old thread to say.... I was totally right. Infact, I will be bold enough to say that Brandon(if he thought killing Sadeas was wrong in WoR) definitely changed his mind while writing Oathbringer. Infact, it was in Oathbringer that Adolin started to become the support structure for Shallan and Kaladin and of course always Renarin and a little bit of Dalinar and who can forget Maya? That would not make any sense if Adolin was supposed to take a darker turn

If Adolin was supposed to OC, it would have been during WoR time. The moment Adolin became a main character in Oathbringer, I was sure he would never be Odium's champion. It just wouldn't fit with the perfect kind prince archetype he was growing into. Or his arc with Maya. It would not make sense for him to become Odium's champion then

When book 6 comes out, we will find out that Kal and chana have dealt with it offscreen, like Brandon always does with awkward conversations. Like I have not forgotten that Kal's explanation of Moash's attempted assassination of elhokar would have to be a very condensed version. And we never got to see Adolin and Renarin finding out about Evi. Instead, skip to one year later so that they have dealt with it Brandon always skips drama

Since I don't know how to make memes... The wind: Please Kaladin, try to forgive Nale. He was a hero, he is just broken and weathered. Kal: Ok Fine, I will try The next day, Kal:<throws stew at Nale>This is therapy! Renarin:<Takes a bold step in confessing to Rlain> Rlain: I sense a great disturbance in the rhythms. As if millions of voices cried out in...happiness Glys: Oh no, that's just Shallan by the window. Kal and Syl: Dancing and Vibing Everyone in the Spiritual Realm: Learning Szeth and his spren: Screaming for their lives and throwing spoons at each other. Adolin, hearing, for the next decade, Lopen's one legged Herdazians jokes: fml 12124: CODE RED! CODE RED! Szeth is getting therapy! I repeat, Szeth is getting help! Nale, get your ass over here. Kal, trying to help Ishar: Have you heard of Derethil- Ishar: Do not cite the deep magic to me child, I was there when it was written! And it was wrong. BAM: I hate them all, I will kill them all! Renarin and Rlain:<hold hands> BAM: D'aww. Azish soldiers: Taln has returned to his senses. For the first time, he will fight back! He will fight-Aand he's dead. Ishar to Kal: You will try to replace Jezrien, the best of us? Taln: Hey Ishar, buddy, storm you too. Cultivation: Everything is going according to plan. Retribution is formed Cultivation: Wet your pants and Run for your lives! Taravangian: I want Blackthorn as my general Everyone: But you already killed Blackthorn. Tara: Yes, but what about second Blackthorn? 12124: and then he said" - attendant to your knight, auxiliary to his will" Sigzil: I know what your new name should be! ... Sigzil: Attendant. Windrunner: I will always protect peopl- Skybreakers on the other side of the world: storming Windrunners. Ishar: A new and improved Oathpact, coming to you this end of the world- Kalak: WHY DIDN'T WE THINK OF THIS BEFORE??? Everyone: <tells Dalinar he needs to give up power, let go of control> Dalinar: Lets go Cultivation and Wit: Not like that! Kal: So your names are numbers, like Cryptics Syl: Storms Kal, You can't just say things like that! Kal: Are there 12124 of you? Syl: Ugh, I am so sorry 12124.