KaladinWorldsinger

Practically from WoR, i haven't really bought Shallan as much of a spy at all. She just pretends to be Veil, a streetwise woman, but you can't really pretend your way into knowing people right? Oathbringer explores this with Kholinar, but she also develops her first lightweaver squires and creates the Unseen Court, who follow her lead, but she still very much feels like she is winging it. A year later, In RoW the the lightweavers are actual spies? Like trained enough to effective. It is clear as day that the Unseen Court is the Rosharan Worldhopping Organisation of the future. I am still surprised that Shallan is anywhere smart enough to lead such an Organisation

So Nohadon gave up his power even though there were families that left their homes to reach a kingdom which they thought was mythical. Where the king really cared about the farmer more than taxes. So why did he leave, when things were looking good? Probably because it was getting too ideal, too easy in some way. That is to say, Nohadon noticed himself getting to the power, getting too comfortable with his monarchy. He left because the power was bringing out complacency. If Nohadon is in some way responsible for the creation of the Knights Radiants as we know today, as people who take oaths instead of just Surgebinders, it makes sense why this Kingdom would suddenly seem mythical. Did Nohadon notice himself wanting to ' spread' his new form of Radiants to everyone else, even by force? We know that at one point Young Nohadon believed that the time for a sword was necessary, did old wise Nohadon start to feel the same way? Did Tanavast go through the same thing? When you teach someone, you can very, very, very easily fall into the trap of thinking that you are better than your student. Nohadon wrote a book of morals, Tanavast holds a shard of god's own sense of Honor. Did they both start judging people 'lesser' than them? Did they want to control them? Teach them? I think this is the same thing that happened with the Radiants too. They were not just scared of having too much power, they were scared of wanting it too. Let's take the Windrunners. Alethela was the training ground for the Radiants, the supposed Silver Kingdom of War. Windrunners are the most numerous Radiants in any era. Their qualities are protection and leadership. Jezrien himself was 'King' of the Heralds. Ever notice the fact that the Alethi, the the most warlike culture on Roshar, have river near them called the Windrunner? Kholins' color is Blue? The Radiants had begun to have major political power too. I suspect that they had started becoming highly integrated with Royalty. This is what causes the lighteyes( people who definitely are descendants of Radiants) to become an upper caste. I think it is very likely that the Radiants, who are connected to literal pieces of Divinity and get Superpowers, also started getting the Divine right to rule... This wouldn't be a problem before the last Desolation because no one has time to seize control when they are busy fighting for survival. The Radiants never had too much power when fighting the Singers. But after Aharitiem, the Radiants saw themselves getting too greedy and judgemental. We know from the gemstone archives that the Radiants started squabbling on many things with each other. Tldr: The Radiants merged with the Royalty and got too powerful. They got scared and left their power alone

You just said Sadeas was untouchable. Wdym? Sadeas literally said that he would oppose Dalinar out of pure petty pride. There was no peace or reconciliation possible. Sadeas also showed his cunning throughout the two books. When looking at his body, someone genuinely says something along the lines of, "we never really needed his help"

Just a note, I think the narrative itself is on Adolin's side in that he has nothing to feel bad about. Dalinar's evil acts can't be compared to the killing of Sadeas.

I fully agree. I think in the end the narrative will support Adolin over Dalinar here. A strict Honor code will lead to situations like Szeth, who has completely abandoned his own free will and responsibility to choose. But I know many people still aren't satisfied with Sadeas' death

But isn't Adolin too good of a person now for that to happen now? As he is reawakening Maya?

That is very true. But since Dalinar has been set up for his character flaws being controlling and judging, I have a feeling Dalinar will concede in the end that killing Sadeas was the right move That wob is talking about the impending Dalinar and Adolin rift that we are seeing now. Brandon keeps talking about implications because that will be the only real consequence. There will not actually be political consequences for Sadeas' murder because keeping Sadeas alive benefits no one. Dalinar is too stubborn and hard headed to see nuance.

Because it was completely the right thing to do. Now that Book5 is coming out. What does everyone feel about this statement?

Then there wouldn't be a reason for Tanavast to change quickly. He was on the humans side for a long time, before going back completely to the other side ( they would destroy Roshar) right when he was dying. By your theory, there would be no connection to his death at all and Honor's disdain for humans would show gradually and surprise no one when he starts hating them. This view also doesn't explain why Stormfather who hated the heralds for their broken oaths suddenly gains empathy for them and their suffering, just by bonding Dalinar. He even blames Dalinar for this understanding. Syl acknowledges in RoW that she is changing, which spren are not supposed to. Stormfather does not want to change and does not want to be a human, that he is a storm and so should not change. But by Dalinar, he is already changing, which Dalinar acknowledges recently. The Sibling specifically says that leaving the shard without a vessel would make the power resent humanity. Not that anyone with Honor would immediately hate humanity for their broken oaths. The shard is starting to resent Honor now. This resentment is new

Now I am imagining Stormlight 5 ending with Taravangian fleeing for his dear life while Honor Szeth chases him across the Cosmere And all the whole Szeth will insist that he has no real choice and he just has to do this...

A Kaladin of windspren

True Dalinar might be a very good vessel for a changing Honor. Dalinar finds it hard to give up power, which originally isn't aligned with Tanavast Honor as we know it, but now? Maybe the Stormfather is wrong, maybe the power will not reject someone who wants it. Yikes... Brandon did say that Dalinar embodies the best and worst of both Honor and Odium..... That quote is definitely interesting in this context. Maybe Szeth might become Honor... Not as a good thing.

For corrupted spren: A deep cringe of corrupted shamespren ...

Put a spoiler in the title just in case So this quote is the one that fascinates me and it should fascinate you too. Let me explain Why would the power of Honor resent humanity? Because Honor the shard is not well connected to the physical realm anymore. The physical form of an object is the imperfect version of a perfect Spiritual Ideal filtered down. That is, everything in the physical realm is fundamentally imperfect, even people. Meaning people don't ever have perfect Honor in the real world. Everyone makes mistakes or lies or breaks promises or changes... And usually the Shard of Honor is okay with that.... As there is a person as it's vessel. This is a theme we see over and over and over again. People change, Spren don't. Humans break oaths, but spren can't. The stormfather first hated the heralds, and then found empathy for them when he bonds Dalinar. Why? Because he had a better connection to the physical realm and understood that humans aren't perfect at all. Syl starts changing and maturing after her bond. There is Honor in redemption. It is the capability of breaking oaths that makes keeping them so much more important. This is the debate between Windrunners and Skybreakers. Or atleast between Honorspren and Highspren right now. Highspren don't like a changing moral code or person or anything prolly. While Notum knows that the ability to change makes is important. In the Radiant Archives, one person said "Honor is changing" Other things we learn about the time period of the recreance is that Honor stopped believing in the radiants and started raving, believing that they would destroy Roshar. Why? Because Tanavast had been dying for thousands of years. Meaning, his physical form was dying. Honor was becoming more rigid, more unchangeable. Something like Stormfather. Or the Highspren. Basically Honor the shardic power is connected to The Stormfather, who is spren only connected to a physical storm, not a person. Hoid said that leave a piece of investiture alone, it's starts becoming alive. TAnavast has been dead for 2000 years... Did the power change enough. is Honor now closer to something like Law? Or Order? What would that mean? It would mean that instead of Kaladin or Dalinar or even Adolin being the obvious options of Honor's vessel, the power might actually choose someone else. Someone with a stricter moral code Like Szeth... Or Nale. That can't be good for Roshar WE saw that moments after Rayse dying, the power itself pleaded to Taravangian to take the power. Even worse case scenario, Taravangian feels all of the pain that is occurring in everyone in the cosmere. He wants to change the world, save the world, do something radical. A Honor that is becoming more rigid will impose stricter moral codes and harsher judgements on those breaking it. The power of a god will come to resent humanity. And it will try to impose order on the people. Something Taravangian is not opposed to. Cultivation did say she wanted Tara to weild the power of Odium with honor... Just to clarify, I am saying that the power has changed subtly, not enough to completely change the name to Law or Order. But the power itself might seek someone like Szeth or Nale instead of Kal and Dalinar. Scary

Well if touching Dalinar ( getting a connection to Dalinar) is enough to manipulate Dalinar's Bond, then i can see Ishar having a connection to SF and being able to hijack his mind. Stealing Dalinar's Bond is one step past Ishar, but replacing SF for a few seconds is a direct step. Since it is a human taking action (swearing an oath) to bond a spren, and the spren probably can't break the bond easily if the human is fully following his paths, it would be easier for Ishar to break the bonds from his side. If you remember, Dalinar almost forced(outright demands) SF into the bond, even though SF was very unwilling. Almost like if Dalinar is sincere enough, SF has to accept those words.

To me it felt like setting up that Ishar could 'hijack' the bond at a crucial moment, and Dalinar would not know that he was talking to Ishar not the stormfather

In TSM We know that Dawnshards don't just supercharge, there is a theme to each one- change, bind maybe etc. Aimia is the home of soulcasters. To me it seems possible that Ishar's bondsmith abilities on Ashyn might have come from a Dawnshard of Connection. The quote that dawnshards can bind anything is highly suggestive. Gavilar had it 5 years before. I don't think that's how that works at all. Nor does it make sense. Who and why would anyone do that? It's much more easier to believe that they used something that they had idea the destructive potential of. I know that Roaboniel was tricking Navani. What I meant when I said it was a wierd lie is that it was wierd narratively. "An opposite was used, from the things I have been told" Brandon sets up that Honor was killed by anti light( she thinks it's voidlight, she is wrong) "Gavilar was trying to kill a god" A big revelation for Navani and the reader. And it makes perfect sense that gavilar's megalomania that we don't question it. "We could never have made enough" Suddenly all that set up is nothing. The war wouldn't end like that, as Odium is still unkillable( except nightblood). It is very unsatisfying revelation. Brandon never does that. Honor's death is a mystery, and the direct clue says that anti light was used. My idea comes from the fact that anti light requires a connection to that part shard. This is the only way that I can think about how connection can be outwardly destructive. How Ishar's bondsmithing may have destroyed Ashyn so completely. I conclusion, I think Ashyn and Honor got a taste of anti-light I know this is a double post, but I would also like some discussion on the other points I am pretty confident on. That Koravari and tanavast were Dawnshard holders. And that their shards are as a result very similar to their Dawnshard intents. Thoughts? Yay or nay?

Almost definitely

I imagine it would be easy to destroy a planet with a Dawnshard. Anti light was introduced as a weopen to kill gods. Then Raboniel says that's how Honor died. Which makes no sense because nothing can make enough of it to kill a shard. It's a very wieed lie that feels like Raboniel is making unintended foreshadowing. the one thing we know that can kill a god? A Dawnshard.

Tldr: Tanavast and Koravari were Dawnshard holders. The four dawnshards are based on the four spiritual attributes. Ishar held a Dawnshard, and used it to create Anti-light and destroy Ashyn. So I have always wondered why the Stormlight Archive is the world where we have seen the effects of Multiple dawnshards, instead of sprinkling them around the rest of the Cosmere. We have the Change Dawnshard that Rysn found in Aimia, home of soulcasting. We have a Dawnshard that can "bind" anything Voidish and Mortal And we have Hoid,(The Sunlit Man spoilers) Why? I think it's because the Dawnshards are inherently connected to Roshar. I think Honor and Cultivation were Dawnshard holders, who gave those up to accept a shard. Let me Explain Something I think everyone gets wrong is that The Change Dawnshard isn't about any change. It is specifically Positive Change And this makes sense. These are commands from Adonalsium, who is very similar to the Abrahamic God. The commands will be benevolent. And what is Cultivation about if not transformation? Positive Change? Growth, nurturing, cutting away the the bad to make space for the good? Very suspicious that these two ideas are so damn similar, right? But it's not a coincidence. Koravari got the shard of Cultivation, because it was suited to the Dawnshard she used during the shattering, the (Positive) Change Dawnshard. Since you can't hold both a shard and a Dawnshard (dawnshards supercharge magic already), she dropped hers on Roshar. Let's also notice that Aimia is the home of soulcasters and that remaking is all about "Identity" And i think her lover, Tanavast was in the same situation. We know that Ishar used a Dawnshard to destroy Ashyn accidentally. We know he was a bondsmith before Roshar But Ishar got an honorblade on Roshar? So how was he a Bondsmith? Well we know the quote " Dawnshard that can "bind" anything Voidish and Mortal". But that doesn't seem to be the "change" Dawnshard. That is more connected to soulcasting. It also makes more sense to me that Ishar's abilities are connected to the Dawnshard he was already experimenting with. What if the Dawnshard had powers related to Connection? Something like " Bind" or "Touch" or "Connect"? The Bondsmith becomes the title of someone who has held this Dawnshard of Connection. Ishar held a Dawnshard on Ashyn. And how did it get on Ashyn? Well is it any coincidence that Honor just happens to be about bonds, connection and oaths? Tanavast's shard is very similar to the Dawnshard he used for the shattering. After getting his shard, he dropped his Dawnshard on Ashyn instead of Roshar probably for equality between the two planets. They dropped them in the rosharan system so that they could keep an eye on these powerful weapons. Remember Hoid was going to get a shard, but he declined. Tanavast and Koravari could easily have been dawnshards. Which sadly means that making a 4×4 model of Dawnshard and shard intents probably won't work out. Tanavast and Koravari match up too perfectly. Let's talk about Hoid's Dawnshard. He made an oath to "be where he was needed to be". He uses Fortune for that effect. What if this ability was connected to his Dawnshard? We know it can give you the ability to-(TSM spoilers) I can guess what the single word command could be- "Be". If you had access to immense ammount of fortune, you would be living exactly how your life is meant to go, you would be truly alive with no uncertainty or anxiety, following your god- given sense of intuition. Having fortune will help you live your life to the fullest. You could have the surest identity, have the best friends, have magic but still have bad luck. However, if you have fortune, you are on a god given destiny, which If the command is "Be", it could be the reason why Hoid can't eat meat. Living your own life to the fullest might be beneficial to everybody living their life well. This Dawnshard is about Life itself. That's why it hates violence So now we have a Dawnshard of Connection, of Fortune, and of Identity ( because change is about Identity)( What is Positive Change if not Finding your true identity?). These are all spiritual attributes. That is what I think Dawnshards are. The creation of the Spiritual Realm to cognitive to physical. The last Dawnshard then would be about "Investiture". The command word could just be "invest". This would be the command that lets magic be real in the cosmere. The other three technically could exist in the real world, if the spiritual realm exists in our world. The fourth Dawnshard is the one that makes the cosmere special. But how can you use Connection to destroy a Planet? One word answer- "Anti-Light" Navani can't connect to Honor right now, so she chooses to connect to Odium and use it against Odium. That is what anti void light is. Voidlight used to destroy voidlight. Odium against Odium. Later... It takes connection to shard to create its anti light. This is how ishar destroyed Ashyn. Using his connection based powers, he created Anti light. Remember that Kalak is not surprised to see Anti-Light in the prologue. He even knows that it can be used to destroy the Fused. How, if it is a new invention? It isn't, Ishar already used it one and destroyed a planet before Kalak already.

It also confirms to me, 90% sure, that Shallan will go to the Spiritual Realm and experience it. Infact theory time, since spiritual realm has both the past and the future, this will be how Brandon gives us info about shallan's past without dedicated flashbacks. She will have a set of quick visions of the past and the future , like Rey touching the lightsaber in the Force Awakens, and we will have a bunch of theory fodder for the next 5 years. Chana can be revealed as shallan's mom, while also teasing about future Shallan and ghostblood fights in the cosmere.

I think this is exactly what happened. This is a very human reaction and the whole point of the book is that he doesn't have time for it to truly sink in. The book opens with rebeke in shock after her brother died too.

But the death rattles call Shallan a man. Not literal at all. "Two men come from the chasma with a heart in their hand, and i know I have seen true glory" (Talking about kal and Shallan coming out of the chasms in Wor)

Well, Renarin hasn't done anything major yet. He is a just a Radiant who helps in the war. Obviously he will be referred to as the 'son of thorns' when Dalinar is basically creating a new religion. It's like how the public will think of teft as kal's second in command

I think it can easily be both the fan response and in-world response since they are caused by very similar things. What I meant was that a lot of Jasnah can be covered with utilitarianism, atheism, her intelligence. The character, to me atleast, is deceptively simple and the only reason for confusion is the controversial beliefs she has for fans and characters alike. She is literally a utilitarian in a world where the god is Honor and the main villain is a utilitarian. She is an atheist in a medieval world seemingly filled with gods, which is very confusing to more religious people. The context makes it confusing, but she herself isn't. You don't need to know the entire past of a character to understand them. Like nothing in this reading has really surprised me about the character you know? Just because she is a main character doesn't mean that she is automatically complicated. Kaladin Shallan Dalinar Adolin Venli Lift aren't very complicated characters right?