Wind and Truth Full Book Reactions (Cosmere Edition)

[Sedside she/her]

9 hours ago, Fallen_Ash said:

I know he can write better couples, so IS it on purpose?! I'd love to ask him why Adolin, who can have chemistry with a dead Shardeblade, doesn't have any (or as much) with his own wife. I'm sure I'm reading too much into it, and it's just written that way because that's what the plot demands, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it as underdeveloped and underwhelming. With 1330 pages, I wish Brandon had cut Kaladin's "I'm glad she rejected me" musing and devoted a little more time to having them be a couple in a situation other than the shower. 

You are definitely not the only one. We even have an example of a decent romance in the very same book - Rlainarin. I enjoyed reading them, they were amazing. And when I read Shadolin I think Sanderson is either participating in some kind of writers' contest to write the most nauseating romance in the entire history, or desperately trying to convince me they are good by shoving this idea directly into my head. I was so annoyed by reading all of this "oh he missed Shallan so much, how is she there?", "oh she missed Adolin so much, how is he there?" stuff. Or this:

Spoiler

"He ate, wishing Shallan were here. They often ate together, ignoring proprieties of gendered dining. He missed the quips, the silliness mixed with truly poignant questions about his day, his feelings, his choices."

Dear Mr. Sanderson, could I possibly read this scene, and draw my own conclusions about it, then decide if I agree with Adolin's conclusions or not? If it can be done like this, why bother writing everything else? I mean, why waste two chapters if you can just write "Taravangian brilliantly outplayed Jasnah using her own arguments and philosophy against her. He made several precise blows exactly where her views were flawed or twisted and that convinced Fen of Jasnah's hypocrisy. Later this day Thaylen decided to join the enemy". Or maybe "Kaladin played the flute and Nale became a good guy"? Or if you think romance isn't important enough for that, maybe don't write it at all? We already know from RoW that Shallan and Adolin are good together, no need to repeat it?
Or why do I have to read this?

Spoiler

May hesitated, the pen on her page halting. “Well, yes. How do you know that?”

“Shallan talks about it,” he said, smiling. She reportedly was still on her secret mission to deal with the Ghostbloods. Her squires weren’t worried, but Adolin couldn’t help but be anxious. How would he know if she was in trouble and needed help? What if it was weeks until he saw her again? She could handle herself, but … storms, he hoped she was safe.

“And you actually listen when she speaks of womanly things?” May asked. “When we were not-courting, all I could get you to listen to was historical battle accounts.”

“Guess I’m expanding my horizons.”

May huffed, making another note. “She’s good for you.”

“You have no idea. Any word from Urithiru today?”

Or this:

Spoiler

“I am glad,” May said, continuing to write, “that you and I did not work out as a couple. I think we’d have hated one another eventually. I’m glad you found someone better suited to you, though I thought you and Shallan a strange pairing until I realized something. You both share the same sense of whimsy.”

“I don’t have a whimsical bone in my body, May.”

May eyed him, then kept writing.

“What?” he said.

“I thought you more self-aware than that,” she said. “Don’t you have a dinner appointment with the emperor?”

Is it how people talk in real life? The world is ending, the enemy is at the gate, and May Aladar, the character we know almost nothing about, as well as we know absolutely nothing about her relationship with Adolin, brings up their "non-courting", says she is his "ex" (what? is it even a word on Roshar?), despite the fact that they were "NON-courting", and admits how glad she is that it didn't work for them and how good Shallan is for Adolin? Why is this woman deliberately saying something like "when I was your girlfriend you didn't pay any attention to me, and now when you are with another woman you treat her absolutely differenty, I am so glad about it!" Why is she repeating exactly the same idea Kaladin said earlier? "I'm glad it didn't happen, we would be so bad for each other, and you two are so good for each other, I think I'm going to cry from happiness for you now".

Why should I read about Shallan rejecting Kaladin (from her standpoint), or Adolin's victory over a rival? What kind of rivalry was that even? Was it the example of a competition lost by not showing up, or something? Why should I read about Kaladin's emotionless mask on their wedding and brooding in the corner? What should it mean? "Oh, he is so upset I've rejected him, but he stands tall?" Screw you, Shallan. And this is exactly after she admits that his present helped her and relieved her anxiety, and now she is being mean towards him? I couldn't even read the chapter after this, I've skipped it almost entirely, because this treatment of Kaladin infuriated me. What is this all for? Why should Sanderson even address this issue if it's not an issue anymore? Does he think we are stupid? Or does he just like rubbing salt to our wounds inflicted by the whole stupid triangle thing that should have never existed in the first place?

I remembered this WoB while reading WaT. I have no idea if questioner's friend is feeling very pleased now or not, but I can say what makes me feel pleased it went this way. It is the fact that Shallan's character has turned into such an utter garbage, that I'm pleased Kaladin doesn't have to deal with her now. She definitely doesn't deserve her second chance with the Herald of Second Chances.

Edited December 13, 2024 by Sedside
formatting

[Immortal Platypus]

2 hours ago, Rorzikel said:

Honor plus Cultivation's rhythm was called the Rhythm of the Tower back in RoW.

Bolding mine, source is RoW 110.

Ah. I missed that. Thank you.

In addition to this, I have reread and seen that as Retribution's Perpendicularity fills up where Odium's had been, the song Venli hears is the Rhythm of War, so I guess it's probably something to do with Taravangian's Intent upon picking up Shards.

[Soccorro]

2 hours ago, Sedside said:

Sanderson is either participating in some kind of writers' contest to write the most nauseating romance in the entire history

Oof. That’s a bit harsh. Twilight exists, you know.

I just realised that Shallan and Adolin are separated since Oathbringer. So, since they became a married couple. They share an arc in book 4, but barely interact. Shallan was doing her own thing and Adolin was doing his own thing. They’re not together again in this book and they end the book separated again. We didn’t see much of them together, we just read their thoughts about the time they spent together offscreen. I guess, if they weren’t a couple, not that much would have changed about the plot and their individual arcs.

[Aon Tia she/her]

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

The world is ending, the enemy is at the gate, and May Aladar, the character we know almost nothing about, as well as we know absolutely nothing about her relationship with Adolin, brings up their "non-courting", says she is his "ex" (what? is it even a word on Roshar?), despite the fact that they were "NON-courting", and admits how glad she is that it didn't work for them and how good Shallan is for Adolin? Why is this woman deliberately saying something like "when I was your girlfriend you didn't pay any attention to me, and now when you are with another woman you treat her absolutely differenty, I am so glad about it!"

it is possible that May is not fully over Adolin. May be she liked him or the idea of their politically advantageous to each other more than he did. It happens you know, sometimes when people meet their ex after a long time, their ex may talk like this, like still trying to convince herself. 

Kaladin also, may be has moved on but sometimes when you see your ex-crush with her husband, you can go, well we would never have worked out or who knows may be we would have but it was never meant to be. It is normal you know. 

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

Screw you, Shallan. And this is exactly after she admits that his present helped her and relieved her anxiety, and now she is being mean towards him? I couldn't even read the chapter after this, I've skipped it almost entirely, because this treatment of Kaladin infuriated me. What is this all for? Why should Sanderson even address this issue if it's not an issue anymore? Does he think we are stupid? Or does he just like rubbing salt to our wounds

May be, it is time to move on from the kaladin shallan ship. 

Quote

Why should I read about Kaladin's emotionless mask on their wedding and brooding in the corner? What should it mean? "Oh, he is so upset I've rejected him, but he stands tall?"

I think this is more about how Kaladin was not doing very well at the end of OB, he started falling into his depression more heavily after kholinar disaster and elhokar's death. She as a friend is just noticing her friend not doing well. 

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

I was so annoyed by reading all of this "oh he missed Shallan so much, how is she there?", "oh she missed Adolin so much, how is he there?" stuff.

it is funny because if they had not once said in the book that they miss each other, then fans would have said they are not a good couple, they do not even miss each other. 

And when they went to their respective missions, they did not expect shallan to have to goto the spriritual realm or for her to be stranded for 8 days, dude is worried about his wife and he is not allowed to say that he misses her!

and shallan when she is in the presence of a new budding romance of relarin, is not allowed to think and miss Adolin. 

 

Edited December 13, 2024 by Aon Tia

[Sedside she/her]

46 minutes ago, Aon Tia said:

it is possible that May is not fully over Adolin. May be she liked him or the idea of their politically advantageous to each other more than he did. It happens you know, sometimes when people meet their ex after a long time, their ex may talk like this, like still trying to convince herself. 

Does it contribute to the book? Is it so necessary to write?

46 minutes ago, Aon Tia said:

It is normal you know. 

I ask you to change your tone in referring to me to the more respectful one, if it's possible, please. I was not condescending on anyone, I'm just sharing my opinion about the book, which, I believe, this topic encourages.

46 minutes ago, Aon Tia said:

May be, it is time to move on from the kaladin shallan ship. 

I suppose you haven't read my post carefully enough, or maybe I worded myself badly, sorry, I'm not native, but let me quote my own post again:

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

We already know from RoW that Shallan and Adolin are good together, no need to repeat it?

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

Why should Sanderson even address this issue if it's not an issue anymore?

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

It is the fact that Shallan's character has turned into such an utter garbage, that I'm pleased Kaladin doesn't have to deal with her now.

My claim is not that it didn't happen, my claim is about Kaladin being treated like this. They are friends, he gave her a good gift, and there is no single word of appreciation of him from her side. Just silly talks of rejection and rivalry. And "relationship of shared pain", for storms' sake.

46 minutes ago, Aon Tia said:

I think this is more about how Kaladin was not doing very well at the end of OB, he started falling into his depression more heavily after kholinar disaster and elhokar's death. She as a friend is just noticing her friend not doing well. 

I don't see any mentions of his bad state, or Kholinar, or Elhokar's death here:

Spoiler

Kaladin stood in a back corner, his face an emotionless mask. She tried not to think of choosing Adolin as a rejection of Kaladin—more an acknowledgment that for all the powerful moments they’d experienced together, their relationship was not one of romance but shared pain.

 

46 minutes ago, Aon Tia said:

it is funny because if they had not once said in the book that they miss each other, then fans would have said they are not a good couple, they do not even miss each other. 

And when they went to their respective missions, they did not expect shallan to have to goto the spriritual realm or for her to be stranded for 8 days, dude is worried about his wife and he is not allowed to say that he misses her!

and shallan when she is in the presence of a new budding romance of relarin, is not allowed to think and miss Adolin. 

I never said they are not allowed to do this. I said it's repetitive and annoying, like checking the boxes on the list. Like there is some kind of density of them missing each other. Adolin misses Shallan every 3 chapters, Shallan misses Adolin every 5 chapters. Please ensure they still love each other no matter what. And yes, I agree, I think it's written solely for the fan service.

Edited December 13, 2024 by Sedside
double post

[Aon Tia she/her]

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

They are friends, he gave her a good gift, and there is no single word of appreciation of him from her side. Just silly talks of rejection and rivalry. And "relationship of shared pain", for storms' sake.

Well that is true. Shallan is not at all perfect. She completely ignored Kal after their Chasm scene which should have meant more to both of them. It clearly meant something to Kal. She is a bit immature, she is dismissive of him probably because she wants Adolin and does not want any doubt to creep in. She really maintains her distance from him in OB. But has probably enjoyed knowing that she had choice! Must be a novel experience for her! She has not had much exposure in society. 

 

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

I said it's repetitive and annoying,

People in love are annoying!! 

Hey, sorry about the tone, my only defense is that English is like my third language and when I said "It is normal you know", it was not meant to be disrespectful. 

 

[BinarySecond]

17 hours ago, DSCrankshaw said:

This occurred to me as well. But for two things: 1. I think we may be confusing Notum with Captain Ico, who was the one that kept his father on his ship,  and 2. The story is that all the Honorspren died in the Recreance, except Syl, and the Honorspren of today are descended from the ones the Stormfather created afterwards. 

I just looked up Notum's coppermind page; there was an error in RoW that references his dead father.

[Qviqve]

I feel like I’m a bit late to the party, and some of you might already have the same opinions or theories as me, but before I read what others have said, I wanted to share my initial thoughts. Sorry if some of these points have already been discussed.

Here we go! My first impression was WOW! So many implications (as expected) for the entire Cosmere, and an interesting setup for the second part of the Stormlight Archive arc.
I’ll try my best to organize my thoughts.

THE BOOK

I really liked the book. Some of the main events were foreshadowed, and it felt like most of them were developed in a satisfying way. In my opinion, it wouldn’t be fair to blame Brandon for some of the plot twists being predictable. If there are clues and you pick up on them (like many of you have done so well), it’s pretty reasonable to predict what’s going to happen.

Shallan’s mother: There’s something odd there. It fits, but it doesn’t feel entirely right to me. Heralds’ bodies are made of pure investiture, so how could not just one, but three children be born from them? Maybe we need more lessons in Realmatic Theory.

Do they all have a Connection to Honor? Same question with Odium, since we know the Oathpact was possible because of that Connection. Was Ishar “contaminating” the Davar family (except Helaran, who was a bastard) in the same way he did with the other Heralds?

The Gav and baby champ theory: More like a cliché. As Taravangian said, another innocent might work too. Having Gav in the story felt like a coincidence (or a fan theory twist), but not necessarily needed. Still, I think he’ll play an important role in the second arc.

The pacing of the book was pretty fast, especially compared to Rhythm of War. I’m not sure if it was because I was so eager to read the next chapter, or if it was just the fast pace of the story, but I liked it. I didn’t expect this ending, but it feels right to me. Actually, this book and event could be the turning point for the Cosmere, a call to action for all the Shard-planets.

ROSHAR

Interesting game of Towers, 90% of the planet is controlled by Taravangian, but with the "Sunmaker Gambit," we’ll see if the other 10% gets help from outer worlds.

The singers seem to now control the perpendicularity of Retribution, the only entrance to Roshar?

Unbounded Shardplates and Shardblades! Posible mercenary companies plots and books?

What happened to the Mink? Will he become some kind of leader of the Floating Island Kingdom?

CHARACTERS

Dalinar: Oh Dalinar, the great hero, the one who was supposed to save the world, and now he becomes the one who brings war to the entire Cosmere. A closed arc where he realizes that the only way forward isn’t by punching someone, and that he doesn’t need to solve all the problems himself. I was expecting Dalinar to die, but not to unleash Big-T.

Kaladin: "Honor is dead, but I’ll see what I can do." - Nothing more to say here. For me, Kaladin’s entire story feels ok right now,  self-knowledge for self-improvement, living for himself, ruled by his own decisions and feelings. As the chapter arcs in the epilogues foreshadow, he’ll be the stepping stone to the reconstruction and maybe the freedom of Roshar.

Taravangian: The development of this character was amazing. Now we have a real villain or antagonist. Not pure evil, but one we understand, not necessarily follow or approve of, but we get it.

The Ghostbloods in Roshar feel a bit lackluster to me. Both Iyatil and Mraize didn’t really perform well enough for the Rosharan Bransh to be as important in the future. Personally, I expected more from them. That said, the Lightweavers and Ghostbloods are now in a truce—let’s see if that holds up and develops into a new organization that could stand in opposition to Retribution’s plans.

Shallan: Now that the Spren are free to leave Roshar, she could become a Worldhopper, just like we all hoped. Will they decide, after talking with Adolin, to raise their child/children off Roshar (similarities with Iyatil here!)?

Adolin & Yanagawn: I liked their arc, their friendship, and the foundation of a new Silver Kingdom. Now Azir is the beacon of light on Roshar. Let’s see if Adolin leaves him whenever he can to be with Shallan.

Lift: She’s changing now, and will be trained by Vasher… positioned to be one of the main players in the second arc. And now she has her chicken back!

Sig: Now we know a little more about Nomad (and Aux 1-21-24), but there are still many things left open.

COSMERE

According to the letters in Day 5, Endowment has a plan to deal with Odium. For half the book, I thought it might be Vasher, a Returned called Warbreaker, using his Divine Breath to stop the Desolation and end the cycle. But what if the war he’s meant to stop is a bigger one? One that could involve the entire Cosmere?

Also, Endowment knows the real purpose of Hoid. She says Hoid is interested in planets with legends about people coming back from death. Is he trying to become something else?

Time dilation on Roshar could mean that the new main characters, and some of the older ones, might be ready to be part of the space age.

Spren can now leave Roshar, and some Highspren could be heading toward Scadrial (I’m looking at you, mysterious Coinshots who ask for permission to sink boats…).

Now we have the last Shard, ‘Reason,’ and a new Dawnshard named ‘Exist.’ Could Reason have been hiding because it is ‘reasonably’ the one that could mediate between two Intents?

[Nef]

2 hours ago, Qviqve said:

Shallan’s mother: There’s something odd there. It fits, but it doesn’t feel entirely right to me. Heralds’ bodies are made of pure investiture, so how could not just one, but three children be born from them? Maybe we need more lessons in Realmatic Theory.

I think you're suppose to draw a parallel to real life physics where mass and energy is seen to be converted from one another in nature. So with super advanced tech you could create a perfect replica body from "pure energy".

Edited December 13, 2024 by Nef

[Sedside she/her]

I have complicated feelings about this book, because for me it felt somewhat disconnected. There are things I absolutely loved about it, things I was somewhat indifferent about, and things that made me cringe. I’ll start with the things I liked.

1. Shinovar arc. It was amazing from the beginning till the end. The ending was not a surprise for me, I was sure Kaladin is getting some kind of immortality (born onto eternity hehe), but it still was done in a very good and satisfying way. Also loved the way everyone will probably think he is dead now. It sets up a huge potential for his dramatic appearance in the second half, that could be even more spectacular than his joining the Narak battle in WoR. Szeth was my second favorite character since his first interlude in WoK, and I loved him even more in this book. I also always liked Nale, maybe it’s my weakness for tall imposing dangerous guys in black uniform, but whatever Their company was adorable - Kaladin, Szeth, Syl, 12124, Nightblood, Nale, I enjoyed their interactions, and Kaladin’s fight and the following conversation with Nale is my favorite sequence in this book. I will definitely reread this arc in the future someday.
2. Jasnah. This is my second favorite after Shinovar. I reveled in her dialogue with Taravangian, that was probably one of the most satisfying villain-protagonist interactions in the series for me so far.
3. Surprisingy, Adolin. I never liked him, he always read to me as a plot device and kind of a marysueish golden boy getting everything he wants with no efforts, having no prominent struggles or character growth. I was yearning to see something that would make his character make sense to me, and I got it in this book. I’d still rather him be OC, but the way it turned out is somewhat satisfying for me too. I loved him fighting among the ordinary spearmen and his musings about it. Also loved the way he found his inspiration in Kaladin and b4. I can’t say I liked Azir arc entirely, but Adolin’s inner struggles were nicely done, and I’m glad to finally have some sympathy and compassion for him.
4. Rlainarin. I loved these too! Their interactions and the buildup of their romantic relationship was so sweet, I was smiling like an idiot every time I was reading it.

Neutral:

1. Shattered Plains arc. It felt… messy. Fight-fight-fight, some expendable characters dying (Leyten, I feel so sorry that it has to be you, my love), retreat, then some kind of bureaucratic manipulation - and the good guys win. Well… okay. The new variety of Fused were somewhat… useless? Or maybe I just don’t get it, but I honestly kinda don’t care.
2. Roshar’s backstory. I’m not a huge fan of worldbuilding for the sake of worldbuilding, and I can’t say there was any kind of big reveals in it. It’s nice to know what happened in the past, but it’s not like there was anything stunning about it. The only things that sparkled some emotions in me were the cause of the Recreance and Tanavast’s death, and a glimpse of Taln’s backstory. I’m looking forward for his flashbacks now too.
3. Taravangian’s interludes. They simply… were. Taravangian was an impressive and dramatic character for me, but in this book he felt just another bland villain. Him destroying Kharbranth felt somewhat like just for the shock value, and it was reverted in the end anyway, so it turned out somewhat cheap eventually.

Didn’t like.

1. Shallan. She was probably the most complex and intriguing character I've ever read. I liked her in WoK, adored her in WoR, was confused and intrigued with her in OB, but then it looks like Brandon has lost her. Her RoW arc felt kind of empty, especially when it turned out that all the spy, Ialai murder and Formless stuff kind of went nowhere. But there still was hope because of her remaining secrets and the Ghostbloods affair. I felt hope when Formless appeared again, I was like "aha, this is not the end of Formless, I knew it!", and then I was so hugely disappointed it turned out to be Iyatil. The Ghostbloods plot was failed spectacularly, even the potentially complex interaction with Mraize turned out to be yet another murder. All of the building potential was just wasted. What about this "I kill all of my mentors"? It was solved by "no you don't, it's ok" - and then she kills her mentor. No Fifth Truth as well? So far, her 4-5 books arc can be summarized as "you have a problem? it's not a problem, forget it". And what was Testament needed for? She influenced nothing, she was just there and that's it. Overall, it looks like Shallan just moved from point A to point B, removed the Ghostbloods from the book, and got pregnant. Her whole arc can be described as "she loves Adolin, her mom was a Herald", and that's it. And, as I've already said in previous posts, I absolutely despised her treatment of Kaladin in her wedding flashback, and honestly I hate her for that. I've never hated any SA character previously, not even Moash or Sadeas, I actually liked Sadeas. But Shallan managed to do the impossible thing and make me hate a fictional character. I'm very upset about it and hope it will change in the next books, but for now I just can't believe that I could have started liking Adolin and hating his wife. That's incredible.
2. Ba-Ado-Mishram. What was it all about? Why were Ghostbloods seeking her? What did her release mean for Roshar? What is so scary about her? What were her endless threats about? So much buildup turned out to nothing.
3. Chana. I understand that this reveal could have been stunning if some clever Sharders haven't figured it out, but then what? How did it influence the story? Shallan was like "okay, I've killed a Herald and started a Desolation, stuff happens, let's move on and think about Adolin a little bit more".
4. Tons of another potential buildup turned to nothing. Anti-light? It was so threatening, so many possible dangers coming from it, but eventually the only thing it has accomplished were the perpendicularity collapse and Leyten's spren death. Kaladin's rock? Not even addressed. Lucinthia joining the Windrunners? Forget it. Abidi? Another comic villain. El? Did nothing. Dai-Gonarthis? Ultimate is on cooldown, chill.
5. Sudden rules revision. We can't release Odium from the planet because he is so scary and can kill all the Shards, but then suddenly we can, and somehow it's a brilliant decision. Heralds are being tortured in Damnation between Returns, and it's the sole core of the Oathpact problem, then suddenly there is a solution for that and it's not necessary for them to suffer. Spren can't have sapience in the Physical Realm with no Radiant bond, then suddenly they can, because people started thinking about them. Somehow they started thinking about them on the third of the Final Ten Days, and not during the year of timeskip between OB and RoW. Why weren't they able to do it before Recreance then? Weren't people thinking about them then, when the world was flooded with Radiants? Being able to get to the Physical Realm was the sole reason for spren to form a Radiant bond, but why should spren have these limitations, obligations to turn into weapons for Radiants, being unable to enter Shadesmar when they want, if they can experience the Physical Realm on their own when people think about them? Deadeyes can't talk or think, but suddenly they can, and there is even no explanation why. And now they can even act like blades and plates for Unoathed. We need an anchor to move between visions, then suddenly we don't.
6. Introduction of the Shard pool on the Shattered Plains. It's just poorly written. First, stones tell Venli to go there, then we are just being told about the pool, the fourth moon and other stuff. It looks like a bit of new information just dropped on us from nowhere, and it looks bad. It also goes nowhere, at least within this book.
7. Too many loose ends. What's up with Helaran? Shallan's father's prophetic lullaby? Boots meme? Sadeas's murder? Musicspren? Puuli's prophecy? Girl Who Looked Up? Chasm sequence? Tarah? Shallan's other brothers? Rock? Cord? Sons of Honor? Envisagers? Of course there always is a chance that some of these things can be addressed in the future books, but it's a long wait, and it feels a little frustrating to have these questions handing in the air.
8. While there are a lot of totally unaddressed issues, other issues just feel repetitive or simply unnecessary. Adolin teaching Yanagawn to fight in Shardplate? But we already know what Shardplate is, why do it again? Over nine thousand names of towers game rules no one will ever remember. Dalinar struggling with the same morale problems again and again. Everyone saying how amazing Adolin is.
9. Reversal of the things that shouldn't be reversed. Dalinar had already dealed with his flaws and sins in OB, but suddenly they come to the stage again and deal drastic amount of damage. This is just inconsistent storytelling. We have the Herald of Second Chances in the very same book, and here we get a message that no matter what you do, no matter how hard you try to atone your sins you have no way out. Moash getting his eyes back and even getting an upgrade? It totally undermines his arc in RoW and turns him into a tool, he is not a character anymore.
10. Gavinor. This was just so storming bad. The only piece of foreshadowing is the Death Rattle. No emotional impact at all, who the hell is Gavinor? Who would have cried if Dalinar had just killed him? It all felt so synthetic and so anticlimactic, I don't know. And the way it was settled? Gavinor just randomly getting sucked into SR and stuck there? I don't know the proper English idioms for this kind of thing, but it was just performed in the most unsatisfying of ways. The whole central conflict of the first arc of SA is a sorry poorly written thing. And also what kind of message is this again? The poor kid was born in this family. His parents neglected him, his father was killed, he was being tortured by evil spren, and then what? He gets involved into some kind of a cruel play between the opposite forces, and he is just a helpless victim, a pawn. Is it what we've been waiting for during all these years? What a shame.

Overall impression is chaotic. While some arcs were well structured and brilliantly written, others look like a complete mess. A lot of new things brought to the table, while the old things are left forgotten, or undemined, or turned upside down for no reason.

Concluding, I can't give a rating for this book as a whole, so I'll split it. Shinovar - 15/10, Jasnah+Adolin+Renarin/Rlain+backstory - 8/10, everything else - -5/10. But if I have to rate it as a whole, it will be my least favorite SA book, overall SA rating for me being WoR -> WoK -> OB -> RoW -> WaT.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Okay, so I’m finally done. Overall loved the book, defenitely better than both Rhythm of War and The Lost Metal. I liked the pacing, and felt very invested in most storylines.

Highlights for me:

*Roshar history! If RoW was the ”magic system”-book, this was the history-book, and I really dug it. The Heralds have always fascinated me, and so getting to meet more if them, including Ishar, Chana and the ”real” versions of Jezrien and Nale, was really cool. 

*Adolin. He stole the book, which I did not expect. But he and his defense of Azir was IMO, the standout storyline. Really love how he has gone from being one of the most powerful men on Roshar in WoK and then becomes a crippled pikeman during the climax here, which is where he finds true strenght. Inspiring stuff.

*Szeth and Kaladin worked very well together, and Kaladin didn’t really steal Szeths thunder until the climax, and then it was very motivated by both their arcs.

*The philosophical aspects. Really adds depth to the whole story.

*The very bold ending. Incredibly excited for book 6-10 now that Roshar is dramatically changed.

*Jasnah losing hard to Odium. Finally. Unpopular opinion, I believe, but I always felt like she needed to be knocked down a peg or two. And the debate between them managed to be one of the most thrilling parts of the book. 

 

Criticisms:

*Some modernisms in the language takes me out of the story, such as Navani worrying that Lift mooned people, or Kaladin referring to himself as Szeths therapist. 

*Brandons tendency to neglect interesting villains. Moash barely got any screen-time, and defenitely no resolution. El was built up to be incredibly stormin’ cool, but also barely appeared. Ishar, Neturo and Mraize could have used more screen-time as well (although I’m glad Mraize got a POV and his scene at the dead crustacean). 

*Venli (and all Singers) are still boring to me. Not a flaw in Brandon or the book though, more my subjective feeling of not really finding them interesting. 

[Isilel]

28 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Navani worrying that Lift mooned people

 

Funnily enough, it is far from a modern expression and the internet tells me that it has been in use since 1601. 

But I agree that Sanderson sometimes tends to use jarringly modern or very much our world specific words, when there are perfectly good "timeless" words and expressions that he could have used instead.

Like, why write "clone", when you could have said "twin" instead and it would have expressed the same thought without feeling anachronistic?

OTOH, I actually always had this problem with his writing. I didn't re-read SA before WaT, so maybe there is comparatively more in it, but I distinctly recall feeling this way about the earlier books as well. For instance, frequent use of "plus" just doesn't fit a society without a compulsory education in written maths and feels jarring to me. IMHO, YMMV. 

I love the books despite this and I thought that WaT very much stuck the landing as an arc conclusion.

 

[Sam111]

I’m gonna write this and be burned at the stake for it, but the way Brandon writes LGBT inclusion is most of the time, lazy. 
 

“I filled out papers to be a man” - nothing ever comes from this. It’s just thrown in there. 
 

Same with the character who was hinted at being non binary earlier. 
 

Maybe these will actually come into play later, but when I come across them it completely takes me out, because I know it’s more than likely not going to be relevant, outside of BS just wanting to have inclusion. 

[+robardin he/him]

16 minutes ago, Sam111 said:

I’m gonna write this and be burned at the stake for it, but the way Brandon writes LGBT inclusion is most of the time, lazy. 
 

“I filled out papers to be a man” - nothing ever comes from this. It’s just thrown in there. 
 

Same with the character who was hinted at being non binary earlier. 
 

Maybe these will actually come into play later, but when I come across them it completely takes me out, because I know it’s more than likely not going to be relevant, outside of BS just wanting to have inclusion. 

I didn't think that need to be leading anywhere; instead it was fulfiling something.

I always thought it was interesting (funny) back in Oathbringer I think it was, when Kaladin comments about Drehy "courting a man" to Sigzil who concernedly asks if Drehy had "filled out the right papers yet", to Kaladin's amusement about the ways of the Azish.

So now we meet someone who is Azish, and has "filled out the paperwork". Gender reassignment is so much easier culturally if just you have a license for it, eh? LOL.

[who_slew_aicirtap she/they]

35 minutes ago, Sam111 said:

I’m gonna write this and be burned at the stake for it, but the way Brandon writes LGBT inclusion is most of the time, lazy. 
 

“I filled out papers to be a man” - nothing ever comes from this. It’s just thrown in there. 
 

Same with the character who was hinted at being non binary earlier. 
 

Maybe these will actually come into play later, but when I come across them it completely takes me out, because I know it’s more than likely not going to be relevant, outside of BS just wanting to have inclusion. 

But why does it need to be relevant later? There isn't any narrative reason for characters to be straight or cis either, so why is it different here? People are just like this, they don't need any reason for it.

[sigzilch]

Mixed feelings overall, 

kind of surreal that I’ll be waiting a decade not just to find out what’s next for roshar and this story- but I’ll also be waiting to see if what I once considered my favorite fantasy series still has the sauce that I just didnt feel in full force in this book but did feel in the earlier installments

[Lacra Maldita]

The thing about Kaladin and Shallan's thoughts didn't make much noise to me. After all, Kaladin and Syl are almost married, that's what matters.

[logicless.bt]

12 hours ago, Sam111 said:

I’m gonna write this and be burned at the stake for it, but the way Brandon writes LGBT inclusion is most of the time, lazy.
 

Maybe these will actually come into play later, but when I come across them it completely takes me out, because I know it’s more than likely not going to be relevant, outside of BS just wanting to have inclusion. 

I feel like these are two separate complaints. Queer characters don't have to do anything special to justify existing. If you're searching for a character whose story actually delves into being queer and the difference in treatment regarding that, Renarin and Rlain are there.

Of course, if you have problems with those particular portrayals you're welcome to share them, and you're likely to make good points.

[Master Silver]

Let me start by saying I haven't read everything on this thread. Also, this is going to be a little unpopular. I feel like Brandon needed to either break this book into two books or kill a few characters early on so that he wouldn't need to spend time on them. 

Things that I wished were more flushed out-

Adolin's and Maya's bond (him being unable to regrow his foot I thought was contrived). In the Oathbringer, it seemed like he had small amounts of stormlight healing. Also, there was too much hand waving about this. At the end of the day with the unmade being released (can't spell her name), this makes what Adolin did seem less important. 

The contest of champions. I didn't think this was well done at all. I get Gav being the champion. I don't get Dalinar not bringing a blade (missed opportunity with Oathbringer). 

Cultivation makes zero and I mean zero sense. There was an opportunity to make her shine but I felt like she behaved like a spiteful ex-girlfriend when we look at what happened to honor. 

The Moash stuff, honestly I thought it was a bit rushed and the fights were not as well done. It would have been great if Moash lost another little piece of himself. Maybe an ear this time.

Dalinar's ascension, again we build to this the whole book, but then nothing. And ending all oaths, could have led to the destruction of the whole planet. 

Szeth losing an arm and not receiving regrowth, again no reason for that. 

Finally, the whole Stormlight being completely gone, again I think there were other options, since there are technically 11 large portions of the Shard still around. 

 

Overall, I liked the book but many things just seemed rushed. The fights, the new relationships (like the budding friendships we saw), magic system explanations, and especially not seeing what the fifth idea actually was able to do. Super disappointed about the magic system stuff. The Adolin storyline I thought was the best. Then Taravangian. Then Kaladin and Szeth. Then Dalinar. I think I would put this as my third favorite book in the series. 

[BlueWildRye he/him]

Finally finished the book last night!

The chapter arches slowly degrading really freaked me out, tbh. Although it was really cool seeing the Kaladin Herald icon at the end amid the rubble.

I was very surprised when Todium destroyed Kharbranth, for obvious reasons. I kept coming back to that and wondering whether Taravangian had truly given up on the only thing he truly wanted to be preserved. Well, he didn't, he put them in the Spiritual Realm, which I feel like I should have expected.

Kaladin and Szeth's entire story was the most wholesome thing in the entire book. When everyone else was dying and failing miserably at everything they did, going back to Kaladin, Szeth, and company was really a relief. I loved Kaladin playing the flute and just being happy, the little tidbit in the in-world text mentioning that Szeth got married and started a new life in Shinovar was super cute, and I got attached to 12124 incredibly fast, which makes sense considering he meets Sigzil (holding the Dawnshard) in Shadesmar, meaning he's almost certainly going to become Aux! Unfortunately, Kaladin's body is technically dead now, but personally I don't think it counts since he's a Herald now.

Jasnah really had it coming in Thaylen City. Don't get me wrong, I like Jasnah, but I do believe she needed that failure, and Taravangian was absolutely right about her. Hopefully she can reform her philosophy and hopefully all the suspicious things she did in the past won't harm her in the present any more than they already did.

It's a shame that Moash isn't dead yet, although I would have been fine with something like redemption, too. Unfortunately he barely appears, only doing to to kill poor Leyten and to force Sigzil to abandon his Windrunner oaths.

Venli winning back the Shattered Plains for the Listeners was a very good play on her part and a very awesome part in the book, especially with how calm El is about giving it up to her after spending so many Fused and resources trying to take it. And, EL HAS A SHARDBLADE? Anyway, I was pretty worried that Todium would have a complete victory over all three battlegrounds, but he only actually won Thaylenah. Speaking of the other battleground...

Adolin and the Azir plotline was epic, especially the end where he becomes Unoathed. It's sad that he's isolated from literally everyone now, and that he's going to have to wait a loooong time (if not forever) to get his leg back, but if Shallan is able to send a seon back to him, maybe they can communicate. I really loved Yanagawn's character growth, and learning more about how Towers works was pretty neat too.

After Mraize said his babsk wouldn't let him visit other planets, I was kind of hoping he could survive and become an actual Worldhopper, but his final confrontation and death by Shallan was very cool to watch. It pains me that if Shallan had run a little faster she wouldn't be stuck in the Cognitive Realm, but here she is, I guess. Pregnant, too. And after her conversation with Kelsier, I don't think she's going to try and visit other worlds with the risk of becoming too disconnected from her friends on Roshar due to the time dilation.

Oh, yeah, the time dilation. And all the other off-world shenanigans. I wasn't worried in the least when Wit got vaporized, and there was never a reason to worry anyway because he wakes up... in Elendel Basin!?!?!? And meets Ulaam and Miss Grimes?!?!? If anything, THAT was the biggest twist in the book. I know it might alienate readers who don't know Mistborn, but I would love to see more blatant crossovers like this. That's also why I'm excited for Isles of The Emberdark, simply because of the Rosharan-Scadrian interactions shown there.

Gavinor as Odium's Champion was expected, but still a little disappointing. At least he survives, although Dalinar is worse off. Technically it's not actually Dalinar who is in command of Retribution's armies (the actual Dalinar died), but the Blackthorn wreaking havoc across the Cosmere is a nightmare to consider.

Ba-Ado-Mishram was cool, Renarin and Rlain were cool, and yeah that's just the tip of the iceberg in thoughts I have on this book.

[Silverblade5 he/him]

I was not expecting Nightblood of all things to level up. THE THING CAN GRANT SURGES NOW WTF!!! I cannot wait for the Warbreaker sequel now! Now that Stormlight is done we might even get it before GTA6!

[Lacra Maldita]

4 hours ago, Ookla Rye said:

Finally finished the book last night!

The chapter arches slowly degrading really freaked me out, tbh. Although it was really cool seeing the Kaladin Herald icon at the end amid the rubble.

I was very surprised when Todium destroyed Kharbranth, for obvious reasons. I kept coming back to that and wondering whether Taravangian had truly given up on the only thing he truly wanted to be preserved. Well, he didn't, he put them in the Spiritual Realm, which I feel like I should have expected.

Kaladin and Szeth's entire story was the most wholesome thing in the entire book. When everyone else was dying and failing miserably at everything they did, going back to Kaladin, Szeth, and company was really a relief. I loved Kaladin playing the flute and just being happy, the little tidbit in the in-world text mentioning that Szeth got married and started a new life in Shinovar was super cute, and I got attached to 12124 incredibly fast, which makes sense considering he meets Sigzil (holding the Dawnshard) in Shadesmar, meaning he's almost certainly going to become Aux! Unfortunately, Kaladin's body is technically dead now, but personally I don't think it counts since he's a Herald now.

Jasnah really had it coming in Thaylen City. Don't get me wrong, I like Jasnah, but I do believe she needed that failure, and Taravangian was absolutely right about her. Hopefully she can reform her philosophy and hopefully all the suspicious things she did in the past won't harm her in the present any more than they already did.

It's a shame that Moash isn't dead yet, although I would have been fine with something like redemption, too. Unfortunately he barely appears, only doing to to kill poor Leyten and to force Sigzil to abandon his Windrunner oaths.

Venli winning back the Shattered Plains for the Listeners was a very good play on her part and a very awesome part in the book, especially with how calm El is about giving it up to her after spending so many Fused and resources trying to take it. And, EL HAS A SHARDBLADE? Anyway, I was pretty worried that Todium would have a complete victory over all three battlegrounds, but he only actually won Thaylenah. Speaking of the other battleground...

Adolin and the Azir plotline was epic, especially the end where he becomes Unoathed. It's sad that he's isolated from literally everyone now, and that he's going to have to wait a loooong time (if not forever) to get his leg back, but if Shallan is able to send a seon back to him, maybe they can communicate. I really loved Yanagawn's character growth, and learning more about how Towers works was pretty neat too.

After Mraize said his babsk wouldn't let him visit other planets, I was kind of hoping he could survive and become an actual Worldhopper, but his final confrontation and death by Shallan was very cool to watch. It pains me that if Shallan had run a little faster she wouldn't be stuck in the Cognitive Realm, but here she is, I guess. Pregnant, too. And after her conversation with Kelsier, I don't think she's going to try and visit other worlds with the risk of becoming too disconnected from her friends on Roshar due to the time dilation.

Oh, yeah, the time dilation. And all the other off-world shenanigans. I wasn't worried in the least when Wit got vaporized, and there was never a reason to worry anyway because he wakes up... in Elendel Basin!?!?!? And meets Ulaam and Miss Grimes?!?!? If anything, THAT was the biggest twist in the book. I know it might alienate readers who don't know Mistborn, but I would love to see more blatant crossovers like this. That's also why I'm excited for Isles of The Emberdark, simply because of the Rosharan-Scadrian interactions shown there.

Gavinor as Odium's Champion was expected, but still a little disappointing. At least he survives, although Dalinar is worse off. Technically it's not actually Dalinar who is in command of Retribution's armies (the actual Dalinar died), but the Blackthorn wreaking havoc across the Cosmere is a nightmare to consider.

Ba-Ado-Mishram was cool, Renarin and Rlain were cool, and yeah that's just the tip of the iceberg in thoughts I have on this book.

You made a good summary of how excellent the book is.

[Valigus]

My two cents on the moral themes 

the great irony of the ending is that dalinar in his moment of “weakness” did the utilitarian thing nobody else was strong enough to do, he damned Roshar to save the cosmere.

jasnah and taravangian in the end revealed their commitment to their ideals to be hollow, the irony being that the man who rejected them made the right choice by them, and has done so, nearly every time.

(I think this in part represents a common lack of understanding with the philosophy but I don’t begrudge him that, he’s a fantasy writer not a philosophy PhD)

but also it’s just rly funny and I think it may be somewhat intentional 

[Hoid’s #1 Soldier]

Honestly, I did not like this book's ending. 

It feels weird to have this dissonance with a fandom for once, but I didn't enjoy the ending of Wind and Truth. I felt that the changes were too sudden-- it felt like I was missing additional context (I'm caught up on the Cosmere fully) for certain points and character developments. That may have been my fault for not doing a re-read of RoW beforehand, or at least browsing the chapter summaries.

The birth of Retribution is odd, as I am unsure why Taravangian was able to get it. I HATED Gavinor being brought in. I was actually hoping for Gavinor to be a character in the next arc-- but not like this. I was okay with Odium having Gavinor as his champion-- but did he have to be twenty years older? Did Gavinor need 20 years to develop, to become a strong warrior, only to immediately been frozen in the air by Odium? It made the idea of Odium grooming Gavinor for years for this feel useless. It's an unnnecessary cruelty that I don't think Taravangian would have committed. So much effort to teach someone for TWENTY YEARS. I am 22, almost 23, and I can't even fathom, with the immortality of a god, spending 20 years of my consciousness grooming a child only to be like "Sike!" 

That was easily my biggest gripe with the ending. I will trust Brandon on the rest-- taking Kaladin into another battle, restoring the Oathpact (which I felt ran contrary to what the Wind would want of anyone, frankly), and a few of the consequences of Retribution. It felt rushed after the moment of change, but I would've liked for a "Day 11-1400" or something as the last part to show a longer resolution

 

Overall, I give the book a 6/10. -4 points for the last two days alone-- the other days are a solid 9/10 all throughout. 

[What's a Seawolf?]

Going into this book, I was expecting book 5 of 5, when it is very clearly book 5 of 10. (Arguably book 5 of however many Cosmere books there are going to be.)  Nothing wrong with that, I just expected more conclusions than open ended questions.

All told the first three Stormlight books will always hold a special place in my heart, and I still consider them to be three of the best books I've ever read.

I really did not like Rhythm of War and so going into the conclusion of the first arc I was worried. Wind and Truth...was better than Rhythm of War. Significantly so. But it still doesn't hold a candle to the first three books.

The ending felt too rushed and shoehorned, both the Dalinar part/Contest of Champions and the reforging of the oathpact. The latter felt very handwavy, both in terms of the sudden lack of torture and the heralds showing up all willing to do it again. (Also the Wind needed more build up in earlier books, and the threat to the Spren needed more exploration and time devoted to it.)

The Dalinar part...I still don't know how I feel about it. The power of Honor coming to him then him leaving it happened way too quickly, and I don't know if I buy either occurrence. It felt like the Unite Them/Unity plotline has so much more to explore, but instead it seems to have been cut short.

Where the book really lost me was the whole Spiritual Realm adventure and hunt for BAM. The hunt for BAM was a complete waste of time. BAM did nothing and there was a lot of pages devoted to her, building her up, only for nothing to happen. The lore dumps in Dalinar/Tanavasts sections were nice, but that was a lot of pages devoted to...what, exactly? 

I also felt, being the final book of the first arc, there were too many extraneous viewpoints. I get Renarin, Rlain, Sig and Venli may all be important in the back half, but let them get pages in the back half. I really didn't care about any of them, although Vienta seemed like a really cool spren. (Venli at least has the excuse of being a flashback character in the front 5, although I maintain you could cut her out entirely from RoW onwards and nothing of significance or value would be lost.) Even Shallan-who I love-was basically wasted in the SR. First it seemed like we were going to rehash the Formless plot, and then we fasttracked the Ghostbloods. Speaking of, that was incredibly disappointing. The Ghostbloods were incredibly anticlimactic and did...nothing? I would have rather Shallan gone with Adolin and been hunting Ghostbloods as they tried to kill her husband for revenge.

The structure of the book was also a problem. The beginning was excellent, doing a great foreboding job of setting the stakes for the end of the world. You KNEW the contest of champions was going to have bigger stakes than some lines on a map, both by virtue of the storytelling and that Brandon made it clear this was the end of arc 1. So spending so much time in Azir and the Shattered Plains seemed...frivolous. I get we needed some battle scenes, but again, it just seemed superfluous. I would have much rather had the contest in the middle of the book and the last half of the book be about the fallout. (Such as the Spren beginning to be unmade/destroyed, to build up to needing a new Oathpact.)

All that said, there were some fabulous character moments. Everything Kaladin, Adolin and Szeth was great. I may have thought the Azir part too long and ultimately unnecessary, but Adolin remains a joy to read. (And he survived!)  Kaladin and Szeth (and even Nightblood) we're likewise fantastic. I wish I could say the same for Dalinar and Shallan, but again, the Spiritual Realm really did those characters a disservice. Jasnah is a character I never really liked, but felt she was very good in this book. She needed to be taken down a peg or two so she could grow in the back half of the series and that happened in a satisfying and believable way.

All told, I'm torn on this book. I devoured it pretty quickly so I definitely enjoyed it, unlike RoW, but I think that is solely due to the characters. The plot of this one, the resolution, how it was handled...it felt like it needed a fresh outline and serious editing. It's possible my expectations were just set too high because of the legendary status I give books 1,2 and 3.

Still looking forward to the future of Stormlight and the Cosmere, but it definitely feels like the quality has been declining for a while now. (And that has nothing to do with the prose arguments I see some people making, I've never had a problem with the way Brandon writes.) Here's to hoping the next Era of Mistborn recaptures some of the magic.