Wind and Truth Full Book Reactions (Cosmere Edition)

[Fallen_Ash]

4 minutes ago, robardin said:

I get what you're saying about Adolin and Shallan, but it's also worth noting (because Brandon is not great at writing romance/intimate stuff, or does it with a very light "vaseline on the lens" type of touch) that a lot of their deeper bonding has been mentioned as having happened off-screen. And the initial moments of falling in love in WoR, i thought were done pretty well.

Yes their interactions in WoR were great! And I know Brandon CAN write moments of emotional intimacy for characters, so I don't know why he off-screens so much with Adolin and Shallan. Shallan is basically like "okay I confided in Adolin and we're super in love, now it's time for my secret mission! See you sometime!" Kaladin got a more emotional interaction with both of them than they did with each other!! (In my opinion)

[DSCrankshaw]

On 12/11/2024 at 5:21 AM, BinarySecond said:

Another question I forgot. Is Notum wielding his own Father as a blade?

This occurred to me as well. But for two things: 1. I think we may be confusing Notum with Captain Ico, who was the one that kept his father on his ship,  and 2. The story is that all the Honorspren died in the Recreance, except Syl, and the Honorspren of today are descended from the ones the Stormfather created afterwards. 

[boonboon]

7 minutes ago, Fallen_Ash said:

Romance is never Brandon's strong suit, but compared to Vin and Elend, Dalinar and Navani, and even Siri and Susebron and Kaladin and Syl, this relationship feels incredibly underdeveloped. 

I kind of believe that it's supposed to feel underdeveloped and underwhelming.

Yes, you never know with his romances, but none of them are that sappy, superficial and sex-driven. It has to be bad on purpose, right?

Kaladin/Shallan WaT monologues are a bit worrying though. Why does BS outright lie in them? 

[Tahva4815]

15 minutes ago, boonboon said:

I kind of believe that it's supposed to feel underdeveloped and underwhelming.

Yes, you never know with his romances, but none of them are that sappy, superficial and sex-driven. It has to be bad on purpose, right?

Kaladin/Shallan WaT monologues are a bit worrying though. Why does BS outright lie in them? 

I found those inner monologues baffling lol. I don't recall Kaladin making any sort of advances toward Shallan. Did Sanderson forget what happened in his own books?

[DSCrankshaw]

24 minutes ago, Tahva4815 said:

I found those inner monologues baffling lol. I don't recall Kaladin making any sort of advances toward Shallan. Did Sanderson forget what happened in his own books?

The end of Oathbringer had Shallan seriously trying to decide between Adolin and Kaladin, and Syl comforting Kaladin when she chose Adolin. Which also strongly hinted at the Syl/Kaladin pairing. 

Honestly, I think Shallan and Adolin work. But I suppose not everyone agrees. I've seen a lot of real life couples who seemed a poorer match.

[justjump]

I liked the plot and the story development. Sanderson is so good at finishing / making stories happen / getting things done. So impressive.

However, his voice in this book was bothering me. The sentiment and the language just seemed too modern and too American. There also seemed to be more pandering to fans in this book than in others. Some of this worked well (most of Adolin's arc) some of it fell flat for me (Kal reusing the honor is dead line (but other people loved that, so i am probably wrong)), and some of it that seemed like bad fan fiction and should have been cut (the library scene, a few character or narrator musings / sermons that seemed gratuitous).

By the end of it I was satisfied and like it. But this was my least favorite Sanderson book.

Other things I wished were different:

• I don't like the "I saved my city in my pocket dimension" detail. I think it weakens Taravangian as a villain. 
• I don't like that Taravangian captured the Blackthorn as a cognitive shadow.
• I so wish we had a Mishram rampage where she burns the world down. I have been Mishram obsessed for a few books now and this just wasn't enough. Too many promises, not enough payoffs.

Edited December 12, 2024 by justjump

[NattyBo]

9 minutes ago, justjump said:

I liked the plot and the story development. Sanderson is so good at finishing / making stories happen / getting things done. So impressive.

However, his voice in this book was bothering me. The sentiment and the language just seemed too modern and too American. There also seemed to be more pandering to fans in this book than in others. Some of this worked well (most of Adolin's arc) some of it fell flat for me (Kal reusing the honor is dead line (but other people loved that, so i am probably wrong)), and some of it that seemed like bad fan fiction and should have been cut (the library scene, a few character or narrator musings / sermons that seemed gratuitous).

By the end of it I was satisfied and like it. But this was my least favorite Sanderson book.

Other things I wished were different:

• I don't like the "I saved my city in my pocket dimension" detail. I think it weakens Taravangian as a villain. 
• I don't like that Taravangian captured the Blackthorn as a cognitive shadow.
• I so wish we had a Mishram rampage where she burns the world down. I have been Mishram obsessed for a few books now and this just wasn't enough. Too many promises, not enough payoffs.

I don’t think Taravangian actually saved anyone in Kharbranth. He’s fooling himself.

[justjump]

5 minutes ago, NattyBo said:

I don’t think Taravangian actually saved anyone in Kharbranth. He’s fooling himself.

If this is true, and I would have mixed feelings about it if it were, I hope it somehow turns into horror. Where his little perfect world turns creepy and terrifying (like WandaVision but way creepier). But maybe the rules of the spiritual realm and the level of power T has make this impossible. 

[Forged Herald]

46 minutes ago, justjump said:

I liked the plot and the story development. Sanderson is so good at finishing / making stories happen / getting things done. So impressive.

However, his voice in this book was bothering me. The sentiment and the language just seemed too modern and too American. There also seemed to be more pandering to fans in this book than in others. Some of this worked well (most of Adolin's arc) some of it fell flat for me (Kal reusing the honor is dead line (but other people loved that, so i am probably wrong)), and some of it that seemed like bad fan fiction and should have been cut (the library scene, a few character or narrator musings / sermons that seemed gratuitous).

By the end of it I was satisfied and like it. But this was my least favorite Sanderson book.

Other things I wished were different:

• I don't like the "I saved my city in my pocket dimension" detail. I think it weakens Taravangian as a villain. 
• I don't like that Taravangian captured the Blackthorn as a cognitive shadow.
• I so wish we had a Mishram rampage where she burns the world down. I have been Mishram obsessed for a few books now and this just wasn't enough. Too many promises, not enough payoffs.

My impression (with this book and most of Mistborn era 2) is that editors are not really doing their jobs. I don't know if it's lack of time (because of the insane output) or if they are more afraid to question Brandon, but there definitely are many scenes that would require a work around. Also style is starting to become a little too inconsistent between TWoK and WaT.

As you said, everything about Shallan and Kaladin can be tossed out the window and a lot of parts could be made smoother (enhancing the book and, in the process, saving dozens of pages).

Story is great, world is astonishing, but editing is subpar.

Edited December 12, 2024 by Forged Herald

[Immortal Platypus]

My brother and I were theorizing before reading, and came up with the idea of someone picking up both Shards. I don't understand why it isn't called War though. We have the Rhythm of War, but the Shard (of the rhythms that make the Rhythm of War) is Retribution?

Edited December 12, 2024 by Ookla the Arbiter

[Forged Herald]

Just now, Ookla the Arbiter said:

My brother and I were theorizing before reading, and came up with the idea of someone picking up both Shards. I don't understand why it isn't called War though. We have the Rhythm of War, but the Shard is Retribution?

The combination of two Shards doesn't have a fixed outcome (Harmony Discord). Also I don't think that the combination of Honor and Cultivation is necessarily life (maybe Civilization?)

[Fallen_Ash]

1 hour ago, DSCrankshaw said:

The end of Oathbringer had Shallan seriously trying to decide between Adolin and Kaladin, and Syl comforting Kaladin when she chose Adolin. Which also strongly hinted at the Syl/Kaladin pairing. 

Honestly, I think Shallan and Adolin work. But I suppose not everyone agrees. I've seen a lot of real life couples who seemed a poorer match.

I still think it's odd to frame it as her rejecting him when she had never actually given any indication that she wanted a relationship with him, nor he her. Yeah they were flirty, and she drew pictures of him, but it wasn't like Kaladin was vying for her hand. 

I don't think they don't work, or couldn't work, but I wish that they had more opportunities to go through things together as a couple. The way they are written, to me they feel like an afterthought in each other's lives. 

2 hours ago, boonboon said:

I kind of believe that it's supposed to feel underdeveloped and underwhelming.

Yes, you never know with his romances, but none of them are that sappy, superficial and sex-driven. It has to be bad on purpose, right?

Kaladin/Shallan WaT monologues are a bit worrying though. Why does BS outright lie in them? 

I know he can write better couples, so IS it on purpose?! I'd love to ask him why Adolin, who can have chemistry with a dead Shardeblade, doesn't have any (or as much) with his own wife. I'm sure I'm reading too much into it, and it's just written that way because that's what the plot demands, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it as underdeveloped and underwhelming. With 1330 pages, I wish Brandon had cut Kaladin's "I'm glad she rejected me" musing and devoted a little more time to having them be a couple in a situation other than the shower. 

[Argenti he/him]

18 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

My brother and I were theorizing before reading, and came up with the idea of someone picking up both Shards. I don't understand why it isn't called War though. We have the Rhythm of War, but the Shard (of the rhythms that make the Rhythm of War) is Retribution?

I mean, I doubt Honor+ Cultivation would make Tower. Cultivation isn't called life, Honor isn't called storm, and Odium isn't called void.

[Immortal Platypus]

25 minutes ago, Forged Herald said:

The combination of two Shards doesn't have a fixed outcome (Harmony Discord). Also I don't think that the combination of Honor and Cultivation is necessarily life (maybe Civilization?)

true, but cultivation's light is Lifelight, (not Honor and her light together, that's Towerlight). in addition, lights are different from the rhythms.

7 minutes ago, Argenti said:

I mean, I doubt Honor+ Cultivation would make Tower. Cultivation isn't called life, Honor isn't called storm, and Odium isn't called void.

yes, but those are lights, not rhythms. (to my knowledge) we don't know what Honor + Cultivation rhythm is, or Odium + Cultivation. We do, however, know the Divine Rhythm of Odium + Honor.

[teknopathetic he/him]

2 hours ago, justjump said:

Other things I wished were different:

• I don't like the "I saved my city in my pocket dimension" detail. I think it weakens Taravangian as a villain. 

I actually liked this in the end. It reminded me of Jasnah's debate and the difference between what you say you would do to save the world and what you actually would do. Even the most cut-throat people likely have something they value more than rational decision making. 

Cultivation made her gambit, and in the end she sort of succeeded. Now Taravangian has a weakness hidden in the Spiritual Realm. The more he obsesses over his Spiritual Realm Tamagotchis, the more destroying them will be a fear of his.

He is stuck loving them forever instead of letting that one human connection fade over the eons as time changes Karbrandth. If anyone ever finds out, or if the people there ever find out, this could cause a conflict both internally and externally for Retribution. 

A plotline I see happening is Shallan accidentally teleporting to Tamogatchi Kharbranth, and crem gets stirred up. 

Edited December 12, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Tahva4815]

53 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I actually liked this in the end. It reminded me of Jasnah's debate and the difference between what you say you would do to save the world and what you actually would do. Even the most cut-throat people likely have something they value more than rational decision making. 

Cultivation made her gambit, and in the end she sort of succeeded. Now Taravangian has a weakness hidden in the Spiritual Realm. The more he obsesses over his Spiritual Realm Tamagotchis, the more destroying them will be a fear of his.

He is stuck loving them forever instead of letting that one human connection fade over the eons as time changes Karbrandth. If anyone ever finds out, or if the people there ever find out, this could cause a conflict both internally and externally for Retribution. 

A plotline I see happening is Shallan accidentally teleporting to Tamogatchi Kharbranth, and crem gets stirred up. 

I think the issue with this plot point is it really weakens how scary Taravangian seemed earlier on. It was genuinely a chilling scene when he wiped out the city, but for it to all have been a lie I think is just lame and totally undercuts that moment.

[teknopathetic he/him]

4 minutes ago, Tahva4815 said:

I think the issue with this plot point is it really weakens how scary Taravangian seemed earlier on. It was genuinely a chilling scene when he wiped out the city, but for it to all have been a lie I think is just lame and totally undercuts that moment.

Yeah, I don't disagree. If there was a hint he had done something in the original scene then maybe this would have echod better at the end. 

Edited December 12, 2024 by teknopathetic

[+robardin he/him]

8 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Yeah, I don't disagree. If there was a hint he had done something in the original scene then maybe this would have echod better at the end. Or if he reflected on what Jahsnah said and realized he was also a hypocrite maybe that would have echoed better. 

He does realize he's a hypocrite. That's why he thought of it to himself as "His secret. His dangerous, shameful secret." And the power (the part of Odium) seethed with hatred that Dalinar Kholin "had been right" as a result.

Exactly how it's "dangerous" to him, I suspect we'll find out.

He's never told anyone, like Fen or Jasnah in their little discussion of the moral ethics of leading and ruling a nation, that "I destroyed Kharbranth to prove my point to Cultivation"; though word will eventually reach them of Kharbranth's destruction, of course.

Would it give Cultivation some power over him, to know he hadn't really done it 100%? I mean he HAD destroyed the physical city; those on Roshar would be able to see its ruins. He's only plucked the people out of it and placed them into a virtual simulation of it, in a pocket vision-universe.

I guess it being in the SR, another Shard could stumble across it and Do Stuff To It, at the very least? And have an emotional piece of blackmail over him.

Edited December 12, 2024 by robardin

[teknopathetic he/him]

We know from Sunlit Man that Sig eventually goes to Ashyn. I wonder if Sig goes to Ashyn now as he walks past it, or if he teleports there later on using his dawnshard powers.

If he goes now, I am not sure how one would pass into the physical realm to Ashyn, but I bet SIg would be extremely curious to learn that the world is still inhabited. Maybe Cusicesh would help him out, or maybe there is another way somehow. 

I would love a short story of Sig realizing there were people there still and managing to go explore the world. Or a story of Sig trying to help Ashyn.

Edited December 12, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Marshall D. Teach]

39 minutes ago, Tahva4815 said:

I think the issue with this plot point is it really weakens how scary Taravangian seemed earlier on. It was genuinely a chilling scene when he wiped out the city, but for it to all have been a lie I think is just lame and totally undercuts that moment.

I agree i was absolutely shocked when that moment happened. And it stayed with me as I read the book. The reveal that they are all "safe" lessons that feeling of dread.  But as someone else has said I see the reasoning behind it. Could set up an absolute horror scene when the residents find out. Would be fun to get someones POV of that. Also maybe this is a vulnerable aspect that can be exploited as the world fights against Taravangian. So yeah I like get it but i would've preferred they all died tbh. 

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, Tahva4815 said:

. It was genuinely a chilling scene when he wiped out the city, but for it to all have been a lie I think is just lame and totally undercuts that moment.

 

At the same time, I kept waiting for this breach of unambiguous promise of Odium's to wound Todium. Because the deal between T and ROdium wasn't that T would be given Kharbranth, as he strangely claimed here, but that the city and it's people would be _spared_ by Odium.

For me it makes sense that this backlash didn't happen because TOdium saved the people and recreated the city in SR. 

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

7 hours ago, Fallen_Ash said:

My one complaint, however (other than the Ghostblood stuff), is that I have never been invested in Adolin and Shallan as a couple. I was trying to figure out why, and at first I thought it was because they're not passionate about each other, but I don't think that's it. What they lack is INTIMACY. They basically live parallel lives and come together once in a while to say "I love you" and have sex. Even when they are on the same mission, like in RoW, they hardly interact. Instead of helping Adolin with the trial, Shallan is focused on Ghostblood business. It's great that they say they support each other no matter what, but I rarely feel like it's shown. When we got the first POV of Adolin in Azir, I was shocked he hadn't even thought to himself "Maybe I should try to find Shallan and say goodbye!" Once in a while they'll stop to think "I sure love my spouse," but if they weren't married very little would actually change. Compare them to Kaladin and Syl, who are shown having pretty deep discussions and growing alongside each other. Adolin and Shallan don't really go through things together, which I find weird. Also weird was how much time was given in the book to talking about Shallan rejecting Kaladin (which she didn't do because he never even made a move or presented himself as an option). At this point, the proper amount of attention that should be given to that whole plot point is none. It's weird to have a little speech from Kaladin about how they wouldn't have worked, and it's weird to have Shallan thinking about Kaladin while watching her wedding. Maybe it's Brandon's clumsy way of trying to crush Shalladin once and for all, but it feels very out of place and honestly does the opposite. I know "show not tell" is trite, but this relationship needed more showing. Romance is never Brandon's strong suit, but compared to Vin and Elend, Dalinar and Navani, and even Siri and Susebron and Kaladin and Syl, this relationship feels incredibly underdeveloped. 

Welcome, and great commentary, 
To me the one thing I think makes Adolin and Shallon's relationship work is their independence. These are 2 people who thought they would be married to someone because of politics or family advantage, they do not have the culture of love and romance. Dalinar and Navani can afford to find love at this point in their lives, they had already done the proper marriage for politics.
I find their independence and support for each other amazing, just the fact that they fell in love at all is more than either might have hoped for. 

[boonboon]

1 hour ago, FollowYourMuse said:

To me the one thing I think makes Adolin and Shallon's relationship work is their independence. These are 2 people who thought they would be married to someone because of politics or family advantage, they do not have the culture of love and romance. Dalinar and Navani can afford to find love at this point in their lives, they had already done the proper marriage for politics.
I find their independence and support for each other amazing, just the fact that they fell in love at all is more than either might have hoped for. 

I can see where you're coming from, but is it really the best way BS could think of to show their love and independence? Through meaningless proclamations of love, physical attraction and complete absence of any conflict.

Surely he's more capable than that.

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

23 minutes ago, boonboon said:

I can see where you're coming from, but is it really the best way BS could think of to show their love and independence? Through meaningless proclamations of love, physical attraction and complete absence of any conflict.

Surely he's more capable than that.

He is more capable, but we also have two people that avoid personal confrontations, and conflict, until they hit a breaking point, and then solve it with drastic actions. 
I can see where if there was more of a focus on them in a book it could lead to some more character growth, and interesting how they both need to deal with their passive reaction to confronting those that they love. 
But SA is not a romantasy, and in real life there actually are couples that can go through life happily as a couple without conflict. 

[Rorzikel]

6 hours ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

yes, but those are lights, not rhythms. (to my knowledge) we don't know what Honor + Cultivation rhythm is, or Odium + Cultivation. We do, however, know the Divine Rhythm of Odium + Honor.

Honor plus Cultivation's rhythm was called the Rhythm of the Tower back in RoW.

Quote

The two snapped into harmony. The boundless energy of Cultivation, always growing and changing, and the calm solidity of Honor—organized, structured. They vibrated together. Structure and nature. Knowledge and wonder. Mixing.
The song of science itself.
That is it, the Sibling whispered to the Rhythm of the Tower. My song.
"Our emulsifier," Navani whispered to the Rhythm of the Tower.

Bolding mine, source is RoW 110.