Wind and Truth Full Book Reactions (Cosmere Edition)

[+Crossen]

1 minute ago, Duwath said:

Wow, what a great finale and overall experience! For me it's a 8.5/10 currently I think 

Cannot wait for part 6-10, but also for Elantris and Mistborn stuff to continue

 

Anyone had the feeling that Nohadon is not only some fabrication of Dalinars mind, but maybe something more? My gut feeling while reading was that he is maybe one of the shards in hiding (Valor? Reason?, but with no real clues to back that up). Somehow connecting to Dalinar in that moment from afar or maybe this shard was hiding on Roshar the whole time.

 

And anyone knows what the specific moment was, where Brandon some years ago had that great idea for an ending (was that during a DnD session?) that he wanted to use/include for Wind&Truth?

I think Nohadon is Adonalsium's vessel essentially, or something like it. He wanted to learn and to grow and could not do that without experiencing the lives of everyday people. I think Adonalsium essentially let himself be shattered. Nahadon seems to have too much power to be anything short of a Shard. It fits in with a lot of the religion/lore around Adonalsium/The One/ Tsa and the 3 moons and the Way of King epigraphs in this book.

[+robardin he/him]

17 minutes ago, Crossen said:

I think Nohadon is Adonalsium's vessel essentially, or something like it. He wanted to learn and to grow and could not do that without experiencing the lives of everyday people. I think Adonalsium essentially let himself be shattered. Nahadon seems to have too much power to be anything short of a Shard. It fits in with a lot of the religion/lore around Adonalsium/The One/ Tsa and the 3 moons and the Way of King epigraphs in this book.

Nohadon was a real, living man on Roshar who died and had written The Way of Kings, as Tanavast recalls in Ch. 122:

Quote

NOHADON'S BOOK. YES ... IT HAD BEEN CENTURIES SINCE THAT MAN HAD DIED. SUCH A CURIOUS INDIVIDUAL. PERHAPS I SHOULD HAVE INSISTED THAT HE ACCEPT IMMORTALITY, IF ONLY TO STUDY HIM LONGER...

Which is interesting as it suggests Honor had the ability to grant immortality, aside from having created the Heralds (and Nohadon being long after the Oathpact).

That said, the recurring visions that Dalinar has of him may be using Nohadon as an avatar. Whether Cultivation, a fragment of Adonalsium, or some other interested party.

Edited December 9, 2024 by robardin

[+mdross81 he/him]

Phew. That was quite the journey.

Overall thoughts: it was an acceptable ending to the first arc. Somewhere in there - with all of the thematic elements and character choices about how walking away from power can be the honorable thing to do - is a great book. What we got felt rushed and pulled in too many directions. It just lacked the tightness and focus of the best of Stormlight (WoR, WoK, and OB in that order for me).

Good

• Kal’s arc and ending in general, though I really hoped we’d get one last classic Kal fight scene that gives me chills; really thought we were going to get one with him fueled by the Wind (I guess we may get more later)
• Adolin (somewhat surprisingly) - didn’t necessarily care for the multiple fake outs that he died, but I often found myself really overcome with emotion during his big moments in a way that I haven’t before. Everything he’s doing with the unoathed is really cool and I can’t wait to see where it goes
• Taravangian - appropriately chilling 
• Dalinar finding a third option and having the courage to go through with it; though as with many others I’m not sure I fully understand his plan and why it’s so brilliant
• Rlainarin
• Sigzil - felt a little siloed off by himself and it was constantly heartbreaking knowing what was to come, but I liked his growth in confidence
• TANAVAST visions - honestly did not see it coming that the power would reject him
• Szeth flashbacks were generally good, but I gotta echo other peoples’ gripes about his present day story being essentially that of a Pokémon trainer going from gym to gym 

Liked what we got but wish it had been more:

• Ba-Ado-Mishram - especially like the twist that the tones of Roshar had chosen and aligned to her (I had assumed it was the other way around and that BAM had co-opted the tones)
• El
• Venli, Leshwi etc…
• Lift & Vasher
• Taln
• Jasnah

Not my favorite

• Gavinor as champion
• Shallan - I generally love her, but I don’t know. It all just felt like stuff she’s already done. Part of me wonders if I would have liked her arc more if we hadn’t already figured out the Chana Davar stuff
• Ishar - his whole deal just seemed messy and confusing; can’t root for him but he didn’t feel like as serious a threat here as he did in RoW - we’re just dropping the whole spren horror show experiments thing?
• Unmade - we basically learned nothing new about them - even Dai-Gonarthis which apparently … did things? … I really wanted more
• Hate to say it but … Wit - he just farted around cosplaying with Lift for 7 days while the cosmere-threatening cataclysmic event he’s been trying to forestall played out?

Like I said, all in all pretty good, but I can’t help feeling like with a little more time and revision it could have been much better.

[Aredor]

48 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

Part of me wonders if I would have liked her arc more if we hadn’t already figured out the Chana Davar stuff

Exactly my thoughts- I feel like we inadvertently spoiled ourselves on this reveal, and it made Shallan's journey too predictable for us. Same thing with Child Champion, because that twist probably was awesome... if we hadn't known about it and if we hadn't had years to either explain why we liked/disliked the theory. 

[Dopetruffles]

3 minutes ago, Aredor said:

Exactly my thoughts- I feel like we inadvertently spoiled ourselves on this reveal, and it made Shallan's journey too predictable for us. Same thing with Child Champion, because that twist probably was awesome... if we hadn't known about it and if we hadn't had years to either explain why we liked/disliked the theory. 

I have been reminding myself about future readers a lot over the last few days. There will come a time where readers will not have the same type of investment a lot of us have had with the series when they first pick it up. Imagine when the tv/film adaptations begin to come and people begin to pick the series up to answer questions or get a taste for it ahead of time. 
 

journey before destination, heh 

[neosporin]

I didn't realize it until now but in the prelude to WoK Kalak is the last one to get there and Jezrien meets him to explain what they're doing. Kalak's last thought is "forgive us."

In the postlude in WaT Kalak is once again the last one there and met by Kaladin, Jazrien's replacement. It ends with Kaladin telling Kalak "he forgives you all."

Beautiful symmetry. I know Brandon has said the ending to the stormlight archive is somewhere in the Way of Kings, but I think he meant Stormlight 10. Still though, how fitting that the end of the first arc is essentially the same as the beginning, but forging a new oathpact instead of abandoning it.

[Chirolina she/her]

Wow, what a book. I literally just finished. Here are my hot and fresh takes, which are likely clouded by emotion and reading quickly.

- I was really hoping we didn't end the first 5 in the same way we dealt with the Shard issues on Scadrial. It feels a bit disappointing to have another two Shards combine, it kind of feels like a story already told, but given the insight we got from this book on the history from Tannner/Stormfather with the repercussions of the Shattering, I'm still intrigued. 

- Vasher and Lift teaming up!!! Yes!!!

- Anyone else loving the similarities in the descriptions between holding a Dawnshard and experiencing different Heightenings? Curious...

- The fact that the Chana/Shallan theory was spot on was hilarious. Not just in being her mother but causing the "true" Desolation. This fandom is great.

- Shallan talking to Kelsier?? Squuuueeeeeeeeee!

- Where tf is Cultivation going? Just abandoning all her plans and machinations? Disappointing. If Cultivation has no haters I am dead. 

- Reason!!! Retribution!!! Valor's vessel was at some point a dragon!!! Two dragon Shards!!

- WHO THE This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules IS NOHADON??

- I was honestly disappointed in the lack of repercussions from Ba-Ado-Mishram. She was released after all that build up and then just....immediately went into hiding? She better be cooking up something SPICY. 

 

And here are some more detailed takes, and questions I have:

1) Chapter 77, Page 755: "Perhaps four would work. The number of Adonalsium's four aspects." Are the four "aspects" of Adonalsium congruent with the four Dawnshards? Ten = heralds/honor, sixteen = shards, the only other example of four things I can think of that are relevant to Adonalsium are the Dawnshards...

2) Chapter 135, Page 1,233: "You have let yourself become an attendant to your human, an auxiliary to his will." I was SO excited to get the validation at the end of the book that I guessed that 12124 would become Aux, who we see in Sunlit Man with Sig. I soooo curious to learn more about what happens between the end of this book and Sunlit Man....

3) Did anyone else notice that the description of the color of Taravangian's eyes changed? In chapter 112 page 1,045 where he's having the debate with Jasnah, they are described as light brown, and in chapter 136 page 1,243 when he's talking to Dalinar during the contest they're described as light grey?? I can't fathom why there would be significance here, maybe just a genuine continuity error?

4) Chapter 145, Page 1,298: "You cannot have him, the powers said, for he is claimed by another". WHO????? So is Dalinar split into two Cognitive Shadows? Is that even possible? The "true" Dalinar, claimed by an unknown Shard/other, and then the Blackthorn created and claimed by Retribution? This is messed up, what would happen if they ever met?

5) Hoid/Sigzil's Dawnchard = Exist? How does this relate to the Torment? All the other aspects of it we've seen from Hoid/Sigzil's experiences holding it make sense, but not the Torment (in my mind).

6) This isn't story related, but I think I found a typo on page 1,309. This is exactly how it appears in the text of the book: "That group included the Husked One she'd seen the other night on the plateau, staring at the sky." What's up with the weird italics? 

7) Chapter 147, Page 1,317: This line is after she's thinking about how she's stuck in Shadesmar and might not see Adolin for a while: "Her hands went to her stomach, cradling it. Oh....oh storms." Why use the word cradling specifically?? IS SHALLAN PREGNANT???

[Dopetruffles]

I did a lot of thinking about the format of epic fantasy while reading this book. (Sorry for the essay)

Sanderson is notorious for many things, and big books is definitely one of those! But truly, he has found a way to explore, over the course of so many different books and series the ultimate fate of beliefs themselves. Epic fantasy gives you the legroom to really explore these things and walk the reader through them, and the Cosmere is something even more special in that regard. I think that the Cosmere and each story contained within it is the perfect stage to discuss something as nebulous and as particular as impermanence (the idea that nothing stays the same forever). When nothing can stay the same forever, even godhood, it becomes that much more fascinating to think about the Cosmere on a bigger scale. Entire religions spring up in the span of a chapter in this WaT, and the theology of Sanderson's characters warp and change with the time. A fascinating demonstration of a real-life phenomena. 

Adonalsium seems to have left the Singers with a promise and a task, but the faith in that promise wanes naturally over time and is eventually forgotten. Not intentionally, of course, but this is the ultimate fate of most theology. It is why Sazed's determination to keep as many religions as he possibly can is so interesting. The further away from a moment of creation or of godly action a people moves in terms of time, the more diluted that memory becomes. In the Cosmere as a whole, and definitely in Mistborn era 1 and SA arc 1, there seems to be an old guard and a young scrappy group of mortals (more or less) that pushes back and we get to SEE the results of that strife. Each era of Mistborn that we get to see is an expansion of the future that those scrappy mortals created, and it is so interesting to think about how the scrappy mortals may just turn into the enemy themselves given enough time and pressure on a Cosmological scale. Epic fantasy is a very special genre for this reason--the long form of its storytelling increases the emotional buy-in of its readers.

The truly incredible part is that Sanderson is also able to weave fantastic, emotionally gripping, stories and characters in between these huge plotlines. Moreover, the stories are not merely the same beginning, middle, and end for each iteration of the powers-that-be in Roshar or within the Cosmere overall. Each time the story changes, the power in that story changes. Each time the power changes hands, the way that that power is used and interpreted changes with it. Adonalsium went from one to several, and so naturally the Cosmere itself will be different. The power had no one to act through for thousands of years, naturally the way that that power works will be different. This means that the mysteries in one's stories can be that much more mysterious and engaging.

Even though there were things that, thanks to the WoBs and forums in general) we knew ahead of time, Sanderson still managed to keep the surprises coming. I suspect he thought for a long time about what to do about people guessing the Chana Davar thing waaaaaay early. Surely he wouldn't just not use that part of the story, but how much attention did he really need to give it in a book with more story than it logistically may have had the real estate for? I thought he handled that situation well. He gave it the weight that a reader who does not lurk on forums like these would expect for a discovery that big--while also keeping it tight. I am sure that there will be much more to come from that story, but the reader has their confirmation for the time being.

It's just a really interesting, detailed and long form, demonstration of the fact that nothing is permanent. Not people, or gods, or beliefs, or laws... Not even spren, despite being little pieces of divinity, are guaranteed to survive forever. Impermanence has been kind of a comfort for me in troubling times, and to see its assurance displayed so perfectly in the form of story is just that much more soothing. It's a very scary thing, but it's also a very comforting thing. You may not be warm now, but you will be warm again. I promise.

 

[Chirolina she/her]

On 12/6/2024 at 12:07 AM, Soccorro said:

 

Everything about Dalinar. Gavinor was, in my opinion, stupid. I understand that any book is reflection of author’s world view and “killing one to save many isn’t worth it” theme was there since book 1, but…killing Gavinor was right. I’m sorry. I understand what Brandon tried to show, but really? The fate of many planets and so many lives aren’t the priority? Dalinar died…for this? He was sidelined in RoW for this? Didn’t even reach next ideal. Dalinar’s character is pure disappointment and it hurts to think about amazing character conclusions other characters got while Dalinar fans pulled the short straw. Again. Should’ve died in Oathbringer instead.

 

I TOTALLY agree about Gavinor. And now we have....two Cognitive Shadows of Dalinar?? Weird

On 12/6/2024 at 11:36 AM, basement_boi said:

-What’s going on with the fourth moon? Why is this such a big secret, and why is it special? Does it imply that a fourth shard is in the system?

I was also disappointed with the lack of detail surrounding the "new metal" that is "worse than aluminum"? The core of Braize, and the 4th moon that just...is gone now? I thought it was going to be revealed that Honor's shame was like, crashing that moon into the planet for some reason, creating the Shattered Plains, and inserting this new metal onto Roshar. Come to find out the Shattered Plains was just the result fo the first clash between Odium and Honor? Idk it feels weird and empty

[Moirne she/her]

Dalinar went to the Beyond - we see this happening. He’s gone gone. Blackthorn seems like a strange spiritual doppleganger and I’m curious to see how he develops.

 

The “claimed by another” is likely a reference to Dalinar’s belief in a God Beyond. As he states in the ch 77 epigraph, "But I will say that for me, the existence of something that cares—and can, after death, make up for injustices in life—is not the question. But the answer."

Edited December 10, 2024 by Moirne

[teknopathetic he/him]

Overall liked the book, but the Szeth and Ishar stuff fell flat. That entire plotline felt like it was ripped out of a God of War style video game. And the reveals? It was just....none of it ever felt dangerous or meaningful. The fights were just either so easy it was silly, or so hard that you knew "the power of feelings" was going to win the day. The heralds were just too impotent, and the blade holders were just too inconsequential. 

Edited December 10, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Chirolina she/her]

32 minutes ago, Moirne said:

Dalinar went to the Beyond - we see this happening. He’s gone gone. Blackthorn seems like a strange spiritual doppleganger and I’m curious to see how he develops.

 

The “claimed by another” is likely a reference to Dalinar’s belief in a God Beyond. As he states in the ch 77 epigraph, "But I will say that for me, the existence of something that cares—and can, after death, make up for injustices in life—is not the question. But the answer."

But wasn't it confirmed or heavily hinted that the "God Beyond" is just Adnolasium, who no longer exists? It just felt like weird wording to me, where with other deaths (like Wayne or Eshonai for instance), even if they lingered for a bit we got that clear language that they "stretched" into the beyond, but Dalinar's "stretching" felt like it was interrupted? Idk, feels weird to me

[Moirne she/her]

4 minutes ago, Chirolina said:

But wasn't it confirmed or heavily hinted that the "God Beyond" is just Adnolasium, who no longer exists? It just felt like weird wording to me, where with other deaths (like Wayne or Eshonai for instance), even if they lingered for a bit we got that clear language that they "stretched" into the beyond, but Dalinar's "stretching" felt like it was interrupted? Idk, feels weird to me

“Dalinar’s soul slipped away from him. Stretched. And vanished into the Beyond.”

Seems pretty cut and dry to me, honestly. I believe Brandon has firmly refused to answer questions about whether there is another being besides Adonalsium in the Beyond because he wants each reader to come to their own spiritual conclusions- but we do know that Dalinar believed there was, and chose to give his soul to that being and place.

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

In chapter 50 Hoid says "I'm a puppet for raw Investiture, propped up and speaking like the sock on a child's hand. Damn. Is this how the Iriali feel all the time? No wonder they're so storming odd."

Several curious things here.

1. The Iriali hadn't arrived on Roshar at the time of the Ashynite's migration, they arrived later, but Hoid already knows about them. Not surprising due to his age, but still and interesting tidbit. 

2. He uses the phrase 'storming', which I thought was specific to Roshar due to the highstorm, I wouldn't have thought it would come from Ashyn. 

3. He basically insinuates the Iriali are puppets of raw investiture, and they have their big world-hopping quest for the One. Are the Iriali the result of leftover bits of the Shattering? Are they little fragments of Adonalisium that didn't make it into the Shards? 

[ethanrc]

An OK stormlight book is still amazing. Glad we got a lot of our questions answered, and I enjoyed a most of the character arcs. Some loosely categorized thoughts

Mysteries

• Son of Honor / Child of Tanavast: was this just foreshadowing Heraldin? Dalinar also thinks about "Kaladin having a sliver" when he relinquishes the power of Honor; I expected this mystery to close in Arc 1, but it seems like there is more here.
• "The Wind / Ishar knows a way to separate mind from Braize for the Heralds" felt a little Deus ex Machina. Definitely could be some explanation here that would convince me (not up to date on all the Realmatic theory)
• Nature of Honor / our shame. Tied this up well
• Chana reveal was done well, and a great surprise for those who were not super super online
• Feels a little disappointing to not learn more about BAM, but I assume she'll be a key theme in Arc 2
• Shattered Plains:  just shattered bc of clash bt Honor and Odium? I hope there is more here, and the pool / 4th moon seem to promise a bit more
• As others have said, the fourth moon stuff was interesting. At the first mention of the moons, I assumed there was some tie in to the Mishim / Moons Wit story. But now, I have no idea. We will see in Arc 2!
• Ishar drinking from the pool of Odium does not seem like it's just going to be a Book 5 plot point
• Ditto Battar's interlude -- will we have good and bad heralds in Arc 2?

Plot / structure

• Some of the early stuff (like the Book Quartermaster scene) seems really bad in hindsight. Reading along with the preview chapters, I assumed there must be some tie-in later in the book. Now it just seems like a dumb chapter that wasted our time and precious page space
• I enjoyed the Towers content / plot device. Helped pull the reader a bit more into the battle strategy without it being an info dump, nice foreshadowing of the end, decent character development
• I don't love the age up, and I don't love the Gav champion. But honestly, I'm glad BS is willing to stick to his guns on something that he clearly intended for a while/foreshadowed heavily.  If we don't want authors to over fan-service, then we have to accept that somethings may not land (or at least not land initially)
• SR was great for lore
• Some of the interludes tying back pretty deep was a nice touch (17th shard, RIP Ym [the GOAT] but glad your granddaughter is ok [same spren?])

Characters

• Glad BS is having some characters exit, way too many who aren't able to get their fair share. I wanted more Venli and more Lift (I would never have believed I would say either of these after my first read).
• Jasnah was disappointing, and I hope BS gets better at writing her for arc 2.
• On the other side, I enjoyed the Renarin chapters a lot more than I expected. Bullied Renarin had me tearing up
• SR was good for Dalinar, good for Renarin, and pretty meh for Navani/Shallan/Rlain. Better for Rlain than the other two, but I feel like he could be so much more as a character. I assume he and Renarin will be the Navani/Dalinar of Arc2
• In the macro sense, really happy with Kaladin conclusion. No other way to end than him realizing he wants to protect. In the micro sense: Therapy stuff was a little heavy handed, the Syladin stuff a little weird
• Not sure why Moash is still around, I have to assume this will be part of Gav's arc, seeking retribution for his father

Misc

• Some weird phrasing that didn't match the previous world building -- some of the therapy talk, May saying she's Adolin's ex, etc

Edited December 10, 2024 by ethanrc
another thought

[Tahva4815]

Incredibly mixed feelings.

Definitely need to sit with it for a while and maybe re-read some parts, I just finished an hour ago. Overall vibes coming right out of it:

 

The Great:

In general, I thought the spirit realm stuff was really interesting and well done. The backstory on the Heralds, Tanavast, Honor, the history of Roshar the planet, etc was FASCINATING and multiple times had me wishing for a whole book about like the Exodus from Ashyn, or the events leading up to the Recreance, etc. All of that backstory felt really well thought out and seemed to fit well with what we've already known.

Szeth's flashbacks, and the Shinover stuff in general, was the other part of the book that mostly worked for me.

Jasnah's story I thought worked really well, and I loved the way she was outsmarted by Odium/Taravangian into giving up Theylen city. I also liked how her relationship with Wit was resolved (for now).

I was mostly satisfied with the main resolution, and Honor and Odium combining I think (though similar to Hero of Ages) was a unique and interesting way to end it for now. 

 

The Mid:

The Shattered Plains plot was a mixed bag for me, I liked Venli's plotline but ultimately it didn't seem to matter all that much for THIS book, and I was hoping she would discover more of whatever this fallen moon was or what was going on with that. Just discovering Odium's pool was cool but again like....what does that ultimately mean for anything? Hard to say.

Sigzil doesn't do much for me, and his side of the plot was sorta goofy. Moash I mean....what is even the point of him? 

I liked Renarin/Rlain romance but unfortunately think Renarin has never been the most interesting character, and it feels like Rlain has become less interesting the more he becomes just a side piece for Renarin. Idk. 

 

The Bad:

Adolin's entire plotline in Azir. This took up SO many pages and just felt incredibly disconnected and pointless compared to everything else going on. Adolin complaining about Dalinar for chapters on end, teaching chess to character we don't care about, really the entire thing felt like a sideplot of all sideplots, I couldn't have cared less about anything going on in these pages and I was constantly wishing to be in any of the other storylines. Truly baffled why this needed so many pages, it felt like the most of anyone in the book.

 

The "Huh?":

-The old gods stuff definitely felt like it came out of absolutely nowhere, and was never really well explained either

-Reforging the oathpact felt a lot less impactful then it should have somehow, just came off as way more random and bizarre then it should have. Also finding some Deus Ex Machina to justify the Heralds not going back to torture felt INSANELY bs.

-Absolutely felt like it was heading down a Kaladin x Syl angle, which honestly was not something I thought I would be in for but I was kinda excited as it started heading that way to see how Sanderson would do it cause its such a bizarre way to go with things....but then it never materialized so. Kinda a bummer honestly.

-Two different long predicted theories came true, I thought the Shallan's mother of it all was very well done for something that had long been anticipated, while Gavinor as a whole was just a big mess. Really just couldn't stand how that was done, and the whole "contest of champions" thing in general I just think was stupid. Everything surrounding that, and the plotlines of Odium and Jasnah etc using random Alethi laws to justify different loopholes, like trading the Shattered Plains to the Parshendi, or loopholes allowing Odium to take everything over, or the Azish thrown, just felt like such silly ways of the plot mechanics moving that I found it hard to take seriously at all. 

-Ba-Ado-Mishram, for all the hype, releasing her didn't appear to really be a big deal, which bummed me out.

-The Sons of Honor and Ghostbloods both were really pretty pointless overall? It kept being brought up that the Ghostbloods would have some kind of attempt to influence the contest of champions but I truly don't see how they could have. In general the Ghostbloods stopped working for me once it came out Kelsier was behind them, unless Sanderson goes full on Kelsier as villain in future books I just don't see them working as villains.

-The Heralds problems mainly being due to Ishar consuming Odium also felt like bs. 

-Never enough Lift.

-Many things seemingly setup in Rhythm of War didn't matter whatsoever. Anti-Light was not made to be a huge deal at all, Tower Light did not do very much, and for the love of Adonalsium what was the point of introducing El, and what is the point of Moash? Moash hasn't done anything since Book 2. Three thousand pages of waiting for him truly matter while he slowly kills off side characters. Ishar messing with spren also felt somehow retconned into the Shinovar plot. I feel like originally Ishar's plot and the shinover plot might've been meant to be two different things. It was odd how easily that was resolved when it was such a bizarre thing introduced in Book 4.

 

Overall a mixed bag of an ending. Szeth, Kaladin arcs felt satisfying, and Venli and Jasnah as well. Dalinar and Shallan clearly had arced out in previous books, and honestly I kinda think Dalinar just could have died in Oathbringer and someone else could have filled his role in this part, maybe Adolin. I liked the stuff with Dalinar but his final confrontation with Odium did feel....idk cheap somehow. Part of me thinks him joining Odium simply would've been more compelling. 

Still leaves you wanting more, but for how many pages and how long it was it felt weirdly inconclusive for how I expected to feel. A ton of the ending was just teasing book six. So much of it was totally pointless feeling battle scenes, and the I stopped trying to understand which fused were which long ago.

 

 

 

[boonboon]

3 minutes ago, Tahva4815 said:

-Absolutely felt like it was heading down a Kaladin x Syl angle, which honestly was not something I thought I would be in for but I was kinda excited as it started heading that way to see how Sanderson would do it cause its such a bizarre way to go with things....but then it never materialized so. Kinda a bummer honestly.

It seems to be his favorite thing to do with romance. The same happened with Wax/Marasi and the-same-but-1000-times-worse with Shallan/Kaladin. BS just sets up expectations and then ignores them without ever addressing. Or addresses them, but very briefly, leaving a bad taste in the reader's mouth. Oh, or ignores them for the next three books and then briefly addresses in the form of a very cringe and forced band-aid monologue.

He's either straight up trolling or doesn't understand what he writes. 

[Tahva4815]

1 minute ago, boonboon said:

It seems to be his favorite thing to do with romance. The same happened with Wax/Marasi and the-same-but-1000-times-worse with Shallan/Kaladin. BS just sets up expectations and then ignores them without ever addressing. Or addresses them, but very briefly, leaving a bad taste in the reader's mouth. Oh, or ignores them for the next three books and then briefly addresses in the form of a very cringe and forced band-aid monologue.

He's either straight up trolling or doesn't understand what he writes. 

Shallan saying she had rejected Kaladin's advances had me rolling. If looking at her once or twice counts as advances. 

 

I also checked with two friends and they both also got the vibes in the first half he was setting up Kaladin/Syl. It never went anywhere and I don't read the sample chapter so idk if other people were getting the same vibes but honestly I was genuinely disappointed nothing happened between them by the end, even though before the book came out I would've never said that was something I wanted to see so. Dunno, weird for sure.

[Nef]

13 hours ago, robardin said:

"No Syladin?" Don't be so sure. I mean, they're both basically spren now.... And bonded spren go with the Heralds when they're "locked away" (Nale's highspren too).

Yeah I think I agree. I'm starting to think the conversations about them being more independent of one another was to make a "Syladin" relationship more healthy (one where they are equals). The relationship looks problematic if you view Syl as an unequal partner at the beck and call of Kaladin.  

[+Crossen]

On 12/7/2024 at 7:26 PM, Crossen said:

Same for Aesudan. I have posted about her before being a Herald, but now I think that that is highly unlikely since Dalinar and Navani would have recognized her in the visions. I do still think that she was a part of one of the conspiracy groups, however (especially with young Gav mentioning than Battar would visit Aesudan in Kolinar).

I did a re-read of the Spiritual Realm chapters and have come to a re-contextualization from what I thought I read before. Especially from this quote from chapter 44:

Quote

     “I will need memories,” Glys said, standing behind Renarin like a shadow. “To give form. I will help, but this is not real. Not even as not real as the other visions. Not real past. Sorry. I … will try to words … better.”

     “It’s all right, Glys,” Renarin said. “We get it.”

     “We do?” Shallan asked.

     “Glys can help us shape some semblance of reality from this place,” Renarin said. “But it’s not going to tell us anything new or interesting, because he’s feeding on my memories, not the Connections and tones of the Spiritual Realm.”

So if someone takes the place of a Herald in a spiritual realm vision then they would appear like their current day depictions since that is what the person would remember them looking like. You can see this from Dalinar's instant recognition of Rlain as Pailiah:

Quote

     As Dalinar entered the tent, he recognized Pailiah instantly, wearing green cloth that stood out so much from the furs of the others. With tan skin and a Veden look, she was Lightweaving.

How could he instantly recognize the "real" her if he never saw the real her anyway? Navani took her place in the only previous vision she was in.

In every vision someone has taken Pailiah's place, so either we see a lightweaving of what they think she looks like or of Navani taking her place. So from this we cannot say that Aesudan is not Pailiah because they never saw the real Pailiah in the visions.

After confirming this and the addition that Battar was visiting Aesudan, I am convinced now more than ever that Aesudan is Pailiah.

[neosporin]

Just who is Nohodon exactly? He has to be something more than just a previous King. After reading the epigraphs again, I realized Dalinar did the exact same thing as Nohodon. He gave it up and walked away.

"First, I dared not tell them this dusty traveler with whom they shared a meal was in fact that very king they had heard of. The second was that I did not explain that very king had abdicated his throne and walked away from his kingdom."

 "I do not have answers, and there will always be some who denounce me for this decision I made. But let me teach a truth here that is often misunderstood: sometimes, it is not weakness, but strength, to stand up and walk away."

 "May you have the courage someday to walk away. And the wisdom to recognize that day when it arrives."

It makes me wonder if he's actually another shard or something. Maybe it has to do with the 4th moon that hit Roshar? The final scenes with him and Dalinar have to be proof of him being something more than just Dalinar's mind manifesting him. 

It's touching to see how important The Way of Kings was to Dalinar. I guess in the end there words and choices he needed were in the book after all.

Edited December 10, 2024 by neosporin

[Tahva4815]

Something else random for me, the overall pacing with so many POVs per chapter, I found rather bizarre.

[Soccorro]

14 hours ago, robardin said:

No Syladin?" Don't be so sure. I mean, they're both basically spren now.... And bonded spren go with the Heralds when they're "locked away" (Nale's highspren too).

But he will come back and get his physical body back eventually

14 hours ago, robardin said:

As for the Dalinar Decision, it's brilliant

The big problem with Dalinar's arc is that it will get a satisfying payoff only when Brandon Sanderson writes books 6-10 and Dalinar's grand plan comes to fruition. So in 20-30 years. As of now, it’s “I screwed up planet’s eco system and knight radiants! Anyway. That’s problem for next generations. My job here is done, time to rest”. Taravangian even got his own pet Blackthorn anyway. It cheapened Dalinar’s sacrifice

2 hours ago, Chirolina said:

I TOTALLY agree about Gavinor

IMO he should remain a child to provide…innocence vibe? Idk why Brandon made him older, if child would work exactly the same. For future romance with Lift?

 

2 hours ago, Chirolina said:

The "true" Dalinar, claimed by an unknown Shard/other, and then the Blackthorn created and claimed by Retribution? This is messed up, what would happen if they ever met?

True Dalinar met this Blackthorn in SP earlier, I believe. I think real Dalinar died and went to beyond. As for Blackthorn, I don’t understand what it is. He will either serve as evil Odium’s puppet or will have character development and will become more like old Dalinar. This shadow is like young Dalinar because people of Roshar including his sons hate him, right? What if after the time skip people will view Dalinar differently, as someone who sacrificed his life for them and wrote Oathbringer. Will Cognitive Shadow change too?

I don’t know how to combine 2 replies into 1!

[+Oltux72 he/him]

4 hours ago, Soccorro said:

The big problem with Dalinar's arc is that it will get a satisfying payoff only when Brandon Sanderson writes books 6-10 and Dalinar's grand plan comes to fruition.

Worse, it is an outcome Rayse already talked about and Dalinar rejected. In a certain sense all the people who died in the last two books died in vain.

4 hours ago, Soccorro said:

IMO he should remain a child to provide…innocence vibe?

No, for that would have allowed Dalinar to escape questioning himself. He could have hidden behind the general revulsion against killing a child. By making him a man, Dalinar had to face the core question: Can I kill somebody for being what I made him into.

 

[+robardin he/him]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

[sending toddler Gavinor to be Odium's champion] would have allowed Dalinar to escape questioning himself. He could have hidden behind the general revulsion against killing a child. By making him a man, Dalinar had to face the core question: Can I kill somebody for being what I made him into.

I like that take, but there's another practical one: Odium would have needed time to really mold Gavinor's hatred of Dalinar.

Surely not 12-15 years of molding, you say? OK, that's the emotional side, but remember, Gavinor would have to view himself as being able to defeat Dalinar in single combat to agree to be Odium's champion as well (hatred doesn't mean "I want to suicide by Shard Duel To The Death where I'm clearly outclassed").

Yes, it turned out he was always just an emotional pawn for Taravangian's game plan, who froze him in place during the duel after only a few minutes to make him a sacrificial dummy target. But Gavinor couldn't know that, as the role was specified by contract to be assumed by a "willing champion".

18 years old or so is probably the minimum age for Gavinor to have been groomed to focus his hatred on Dalinar (and not Moash... Or maybe that's still there too... And Moash is still out there), trained with Shards, and developed enough physically to look in the mirror and say, "Yes, I think I beat the somewhat over-the-hill Blackthorn in single combat to the death."

I assume we'll see Gavinor in the back five. He's presumably going to spend the next ten years in the cocooned Urithiru, after having his life saved by the very man he was raised to hate and to kill, isolated from the touch of Odium/Retribution, and with access to the book Oathbringer. 

I wouldn't be surprised if he were an even more dangerous fighter than prime Dalinar, or Adolin, as I'm guessing part of his training in the SR would have been to spar against vision-simulacra of Dalinar.

Edited December 10, 2024 by robardin