Wind and Truth Full Book Reactions (Cosmere Edition)

[Aon Tia she/her]

4 hours ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

Where the book really lost me was the whole Spiritual Realm adventure and hunt for BAM. The hunt for BAM was a complete waste of time. BAM did nothing and there was a lot of pages devoted to her, building her up, only for nothing to happen.

She will be a mojor player in SA 6-10. It is a mid way book. I actually like that we have a mystery power and a possible contender to Retribution sitting right in his backyard and he can not do anything about it!

4 hours ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

The lore dumps in Dalinar/Tanavasts sections were nice, but that was a lot of pages devoted to...what, exactly? 

answers, long awaited answers!

4 hours ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

too many extraneous viewpoints. I get Renarin, Rlain, Sig and Venli may all be important in the back half, but let them get pages in the back half

They needed tp be there because while this book is the end of arc 1, it is also is required to set up for arc 2! 

Venli, Renarin and Rlain all 3 will have a major role in uniting the humans and singers eventually and therefore her entire storyline was important. I loved learning about the Chasmfiends! The mystery of the 4th moon, stone singing is clearly going to be important and odium's, now Retribution's perpendicualrity!! All of these seem to be very important for 2nd arc. 

 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

45 minutes ago, Aon Tia said:

answers, long awaited answers!

What answers? What did we learn that we did not know already? We got some teases about the shattered plains and Braize, but I feel like we already pretty much knew everything else

[Sedside she/her]

1 hour ago, Aon Tia said:

She will be a mojor player in SA 6-10. It is a mid way book. I actually like that we have a mystery power and a possible contender to Retribution sitting right in his backyard and he can not do anything about it!

My problem with this explanation is the example of the other books. There are plenty of things in WoK, WoR and OB that are important for the next books, but none of them feel like dropped there just to be there, because it has to be introduced. It's either hinted at and feels like something crucial for the story, but not taking too much of our attention and anticipation, like the Thrill in WoK/WoR, or if it's fully introduced, like the Unmade in OB, it's been immediately used in a satisfying way.

Ba-Ado-Mishram had a lot of hype for a couple of previous books, and the buildup of this book was centered around her as well, Ghostbloods want her, Shallan wants her, the Recreance is about her, she threatened to kill Shallan's loved ones and so on, and in the end we get nothing. If this is a buildup for the next books, it looks like a huge cliffhanger for how long? decade or so? This is frustrating.

The shardpool is less frustrating, but more confusing. It looks like a sudden info bump coming out of nowhere leading nowhere.

[Aon Tia she/her]

On 12/16/2024 at 1:03 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

What answers? What did we learn that we did not know already? We got some teases about the shattered plains and Braize, but I feel like we already pretty much knew everything else

We learnt that honor had gone to Ashyn chasing Odium! The two had engaged in this war at Ashyn, both were equally responsible for providing surges to humans and the ultimate destruction of Ashyn and not just Rayse. 

We learnt how and why the heralds were chosen, I want to know why and how Taln had tried to kill Cultivation, we learnt how the deal was made between the 3 gods

also that Honor was present at the time of ahreitiem and he allowed the oathpact to be put on Taln alone! That he could have helped more, he could have helped heralds, replaced them but he chose not to. As desolations continued, he gave more and more access to Heralds of his power, thereby accelerating their suffering! 

we also learn how a 2nd deal was made between Honor and Odium where he had agreed for the contest of champions. 

We learn that BAM was a contender to Odium's power! and that Honor agreed to imprison BAM. Then he allowed and rather instigated his radiants to draw BAM into negotiations for peace, only so that he could backstab her and imprison her!   

I did not know all of that! the level of Tanavast's failure despite his good intentions! 

it was interesting to learn just how flawed, utterly unprepared these vessels for the power of the shards! 

And this is the first time (that we know of) where a vessel has been rejected by a shard and has died as a result of.  

Edited December 30, 2024 by Aon Tia

[eriwancoselyn]

8 minutes ago, Aon Tia said:

We learnt that honor had gone to Ashyn chasing Odium! The two had engaged in this war at Ashyn, both were equally responsible for providing surges to humans and the ultimate destruction of Ashyn and not just Rayse. 

We learnt how and why the heralds were chosen, I want to know why and how Taln had tried to kill Cultivation, we learnt how the deal was made between the 3 gods

also that Honor was present at the time of ahreitiem and he allowed the oathpact to be put on Taln alone! That he could have helped more, he could have helped heralds, replaced them but he chose not to. As desolations continued, he gave more and more access to Heralds of his power, thereby accelerating their suffering! 

we also learn how a 2nd deal was made between Honor and Odium where he had agreed for the contest of champions. 

We learn that BAM was a contender to Odium's power! and that Honor agreed to imprison BAM. Then he allowed and rather instigated his radiants to draw BAM into negotiations for peace, only so that he could backstab her and imprison her!   

I did not know all of that! the level of Tanavast's failure despite his good intentions! 

it was interesting to learn just how flawed, utterly unprepared these vessels for the power of the shards! 

Rhythm of War gave more cosmere info than any of the books before it. But it's considered to be far and away the worst stormlight book. 

These answers only have any value to us, none of the characters or conflicts have been meaningfully changed by the info you listed. It's interesting, but it's not important.

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, eriwancoselyn said:

These answers only have any value to us, none of the characters or conflicts have been meaningfully changed by the info you listed.

 

They very much inform Dalinar's final decision. In fact, it would have been impossible without them.

They provide  clues to finding Mishram and inform the decision to set her free. 

They are very likely to be important for those characters involved who will be instrumental in the second half of SA, but that's beyond the scope of this book.

 

[eriwancoselyn]

9 minutes ago, Isilel said:

They very much inform Dalinar's final decision. In fact, it would have been impossible without them.

Do they really tho? I need to know what you mean by 'inform his decision'. In my eyes, Dalinar would have refused to kill an innocent no matter when in the book he was forced to make the choice. If you mean the ascending to honor and his decisions after that, that's a LOT of lead up for very little reward. Like, is there anything in the visions which Cultivation couldn't have just told him? Even just the basic, 'A direct confrontation will destroy the world' would suffice to drive him to his decision.

15 minutes ago, Isilel said:

They provide  clues to finding Mishram and inform the decision to set her free. 

The clues aren't relevant to the characters, they're an arbitrary obstacle set up by the book to make the journey take time. Only one of the visions really informs the decision to free Mishram. The others aren't necessary for that. Releasing Mishram means nothing for this book.

21 minutes ago, Isilel said:

They are very likely to be important for those characters involved who will be instrumental in the second half of SA, but that's beyond the scope of this book.

If you want to talk about this, be specific.

[logicless.bt]

1 hour ago, eriwancoselyn said:

 

The clues aren't relevant to the characters, they're an arbitrary obstacle set up by the book to make the journey take time. Only one of the visions really informs the decision to free Mishram. The others aren't necessary for that. Releasing Mishram means nothing for this book.

Glad someone is putting into words how I've been feeling. Characters in previous books act with agency throughout the entirety of the novel, exploring and changing the world around them and interacting with other characters. The Spiritual Realm shenanigans reduced Dalinar and Navani (and once the Ghostbloods vanished, Shallan) to vehicles of world building with no agency. They observe what they're supposed to observe and comment on it and their own personal trauma, but that's the only thing they do for like 7 days. Renarin and Rlain are better because we know less about them and at least their relationship together is developing.

I'm especially frustrated because Shallan is my favorite and this is the second book where her entire plotline resolves into basically nothing. RoW promises more to come with the Ghostblood war, but then the Ghostbloods fail to interact with Shallan in a meaningful way from days 3-10.

This is also a symptom of how splitting up harmed character interactions this book. The SR characters aside from the romance boys had 0 interesting interactions with each other, with Navani being particularly painful. Sigzil's story was pure combat with no character development save day 10 (this is a recurring theme). Venli's side explores the listener-Fused relationship nicely, but they also hardly interact with the war until the 9th/10th day. Adolin and Kaladin's stories do better because they have more characters that we know or, in Adolin's case, they work very hard to build a cast we care about.

[Isilel]

3 hours ago, eriwancoselyn said:

In my eyes, Dalinar would have refused to kill an innocent no matter when in the book he was forced to make the choice.

 

Yes, but without the visions, he would have just sacrificed himself, while upholding the deal. It would have made absolutely no sense to me as a reader if he had made his ultimate decision without those experiences.

Even with them, I don't see it as being as brilliant as Hoid claims it is, particularly since Dalinar forgetting about the spren _yet again_ would have lead to an unmitigated disaster if someone hadn't taken action wholly independently of and unbeknownst to him. But I understand the logic.

 

3 hours ago, eriwancoselyn said:

If you mean the ascending to honor and his decisions after that, that's a LOT of lead up for very little reward.

 

How is a fundamental change of status quo "little reward"?

 

3 hours ago, eriwancoselyn said:

Like, is there anything in the visions which Cultivation couldn't have just told him?

 

Nothing she could have told him would have let him pick up Honor, see the futility of hanging on to it and then tempt Taravangian into picking it instead. 

 

3 hours ago, eriwancoselyn said:

The clues aren't relevant to the characters, they're an arbitrary obstacle

 

They are wholly consistent with the established mechanism for how Connection works. 

It is difficult to say whether Mishram's release, or impending release (due to Spirit Realm shenanigans) affected what happened with the UnOathed, or what consequences the revival of all deadeyes is going to have. 

I can hardly be specific about Mishram's role in the second arc, because a lot can happen and the trio's Connection to her , as well as other information that they received from visions can come into play in a number of ways. I do think that the 2 visions with her have been instrumental in Renarin choosing the path he intends to take in the end. Etc.

 

3 hours ago, eriwancoselyn said:

 

 

[spootime]

4 hours ago, logicless.bt said:

Glad someone is putting into words how I've been feeling. Characters in previous books act with agency throughout the entirety of the novel, exploring and changing the world around them and interacting with other characters. The Spiritual Realm shenanigans reduced Dalinar and Navani (and once the Ghostbloods vanished, Shallan) to vehicles of world building with no agency. They observe what they're supposed to observe and comment on it and their own personal trauma, but that's the only thing they do for like 7 days. Renarin and Rlain are better because we know less about them and at least their relationship together is developing.

I'm especially frustrated because Shallan is my favorite and this is the second book where her entire plotline resolves into basically nothing. RoW promises more to come with the Ghostblood war, but then the Ghostbloods fail to interact with Shallan in a meaningful way from days 3-10.

This is also a symptom of how splitting up harmed character interactions this book. The SR characters aside from the romance boys had 0 interesting interactions with each other, with Navani being particularly painful. Sigzil's story was pure combat with no character development save day 10 (this is a recurring theme). Venli's side explores the listener-Fused relationship nicely, but they also hardly interact with the war until the 9th/10th day. Adolin and Kaladin's stories do better because they have more characters that we know or, in Adolin's case, they work very hard to build a cast we care about.

Yeah if you remove every single Shallan chapter from this book nothing really changes. Ba ado mishram may or may not be free due to the actions of the Ghostbloods in the spirit realm but her being free or not doesn't affect the plot. 

I think an actual spy vs spy conflict between the Ghostbloods and the unseen court could have been really cool. Unfortunately we only get a few pages and then the lightweavers disappear while Shallan witnesses exposition events in the spirit realm. 

[heridfel]

16 minutes ago, spootime said:

Yeah if you remove every single Shallan chapter from this book nothing really changes. Ba ado mishram may or may not be free due to the actions of the Ghostbloods in the spirit realm but her being free or not doesn't affect the plot. 

I think an actual spy vs spy conflict between the Ghostbloods and the unseen court could have been really cool. Unfortunately we only get a few pages and then the lightweavers disappear while Shallan witnesses exposition events in the spirit realm. 

Thank you for saying this. I felt the same way. Shallan’s struggles, more than any other character’s, are internal. She learned things about herself and her past, but had nothing to do with the central conflict of the contest between Odium and Dalinar. The Ghostbloods are tied to the greater cosmere, but if Shallan hadn’t killed Mraize and Iyatil, nothing would have changed in this book. To me, she feels like a secondary character masquerading as a primary character, with most of her actions feeling like foreshadowing for when something will finally matter.

I liked the second half of the book better than the first. The preview chapters had left me  with a bit of trepidation as we bounced from viewpoint to viewpoint without anything really happening, and while the multiple viewpoints arguably got worse in the latter half of the book, it felt like the story was moving along again.

I wish that Brandon had focused on fewer characters. I know this is the finale of the first major arc and we all have our favorite characters, but getting a couple paragraphs at the end of a chapter for Jasnah or Sigzil to remind us that yes, they’re still doing something on Day X seemed to distract from the more meaningful storylines. If those characters had gotten dedicated interludes instead at their most important moments, I think it would worked better than the vignettes like “here is the Mink being an escape artist” or “here is Ryan deciding to leave”.

[Ain Soph]

Haven't posted here in forever but I finished WaT last week, and have been ruminating....

By the time I hit the end, I was emotionally and mentally exhausted. A lot happens. A lot is implied. Some of it I adore, some of it I dislike, and a lot of it I'm still not sure about. I don't think I can call this a home run for Sanderson....but it's still good and I think I need to give it another read through and get a different perspective on it. And of course, a lot of this was really prologue for 6, so it'll look different once things are in the rearview and we can see where the threads are going.

Always figured this was gonna be a "Empire Strikes Back" ending where the heroes lose, but escape complete annihilation so it still kind of feels like a win. We definitely got that.

Best part by far was Kaladin, Syl, and Szeth. The entire Shinovar segment felt like a different book entirely, and it was refreshing. I'm glad we had those chapters of relative optimism and happiness to contrast with...everything else. The whole quest is practically quaint compared to the chaos across Roshar and I'm glad Kaladin and Szeth got to have that. And I was never a Syladin shipper but did anyone else get that vibe from them? I actually find myself rooting for that outcome now; they have the most intimate, fun relationship here, and it felt physical in a way it didn't back at the start. Not just the fact that Syl is normal sized and gaining mass, but some of the conversations, my gods. 

Didn't expect Kaladin to become a Herald, seemed too obvious. The whole sequence felt rushed though, and didn't feel like it had the import it should. That said I'm happy with the development. I'm far less happy about Kal hitting the 5th Ideal and us not getting to see what it can do. That was crazy disappointing. And the alteration of the Oathpact deserved a lot more attention; I know Ishar explained the basic 'science' of it, and how he was able to change it to avoid the torture, but it needed a lot more page time. And Syl is now the....Storm Mother? Seems like she might be the biggest chunk of Honor left, so both she and Kaladin end up with crowns. Ha! If only 'lighteyes suck!' Kaladin from WoR could see himself now.

Szeth was never my favorite character and I found his flashbacks and PoV's just a little boring compared to everything else, but it was a solid showing and I approve of how his arc wrapped. I'm glad he got married and seemed to live happily ever after. But you can skip Ideals? Don't like that. I'm not happy with how rushed Szeth's elevation was either. Seemed appropriate for Szeth to break his bond with 12124/Aux, it was the right choice for him in that moment, but who told Sanderson it was a good idea to show us two 5th Ideal Radiants and have both of them do nothing? 

Actually, with Szeth disarmed (too soon?) and out of the fight, maybe the 'villain on a redemption arc' role will fall to Moash in the back 5. I'd rather the man die a traitor's death as he deserves, and he's never shown a hint of wanting to atone, but I can see Sanderson maybe doing it. 

Nightblood is absolutely horrifying. Presumably he learned Surges from all the Blades yes? Is there a more dangerous weapon this side of a Dawnshard? And I love that he's starting to question philosophy. 

Adolin had a quality showing and I like how his arc resolved. He's always been the lowkey, invisibly broken one; the one who seems to have it all together while quietly struggling and it's thematically perfect for him to have his revelations without becoming Radiant; that was never the direction for him. I had also come up with the theory that he and Maya would be able to utilize dead Blades for Adolin's forces and I was thrilled to be right about it. Adolin is the viewpoint character for the regular troops, being able to give them dead Blades/Plate is a pitch-perfect ability. Though now that Honor's rules are gone, those deadeyes might not be dead anymore.

Enjoyed Rlain and Renarin, it's about time those two got more focus. I'm pretty sure them releasing Mishram is going to decide the fate of worlds. Would've been nice if we'd seen one/both of them say the Words and level up though. Still, they were practically the only people acting with any agency in the Spiritual Realm. 

Shallan's arc feels like it was really just build up for 6-10 somehow. I was hoping for a big confrontation between the Unseen Court and Ghostbloods, but it seems like she only managed to take down middle management. I think her development was alright, she dealt with a few more issues, we got a better look at her wedding....it was fine, but definitely not the kind of high-end send off I expected. Her being stuck in Shadesmar is potentially interesting, but that feels like 'time skip' stuff we won't see much of. Her being pregnant....what happens to kids born in the Cognitive Realm?

Too much time spent on Mishram. Clearly that's 6-10 setup and I'm sure it needed to happen, but I wish Sanderson had condensed it more.

Stuff with Sig was alright. But a giant, all-out war between Surgebinders deserved more detail and time. And Sunlit connections! His poor spren. But I do like that he's on the Sunlit path now, I wasn't sure if that stuff would start to happen to him yet. And he's got Aux, and a non-Nale group of Skybreakers to eventually run into. Plus, y'know, a Dawnshard that'll haunt him the rest of his life....

The 'Wind/Stone/Night' stuff...it kinda felt like it came out of nowhere but when you consider it, this has been set up from the start. It was always an easy assumption that the singers had gods before Honor arrived on Roshar, and that's history so deep nobody remembers it but an echo of it was always there in the phrases and monologues, removed from how people spoke of normal spren or the Stormfather. With the Shards gone, those ancient sprengods are coming back. Makes sense, but it's all prologue for 6.

I also dislike how passive Dalinar was here. And despite being with Navani and Gav for most of the book I feel like they didn't get any time together. What we learned about Honor and Roshar's history is still spinning my head around, and I'm glad Dalinar got the answers he was after, but after four books he finally lost momentum, right at the end. And I was kind of right in the fact that the Blackthorn would've simply killed an innocent and claimed victory while the Bondsmith, who built the Colalition and got everyone this far, wouldn't be able to take that last step.

Gav....him being Champion was called ages ago but why age him up? Felt pointless; his mom ingested an Unmade and he was screwed with by voidspren for who knows how long; Odium could have easily manipulated the kid back then, turning him into a potential knife for Dalinar's back without the unnecessary step of making him an adult. Truth, it'd have felt even more powerful if Gav had been a kid challenging the Blackthorn. 

The Cognitive Shadow Blackthorn, or whatever it is....I always figured Dalinar would end this book fighting for Odium but I didn't see this coming and I don't care for it. It feels....cheap. But maybe that'll be a major factor in 6-10; it's not the real Blackthorn and that might be his undoing. 

RoW pretty much promised us that Odium and Honor would merge here, and they did, but the entire Contest was such a rushed mix of chaos. I think the events were fine; Odium using a champion Dalinar won't hurt to ensure a victory, Dalinar finally getting Honor only to realize he'll still lose so he loses the battle to win the war and force the other Shards to take action....okay, that's fine, cool. But it needed like, twice as many pages and a deeper exploration. Less time in the visions, more time spent on the Contest would've been nice.

Enjoyed Lift, Rysn, and the other interludes. Wish there was more of The Lopen. 

And this post is already three times longer than it had a right to be. Apologies, just had to get some of this out.

[eriwancoselyn]

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

Yes, but without the visions, he would have just sacrificed himself, while upholding the deal. It would have made absolutely no sense to me as a reader if he had made his ultimate decision without those experiences.

Even with them, I don't see it as being as brilliant as Hoid claims it is, particularly since Dalinar forgetting about the spren _yet again_ would have lead to an unmitigated disaster if someone hadn't taken action wholly independently of and unbeknownst to him. But I understand the logic.

I'm not sure you can know that. Especially if all of the extra space in the book was then used to do something that's more fulfilling for his character. We could still get him to that point. Specifically how does it make no sense to you? 

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

How is a fundamental change of status quo "little reward"?

Sorry, I've been unclear. Little reward in that it only informs a five second decision and I think we could have made better use of the leadup time to this decision.

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

Nothing she could have told him would have let him pick up Honor, see the futility of hanging on to it and then tempt Taravangian into picking it instead. 

No, but Cultivation could have told him all the events in the visions. I totally agree that, after that convo, we would then do some work to make that decision happen. The lore dumps aren't necessary for that decision, is the point.

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

They are wholly consistent with the established mechanism for how Connection works. 

Could you be more specific about this?

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

It is difficult to say whether Mishram's release, or impending release (due to Spirit Realm shenanigans) affected what happened with the UnOathed, or what consequences the revival of all deadeyes is going to have. 

ok, I'm not sure which second vision is important to you, but I'm glad we could come to some consensus on that. the others don't matter for the decision to free mishram. All of your listed benefits are world building things, not character things. Maybe only Adolin truly has a stake in the return of the deadeyes. And Maya was already on the up and up.

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

I can hardly be specific about Mishram's role in the second arc, because a lot can happen and the trio's Connection to her , as well as other information that they received from visions can come into play in a number of ways. I do think that the 2 visions with her have been instrumental in Renarin choosing the path he intends to take in the end. Etc.

plotlines should work wholly within the scope of one book, while also being enjoyable when looking at the bigger picture. if it needs the context of other books to make me care, it's not working correctly. this is especially important on the final book of the first half.

[ANHlittleinsane girl but gendern't mostly]

Y’all I think Roshar’s bouta crab its last storm

[Aon Tia she/her]

10 hours ago, spootime said:

Yeah if you remove every single Shallan chapter from this book nothing really changes. Ba ado mishram may or may not be free due to the actions of the Ghostbloods in the spirit realm but her being free or not doesn't affect the plot. 

A lot of the fans and readers out there do not keep up with all the information and fan theories as we, the ones active on 17th shard or discord, do. There is a huge fanbase out there who did not already know about the Shallan's mother = Chana! It is one big reveal that comes from her chapters it will have further impact on the story. 

if BAM were released by Ghostbloods, it would have led to something catastrophic for the humans! Mraize would have goaded her and god knows used her for what! Her being released by Renarin and Rlain, another human-singer couple, played a huge role in her not instantly destroying all the humans on Roshar and choosing to sit tight, observe and act in the future. Her being free to be a contender for Odium or even retribution int he future is a big plot!

[masaru]

Apologies for rambling...

Finished the book last night. I had muted all the subreddits and tried very hard to avoid any discussion. Came to 17th this morning to see what I missed. I'm getting the impression that this book is more controversial than Rhythm of War was.

I found it to be a pretty fun adventure for the most part, with some hard truths, and a lot of things I'm sympathetic to (therapy, trauma, emotional learning). I find the complaints about Gavinor to be strange given that was the one theory I saw over and over again the past couple years.

That brings me to theories and outcomes in general. Brandon's books are susceptible to theories and it's part of our culture going back to the WoT days. But theories can almost create a false reality for readers. Disappointment when theories don't pan out, or boredom when they do. I think it's one reason I scaled back from participating. Some of the enjoyment of the story is lost when I'm just looking for confirmations and secrets in the books. I think this was the first book of Brandon's I actively tried to ignore theories for in the lead up. YMMV.

I thought the "debate" was interesting as a moral philosophy discussion (holla Good Place fans) but overlong. Just felt they were going in circles at various points, and T-guy was massively sealioning Jasnah at every turn. Made me think Brandon is pretty tired of the internet. 

The final confrontation with Odium and Dalinar's decision. Unexpected, clever, sad. Made me dislike Taravangian even more. He's the ultimate utilitarian who can justify anything. My moral philosophy tends more towards Dalinar's perspective where losing sight of actual people in favor of "greater good" is a failing. That said, Dalinar ultimately did serve a greater good by giving up Honor to turn the cosmere against Odium. It's going to take awhile to fully unpack the moral ramifications of his decision.

Kaladin the therapist was great, although that plot line was a little bit of a slog at times, maybe because I just don't really care about Szeth that much. 

Adolin had the best storyline of the book. He's a good boy.

Really enjoyed and was surprised by the "history of Roshar" bit. Brandon got his Shadow Rising sequence. I got the impression that he was talking directly to his own church through some of this. Pulling back the curtain on the reality behind mythology is illuminating. Now I really want to read the backstory to Ashyn. 

I loved the entire denouement sequence, seeing everyone picking up the pieces and set up their futures. Would love to see a novella following Shallan's adventures in Shadesmar. Very curious to see what happens in the dystopian time gap. 

Overall, I place this book after Words of Radiance in ranking. WoR > WaT > WoK > RoW > OB... I think. I'm kind of glad there is a big gap until book 6. Gives me time to do a proper reread. 

[duladen he/him]

A solidly good book. In my personal rankings, I'd put it middle of the pack below Wor/OB, above RoW, equal or slightly below WoK.

Loved LOVED Adolin's storyline. Loved Renarin and Rlain. Loved Kaladin and Szeth. Loved seeing lots of theories confirmed and Death Rattles resolved.

While the rest of the Spiritual Realm sequences were amazing from a lore/answers perspective, I felt the whole process dragged. There was just SO MUCH for Dalinar to witness. Pacing overall felt really strange to me.

Very disappointed that we didn't get more BAM, didn't learn the "price" of using Dai-Gonarthis, and didn't even meet the Dustmother. Disappointed we didn't see Taln fight. Disappointed we didn't see Chasmfiends vs Thunderclast. Disappointed we didn't have more El. I thought Sig's failure was going to be more profound, and also Moash was a flop.

The debate and the Listener trick were both kind of meh.

I was not excited at the reveal of Gavinor Champion, but it ended up not really mattering so I think it was actually well handled. The contest was essentially a big fake out, and I think enough was done to set up that there was never going to be a way for Dalinar to win other than the sacred right of "peacing the F*@k out".

Overall, there was a lot to like. Obviously things not to like. But in the end, I think Brando stuck the landing and I really like how the world has been staged for the back half.

[Texside he/him/his]

I finished last night, and I liked it a lot. I have some quibbles here and there, but...

Overall, I felt this was a very strong conclusion the first arc. It wrapped up Dalinar's character arc in a way that was very satisfying, and it did so while looking at mysteries about the Shards and the Cosmere. I admit that, decades after reading Hero of Ages, seeing a long-form viewpoint from a Shard just openly discussing Adonalsium and whatnot... yeah, it hit me in the fanboy. But so did seeing Dalinar grow, and especially recontextualizing some stuff he did in earlier books. I already felt for Elhokar; I did more. But I liked seeing him grow right up til the end.

Adolin, too, had a killer arc -- I think Azimir was my favorite arc of the series. I've always been a huge fan of Adolin, from Way of Kings, and part of that is just finding Shardblade and Shardplate action scenes cool. But the way he grew -- his arc from the first book to now -- showed his best parts, while he also had to grapple with other problems. And the supporting cast around him was great, and I really want to see more of Azimir in the second half.

Shallan also had a good arc, even if it felt a bit more like an epilogue. I liked the Chana Davar confirmation, tho.

I didn't expect to like Kaladin's arc as much -- he felt done to me, I wasn't that into Syladin, and I honestly thought "Kaladin becomes a new Herald" was a bad end. But... Brandon pulled it off. This is why he's my favorite author; he wrote both in a way that convinced me. Kal and Syl's interactions were cute (the dance!) and Kaladin making it so the Heralds can heal... yeah. That was perfect.

The quibbles are smaller: I didn't think the Listeners getting the Plains back had quite the punch I expected, I wanted Moash to get resolved and not so much, and the debate was... ennnh. I didn't hate it but I didn't love it.

I love the world state it set up, though. I'm excited to see where these characters and the story goes when we're back in Roshar.

[𝖂𝖍𝖎𝖗𝖙𝖊]

Just finished the book. I don't know what to say other than that I'm stunned. I anticipated some of that, but wow. Just wow. What a crescendo. Can't wait for book six.

Spoiler

I guessed when navani and raboniel first made warlight that the two shards were going to mix, but I thought that Dalinar would win and pick up both to create Unity. I don't think I've ever seen Hoid so utterly stunned.

Kaladin is one of my favorite characters and to see him finally reach the fifth oath was supremely satisfying. 

Edited December 18, 2024 by WhiteHairedDrifter

[Keitea]

Quote

Adolin, too, had a killer arc -- I think Azimir was my favorite arc of the series. I've always been a huge fan of Adolin, from Way of Kings, and part of that is just finding Shardblade and Shardplate action scenes cool. But the way he grew -- his arc from the first book to now -- showed his best parts, while he also had to grapple with other problems. And the supporting cast around him was great, and I really want to see more of Azimir in the second half.

I really liked Azimir's arc, and I am curious about what's for them in the future.

There is probably going to be a huge disparity between Urithuru VS Azir VS the rest of Roshar.

The Roshar under Retribution has its light (warlight ?). The new world, almost all of Roshar, is going to build around that.

Urithuru will still have their Radiants, spren and fabrials and will develop this. We have already seen what a big jump of technology there was with the fabrials, with their now isolation they will probably double down on that path (though it might depends of wether or not the Sibling goes dormant).

And meanwhile, Azir is probably going to be quite far behind. They might have a small number of Unoathed, but otherwise are cut from everything. The dependancy on fabrials and stormlight also has generally very much slowed down Roshar in other technological progress, which means they at the stade of using candles to provide light while Urithuru has lifts and floating transportation devices.

Edited December 18, 2024 by Keitea

[Texside he/him/his]

37 minutes ago, Keitea said:

 

There is probably going to be a huge disparity between Urithuru VS Azir VS the rest of Roshar.

The Roshar under Retribution has its light (warlight ?). The new world, almost all of Roshar, is going to build around that.

Urithuru will still have their Radiants, spren and fabrials and will develop this. We have already seen what a big jump of technology there was with the fabrials, with their now isolation they will probably double down on that path (though it might depends of wether or not the Sibling goes dormant).

And meanwhile, Azir is probably going to be quite far behind. They might have a small number of Unoathed, but otherwise are cut from everything. The dependancy on fabrials and stormlight also has generally very much slowed down Roshar in other technological progress, which means they at the stade of using candles to provide light while Urithuru has lifts and floating transportation devices.

Oooh that's a fantastic point. I didn't consider that -- they're going to have trouble. It makes me wonder if they're going to explore non-fabrial technology or not. They've got an agricultural advantage but... 

I'll be curious to see how it shakes out. 

[Cade Strauss]

I loved the ending of this book. I came into it with a lot of different theories I'd either heard or came up with myself, and Brandon masterfully subverted my expectations and came up with a unique, powerful, and crazy ending. The more I think about it, the better and better Dalinar's decision appears to me. This book sets up Roshar for a struggle, but it's not a crushing defeat. The key players survived. The spren are safe. There is no more stormlight, but Urithiru is safe and Azir is well defended. The Unoathed can hold it for now. Yes, certain characters ended in a world of hurt. Jasnah is the lowest we've ever seen her. Shallan is alone. Sigzil is heading off-world. However, they're truly set up to grow and make a massive push. So while this book ended with a shadow over it, I think the heroes are set up to make a huge comeback. 

- Adolin and his Unoathed will turn Azir into a refuge and continue to fight against the fused.

- Sigzil has been set upon his Nomad journey and will begin to grow in that world.

- Lift is training with starving Vasher and is clearly setup to be one of the main, if not the main character of Era 2. 

- Szeth will live peacefully, although in darkness, with his wife-to-be in Shinovar.

- Kaladin is a storming herald! The heralds are going to be pivotal to Era 2, especially as they're going to regain their sanity.

- Retribution. Oh, poor Retribution. Taravangian has been set up to fail in so many ways. He has no time to plan. The other Shards want to destroy him. Dalinar has embedded a time bomb inside of Retribution in the form of Honor's power gaining sentience and watching, leading to what I believe will be an eventual splitting of Retribution's power in the pivotal moment. In addition all of this, Taravangian is weak. He has kept his city alive, afraid of losing them. Taravangian could not make the decision to kill them. That will come back to bite them, even though it was good and merciful, as it was going back on his word. 

All in all, this book satisfied my with its ending. Dalinar's arc made sense and was glorious. Gavinor will turn good, I'm confident, and prove a powerful ally against Taravangian. The stakes have been raised all around in the Cosmere, and I can't wait to see what happens next.

[Texside he/him/his]

1 hour ago, Cade Strauss said:

Taravangian is weak. He has kept his city alive, afraid of losing them. Taravangian could not make the decision to kill them. That will come back to bite them, even though it was good and merciful, as it was going back on his word. 

This plot point was one of my favorites in the ending. It's so good and it's so juicy. 

[+Wax he/him]

On 12/17/2024 at 8:42 AM, Ain Soph said:

Seems like she might be the biggest chunk of Honor left,

In the Retribution forming scene, a few chunks of Honor split off and leave before the merge.

[Knuti]

I finished reading and I am super content. Last week in between I was super euphoric.

My order of preference is:

WoR, WaT, OB, WoK, RoW

What I absolutely loved (besides the epic skope - I am an absolute fan of epic fantasy with its sprawling stories and side stories) is that it was impossible to immerse into the environemnt, everything changed. it brought the charakter-arcs to a conclusion and turned the tables for the second half at the same time.  It had everything.

Some minor  quibbling:

Gavinior: The idea ot the child champion is ok, the boy is a plot device. Compare that to the  masterful writing of Evi, who many authors would have fridged.

What were the ghostbloods, their respective  factions up to?    I do not know. Worse, there is a decent chance, that it becomes plot relevant in Mistborn-Era 3, or that Shallan will make a guest appearance (without charakter development??). That would break certain promises, that  are already stretched to the limit.

Exported earth terminoly: to comment another  thread, I am absolutely ok  with modern language. Far better than the language of Sir Walter Scott and Tolkien - European Middle Age seen through the lens of European Romantic. But to use a term like (psycho)therapy means to include all the mental associations from Siegmund Freud to the American handbook ( sorry, do not know the name as a German). If Roshar invents the concept, it should invent their terminoly too.

A question to the Azimir plotline. It was stated, that reinforcements coulld not come, because  split-off of the vassal states But the  troupes made the  bulk of the coalition's conventional army. I am a military layman, but shouldn't they have split with one part doing delaying action and one part hastening with all speed to Azir? Was that ever discussed?

Ok,  that should be enough, other parts, when I come to or if I  find threads for them.