+Crossen Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 (edited) Aesudan is Pailiah. Evidence: Their appearances look very similar, especially when comparing their Coppermind pictures. Pailiah's attributes are Learned and Giving. Aesudan seems to portray the exact opposite attributes, which is in line with the similar moral corruption of the other Heralds. She was present at the feast the night of Galivar's death, like most of the other Herald's. Very little it known about her past or how she got her high standing. Jasnah backed out on having Liss assassinate her. It would be a clever twist of fate if Jasnah ended up asking a Herald to assassinate another Herald (the common theory is that Liss is Vedel). At the end of Oathbringer she hints that she knew of Gavilar's grand plans, or at least knows a lot more than Elhokar. She seems to know a lot more about the Unmade than just a normal person. WoR I-12 - Lahn : The Aesudan Chapter The top chapter icon is Pailiah Queen Aesudan's ardent featured in the chapter is named Pai, very similar to Pailiah. It is mentioned that Aesudan thinks that the Almighty isn't pleased with her. I doubt Honor was pleased with the Heralds. "She's the Almighty's chosen". Clever choice of words. Two chapters later Taravangian swears by Pailiah's mind. Thoughts? EDIT: As a second theory I have just been thinking what Aesudan has been up to as a Herald. One lingering question has been who has stolen Taln's Honorblade? Since Taln loses his blade between Kholinar and the Shattered Plains, Aesudan (as Pailiah) would be the first person with the motive, means and opportunity to take the Honorblade. Edited February 26 by Crossen 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biceratops Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 (edited) Unfortunately, we have confirmation that Pailiah is an ardent in Kharbrant. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/139-general-signed-books-2017/#e4419 Edited February 25 by Biceratops 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Crossen Posted February 25 Author Report Share Posted February 25 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Biceratops said: Unfortunately, we have confirmation that Pailiah is an ardent in Kharbrant. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/139-general-signed-books-2017/#e4419 That was semi-retracted by Brandon. https://wob.coppermind.net/entry/11521 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/367-skyward-release-party/#e11589 Also there is no visual source for that WoB. As it is supposedly from a signed book that was never posted. The Herald close to Taravagian is now nearly confirmed to be Battar under the alias Dova. Edited February 25 by Crossen 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Child of Hodor Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 On 2/25/2024 at 3:42 PM, Crossen said: That was semi-retracted by Brandon. https://wob.coppermind.net/entry/11521 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/367-skyward-release-party/#e11589 Also there is no visual source for that WoB. As it is supposedly from a signed book that was never posted. The Herald close to Taravagian is now nearly confirmed to be Battar under the alias Dova. This is a well put together theory, I see where you are coming from. Thanks for finding that the WoB has been walked back. I didn't realize that. It kind of doesn't make sense for more than one Herald to be living in the same place. Nale and Kalak talk a good amount, but they've both got their own separate secret societies. I always thought Paliah made more sense as Dova. The place is named after her, she is the Truthwatcher Herald, one of the two with healing (Regrowth). Working in a secret hospital to murder patients to see the potential future (instead of the Truth) fits with the very specific inversion these heralds exhibit in their madness. Renarin sees the future but his spren has been "enlightened". Taravangian says he thinks she's Battar which he could be wrong about, but that would be kind of a silly secret. "I'm secretly a different Herald!!". That feels like a pointless twist since we don't know either Herald at all. Paliah is probably not Dova. Aesudan doesn't feel right as a Herald. I don't think he'd kill a Herald without letting us know a Herald had been killed. It would be a silly reveal 2 books later that a minor character who died was a Herald all along. SA5 Prologue spoiler: Quote I know Brandon basically does this with Shallan's mom being a Herald that died (probably) but that is a main characters mother. Also, Stormfather freaks out when a Herald dies in the prologue to 5. He doesn't freak out like that when Aesudan died. Stormfather is also behaving very differently with Dalinar than he did with Gavilar. Maybe he felt it and didn't say anything, but he doesn't seem to react or be troubled at all. Aesudan was working with Gavilar to bring the voidbringers back which means more torture for her. None of the other Heralds, as insane as they are, want that. Even Kalak is only interested in Gavilar's work for the purposes of escaping the system. Auesudan is a petty villain imo. She is very impressed with herself for accomplishing very little. She brags about attracting multiple unmade and getting one to bond with her. If she was a Herald she's been around the unmade for thousands of years and as a Herald is worshipped as a literal divinity in some countries and as basically an angel in other countries she would not be super proud of attracting a few unmade. She would also know that Yelig-nar would kill her fairly quickly and she would go back to be tortured on Braize, something all Heralds seem keen to avoid. Odium mentions that she died offhandedly at the climax of OB, but he doesn't seem to care that much. The death of a Herald would be a bigger deal to him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolsnow7 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 (edited) Let’s be real: none of this is dispositive. None of this is even close to strong evidence. And a point against is that it’s a bit weird for Heralds to integrate themselves into Alethi elite circles that heavily - at some point someone has to be like “so… who are your parents?” Not impossible to work around, but it’s a point against. All that said, I like this theory a lot. Right now we simply have no clue what Aesudan’s deal was in any way. Hell for all we know she survived her interaction with Yelig-Nar. It’s clear that whatever it is she’s doing, it’s the exact pathological opposite of what the Ardents are all about, and the Ardents seem to be in the mold of Pailaiah. Indeed, the chapter in WoR suggests that she thoroughly corrupted the Ardents; maybe they were in decline over time, but at a minimum she clearly sealed the deal in a significant way. Ironically the fact that there’s no dispositive evidence makes me like the theory more. Brandon tries to keep some secrets close to the chest, and given the giant void around Aesudan, this seems like that’s what’s happening. Edited February 29 by coolsnow7 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolsnow7 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 On 2/27/2024 at 11:12 AM, Child of Hodor said: I always thought Paliah made more sense as Dova. The place is named after her, she is the Truthwatcher Herald, one of the two with healing (Regrowth). Working in a secret hospital to murder patients to see the potential future (instead of the Truth) fits with the very specific inversion these heralds exhibit in their madness. Renarin sees the future but his spren has been "enlightened". Taravangian says he thinks she's Battar which he could be wrong about, but that would be kind of a silly secret. "I'm secretly a different Herald!!". That feels like a pointless twist since we don't know either Herald at all. Paliah is probably not Dova. Aesudan was working with Gavilar to bring the voidbringers back which means more torture for her. None of the other Heralds, as insane as they are, want that. Even Kalak is only interested in Gavilar's work for the purposes of escaping the system. Auesudan is a petty villain imo. She is very impressed with herself for accomplishing very little. She brags about attracting multiple unmade and getting one to bond with her. If she was a Herald she's been around the unmade for thousands of years and as a Herald is worshipped as a literal divinity in some countries and as basically an angel in other countries she would not be super proud of attracting a few unmade. She would also know that Yelig-nar would kill her fairly quickly and she would go back to be tortured on Braize, something all Heralds seem keen to avoid. Odium mentions that she died offhandedly at the climax of OB, but he doesn't seem to care that much. The death of a Herald would be a bigger deal to him. These are good points, but some of them are off the mark IMO. - Thematically I agree Pailaiah working at the hospital fits. But what is the payoff of Taravangian being wrong? “Haha! Actually Dova isn’t one Herald you’ve never met and have no flashbacks of, it’s a totally different one!” At this point we can safely presume that Taravangian has her identity right. - If anything, Aesudan working with Gavilar is further support - as you note Kalak is working with him too! So you can say “well his motivations were different” but we don’t know her’s in the first place, except for taking what she says at face value. - that said it is true that she comes off as a petty villain more than a significant force. We still don’t know anything about her, and given the emphasis put on her in the plot, I expect we will. In fact, she reminds me a lot of Gavilar himself. Could be that seeking her out was just Elhokar’s way of trying to live up to his father’s expectations, could be that Gavilar chose her for him like he’s trying with Jasnah, who knows. I think that if/when Gavilar himself plays more of a role in either Book 5 or back half, we’ll learn a lot more about Aesudan as well. - I’m not sure how much weight to put on Odium saying she’s dead. I lean towards “he probably wouldn’t lie” along with you. But it’s not a crazy possibility to suggest that he doesn’t want them to know she survived (or that she’s a Herald). Bottom line, I say: when we find out more about Gavilar we will learn more about her as his counterpart in some ways. But the one thing we can be sure of is that Brandon set her up as both the opposite of the Ardentia and as their corruptor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 On 2/25/2024 at 10:00 PM, Crossen said: Aesudan is Pailiah. Evidence: Their appearances look very similar, especially when comparing their Coppermind pictures. Pailiah's attributes are Learned and Giving. Aesudan seems to portray the exact opposite attributes, which is in line with the similar moral corruption of the other Heralds. She was present at the feast the night of Galivar's death, like most of the other Herald's. Very little it known about her past or how she got her high standing. Jasnah backed out on having Liss assassinate her. It would be a clever twist of fate if Jasnah ended up asking a Herald to assassinate another Herald (the common theory is that Liss is Vedel). At the end of Oathbringer she hints that she knew of Gavilar's grand plans, or at least knows a lot more than Elhokar. She seems to know a lot more about the Unmade than just a normal person. WoR I-12 - Lahn : The Aesudan Chapter The top chapter icon is Pailiah Queen Aesudan's ardent featured in the chapter is named Pai, very similar to Pailiah. It is mentioned that Aesudan thinks that the Almighty isn't pleased with her. I doubt Honor was pleased with the Heralds. "She's the Almighty's chosen". Clever choice of words. Two chapters later Taravangian swears by Pailiah's mind. Thoughts? EDIT: As a second theory I have just been thinking what Aesudan has been up to as a Herald. One lingering question has been who has stolen Taln's Honorblade? Since Taln loses his blade between Kholinar and the Shattered Plains, Aesudan (as Pailiah) would be the first person with the motive, means and opportunity to take the Honorblade. The theory is wild but it is nicely put and well argumented, I like it. However it's just impossible. Why? Yelig-Nar. He doesn't just kill his host, he consumes them entirely with their soul, just like Nightblood does. This is a permanent death, something that even a Herald bound to an Oathpact would not be able to survive. And this is something that other Heralds feel painfully well. None before Jezrien died, sensed another Herald dying. This is enough to conclude that Aesudan was not a Herald. OB ch 118: Quote “If you wish for the promised power, ingest that—then try to control the one who follows. But be warned, the queen at Kholinar tried this, and the power consumed her.” Spoiler asmodeus Do those consumed by Yelig-nar (like Aesudan, Amaram) appear briefly in Shadesmar after they die, but before they pass onto the beyond? Brandon Sanderson Yelig-nar consumes them entirely, like Nightblood. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) Spoiler Questioner [...] I'm 100% convinced Nightblood did kill the thunderclast, because Nightblood consumes all investiture, that's something I asked you back at Barnes and Noble a couple years ago, during Christmas and you said your soul is investiture. So my thought is, that thunderclast isn't coming back any time soon. Brandon Sanderson You are correct on that one. Questioner When I saw that, my thought was, "Yep, It's dead." Other people were like, "I don't know, will it come back?" Nope. Brandon Sanderson I'll tell you this. They have not run into something like this before, and there will be ramifications of what happened there. Questioner That is fun to know. Brandon Sanderson If you are used to death having no consequence, and suddenly your friend vanishes forever... Questioner Yeah I, know I already thought of that. They're going to fight over Nightblood. Brandon Sanderson Mmm. Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018) @coolsnow7 Please avoid double posting, it's against Shard's policy. Just edit your previous post instead - click the 3 dot menu in the top right corner of your post and choose the "edit" option: Hide contents Use the Edit link to make changes to a completed post or add information to your post if it is the most recent (to avoid double posting) Quote buttons will still send a quote to "Reply" if you have a post open for edit, but it is easy to cut/paste the quote to the Edit box Editing the first post in a thread allows the thread-creator to edit the thread title (important for changing accidental spoilers) Editing allows you to add a reason for the edit (Spelling and grammar (SPAG), formatting, clarification, new information, etc.), but it is not required. Likes, Mentions and Quotes should all send an alert to the appropriate person - even when added to an old post through the Edit feature. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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