Fallen_Ash

I still think it's odd to frame it as her rejecting him when she had never actually given any indication that she wanted a relationship with him, nor he her. Yeah they were flirty, and she drew pictures of him, but it wasn't like Kaladin was vying for her hand. I don't think they don't work, or couldn't work, but I wish that they had more opportunities to go through things together as a couple. The way they are written, to me they feel like an afterthought in each other's lives. I know he can write better couples, so IS it on purpose?! I'd love to ask him why Adolin, who can have chemistry with a dead Shardeblade, doesn't have any (or as much) with his own wife. I'm sure I'm reading too much into it, and it's just written that way because that's what the plot demands, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it as underdeveloped and underwhelming. With 1330 pages, I wish Brandon had cut Kaladin's "I'm glad she rejected me" musing and devoted a little more time to having them be a couple in a situation other than the shower.

Yes their interactions in WoR were great! And I know Brandon CAN write moments of emotional intimacy for characters, so I don't know why he off-screens so much with Adolin and Shallan. Shallan is basically like "okay I confided in Adolin and we're super in love, now it's time for my secret mission! See you sometime!" Kaladin got a more emotional interaction with both of them than they did with each other!! (In my opinion)

Just gonna get all my thoughts out here because I can't stop thinking about this book. (Note that I really never read forums so if something was a surprise to me that was already common knowledge in the fandom, that's why.) I'm mad that I didn't figure out Felt was a Ghostblood! He's from Era 1 Mistborn of course he's a Kelsier fanboy! However, re: Ghostbloods in general, I'm tired of being teased. With this series and MB Era 2, we keep getting all these hints about what the Ghostbloods are up to with no actual answers. They're just this shady force that are for some reason causing obstacles for our heroes. Like Felt captured Kalak and we never find out why. Kalak just returns to the Oathpact with everyone else. I was anticipating and looking forward to a lore-heavy book where we got some answers, so I really enjoyed the SR and Shinover parts. I kind of sped through the Adolin and Sigzil parts because one, they were so sad, and two, they didn't add a lot of new information to the story. I still enjoyed them, particularly Adolin working with Yanagawn and May and seeing Sigzil take on the leadership role we witnessed in TSM. I knew Sigzil would give up Vienta, but how it happened was heartbreaking. I know she's mad, but I thought it was so brave. He gave up everything to save her life. I've been looking forward to more deadeyes being healed, so that was great as well. I didn't know that readers had already figured out that Chana was Shallan's mom, so that blew my mind. I was thinking before this book that there couldn't possibly be any more secrets for Shallan to uncover, and I'm glad I was wrong. What does being the child of an immortal invested entity mean for Shallan and her brothers? But the most exciting part of that reveal was, of course, the official confirmation that TALN NEVER BROKE. Speaking of Taln, absolutely loved his moment. It brought me all the way back to the book 1 prelude, where the first thing you learn about him is that he'd pick impossible fights that he would usually win, and usually die in the process. I'm even more stoked to read his POV and find out why and how he tried to kill Cultivation. I've been looking forward to Szeth's backstory for years, and it did not disappoint. The little lamb toy destroyed me. My favorite part of the Szeth/Kaladin story though, other than Szeth finally realizing what we all know, that Kaladin really is as good as he seems, was Szeth standing up to Nale. "What rules did I violate, Nin-son-God?" I may be in the minority, but I was so touched that Szeth's dad didn't just abandon him to the monastery, but was a constant presence throughout his childhood. I also squealed over Rlain and Renarin. Lift is one of my favorite characters, and while I wish she had more screentime in these first five, I'm excited to see her growth. I love that she was able to save Vasher precisely because she wasn't off doing other important things. I hope he only corrupts her in fun ways, not sad ways. I didn't hate the Jasnah/Fen part. Fen has already been on the receiving end of Alethi skullduggery and so was already primed to be wary of the partnership, as much as she claims to trust the coalition. Plus it's good for Jasnah's character development to lose for once. I like when characters are forced to confront their hypocrisy. It will give her nuance in the back five. I know people expected Jasnah to perform better, but Taravangian knows her every weakness as both a man and a god, so she brought a knife to a gun fight. The ending: as divisive as it is, I loved it. Regardless of the outcome of the original contract, Odium would win. Even if Dalinar won, all Odium would lose is time. He never would have agreed to something where he could possibly be disadvantaged, so the only way for Team Free Will to win was not to play. Killing Gavinor would both prove Taravangian right (even though he's a hypocrite re: Kharbranth) and put the humans right where he wants them. Dalinar didn't give in to Taravangian's manipulation, didn't give him the satisfaction of Dalinar under his control, and didn't pass the buck for dealing with Odium down the road. Odium's downfall starts today, not in a thousand years. And what does Retribution really have? An army of slaves going insane and possibly defecting to the listeners, who hold the most important place in Roshar? Thaylena, which only came by force and so is likely to rebel? The Iriali left so he doesn't have them. Herdaz is up in the air. He removed his strongest player, Kharbranth, from the game. Based on his comment dismissing the Reshi Isles, and the king joining the coalition, I hope they come into play in the back five. That leaves him with Jah Kaved, Alethkar, some of the former Azish empire, and Shinovar. That's daunting, but not overwhelming. PLUS his actions are locked by the conflicting Shards AND now the other Shards are taking notice. He doesn't have 1,000 years to quietly plan his assault on the cosmere. I think he is in a worse position than he would have been in if Dalinar had won. Also, Kaladin didn't die, and gets to protect and help people nonviolently, which is literally the best possible outcome for him. I was prepared for him to die so this is definitely a step up! The Hoid POV at the very end gave us the most concrete timeline we've received so far: MB Era 2 takes place immediately after SA 5. I wonder if the trauma of losing Roshar, being disintegrated, and getting dumped informed his characterization in those books. Overall, I'm pumped to see what comes next. I'm excited to learn more about the cosmere things that have been teased, like the fourth moon and what's up with the Iriali. There's a lot of good stuff coming. My one complaint, however (other than the Ghostblood stuff), is that I have never been invested in Adolin and Shallan as a couple. I was trying to figure out why, and at first I thought it was because they're not passionate about each other, but I don't think that's it. What they lack is INTIMACY. They basically live parallel lives and come together once in a while to say "I love you" and have sex. Even when they are on the same mission, like in RoW, they hardly interact. Instead of helping Adolin with the trial, Shallan is focused on Ghostblood business. It's great that they say they support each other no matter what, but I rarely feel like it's shown. When we got the first POV of Adolin in Azir, I was shocked he hadn't even thought to himself "Maybe I should try to find Shallan and say goodbye!" Once in a while they'll stop to think "I sure love my spouse," but if they weren't married very little would actually change. Compare them to Kaladin and Syl, who are shown having pretty deep discussions and growing alongside each other. Adolin and Shallan don't really go through things together, which I find weird. Also weird was how much time was given in the book to talking about Shallan rejecting Kaladin (which she didn't do because he never even made a move or presented himself as an option). At this point, the proper amount of attention that should be given to that whole plot point is none. It's weird to have a little speech from Kaladin about how they wouldn't have worked, and it's weird to have Shallan thinking about Kaladin while watching her wedding. Maybe it's Brandon's clumsy way of trying to crush Shalladin once and for all, but it feels very out of place and honestly does the opposite. I know "show not tell" is trite, but this relationship needed more showing. Romance is never Brandon's strong suit, but compared to Vin and Elend, Dalinar and Navani, and even Siri and Susebron and Kaladin and Syl, this relationship feels incredibly underdeveloped.

It's just interesting to me that no one in Shinovar has them, but everyone in the other kingdoms appears to. It's probably just because there's been no genetic mixing for thousands of years, but I've learned not to take anything for granted. In her letter, Endowment noted that Hoid takes an interest in "worlds where legends abound of the dead being raised" (chp. 66). Other than keeping Odium bound, what else is he planning or seeking? I think you're right, but is there something we're supposed to take away from this interlude, or something that will be revisited? Axies the Collector has always been a fringe character seemingly unrelated to everything else, but there's gotta be a reason we keep seeing him. No you're right, she had no other choice and it was the best option at the time, but now that the Everstorm is covering everything and there's no Stormlight and no sunlight I wonder if she's already figured out she was tricked.

My theory is that he's Elodi, the singer Jezrien was shown to be friendly with in the visions.

Why does everyone except for Shin have epicanthic folds? What do the sleepless want? What does Hoid want? What is the moon that crashed to Roshar? Why does Odium’s perpendicularity appear underneath it? Who were the people hiding that Honor and Odium destroyed? Why are Natans blue? What are Aimians and why is Axies important? What’s happening to Baxil and why does it matter? Who was Gereh working for? How did the horse and flute get back to Kaladin? Who gave Kaladin the rock? How did Battar make Stormlight Hemalurgic spikes? Could they be used to nail a CS to the physical realm? What’s the deal with Nohadon? What’s the deal with the Iriali? What will happen to the Nightwatcher? Why did Taln want to kill Cultivation? Was Axindweth on Roshar pre-Catacendre? Will Jasnah have Elsecaller squires? Will Lift lose access to Lifelight since Cultivation is gone? How stupid does Fen feel right now? There are obviously lots of other unresolved things but these are my top questions.

I still (tentatively) ship Shalladin, so I HOPE it's not over, and I don't think Brandon would ignore all these issues we've discussed, but just in case the marriage lasts, I want to hope for the best. Remember the part when Shallan flashes everyone in Kholinar to make the shame spren appear and nobody understands what she's doing except Kaladin? It's the little things like that that made me think Kaladin would suit her better. His interactions with her show a level of understanding that I think is important for a relationship. I don't want to keep my hopes up, because how Oathbringer left Shallan and Adolin's relationship significantly bummed me out and almost ruined the end of the book for me. I'd rather not have any expectations for any relationship because I don't want any disappointment to cloud my enjoyment of the series. But man, I wish Shalladin was end game. Maybe if she was healthier and able to accept herself—all the parts of herself.

She doesn't have Shardplate yet. I believe OB said Skybreakers don't get theirs until level 4, so it might be similar for other orders. WoB is that each order gets their Shardblade at different levels, so it's likely that the same rule applies to Shardplate, but I would guess most Radiants get it earlier than the fifth ideal, at least. And since each order is different, we don't know how advanced she was when she killed her mom. It's possible that a Lightweaver can manifest a Shardblade after saying the first Words (though that's probably unlikely).

See, I don't mind if Adolin never has to explore any of the darkness in his life. I LIKE him basic. In a book full of really broken people, it's pretty refreshing to have someone who is just good. Even the worst thing he's ever done—killing Sadeas, which I think many of us thought was going to be a much bigger conflict in this book—wasn't even an issue. I like that Brandon has (so far) kept him a little bland, because it's allowed him to be the nice guy. The guy who guides Kaladin through Shadesmar. The guy who upholds his family's honor through duels. The guy who went to prison to support Kaladin. The guy who's there for Shallan even though she's not honest with him. It's because of Adolin's niceness that I like him as a character, and why I don't want him to be with Shallan. Shallan...is not a nice person. She feels guilty about teasing Adolin...but only because she sees him as too dim to get the joke. She judges Adolin for checking out a cute girl on their first date, then openly gawks at Kaladin in front of him. Plus, she so rarely considers how her actions might affect others. The one time she tried to do something nice, she got people killed! I understand how important it is for your partner/spouse to be a moral support and help you get through the tough times, and I believe Adolin can do that for Shallan (if she chooses to be honest with him), but I don't see her reciprocating. Say he does find out his dad killed his mom. Would she be there for him...or would she crack a joke, repress the memories, and slip off into the night to visit the Ghostbloods? Of course, she is likely going to get some serious character development (I hope), but I don't think this is a healthy way to start a marriage. You shouldn't go into marriage expecting everything to work itself out. She entered into a really serious commitment without really considering what it means, which I think is VERY unfair to Adolin. I wish Brandon hadn't "settled" the love triangle without allowing the characters to work out some of these issues, because I feel like we have a sham happy ending. Then again, now that she's committed to one person, maybe it will be easier for her to become less fractured. On another note, my husband is a major Shalladin shipper and he just started OB. He keeps getting really excited during all the Shalladin teases, and my heart is breaking on his behalf I feel like I should warn him not to get his hopes up, but I don't want to spoil the book for him.

I feel a little guilty about putting Adolin down, because in real life kind, considerate, friendly, supportive guys are the best. They just don't make the best protagonists. I mean, there's a reason Cedric Diggory wasn't the main character. And I don't WANT him to get more interesting by having some horrific thing happen to him. I'd rather him stay nice and good. However, that means getting Shallan away from him and giving Kaladin more screen time. Frankly, I don't want Shallan anywhere near either Adolin or Kaladin right now. She needs to deal with her own stuff and stop expecting things to magically get better. The more I think about this, the more angry I get at Shallan. Especially for thinking that getting married is the solution. Her fractured state is going to be even more of an issue as she tries to build a long-term, committed relationship.

I shipped Kaladin and Shallan after WoR, mostly because I find Kaladin more interersting and relatable than Adolin, so I thought a romance with him would make for a better story. That said, I also like Adolin and if he proved to be the better match, that would be great too. I just want my babies to be happy. Unfortunately, not only did this book not sell me on Shadolin, it made me upset about her character handling as a whole. In a series about very broken people, Shallan stands out as someone not even attempting to heal herself. She says "I admitted I killed my mom, so I can't push it back anymore," but then she does. And she continues to repress all her negative emotions, even after Wit's inspiring speech. Furthermore, the fractured personality issue is not resolved. She still sees herself as separate people, with "Shallan" as the weakest. She doesn't even know who she is, so how could Adolin? And then to wrap everything up with a fairy tale, happily-ever-after wedding...it felt weak, and I feel like her character is being shunted to the side. I really expected more. I know we have two more books in the "front five," but with Eshonai/Venli and Szeth being the main POV characters, I don't see Shallan getting the space she needs to actually deal with who she is and what she wants. It's much easier to play house with the pretty boy who says nice things than to change. And I think she does need to change. In the first two books I, like Kal, admired her ability to persevere despite the horrors of her past, but now it feels more than ever like she's covering up who she is to avoid dealing with it. It's easier to compartmentalize than to admit she's a killer, scholar, artist, flighty girl, child, leader, fighter, and woman all at once. I hope she'll get more character growth, especially as she says the next two ideals (but maybe she won't—the Skybreakers make it sound like you don't necessarily need the last two to function, and does she really need Shardplate?) I was hoping that she and Kaladin could help each other come to terms with their pasts and their responsibilities for the future, but it looks like that thread will not continue. I'm sad that maybe her marriage IS meant to be the resolution to her problems, but I thought she (and Adolin) deserved better. It's hard now that they're married though. If it does go south, spren don't look to kindly on oath-breaking. On the other hand, if Brandon does decide to explore her issues, maybe it will make her and Adolin stronger as a couple! Adolin is just so basic though. Sigh. [Edit: I feel bad ending it on that note. Kaladin isn't perfect either. In real life, the broodiness and doom and gloom attitude would get annoying. As a character in a fantasy epic, he is just so good. And smart and funny and very insightful and sensitive. As someone with depression, I like seeing a character who seriously struggles with it and never gives up. Adolin doesn't have that emotional draw for me. He's a good guy, but his defining character trait for this book was "fashionable," which I found quite disappointing.] [Now that I think about it, maybe Kaladin and Shallan's POV books came too early in the series. I don't really care about Szeth anymore, Eshonai's dead, and I don't think those K, S, or A got the development they deserved in this book.]

I am hoping, like I said, for a little more conflict resolution. I don’t want all of Shallan’s problems to go away because she got married. That’s a disservice to her character. One of the reasons I love Brandon is the way he develops characters, and this arc was just so bland. Instead of the awkward flirting and back rubs that added nothing to the story, tell me more about Jasnah’s childhood!! Since Shallan and Kaladin have some big Ideals to say, I am hopeful we’ll get some meatier development. If we do, I will rescind all complaints.

Oh yeah I was expecting a much bigger emotional payoff for the revelations of Sadeas and Helaran’s deaths. But I guess Dalinar has no right to criticize Adolin, and Shallan’s killed more of her own family members than anyone else. Brandon is not the best at romance, but with the WoR buildup I was expecting more. Romance, love, lust—these are aspects of human emotion that are important to humanity’s existence, so I would expect this book, more than others, to address it (plenty of time was spent on Dalinar pining for Navani). If romance isn’t important, why tease a love triangle at all? Adolin and Shallan get betrothed for political reasons, find out they actually like each other and he likes her even though she’s broken. That was the entire culmination of the plot, so why include the Kaladin stuff at all? The books are big enough...

“We’re willing to ignore that”? Thanks for speaking on behalf of the entire fandom. I already said I felt stupid for caring so much about it. I just thought we’d had a good setup that wasn’t resolved. But Brandon does like putting his weddings in the middle of/before the action. Also, human emotion is a pretty integral part of this story, wouldn’t you think? And obviously the healing and fighting together is actually what I would expect from the story, not categorizing cremlings. I was blissfully imagining a time where they could live without war, but they’re all going to die anyway so I guess it doesn’t matter who marries who. I know other people legitimately ship Syl and Kaladin. For me, I was picking up vibes in all the cuddly Shadesmar behavior and how he cut off when he said “I never loved her, she just reminded me of...” which I think could have meant Syl or Tien, but I interpreted it as Syl for the purposes of this comment. I actually get more angry the more I think about it. Shallan is this deeply broken character who is magically healed because a pretty boy likes her? She has a LONG way to go, and the ending was a bit too “Handsome man saves me from myself!” for me.

I feel really stupid for how upset I am about the resolution of the Kaladin/Adolin/Shallan love triangle. I thought it was going to be built up into this really juicy emotional conflict, and I definitely invested too much into it. So instead of being absolutely blown away by all the incredible things that made me start sobbing (Jasnah hugging Renarin! Szeth choosing Dalinar! Venli and Teft—oh and Lopen—becoming Radiant!) I’m just left feeling disappointed (in myself and in the book) and a little mad. I thought the initial flirtation between Shallan and Kaladin was exciting, and I couldn’t wait to see it progress into this book. But considering it’s a five-book series, I figured that either way Brandon went, he’d take his time and develop both relationships. But nope. Shallan is madly in love with Adolin because “he knows the real her,” which I thought was odd because she doesn’t even know herself, and I don’t think he knows her past, which I know she likes to cover up but is a HUGE aspect of who she has become. Maybe this will create drama in the next two books? Not that these books need more conflict, but a nice romantic plot line is a nice contrast to the good vs. evil, moral ambiguity, destruction of the entire world, main story. Oh, and he’s perfect and likes art and has nice arms. This is why 17 year olds don’t get married (To be fair, I DO like Adolin, I just personally don’t think he’s the most interesting character. And I don’t quite buy their relationship.) Of course, Kaladin and Shallan’s relationship didn’t exactly develop either. They insult each other and he wishes he could push down his emotions. I mean, I was imagining an arc where they worked together to fight their demons and support each other while fighting to save their species and they explored Roshar together since they’re both into natural history—but that would be dumb. She definitely belongs with the guy who can feed her newfound drinking habit. Oh, and Kaladin is in love with his spren, so that won’t get weird. Good thing she’s corporeal in Shadesmar! Other than that though, loved the book. Wish we’d had a bit more Jasnah, but I know that’s coming. I’m also excited for more Rock backstory. I’m glad no one I REALLY loved died in this one, but I was bummed about Elhokar. He was just trying his best, and he almost redeemed himself. Stupid Moash. Also stupid Taravangian. Like Dalinar, I can’t help but like him. Unlike Dalinar, I know exactly how dangerous he is. Speaking of Dalinar, realizing he’s the author of Oathbringer was one of the sweetest twists ever.

You're right, she has definitely proven her heroism. But due to the nature of her powers, they aren't as blatantly awe-inspiring as Kaladin's. Which I can chalk up to their society's (and our's) hero-worship of warriors. And Kaladin does get the best lines. I like Shallan because her path to heroism is a little more subtle than Kaladin's or Dalinar's. They both have these strict moral codes that they have to follow, which leads to them appearing more noble, but Shallan gets to be more morally flexible, due to the nature of her Nahel bond. She can lie and sneak around and be responsible for other's deaths and join secret societies and Pattern just gets more excited. So I can see how the ambiguity of her morality can turn some people off. But like you said, what she has done, especially considering her background, is absolutely miraculous. And some people in this thread mentioned that her fake happiness, her superficiality, were turn-offs, but I agree with Kaladin when he said that fact that she smiled anyway is the most beautiful thing he's ever seen. I can't even write about this without tearing up because of how much I love her and how much I desperately want the two of them to get together. I know the romance aspect is hardly important next to, you know, the destruction of the world and the cosmere, but after the chasm scene in WoR it's pretty much all I can think about for the rest of the book. Brandon writes some great romantic tension.

I don't know what's going on in Renarin's mind, but as to Jasnah's "brokenness" I think there's a clue in her reaction to killing the men in the alleyway. Shallan even thinks "What happened to this woman?" implying Jasnah may have been severely (physically or emotionally) injured by the type of men she killed. If that's the case, she's managed to grow from it and become a strong, self-assured woman (on the outside) but she also cuts herself off from feeling, and as her behavior towards the rapists suggests, she has not gotten over whatever happened to her. I can definitely see that. You're right; he is an intelligent fighter. He's all about strategy in his duels, and it pays off. And he was prepared to surrender during the disadvantaged duel (good thing he couldn't because then we wouldn't have gotten the "Honor is dead. But I'll see what I can do" line that made me cry while reading at work). As for known spren who don't seem to mind murder for a good cause, we have cryptics and inkspren. In terms of power, are you thinking Adolin might be an Edgedancer, with their "elegant, graceful deadliness"? And then obviously Dustbringers, which are also fighters and share a surge with Edgedancers. Yeah, he acts like he's seeing cryptics like Shallan did, and they might be drawn to his lies, but I don't think he has what it takes to face his truth like Shallan did. What is this and how do I read it. I personally think Dalinar vs. Adolin would be more compelling because Dalinar already knows that Elhokar is an idiot and I can't really see him being that big of a threat in the future. With the Everstorm coming and Odium raining down, Elhokar childishness feels like something that can be put on the back burner.

Right, we haven't gotten her satisfying "leap over the chasm to rescue an entire army" moment, and we haven't seen her rise victorious and lead her people, and we haven't seen her master the winds. In fact, at the ends of WoR she's more broken and lost than ever before. But she needs to be to progress. I know I'm coming into this two years too late, but I just joined this forum and I really wanted to talk about Shallan, so I chose here, rather than starting a new thread. I don't know if I have anything to add that hasn't already been said (especially by kaellok), so I'll echo that I like Shallan a lot. I like how strong she is. I like how broken she is. It's easy to compare the oh-so-noble Kaladin (who I also love and cry over all the time, don't get me wrong) with the sneaky, conniving Shallan, but you have to start by comparing their upbringings. Kaladin's childhood wasn't perfect, but he had a family who loved him and believed in him and taught him correct principles and tried to give him a better life. Shallan grew up in an extremely abusive household where her own mother tried to kill her, her father was a psychotic sadist, and her brothers were all varying degrees of useless. Everyone in the house likely hated her too, because Lin would hurt them when he was mad at Shallan. So there's that guilt, coupled with the guilt that perhaps her father acts the way he acts because of the pressure of covering up Shallan's actions. I think the fact that she managed to get through her childhood with any semblance of humanity at all is astounding. Yes, she's quicker to kill than some, yes she's superficial, yes she's a liar, but to me it's all this incredible defense mechanism she's built up because she can't let herself break. I find that amazing. She took this horrific life and turned it into something productive and useful. And she never gives up. I think that is one of my favorite qualities in a person. And she does honestly care about people. She would do anything for her family, even if it puts her own life at risk. She believes she's protecting the world by infiltrating the Ghostbloods and getting on to the Shattered Plains. I think she really does care about Adolin as well, because she sees he's a good person and he's kind. Is she selfless? Not at all. Most of what she does has ulterior motives, since she is a scholar and loves learning, but I think if she were the self-sacrificing Mother Teresa type she wouldn't be as interesting. Also, she's legitimately clever and witty. Which I love. But her quips are also a defense mechanism. Everything she does is to protect herself and her loved ones. And that shell cracked at the end of WoR. She doesn't get to hide anymore. And I'm both excited and terrified to see what that does to her character. So, I like her as a person because I believe she is inherently good, if scared and imperfect, and I like her as a character because she has a lot of room to grow. Also even if she and Kaladin don't end up together, I love love love the romantic tension between them and I thought it was SO skillfully done. I think they're good for each other too. She can teach him to be strong in the face of trauma and mental illness, and he can teach her to face her past and use it to become a better person. Hoid told her, “Keep cutting at those thorns, strong one, and make a path for the light.” If Hoid likes and believes in someone, that's good enough for me.

I'm reading WoR for the third time, and I feel really dumb for not figuring this out before. Do all people need to "break" before they become Surgebinders, to let the investiture manifest, just like they need to Snap on Scadrial? It makes total sense, but I've never thought about it that way before (I guess when Syl said "They were all broken" I took it more in the figurative sense. Silly me.) I personally think Adolin is more likely to become a KR than Elhokar, because I can't imagine Elhokar sticking to any oaths or thinking unselfishly. If Adolin gets chosen by an order because of what he did to Sadeas, I can see that order being totally at odds with Kaladin and Dalinar, since they would not likely approve of Adolin's method of justice. I think such division in the ranks would be a fantastic added challenge. They're all trying to work together to stop Odium, but they also have to deal with the fact that they have wildly different views of morality. As to what order he could be, I'm kind of leaning towards Stonewards, since he is prettt stubborn in general, and his actions could be seen as taking care of the dirty but necessary job that no one else would do. He's very upfront and forthright, and he's a soldier. He would belong to an order that takes action, rather than using sneakier methods or trying for diplomacy. (I think Dustbringers is another popular option but I don't know enough about them to say.)

I said the same thing to my husband, and he brought up a different perspective. He said that when I'm feeling really depressed or anxious, I can't *stop* myself from feeling that way. I can't just *stop* being said. It's not a perfect metaphor, because being depressed doesn't make me forsake all of my beliefs and murder people, but he can't stop from feeling that obeying orders to kill is the only thing he can do. He 100%, wholeheartedly believes that he is damned, he is beyond saving, and the only way to get a measure of peace after he dies is to keep following orders. So, to just stop would mean forsaking the only thing actually holding him together, and would mean that he is giving up his belief that everything he's done has been in service to his punishment and eventual peace. Like he said, if accepts that he has no real reason to kill, that would mean that everything he's done is his fault. The only thing that keeps him going (pre-end of WoR, of course) is the idea that something or someone else is responsible for his actions. He's already broken and pretty insane, so accepting the truth would not be healthy. To answer the original question, my least favorite Sanderson character is Tyn, from WoR, because she's the kind of obnoxious, condescending, superior person you meet in real life. The way she talks down to Shallan drives me crazy, especially because Shallan isn't some innocent, weak little nobody. She's going to freaking save the world. So yeah, Tyn and her "I know everything and I'm so experienced and you're so stupid" attitude drives me crazy. I hate Umbridge in Harry Potter, for kind of the same reason. She's not the "big bad," but she's the kind of bad you meet in real life. Just cruel, nasty people who enjoy belittling others and flaunting power. She makes me sick. Also, I'm trying to read Wheel of Time and I'm on book four and Egwene and Nynaeve and Morraine and Rand and Mat are all driving me crazy and it's hard to force myself to keep reading.

So voidspren turn the Listeners into Voidbringers, but are ordinary Parshendi bonding with original Adolnasium spren, Honor/Cultivation influence spren, or non-malignant Odium spren to achieve their "free-will" forms?

Okay you're right. I am beyond excited for Oathbringer. I'm just not a patient person (so being a Brandon fan is...good for me.)

The problem is that by dropping Mistborn: Secret History on us, we'll always have that tiny shred of hope that maybe, maybe he'll suddenly release a secret project he didn't mention before. So he says he'll only give us two new stories next year, but did he mean it?

I can definitely see this being the case. Under this theory, the Listeners didn't just want the power of the Surgebinders, they wanted to be elevated again to basic sentience. I would imagine that Odium promised them more, however, leading to stormform, smokeform, etc., which give the Listeners powers but also put them in Odium's control. Assuming this is true, ould the spren they bond with to create warform, workform, mateform, and nimbleform be of Odium, or did he somehow allow them to re-bond with the original spren? (And as you pointed out, there were spren on Roshar pre-Shards, so these likely gave the Listeners the basic forms.)

From what I understand, there were spren on Roshar prior to Honor and Cultivation arriving but then the spren kind of adapted and grew to be more like the Shards, gaining sentience (Syl says she is a god, a little tiny piece of one). So then the spren that bond with humans to create Surgebinders are probably of Honor and Cultivation (Syl is of Honor, Wyndle is of Cultivation, for example). I don't know if Brandon has said whether or not there were people on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation came. We know Ruin and Preservation created humans on Scadrial, so it's possible the same thing happened on Roshar. The spren might have chosen to bond with the humans and grant them powers because humans are the "sons of Honor." Cultivation may have created the bodies, and Honor the minds. I'm completely speculating here, but stick with me. What if, when Odium came to Roshar, he wanted to create life too, so he created the Parshendi? But "Odium" doesn't seem like a power that would be good for creating life. (This would explain why the Parshendi consider him their god, or at least the Unmade their gods.) The Listeners describe the parshmen as not having a spren, while the Parshendi bond with a spren to create workform, mateform, etc. Unlike humans who can think independently, Parshendi need a spren bond in order to have autonomy (possibly why the spren chose to make humans Surgebinders instead of Parshendi). So I think the spren they bond with to create the basic, free forms we see in the book are of Honor, giving the Parshendi free thought. That's why the Parshendi say "The betrayal of spren has brought us here. / They gave their Surges to human heirs, / But not to those who know them most dear." Parshendi cannot exist without some kind of spren bond. However, Odium has spren of his own. And they aren't nice honorspren or Cryptics. When they bond with the Parshendi, the Parshendi get incredible power, at the cost of their free will. Eshonai has no control over herself after accepting stormform. So some forms are "of the gods" (Odium) and therefore lead to enslavement, while the newer forms use different spren (Honor) and allow them to be free, if not as powerful. There might be details I'm ignoring that contradict my theories. I just think about the Stormlight Archives a lot and wanted to share my thoughts.