VirtuousTraveller

After several let downs - specifically in terms of editing and what I experienced as a bumpy, inconsistent increase of the cosmere lore crossovers in his books - I am glad to see Brandon, in my opinion, pulled off a comeback with his 5th secret project. Emberdark reads like classic Sanderson - insanely immersive worldbuilding, engaging magic systems, and a coherent theme and story arc accompanied by characters that likewise have great arcs of their own. Were there pockets of lore-dumping exposition? Yes. Were they distracting from the story? Not really. Is this a big deal? Absolutely it is, because unlike The Lost Metal, these moments didn’t feel like fan fiction. Seriously - this is a substantially better book in the way Brandon treated cosmere lore and crossover info (while to me The Lost Metal was the worst offender, this issue was present in The Sunlit Man and especially in Wind and Truth). I cannot stress just how grateful I am to have experienced the master executing his craft effectively again. C’mon, why am I criticizing some of those other books in a review about Emberdark? Because this book stands in stark contrast to those books: Awkward humor? Almost nonexistent. (“he he look he punched a person wasn’t that unexpected? hey laugh guys it’s my funny humor” was the only real hint of that “corrupted Wayne/Lift” voice, and I admit it’s even a stretch to compare this to that; it wasn’t here and it wasn’t missed). “Modern” language usage? None of that (save one “That sucks” oh wow blame the language translation technology throw away explanation, but that DIDN’T really break immersion at all, and I’d put money on Brandon smirking with the “see fans I said it was the translation thing notice I didn’t over do it throughout the book?” Yeah Brandon we noticed and APPRECIATED that!) What about vulgar language? We returned to form with nothing beyond “Shards…” which was much more in line with the classic Sanderson bibliography (save one brief moment of “you ol b*****d” Hoid, who Brandon seems Intent on being feather ruffly outside social conventions because he’s a loose cannon irreverent character). Forced representation of identity groups? Folks, Brandon managed to do a very effective story about cultural intersection that felt authentic, without a hint of preachiness. In fact, the “indigenous vs colonizer” dynamic felt pretty mature and was portrayed consistently from start to finish. What about the prose complaints from Wind and Truth? As one of the more vocal critics of this editing issue in his last book, this book is a great example for comparison. Emberdark felt polished - even the flashbacks that incorporated the short story. Nothing felt choppy or wordy or over the top or stilted and flat. It all flowed, and even the literary devices (like repeating the phrase “he didn’t answer, as it wasn’t a question”) didn’t come off as immersion-breaking gimmicky. This book was consistent and PROFESSIONALLY DELIVERED as a well-oiled story. Dusk has steelpushed his way into the top of the cosmosphere as one of my new favorite characters (easily one of Brandon’s best character arcs since Oathbringer in my opinion).

What a great observation @Aeshdan - and one I agree with pretty full-heartedly. I think a lot of it comes down to vocabulary, but even beyond words and syntax, the author's intent especially in WaT was "hey guys LOOK it's MENTAL HEALTH stuff DID YOU SEE." (I felt that same presence of the "author's intent" in The Lost Metal with all the cosmere crossover stuff - "hey guys LOOK it's a character FROM A DIFFERENT BOOK did you see") Even though I can hear someone saying "Szeth faced a lot of moral dilemmas in WaT," I would also argue that the lens through which we as the audience are supposed to be experiencing these dilemmas is rooted in mental health instead. The author's intent was we would experience the mental health stuff, and by golly that's what came across (cringing remembering the Book Quartermaster scene). Mental health and morality are obviously intertwined in real life, and they should be intertwined effectively in quality literature. Mental health adds rich context to moral dilemmas, but depth felt pretty shallow in the execution of WaT. I feel like that mixture felt more organic in the first three books of The Stormlight Archive.

My preference would be for a storyline involving a wounded warrior turned healer learning to help others to be written that way, not as a gimmicky "the Herald of Second Chances you've invented therapy the world's first therapist" experience. I don't disagree with most of the statements Kaladin says (and the idea of reframing and becoming aware of one's thoughts are concepts I frequently use when working with people) - in the book, they just read as a gimmick, written so the reader understands "HEY LOOK Kaladin is doing counseling DID YOU SEE IT" rather than something legitimate. For comparison, Kaladin's journey at the start of Rhythm of War learning to help people locked away in the sanitarium came across FAR more genuine and in line with Kaladin's previous story and characterization and the universe the story takes place in. I say that to say, I don't think it's impossible to include these kind of stories in fantasy worlds - it just can't break the immersion of the story. To me, Kaladin's efforts with Szeth, Nale, and Ishar broke the immersion. That doesn't discount the potential effectiveness of the strategies/vocabulary touched on in Kaladin's dialogue. Some of these moments were less poorly written than others, but in general I felt the tone of the book was consistently immersion-breaking for me.

That does line up with their exchange early in Wind and Truth: Granted, all this comes right before the "just you becoming your world's first therapist" line, which does support your statement. It just seems odd that Kaladin would have experienced some success with the men in his group in Rhythm of War using his own vocabulary and life experience, only for him to decide he has to start acting like Wit when he tries to help Szeth (and Nale, and Ishar).

I wouldn't say that's what I expected - Kaladin had already been set up as "being a surgeon for the mind" in RoW. But as much as I felt RoW was a step down in writing atmosphere/tone from the first three books of the series, none of Kaladin's RoW scenes felt as shallow as WaT. In fact, they felt more authentic to his character in both the vocabulary he used and the continuity of the story. Kaladin had to learn how to help other people without being on the battlefield. He found his calling in helping people in the sanitarium, because he related to the struggles they experienced. When Kaladin and his mother are talking about how he's trying to help the small group of men he pulled together, he uses language authentic to his experience: Kaladin also references his experiences as a slave in this conversation - something he knew about. He used the vocabulary of his life and experience - not a clinical non-existent textbook (though Lirin was able to find seven texts on sanity, though they were all pretty useless). Perhaps most powerfully in this chapter, this exchange happens: THIS is an authentic depiction of the voice and tone of Kaladin in the Stormlight Archive. It also depicts mental health in a way that feels realistic in the context of this story. It sounds nothing like: I didn't expect a textbook, but that kind of tone and vocabulary just don't ring true to Kaladin. Imagine something more like - "have you ever felt like your only purpose was to be used by those around you?" (that's very on the nose of Szeth's circumstances, but at least Kaladin could relate to this idea from his days as a bridgeman and darkeyes). "You are not a thing" could still be pulled as a lesson from this conversation, but the conversation would have been more "Kaladin" this way.

Oh I 1000% agree with you - that's why I want more of this! I think it would have made for an interesting Interlude in RoW or WaT to show church leadership and how they are responding to all the changes happening in the world. But I can't fault that as a writing "error" - just something I would prefer more of because I think Brandon has done a great job incorporating these interactions so well to this point.

Thanks for the refresher on this scene @Treamayne! It helps in providing another really interesting snippet of religious culture on Roshar, but it still leaves me wanting more!

I agree with this. Anything to do with Vorinism, the church, and the Hierocracy slowly drifted further and further away - and that’s a real shame because that’s the kind of world building I find so fascinating (and Brandon did such a great job introducing in earlier books). Then we get this line in one of the epitaphs: How can a person be excommunicated? Doesn’t that imply some kind of church authority? I thought the church lost that kind of authority after the war of loss. A tribunal? This implies some cool stuff, but doesn’t give us much to understand in context of Roshar’s worldbuilding/mythology

Even ruthless assassins (or divinely invested beings of near limitless power fueled by the big feelings of a dead god) need a hug.

I don’t think many of us will be quoting “No, I’m his therapist!” as our favorite line from Wind and Truth That said, I have a feeling it will be a line we’ll continue to quote as an example of lines that fell flat (flatlines if you will). A cheesy jibe, something that elicits an eye roll for the wrong reasons - that kind of stuff. I’m curious how many of these “flatlines” we can come up with from other books or media. The one that comes to my mind immediately is from Revenge of the Sith, in the epic lightsaber duel between Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi. It’s super cheesy dialogue, and it happens in the middle of one of the most epic lightsaber battles. One more Star Wars reference - from The Rise of Skywalker: Anyone have any other examples that come to mind like this?

I personally found the first two thirds of the book slow, because of the shifts. It really picks up in terms of plot the further you go, but you have to battle every pokémon gym leader first, and defeat all ten waves of the zombie herd before that happens I think the constant POV switching, which I previously never noticed in Sanderson books, really slowed every plot down. I’ve said it elsewhere, but I’ll say it again - the destination is mostly worth the journey to get there. You should definitely finish - just pace yourself and try not to rush it (though once you get to Day 9, you’ll probably find it hard to put down until it’s over!)

You know something, if the quality of the writing had been tighter, if there wouldn’t have been all the quips and (to me) attempts at humor, and if we didn’t have the word “therapist” involved, this story would have landed better. Getting to the end of the story and having Kaladin reflect on exactly your point - wow it isn’t a gimmick, it’s authentic human (lowercase c) connection that makes a difference - I think that would have been a more satisfying package. Your summary of this plot arc is one that would have hit me in the emotions too. While I clearly had difficulty reading it with the distractions I’ve laid out in this thread, I’ll remember how you distilled it when I eventually reread it. Intent and execution are different things, and I do think Brandon intended this to be more along the lines of how you experienced it.

Those moments were some of the best examples of humor in the book. When Kaladin kept throwing out the stories Hoid shared and playing his magical SYLUTE ::eyeroll:: I loved this comment: I felt that Kaladin's philosophical musings (separate from his therapy-speak) were somewhat childish and shallow as well in this book. When he, Szeth, and Nale are talking in Chapter 128, and Szeth makes the claim "Sometimes, a price must be paid for survival." Kaladin says NO. Szeth then continues: Kaladin responds: Everyone, everywhere has to make these kind of decisions? Everyone has to consider how to strategically fight against supernatural, god-fueled, literal immortal monsters that have continuously waged war and retreated and waged war and retreated for thousands of years? The argument continues: I would argue that by choosing not to take certain actions, it is possible to allow a greater evil or a worse fate to befall everyone impacted by our choices. Ishar (and by extension Nale and his leadership of the Skybreakers) seems to exemplify the utilitarian view of the classic trolley dilemma. The interesting twist in the Stormlight Archive on this dilemma is "but killing one person didn't actually save everyone else," with Ishar and Nale as the muses for this narrative. When Kaladin waxes poetic about "everyone facing these kind of decisions" and that the world would be misery if we all chose to sacrifice our happiness," it again feels like a childish oversimplification of what should be the deontological view of ethics. Similar to the psychological concepts and mental health we've discussed in this thread, I think some of the philosophical musings in this book were likewise a bit shallow and underdeveloped (a la Jasnah versus Taravangian).

I felt the same way, and only realized that this was likely what “unite them” was referring to after I’d finished the book and reflected on this. All of Dalinar’s ending felt like a pulled punch for me, because instead of dying for real, we see that “another has claimed him,” (at least the Dalinar we know), and Retribution poofs the Blackthorn into existence using ::handwave:: magic. So there was no “He lives” or “he dies” ending - it’s left open so no clear decisions had to be made regarding the ending of this character. That said, uniting the shards against Retribution was a great twist I didn’t see coming. The scene when they all suddenly turn their gaze upon him is one of the best scenes in the book, in my opinion. I don’t even mind this as the answer to “unite what?” It was a satisfying “different answer” to all the theory crafting about reforming Honor, or reforging Adonalsium.

With Cultivation leaving the system, but clearly leaving a ton of investiture on Roshar (and having touched Lift like she did Taravangian and Dalinar), I don’t know that we can say she’s a bad puppet master just yet. We’ve seen her plans with Dalinar and Taravangian play out, but not Lift, and she’s too similar in the personal boon to not still be a part of whatever plans were in the works.