Vapor she/her Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 2 hours ago, Ookla the Paradoxical said: Crasher looked down at the dead body in front of him. "Wow, you all really just stabbed him in the back, huh. I guess he never... Sal it Cómin." Welcome, Dannex! I'm gonna guess Dannex is safe because no elim would abandon the chance to play elim. My vote last time was defensive, because for a while there, it was looking like I might get lynched. I was worried someone would switch at last minute, so I wanted to be sure. Voting for someone else risked angering them and having them switch to me. So I band-wagoned so I'd have a vote in. Because as I always say, it's important to vote. Even I think the Vapor vote looked suspicious, and they defended me. People who come in at last minute and throw in important votes without long explanations seem suspicious. Which is why I am voting Experience for now. Their reasoning has been shallow so far. Let's look at why Vapour might have done cast their vote when and how they did. Maybe we're both elim and he was protecting me. If so, it was likely opportunist. Maybe they wanted to avoid being active without voting, so they just hopped on a bandwagon. If so, they chose not to railroad me or Elandera. Maybe they really thought Somebody was an elim. Maybe they trusted I am a villager and wanted to avoid my lynching. Maybe they're elim and wanted to pocket me. Vapor, would you like to commit to one of those options? I'm a she. I just thought Somebody's vote was suspicious. But why are you voting Experience? Even I realize that they are less suspicious than me right now.
dannnex male Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 Ok, so I’m not entirely sure what’s going on, but I do think it’s mildly weird that Connie keeps referring to herself in the third person... I get that it’s probably some sorta RP thing, but it’s still suspicious to me...
Condensation she/her Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 12 minutes ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said: Ok, so I’m not entirely sure what’s going on, but I do think it’s mildly weird that Connie keeps referring to herself in the third person... I get that it’s probably some sorta RP thing, but it’s still suspicious to me... I'm Fritz. Connie's created space for me and I'm pretty self-aware. Yeah, sorry. Something I do occasionally. Right now I've got Fritz, Amity, Candor, Dauntless, Erudite, and Abnegation.
Illwei Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ookla the Grammatical said: Amity, Candor, Dauntless, Erudite, and Abnegation. I'm sorry what
Condensation she/her Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 Just now, Ooklil' the Wei said: I'm sorry what They're the categories from Divergent. I have people who exemplify the categories.
Archer he/him Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 11 minutes ago, Vapor said: I'm a she. I just thought Somebody's vote was suspicious. But why are you voting Experience? Even I realize that they are less suspicious than me right now. My apologies. I'll work to get that right going forward. My read of the situation was that I was at 3 votes, Elandera was at 2, and Somebody was at 1. Condensation threatened a vote on either me or Elandera that never materialized. Let's suppose Elandera and you are elims. In this situation, you're fine to do nothing, although you'd keep tabs on the situation in case Condensation votes Elandera, which would tie us and give them a chance of being killed. But if that did happen, and you broke the tie, that would be suspicious. Suddenly, Illwei switched from Elandera to Somebody and said some very nice things about me (Thank you, by the way. You're cool too!). Araris switched from Experience to Somebody at the same time. Now I'm at 3, and Somebody is at 3 too. I've been under a cloud of suspicion, so there's little value in killing me when you can get a different villager. So you voted Somebody, pushing me out of elimination contention. That's a risky gambit, because if I flip elim, you'll be suspected later. Would a villager do that? Unlikely, isn't it, unless you were worried because they had poke voted you earlier in the round. But here's the rub. I don't think Elandera is an elim. I've already listed my reasons for that before. So it appears that this was more of a gut read that I'm villager and that Somebody was sus. Why would I want to penalize you for thinking I'm safe? Experience on the other hand has a habit of last minute voting that makes it hard to read votes until right near the end. I don't like that, even though I've been guilty of it myself, so I'm sticking with them for the time being. Also, I just now got the joke in the title.
Gears Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 Last cycle's posts Illwei: Confusion, Quinn died? Araris: Votes Experience because of their thoughts on Gears Elandera: Votes Illwei out of a misunderstanding Illwei: Misunderstanding! Elandera: Misunderstanding. Archer: Talking without voting is suspicious. Thought there were plots, not anymore. Pokes Windrunner Somebody: Disagrees. Illwei cleared. Votes Vapor for inactivity. Condensation: Vapor is alive. Illwei: Votes Somebody for clearing them and using proper grammar. [I understand this, but you have been noted.] Elandera: Illwei cleared? Votes Somebody for logical leaps. [As the second vote on the lynch, this is inherently more suspicious. The reasoning alone seems a bit odd. Noted] Condensation: Somebody usually has bad grammar. Illwei: Exactly. Elandera acting strange. Condensation: Grammar++; Illwei: And that's abnormal. Condensation: Correct. Somebody: Illwei mostly cleared since acting normal. [Strange, but in hindsight, alright]. Will get killed if don't vote. Grammar improves. Illwei: Okay. Argument based on E/E interaction. Votes Elandera. Elandera: Argument not dependent on that. Experience: Votes Araris in retaliation. Condensation: Is talking and not voting without getting voted on. Experience: True. Illwei: Voting only works to promote discussion. Condensation: Voting is discussion Experience: Last minute votes? Archer: Non voters suspicious. Uncontroversial people suspicious. [This is a good way to say things without talking.] Game Master: Don't use out of game things for the game. Condensation: Voting is -ish. Illwei: Not voting isn't necessarily AI. No information allows elims to hide votes. Condensation: Doesn't like voting Liranil: Votes Elandera for last round and attacking Illwei Illwei: Archer is bad at math Gears: Had a brilliant post, was foiled by the sands of time. Votes Elandera on a false premise. Illwei: Why? Vapor: RP Elandera: False premise. Gears: Alas, I am a fool. Condensation: RP Vapor: RP Experience: RP confusion Condensation: Okay. Joe: Votes Archer for promoting a wide spread. Seems like they're covering for Illwei Illwei: Doesn't like Illwei-Archer connections Silber: Exists TJ Shade: Votes Archer for avoiding responsibility Liranil: Suspicious of Joe for trying to get them to switch. Confused. Condensation: No reads. TJ Shade: Talk more. Archer: Vote count. Retaliatory voting is strange. Gears hasn't voted. [Speaking of, I didn't vote last cycle either, but I would like to say that rollover takes place during one of my classes where you actually have to pay attention to the teacher, and I completely lost track of this game. Maybe I shouldn't play QFs. They move too fast for me.] Analysis without votes is suspicious. [And then you don't vote, you hypocrite.] TJ Shade: Vote hopping = sus. Condensation: Ultimatum. Archer: Observations of the two options. Condensation: Okay. Archer: Doesn't suspect Elandera. Somebody: Votes Archer for vote hopping. Condensation: Lynch chains. Elandera: Careful, Icarus. Condensation: Aye aye, captain. Liranil: Shoot the dark. Elandera: Amenable. Illwei: Likes Archer. Doesn't want to "kill Archer even if they are an Elim" Game Master: Vote Count Illwei; Votes Somebody to protect Archer. [Illwei obviously began the counterlynch train to protect Archer. As such, my suspicion of Illwei has increased. A villager has less incentive to keep a player alive. An elim could be protecting a fellow elim or trying to pocket a villager. Since Archer expressed willingness to trust Illwei earlier, it could be either.] Araris: Votes Somebody because they don't like the Archer lynch [which is notable as well] and for Somebody's hasty Illwei clear. Illwei: "huh". Araris: Willing to lynch Experience. Illwei: Nah. Vapor: Votes Somebody for voting them. Illwei: Doesn't like the bandwagoning. Experience: Votes Vapor for bandwagoning. Archer: Votes Somebody for 'self-preservation', though they were safe by then. They might not have realised it though. Illwei started the counterlynch on Somebody. They seem to be trying to pocket Archer [or save them, depending on whether or not Archer's an elim]. Also, I don't understand exactly why they suspect Elandera. @Ooklil' the Wei, could you explain this? I do agree that Experience's votes have been a bit flimsy, but these are the early days, so all votes are a bit flimsy. 3
Illwei Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Gears said: could you explain this? I was uh...working on a big post about my thoughts...but I kinda got carried away...so uh...I am trying really hard. It's been 3 hours so far and I'm still on Archer. this is fine. I'll get something out. ...
Condensation she/her Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 ... Me over here alternately looking at Wonder Woman memes and RPing. Contributing to the thread, all right! So it seems like most of the votes on me were kind of bandwagoning? Not sure? But it seems like a lot of people are reading me as village, which is why it's confusing.
dannnex male Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Ookla the Grammatical said: So it seems like most of the votes on me were kind of bandwagoning? I’m...the only one to have voted for you?
Illwei Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 (edited) Okay I Definitely got a bit distracted while writing this, and...it most definitely will show :P. This is also going to be an episode on Illwei's Lazy ISOs where Illwei only quotes the quotes that they wanna quote. Elandera Spoiler ...Selective? ISO for Elandera Spoiler Quote I find it odd that Quinn read Illwei as village after two posts barely a few minutes into the cycle. I suspect possible pocketing. Araris Quinn. I'm unfamiliar with the new players since I've been gone for a while, but that seems awfully quick to declare a village read. Four and half-ish hours until the end of cycle, and no clear lead in the lynch. I suspect the typical last-minute vote swing to someone will occur, so for now, here are the votes. Quinn0928 (2): Ooklil' the Wei, Elandera A Joe in the Bush (1): Ookla the Araris Valerian Ooklil' the Wei (2): Quinn0928, TJ Shade Gears (1): Ookla the Paradoxical Liranil (1): A Joe in the Bush Elandera (1): Liranil Votes Quinn for immediately reading me village and suspects them of trying to pocket me. Posts unprompted VC, which is slightly suspicious to me, because they put someone in the lead. It’s not like they were worried about someone dying and wanted people to see it. Maybe I should find that less suspicious then?? ________________________________________________________________________________ Quote Oh, it hurts. There are stories in the ancient scripts of SE that some older players were revealed as elim for a few cycles, but still managed to talk their way into surviving and winning. If someone can claim elim and be elim, people are more likely to dismiss it out of hand and not even look into them, which then allows them to work in the open and fall back on the "joke" of claiming if anyone is ever suspicious. It's Gear's established way of playing, but there is some worth to maintaining a suspicion of that activity. Backs up Experience and Archer in their suspicion of Gears. ________________________________________________________________________________ Quote I am, apparently bad at math. Maybe that's my Epic weakness (I know it's my actual one). I thought we had another hour in the turn. Not that I would likely have changed my vote. Might as well get started, though. [Archer] what was the reasoning for not wanting to double up votes on anyone? I understand the stance on Gears' claims, hence why I chose not to vote on him. It's mostly trollish, but I also don't see it as super helpful which is why I didn't think Experience's vote was outlandish. It's just as good as any C1 vote reasoning, really. Inactivity is going to be a huge problem for us regarding lylo, since I don't believe we have enough pinch-hitters to fill all four who are on the chopping block. [Illwei], please don't go inactive for this (unless you're elim). Granted, just the suggestion that you had considered it puts me on edge. It suggests you're village (elims tend to have more reason to be active because they have a team that may depend on them), but mentioning it seems like setting up to just appear more village. Overall, it makes me suspicious. For that, Illwei. Votes on me for misinterpreting my post, Which I'm doubly wary of, since people like to make me sound more confusing than I already am to ML me :P. Paranoid that Elandera was hoping I'd be an easy ML there. Explains away any suspicion Archer might have on them for staying on Quinn (doubling votes C1), despite also asking why Archer wanted that. Tries to get a ML on me (potentially other people joining on because I started the Quinn vote) ________________________________________________________________________________ Quote Wait. I don't see how Illwei is cleared. I assume you are talking about Archer's statement that he had thought Illwei/Quinn/Experience were involved in a scheme somehow. However, just because that particular scenario didn't appear to be true doesn't mean that Illwei is cleared. It just means they weren't working with Quinn. That's a pretty large leap in logic to make, like you're anxious to try to make teammate!Illwei appear less suspicious. Somebody from Sel. On top of that, why are you two, [Archer] and Somebody voting for someone who will be removed/replaced? If they're going to die to the filter, let them die naturally. If they're going to be replaced, give the pinch-hitters a chance to actually say something. (Archer's I understand more, as it was stated as a poke/placeholder, but still.) Again, tries to keep suspicion on me Votes on Sel with logic that requires me to be an Elim. Setting up a potential ML? ________________________________________________________________________________ Elandera kept a vote on Quinn, and was the only person to. I already had said I wasn't moving. Easy way to save herself, but also wary of there being Elims in the pool if Elim!Elandera. She never explicitly said that she was keeping her vote there to not die, and Elandera hasn't self-pres voted in the other games I've been in with her iirc. I think Archer's points are valid for thinking an Elim wouldn't want to be a deciding vote/keep a vote on someone, but IMO they would if they had maybe one teammate, maybe two, definitely if all three were, as that's a big change of hitting an Elim. In addition, Elandera isn't a new player- She's a veteran who is most likely aware of easy elim tells, and more likely to avoid them than newer players. Then there's this: Quote that's a pretty large leap in logic to make, like you're anxious to try to make teammate!Illwei appear less suspicious. She says this in voting on SfS, after SfS votes on Vapor, saying that both SfS voted on an Inactive, and that SfS was trying to make me, as their teammate, seem suspicious. I know that Elandera's other half of the vote was voting on an Inactive, but Archer also did both of these things. She pointed out the fact that Archer voted on an Inactive, but not that it was Archer's Idea to clear me, not Somebody's. What's the difference? Well, Archer has a pretty strong village read on Elandera, and Somebody didn't and was an Easy target- especially because I had just voted on them. (which...I had just voted on them and the reasoning made no sense.) I guess it could make more sense later, when I retract my vote on Somebody... Archer Spoiler Archer ISO (though Slightly useless, I know :P.) Spoiler Quote You sound so disappointed about that. I haven't read enough old games to tell if Illwei and Quinn are being honest about their analysis of each other's behavior. What I have gleaned however is that Gears genuinely does claim elim every time. Even so, at this point, speculation that they might be double-bluffing is better than random guessing. (Also, I'm hoping that given your strategy, Gears, you'll be less vindictive than anyone else will be if I vote for them. *puppy dog eyes*) I believe that to win, we must vote each time and get lucky. Our odds are better than not that on third vote we will get a Reckoner. (First guess has 1/5 chance, second guess has 2/5 chance, third has 3/5 chance, which is better than half.) We can improve those odds through reasoned analysis. We also need everyone to vote, in order to provide some basis for that. I'm going to treat any speculation people make without voting as suspicious. The best Reckoner strategy would be to fly under the radar and let everyone pick each other off. Assuming the first vote is a cremshoot, they'll probably be able to avoid elimination for one or two more lynches by having a clean (non-existent or band wagony) voting record. The more we force people to defend themselves and take positions on lynches, the more we have to work off of. Eventually we'll accuse a Reckoner and we can judge people's reactions to that and crack this case wide open. So to promote this, from here on in I will at least be poke voting anyone who doesn't vote. If I think we've got the right choice for a lynch, I might switch, but that's my strategy for now. And wouldn't you know it, Gears hasn't voted yet, so my choice this round is doubly validated. (Sorry again.) Putting out theories, just trying to share ideas. Laying the base to explain future behavior so it doesn’t come off as suspicious. Reads more Village then not, mostly because the theory is wrong, and he put a lot behind this theory that wasn’t right. _______________________________________________________________________________ Quote I wasn't going to mention this until next time because it was looking like it would end in a bunch of people having one vote on them and the lynch being decided randomly, which is what I view as probably the best case scenario with so little information. It looks like Quinn and Illwei have a scheme going where they accuse each other to deflect criticism from real Epics then they drop their votes last minute, leaving someone, in this case Gears, on the chopping block instead. Experience's timing is suspiciously convenient for that kind of a plan to work. As it stands, Quinn and Gears have two votes each. I expect Illwei to drop their vote on Quinn shortly, so to even the field Sharing a theory to try and get people to not be fooled by the plan; explain away whatever suspicious thing he might do later. Again, more village then not- Same reason as above. ________________________________________________________________________________ Quote I feel that if you are going to talk, you should vote. Otherwise you’re avoiding taking responsibility for your words. My initial vote on Gears was pretty arbitrary. They remain on my suspect list for now, but they did not do anything overtly suspicious. Besides overtly claiming to be an elim. Hm. Anyway, I switched that to Experience when they entered the thread with under an hour to go and cast the deciding vote against Gears. (Or what I thought was, based on my assumption of the plan.) For the first round, I believed a random lynch would be the fairest way to go. So far I have maybe two people who I am more inclined than not to trust while everyone else seems suspicious. That’s not enough to go on, so our best bet was getting lucky. Judging talk is not a good way to decide things, at least not early on. This time, we have the opportunity to evaluate who people actually voted for. That’s about the only real way to judge people’s loyalties. Speaking of which, it turns out Quinn was innocent after all, which is unfortunate. I really thought Quinn/Illwei/Experience were covering for each other after blowing a scheme to establish a record of voting for the Reckoners early when it was unlikely to kill them. I believe that Illwei is now cleared because they did not go along with the plan and no Reckoner would allow themselves to cast the deciding vote at this stage in the game. It invites early suspicion. Experience ultimately tried to protect Quinn, who is innocent, with their vote, so I also somewhat trust them. Although their timing remains suspicious. My final vote on Somebody was a random selection from the group of four or so people who have been inactive. I suspect that every Reckoner will be active enough to avoid the filter, because it’s a rare opportunity to have lots of power in a game. However, at least one of them may lie low to avoid having a questionable voting record. I’d like to discourage that. If it served as a poke vote to make them talk more, great. If it just added weight to my words, that works too. Either way, there was no way I could not vote for someone in that round. So it had to be someone who didn’t already have a vote on them. Sticking with that, I’ll poke Windrunner Supreme for now as a filler vote. I need time to figure out who is actually most suspicious. I'm still high on adrenaline. Experience voted for me! I mean Again, backs up voting out people who haven’t voted. Tries to guide the village into talking about voting patterns, reinforced by the next post. Explains away their own voting, trying to alleviate any suspicion. Votes on Windrunner to prompt activity. I didn't see Experience try to save Quinn, but if he did I don't see that as AI of village, but of Elim- because of TMI. __________________________________________________________________________ Quote Here’s a breakdown of how the voting happened in Day One. Illwei and Elandera are responsible for the villager death. However, as explained in my previous post, I believe Illwei is clear because Quinn was not a Reckoner. If they had been one, I would have suspected a scheme to fix their accidentally both being on the chopping block. I do not believe that a Reckoner would want to be caught casting the deciding vote this early in the game. There was no information to go on, so it would have been suspicious to hop on someone. For that reason, I believe Elandera is cleared as well. I may have to revisit that decision later though. It might have just been a misplay, but I will assume for now the Reckoners are cleverer than to call attention to themselves on Day One. Experience causing drama right at the end also makes them less suspicious to me for the same reason. Everyone who didn’t vote is suspicious. That includes the four people who got warned, but also Gears interestingly. They didn’t defensively vote even when they had two votes against them. I’m not sure how to read that. Condensation is another talker who didn’t vote. Araris, Elandera, Joe, TJ Shade, Liranil all acted pretty uncontroversial, which is the most suspicious to me because that’s how I’d play it if I were elim. I’d guess that two of them are elims and the other is one of the people who got didn’t vote. Out of the five, Liranil seems the most trustworthy and TJ Shade strikes me as the most likely elim contender. Moves suspicion away from all voting peoples and onto the inactives. Backs up his Windrunner vote (for a third time) specifically onto the named people. (note, TJ as the most suspicious) ________________________________________________________________________________ Quote So far, Araris voted for Experience Elandera voted for Illwei then removed it Archer voted for Windrunner Supreme Somebody voted for Vapor Illwei voted for Somebody Elandera voted for Somebody Illwei voted for Elandera (forgot to remove previous vote) Experience voted for Araris Liranil voted for Elandera Gears voted for Elandera then removed it Joe voted for Archer TJ voted for Archer Vote tallies: Experience 1, Windrunner 1, Vapor 1, Somebody 1, Araris 1, Elandera 2, Archer 2 It appears that my poke vote on Windrunner has accomplished nothing. The filter is going to replace them at the end of this round and we’ll have to begin our read of them all over again. That’s unfortunate, but at this point my vote would be better suited elsewhere. I’ll admit I’m tempted to vote Elandera to save myself from elimination, but I’d like to be able to justify that and I’m not sure I can. As I said before, they voted out a villager in the first round, which is too bold for a Reckoner. I’m ignoring discussion of people’s previous behaviours because I can’t personally verify it. Three of you are lying elims, so there’s bound to be some misinformation out there. Removes vote on Supreme because prompting activity didn’t work (though that was expected by me) Discourages voting out people who will be replaced. Gives another voting list thingamabob (though not as nice looking as the last one :P) ________________________________________________________________________________ Quote I'm ignoring gut reads and AIs this game. There's no good way for me to do them because I don't know y'all or the game well enough yet and three of you are likely spreading misinformation. I absolutely believe that votes are the best way to determine roles. But sure, maybe I'm tunneling on the plan. Let's imagine the different scenarios. If Illwei was innocent and Elan was a Reckoner, Elan cast the deciding vote for an innocent person. That puts the heat on them, which is why they’re on the chopping block. That doesn’t sit right with me. That said, maybe they were counting on the Gears lynch happening instead and they wouldn’t be questioned. If Illwei is a Reckoner, and Elan is an Epic, they got lucky. If they’re both in on it, maybe it was planned from the beginning. Rereading Elan's defense, they said "Illwei was in the lead at the time I placed the vote on Quinn. She then removed her own vote of Illwei, putting herself in the lead and removing the tie I created." Perhaps they never intended to cause a lynch they were connected to and Quinn just messed them up. The more I look at this, the more it might have been a misplay. But I'm still not entirely convinced. In conclusion, I don't really have a lead Tries to take a step back and look at different options, (doesn’t...really...work…). Tries to explain not having a lead (despite having TJ in the lead earlier?) _______________________________________________________________________________ Quote I'm a villager and voting me means you have one less teammate, if you're a villager. *pew pew finger guns* This dichotomy diverts suspicion from you Condensation, and for that reason I'm suspicious of it. Or it could be we are both elim and you're trying to avoid suspicion for saving me by doing it like this. But if people remain unconvinced by my answers so far, here's the brief version. It appears that what makes Elandera suspicious is they voted for Quinn, then in Day Two, quickly voted for Illwei, who Quinn trusted. What makes me suspicious is best articulated by TJ: "Third, and most important thing that makes me suspect you - First, you voted for Gears, a player easy to vote on, and easy to defend against in the event they get lynched and flip village, then as soon as someone votes on Gears making them tied lead, you shift to Experience. Then as soon as Araris votes on Experience making him tied lead, you shift again to SfS. Seems like you're very worried of how you'll look if you're involved in voting out the person who'll possibly get lynched and flip village." As he said, I had a good excuse for voting Gears (he claimed elim). I switched and caused a village lynch anyway. If I am elim, why would I care which villager died if I am going to be blamed for both? I was the first vote on them, it was unsuspicious. Experience came late to the party and set Gears up to possibly die. I was okay if a truly random death happened because there was surely some one vote elims in the mix and we might get lucky, but trying to push a particular death early in the game didn't seem right to me, especially since Experience didn't really engage with any arguments and analysis but the most recent ones at the time. Attempt to get suspicion off of him by putting suspicion on himself. (something I personally wouldn’t do as an Elim, except for the fact that he was in the lead here) so not really AI to me. ____________________________________________________________________________ Quote My vote last time was defensive, because for a while there, it was looking like I might get lynched. I was worried someone would switch at last minute, so I wanted to be sure. Voting for someone else risked angering them and having them switch to me. So I band-wagoned so I'd have a vote in. Because as I always say, it's important to vote. Even I think the Vapor vote looked suspicious, and they defended me. People who come in at last minute and throw in important votes without long explanations seem suspicious. Which is why I am voting Experience for now. Their reasoning has been shallow so far. Let's look at why Vapour might have done cast their vote when and how they did. Maybe we're both elim and he was protecting me. If so, it was likely opportunist. Maybe they wanted to avoid being active without voting, so they just hopped on a bandwagon. If so, they chose not to railroad me or Elandera. Maybe they really thought Somebody was an elim. Maybe they trusted I am a villager and wanted to avoid my lynching. Maybe they're elim and wanted to pocket me. Vapor, would you like to commit to one of those options? Places suspicion on Vapor, votes experience? Another place, like with TJ, where he notes a top suspicion, and then promptly doesn't vote on them. _______________________________________________________________________________ Quote My apologies. I'll work to get that right going forward. My read of the situation was that I was at 3 votes, Elandera was at 2, and Somebody was at 1. Condensation threatened a vote on either me or Elandera that never materialized. Let's suppose Elandera and you are elims. In this situation, you're fine to do nothing, although you'd keep tabs on the situation in case Condensation votes Elandera, which would tie us and give them a chance of being killed. But if that did happen, and you broke the tie, that would be suspicious. Suddenly, Illwei switched from Elandera to Somebody and said some very nice things about me (Thank you, by the way. You're cool too!). Araris switched from Experience to Somebody at the same time. Now I'm at 3, and Somebody is at 3 too. I've been under a cloud of suspicion, so there's little value in killing me when you can get a different villager. So you voted Somebody, pushing me out of elimination contention. That's a risky gambit, because if I flip elim, you'll be suspected later. Would a villager do that? Unlikely, isn't it, unless you were worried because they had poke voted you earlier in the round. But here's the rub. I don't think Elandera is an elim. I've already listed my reasons for that before. So it appears that this was more of a gut read that I'm villager and that Somebody was sus. Why would I want to penalize you for thinking I'm safe? Experience on the other hand has a habit of last minute voting that makes it hard to read votes until right near the end. I don't like that, even though I've been guilty of it myself, so I'm sticking with them for the time being. I’m running out of things to say that aren’t repetitive haha. Staying on Experience despite everything he says, saying he wants to vote Vapor. like I said before. If you're doing something that you find suspicious, I would say to reconsider what you find suspicious. (though...I do the same thing with my top three suspicious activities :P.) Archer has said quite a few contradicting things. I was slightly wary of joe for pointing it out, because I didn't see it, but in my iso I've seen it too. Spoiler Quote "You sound so disappointed about that. I haven't read enough old games to tell if Illwei and Quinn are being honest about their analysis of each other's behavior. What I have gleaned however is that Gears genuinely does claim elim every time. Even so, at this point, speculation that they might be double-bluffing is better than random guessing. (Also, I'm hoping that given your strategy, Gears, you'll be less vindictive than anyone else will be if I vote for them. *puppy dog eyes*) I believe that to win, we must vote each time and get lucky. Our odds are better than not that on third vote we will get a Reckoner. (First guess has 1/5 chance, second guess has 2/5 chance, third has 3/5 chance, which is better than half.) We can improve those odds through reasoned analysis. We also need everyone to vote, in order to provide some basis for that. I'm going to treat any speculation people make without voting as suspicious. The best Reckoner strategy would be to fly under the radar and let everyone pick each other off. Assuming the first vote is a cremshoot, they'll probably be able to avoid elimination for one or two more lynches by having a clean (non-existent or band wagony) voting record. The more we force people to defend themselves and take positions on lynches, the more we have to work off of. Eventually we'll accuse a Reckoner and we can judge people's reactions to that and crack this case wide open. So to promote this, from here on in I will at least be poke voting anyone who doesn't vote. If I think we've got the right choice for a lynch, I might switch, but that's my strategy for now. And wouldn't you know it, Gears hasn't voted yet, so my choice this round is doubly validated. (Sorry again.)" Archer expresses his suspicion that Quinn and I have some sort of Elaborate scheme. I didn't notice this before, but reading over it makes his actions end of C1 a bit more justified, seeing as it wasn't a last minute thought. He also votes gears for not voting. He explains that it's just a poke vote- taking away guilt if for some reason gears dies and flips elim, or suspicion if he retracts his vote later. Expresses his suspicion of an Illwei-Quinn team/Scheme, laying foundation for him switching votes later. does that make it less suspicious? ...not sure. He basically advocates for random voting, which makes sense somewhat in cycle one. yes, it's pretty hard to find someone based just off of how they speak, but it's better than some things. My main problem with Archer in C1 is his desire for basically complete RNG. if he thought that I was going to retract my vote on Quinn, putting Gears in the lead, then a better option would be to actually vote on someone that they wanted to kill. (The thing about this? Someone he wanted to kill? was Gears.) I agree with Archer that votes are important, and it's important that if people are going to accuse someone of being an Elim (not just mild Elim/ Null Elim) then they should be willing to vote on them. What I don't agree with Archer on is that these votes shouldn't have meaning. sure- voting and creating a tie makes it so that the elims couldn't theoretically hide by voting on someone, knowing that they wouldn't die, it also leaves it open for Elim manipulation, and it also...doesn't work well with his next point. Quote "That’s not enough to go on, so our best bet was getting lucky. Judging talk is not a good way to decide things, at least not early on. This time, we have the opportunity to evaluate who people actually voted for. That’s about the only real way to judge people’s loyalties" When you leave everything up to RNG, it basically eliminates the ability to judge people based on who they voted. Especially when you encourage everyone to pick a different target, especially if one person doesn't move off. you can't say that they did it on purpose completely, because that's how the game is supposed to be played, and you can't fault someone for not following your specific plan. You can't judge based off of who voted on who, because if everyone picks a different target there's little reason for the Elims to not vote, since there's a less likely chance their target is going to die, and even if they do die, there's little reason to believe that they're an Elim for it, because it's all poke votes/little reasoning/RNG. Archer preflipped both me an Quinn C1...but...I'm not so sure that it qualifies...as...he flipped us as Elim, and that doesn't make much sense for a good Elim Strat, knowing that we're actually village. C2 Archer says that he got ...some sort of rush? haha not sure how to put it...from XP voting on him. This feels definitely like something that an Elim would do, except...for...How obviously loud he's being...which wouldn't make sense. He seems like he's trying hard to be town leader or whatnot, which...isn't exactly AI, but...you know.... Quote It appears that my poke vote on Windrunner has accomplished nothing. The filter is going to replace them at the end of this round and we’ll have to begin our read of them all over again. That’s unfortunate, but at this point my vote would be better suited elsewhere. I’ll admit I’m tempted to vote Elandera to save myself from elimination, but I’d like to be able to justify that and I’m not sure I can. As I said before, they voted out a villager in the first round, which is too bold for a Reckoner. My thing is, the poke vote, I don't belive, would do anything to begin with. when he placed it he said Quote Sticking with that, I’ll poke Windrunner Supreme for now as a filler vote. I need time to figure out who is actually most suspicious. I'm still high on adrenaline. Experience voted for me! Which, Imo doesn't really put pressure on anyone, seeing as they know it's not going to stick. The only way to have weight behind votes is to convince the target, however you do it, that they're actually in danger. This is why I hate explicitly stated Poke votes, as they accomplish nothing. Archer points out how he doesn't want to vote Elandera without reasoning, even to save himself, even though he ends up voting sfs as self pres. This I think can be explained away by him having a pretty strong village read on elandera, but still. Connie Spoiler I'm not...going to do an ISO on Connie basically at all. Because she hasn't really said anything. She hasn't given any reads, She hasn't voted. The only thing I can see that she did do is agree with me that SfS was acting different....aaaaaand then not vote on them at all. She doesn't express suspicion, and she doesn't defend them. While I can blame the LG for some, but she hasn't posted nearly as much as she normally does. She doesn't ask for reasoning about other people's votes when they're not on her (something I thought I remembered her doing from previous games) and she hasn't directly accused nor defended anyone but herself. After SfS poked Vapor for inactivity- Instead of connie joining them to put pressure, just tags them. Makes sense, since Sfs didn't, but still. I know Connie is against voting, but at least she did it in the earlier games. there's nothing now. When I she agreed with me that SfS was acting different, she didn't join me in voting, but also didn't defend SfS. Quote Yeah, I dislike voting but I guess I should start doing it since I'm not as new this QF. Which doesn't make much sense to me, given their history. In their three previous games they have given poke votes and real votes as early as D1. If they're not voting, their reasoning should be anything but what they say here, which is implying that they used to not vote because they're new, which isn't true. Quote I have no reads! If I made a reads chart, it would go from null to null village. Honestly, I'm bad at reads. And I think this might have to be my last QF until I'm better at them, since they're apparently so important. Connie says they have no reads, and basically only village reads if they had to choose. Inexperienced Elims might have no/few Elim reads, since they have TMI that everyone else is village, and don't want to be associated with a village flip. Basically my thoughts are: Because there mostly Ties, II want to assume that most votes were e/v or v/v (voter/target), because I think there would be a lot more grouped votes if there were more elims up. (Of course, I'm usually wrong about this :P) Somebody, Liranil, Illwei, XP, Elandera, Archer, Quinn. those were the vote-ees, And Elandera was the only person to be on someone that someone else wasn't. If Elandera flips village, then it implies more to me that Liranil, XP, Gears, Joe, and Archer are Village, Leaving Araris, Danex, Vapor, TJ, and Connie. for my top suspects. if Elandera Flips elim then it shows us nothing more than her having a self pres vote, but I mean, we hit an Elim. (Yeah Yeah, Info kills not great when they're not on D1 and all that yeah yeah yeah.) Well those are basically all the people I have opinions on right now, and the best explaination I can give for Elandera right now. Why this took me so long, I don't know. Anyways- yeah. Edited December 9, 2020 by Ooklil' the Wei I left in like 20 blank lines there for formatting reasons while editing :P.
Gears Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 @Ooklil' the Wei, I'm not quoting your post because I'm more responding to everything and that would be a bit long and annoying. Your points concerning Elandera are good, and I can see why you voted on them. However, my reasons for voting you persist. You defended Archer, saying that you wished to keep them alive "even if they are an Elim", and now that I pointed that out, you seem to be distancing yourself from them. Before, you were saying that you wanted to keep Archer alive no matter what. illweiSuspicion++; I would be amenable to an Elandera lynch, if the tie persists and no Illwei lynch traction spontaneously generates in the few hours we have left. Illwei, please provide reasoning for your defense of Archer and subsequent reversal of that opinion.
Elandera she/her Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 I've gotten some more sleep and my brain feels intact again. Mostly. 8 hours ago, Ooklil' the Wei said: Elandera kept a vote on Quinn, and was the only person to. I already had said I wasn't moving. Easy way to save herself, but also wary of there being Elims in the pool if Elim!Elandera. She never explicitly said that she was keeping her vote there to not die, and Elandera hasn't self-pres voted in the other games I've been in with her iirc. Someone needs to die C1 and I was legitimately suspicious of Quinn, as far as C1 suspicions go. They had stated they believed you were village awfully early with a confidence I have come to never expect from villagers so early, then voted on you anyways. At the time, it seemed like it may have been a slip and attempted cover-up in the case where you and Quinn were elim teammates. I know now that was incorrect, but that only cleared her through her death (basically the only way to confirm village this game). What I don't get is the italics section. The only person to leave my vote on Quinn? Aside from you, of course? I'm pretty sure we were the only ones to ever place a vote on her. As for the bolded section... your first post from C2: Quote I was thinking of dropping and switching to an inactive I realize that in your post with the vote on Quinn, you'd said you were probably going to leave it there, but that vote was cast barely a few hours into the cycle. It was entirely plausible to believe that was going to change at some point, as Archer had suspected. 8 hours ago, Ooklil' the Wei said: Posts unprompted VC, which is slightly suspicious to me, because they put someone in the lead. I still don't understand why unprompted VCs is suspicious. Most of the time, I'm doing it because I want to know what my vote is doing before I cast a vote, or to simply know where the votes stand a few hours before the turn. I understand GMs are busy, so why must I ping them for a VC when I can make one myself? Until very, very recently, it wasn't seen as suspicious ever. Also, I didn't put someone in the lead. I put Quinn into a tie. She put herself into the lead by removing her vote on you. 8 hours ago, Ooklil' the Wei said: Votes on me for misinterpreting my post, Which I'm doubly wary of, since people like to make me sound more confusing than I already am to ML me :P. Paranoid that Elandera was hoping I'd be an easy ML there. Yes, the vote was a misunderstanding of what you'd said. An honest one that I found to be very disconcerting. When you clarified you were talking about votes, I immediately removed it. Also, from my standpoint, I'm not so certain it would be a mislynch. The fact you keep repeating that puts me more on edge. Overall, I remain suspicious of you, but it's all gut read. It could just be playstyle, which is why I haven't kept my vote on you. As for 9 hours ago, Ooklil' the Wei said: I know that Elandera's other half of the vote was voting on an Inactive, but Archer also did both of these things. She pointed out the fact that Archer voted on an Inactive, but not that it was Archer's Idea to clear me, not Somebody's. Huh. I totally missed the fact Archer had said you were cleared. I though SfS was referring to why I'd removed my vote. Now I feel terrible. I did a lot of skimming of the thread before, especially long posts. Until now. @Ookla the Paradoxical Quote I really thought Quinn/Illwei/Experience were covering for each other after blowing a scheme to establish a record of voting for the Reckoners early when it was unlikely to kill them. I believe that Illwei is now cleared because they did not go along with the plan and no Reckoner would allow themselves to cast the deciding vote at this stage in the game. It invites early suspicion. Since it's been pointed out to me that I missed this, I just have a few questions. First: What? If you believed Quinn/Illwei were teammates, how is Illwei cleared for not going "along with the plan" when a plan couldn't have been in place with village!Quinn? Also, Illwei never posted after I placed the second vote, so theirs was not the deciding vote. I don't know if they were around at the time, but the lack of "activity" could be a plausible excuse for "accidentally" lynching a villager.
|TJ| he/him Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 I believe Experience is village, and so is Elandera. I'm not so sure of Illwei. I think I asked earlier about her reaction to Quinn's retraction seeing as it incited nothing from her side. Since a villager voting on someone who retracted their vote as a sacrifice of some sort would put doubts about the villager in the voter's mind too, so I'm surprised Illwei stuck with Quinn till the end. I tried to wait till Araris voted to see if it would fuel or dampen my suspicion on him. As it stands, that shift from Experience to SfS looked odd and the insistence on voting for Experience appears odd as well. Voting of Gears is easy, but voting for someone who's voting for Gears is becoming easier as well.
Liranil she/her Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 Dang there's a lot here. Thanks @Gears for the recaps of what happened in each cycle, they're really helpful! Right now I'm most suspicious of Illwei, Elandera, and Archer. I'm kind of worried about how much Archer is defending Elandera (although if I'm reading that wrong, let me know), which makes me worry that they're both elims, but I'm also suspicious of Illwei for starting the switch to Somebody and for jumping on Elandera so quickly this turn. For right now, though, I'm going with Illwei, because I'm wondering if maybe Quinn was onto something when they accused Illwei in the first round.
Araris Valerian he/him Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 I apologize for my lack of posting this cycle. I should be active from now to cycle end. I don’t really have any village reads right now (maybe Connie?) but I find Experience suspicious, along with players that are skating along with minimal activity. I’m also thinking it might be worthwhile to lynch Archer, since there was pretty good vote participation last cycle, and getting a flip on Archer would be good. Not to mention I find it odd that nobody else is interested in an Archer lynch this cycle. One benefit to lynching a low active player is that if we are wrong, the elims are somewhat incentivized to douse those players. I don’t really have anything to say to TJ, except that I’m not used to the QF format, so my votes aren’t quite as well justified. I guess I’ll vote Archer. I’d be up for an Experience (maybe? Archer is voting here, which complicates things), Vapor, or Silber lynch as well.
Archer he/him Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 Alright, I’ve had some more time to go over what happened in Day Two. This analysis may repeat some things I’ve said earlier because I’m starting fresh. Araris has a thing for voting early then switching at last minute, and hasn’t been getting enough heat for it. They contributed to Somebody lynch. Experience voted for Araris initially, then switched to Vapor at last minute for reasons I understand, so they’re off the hook, but it was obvious at that point that the vote wouldn’t result in a lynch. Possible Experience-Vapour plan to create distance between them. But I think it was more of a genuine reaction to a suspicious act. That’s what they did at the end of Day One by voting for me too. Joe and TJ have consistently voted in the middle of the round and stayed with their vote. Last time they both started a bandwagon on me. Somebody added to it, but they’re dead, so above suspicion. Plus, I suspect it was because I voted for them last round. I can’t see them both being Reckoners and so blatantly starting a lynch together, but maybe one of them is. They fit the profile of what I think a Reckoner would look like. Liranil was vote two on the Elandera wagon. They voted for them last time too. I give credit for their being consistent in their position. I feel a Reckoner would be more opportunist or subtle. Gears briefly put Elandera on the chopping block with a then-lead making third vote on them, but they promptly removed it. If a Gears-Elandera scheme was happening, it is unlikely Illwei is their third Reckoner because they switched votes later, making Gear’s move redundant if that was the play. Elandera for their part did not vote, possibly wary of the repercussions of causing another villager lynch. Elandera and Illwei co-killed Quinn. Elandera didn’t vote last time, which is suspicious, but I suspect they were scared by last time. Illwei did and started a successful counter-lynch, but it protected me, so I can’t really fault them for that, even if the target was innocent. I’m abandoning the ‘they’re clear because of a lack of D1 scheme’ theory and re-evaluating them as suspicious. The Vapor wagon is based on one of two assumptions. The first is they were trying to protect me from being lynched. That leads easily into we are both Reckoners, which is false. The second is they were trying to protect Elandera who might have been on the block with me and Somebody if Condensation had flipped their way. (Speaking of Condensation, I’d like to vote them, but I don’t have the credibility to start a lynch on them that would actually be threatening enough to make them start voting.) There’s the third option, they just really had it in for Somebody, but that seems unlikely to me. So here’s where I’m at. From most suspicious to least, my suspect list goes Vapour, for vote switching with weird reasoning, Illwei, for being twice involved in village kills, Condensation, for talking a lot without voting, Gears, for the same reason, then everyone else in equal measure. TJ is probably safe, even if they suspect me, although if they keep voting right after Joe I will suspect it’s doc collusion that’s just not very subtle, instead of too obvious to be suspicious. Unfortunately, my top two suspects have supported me, and I hate to vote for them. Sorry in advance, guys. ***** Re: Illwei post: What’s an ISO? And you’ve ultimately decided on Elandera so no need to answer to all your suspicions right this moment. Liranil went with the popular bandwagons, which ignores the valid criticisms of Vapor, so slightly suspicious, but not really. Next round I need to do a deep dive into your posts. Araris voted for me, so once again I am put into a tight spot if I want to survive the round. If you do switch to Vapor, Araris, I’ll join ya. Otherwise, I’ll have to defensively vote again, which isn't ideal. Vote Count: Illwei on Elandera Experience on Archer Archer on Experience Danex on Connie Gears on Illwei TJ on Araris Liranil on Illwei – 2nd Araris on Archer – 2nd 1
Illwei Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 18 minutes ago, Ookla the Paradoxical said: What’s an ISO Isolation, loooking at all of each persons's posts without everyone else's 1 hour ago, Liranil said: but I'm also suspicious of Illwei for starting the switch to Somebody and for jumping on Elandera so quickly this turn. hm.
Araris Valerian he/him Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 15 minutes ago, Ookla the Paradoxical said: Araris has a thing for voting early then switching at last minute I'm used to the LG format where I can vote early, switch after a day or so (or not switch), and then have plenty of time to continue doing analysis. I start with a gut vote and then try and do something better when I have more time. I didn't really have much gut to on on this cycle thougn. I'll switch from Archer to Vapor. I'm sort of uncomfortable voting alongside Experience, although I do want to know if last cycle was v/v or v/e. Still, there are 8 players left who haven't voted, so I'm happy to vote for Vapor now and see how things play out.
Elandera she/her Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 19 minutes ago, Ookla the Paradoxical said: Elandera didn’t vote last time, which is suspicious, but I suspect they were scared by last time. But I did vote. I never removed my vote from SfS. Also, I realized I haven't voted yet. I think because I keep coming back to them on a gut read, Illwei.
Archer he/him Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Elandera said: But I did vote. I never removed my vote from SfS. I'm sorry, I messed up my chart. You're entered twice, and that's what confused me. Gah. I think of all the suspicious people this round, in my mind, you're in the middle. Now that Araris has voted Vapor, I can also wave my mob stick at them. They really offered no defense whatsoever of their actions, and I find that suspicious. Updated Vote Count: Illwei on Elandera Experience on Archer Archer on Experience Danex on Connie Gears on Illwei TJ on Araris Liranil on Illwei – 2nd Araris on Archer – 2nd Elandera on Illwei - 3rd Araris on Vapor Archer on Vapor - 2nd
Condensation she/her Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 13 hours ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said: I’m...the only one to have voted for you? Aah! Sorry, wrong thread. I need to get my act together and finals are next week. I'm going to die, you guys.
Illwei Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 (edited) Well, My head hurts a lot today so I'm going to try and stay off (even thought yeah right like that's going to happen) but Anyways 1 hour ago, Elandera said: Also, I realized I haven't voted yet. I think because I keep coming back to them on a gut read, Illwei. Hm okay, so my thing here Is I don't know if Elim!Elandera would do something like this, knowing that I would flip village. of course, you have to start somewhere, and with Archer saying that he finds that thing village because why would an Elim do it, there's little reason not too. 6 hours ago, Gears said: please provide reasoning for your defense of Archer and subsequent reversal of that opinion. My Defense of Archer and reversal of that opinion? I think that Archer is trying to be helpful and solve the game, and in doing so is accidentally making himself look Village. If he's pocketed me (I guess irrelevant now that he also seems fine killing me) Then I guess good job for him, but I think he's suspicious in a Villager-y way. -- I don't want to Kill Vapor quite yet, and Archer voting on them contradicts what he's said earlier, no? I want to kill Elandera, and I'd be fine with Connie. Something I do think is Elim-suspicious of Archer is his blind spot where Connie is in regards to voting. Connie still hasn't voted, as I said before. EDIT: Quote but it protected me, so I can’t really fault them for that @Ookla the Paradoxical Why can't you fault me for that? EDIT EDIT: Well, Okay. Vapor. I know that I'm village, meaning it's always best for me to save myself above other, especially in a vanilla game and all that whatnot. No one's gotten on and Rollover is in about 10 minutes, so- @Straw I still don't think Vapor will flip Elim. Edited December 9, 2020 by Ooklil' the Wei
Straw he/him Posted December 9, 2020 Author Posted December 9, 2020 Name: Endless Wrath Powers: Increase in strength and durability when angered. Weakness: Unknown. Plan: Shoot lethally from a distance. Result: Success. - Name: Lord Silberfarben Powers: Unknown. Weakness: Unknown. Plan: Just launch a grenade at him and run. Result: Success. - Name: TJ Shade Powers: Unknown. Weakness: Unknown. Plan: Blow up the building he's staying in. Result: Success. - Illwei was on the run. She'd heard gunshots and explosions in the distance and decided to run for it. Unfortunately, she ran into a few of the surviving Epics. Since she'd come from where the Reckoners were, they thought that she must be a Reckoner as well. Illwei desperately tried to get them to go after someone else, but to no avail. - Mission Result: Overwhelming success. Four Epics dead, three at the hands of our agents and one killed by other Epics. A Joe in the Bush has died! He was a Lesser Epic. Illwei has died! She was a Lesser Epic. Lord_Silberfarben has died! They were a Lesser Epic. TJ Shade has died! He was a Lesser Epic. Vote Count Illwei (3): Elandera, Gears, Liranil Vapor (3): Araris Valerian, Archer, Illwei Araris Valerian (1): TJ Shade Archer (1): Experience Condensation (1): Danex GM Notes The cycle will end on December 10th, at 5:00 PM EST. If you need a vote count, just @mention me and I'll give you one ASAP! Sorry that this cycle took longer to put up. I needed to check over everything a few times and write the four deaths. Player List Spoiler 1. A Joe in the Bush - Endless Wrath Lesser Epic 2. @Ookla the Araris Valerian (Araris Valerian) - Max 3. @Ookla the Paradoxical (Archer) - Crasher 4. @Ookla the Grammatical (Condensation) - Fritz 5. @Elandera 6. @Ookla the Shadowed (Experience) 7. @Gears - Mori 8. Ooklil' the Wei (Illwei) Lesser Epic 9. @Liranil - Natalie 10. Lord_Silberfarben Lesser Epic 11. Quinn0928 - Starstrike Lesser Epic 12. Somebody from Sel - Sal Cómin Lesser Epic 13. @Ookla the Disproportionate 14. TJ Shade Lesser Epic 15. @Vapor - Vanessa 2
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