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Some info gathering on spren bonding, as of the end of WoR (spoilers ahoy!)... with some analysis. Prologue: Jasnah starts to form bond with Ivory "6 years ago". She feels that "she had sensed those eyes upon her during the previous months" - it wasn't out of the blue. Ivory seems to be in (leading?) a group of the same spren. Chapter 1: Jasnah states that "It's an act of self-preservation. The spren sense impending danger, and so return to us" Chapter 3: Jasnah states that "The knights' breaking of their oaths was very painful to the spren" and "Though Ivory won't speak of it, I gather that what he's done is regarded as a betrayal by the others of his kind" - I wonder if Ivory is the leader of a minority faction among his spren type. Chapter 6: Referring to the Spren she talked to in WoK when Soulcasting, Shallan thinks that "I do not think that voice belonged to Pattern". I suspect that is indeed the case because Pattern would likely have been semi-dead at the time. I suspect that other Cryptics were trying to encourage Shallan to re-form her bond with Pattern. Later in this chapter Jasnah says that she hopes she was "one of the first" (to form a spren bond) and doesn't seem to know of any others. Chapter 9: Syl believes she is the only honorspren to have come - the others were forbidden by the Stormfather. She knows there's others spren out there trying "in their own way, to reclaim what was lost". I don't think we have any real indication of when the Stormfather forbid the honorspren to form bonds or when Syl started looking. Chapter I-2: Ym has a basic bond with a plant-like spren, presumably recent from his point of view. He is killed by Nin. We don't know when this occurs based on any tie-in with real world events - it would be interesting to know if the spren was of the same type as Wyndle and whether they looked for a new candidate (ie Lift) after Ym died. Chapter 13: Pattern specifically says that "we... us... Worry. One was sent. Me." (by we/us he presumably means the Cryptics but possibly spren in general) in response to Shallan asking about the Voidbringers. We don't know when they started looking but Shallan's initial bond ended "6 years ago". Chapter I-9: Wyndle says to Lift that "You realize that I didn't choose you" and "the Ring said we should choose you". I don't think we know for certain what the Ring is but I'm guessing this is some kind of ruling council for Wyndle's spren type. Lift and Wyndle have been together for some months and Gawx becoming Prime ties in with Dalinar's reference to a new Prime at the end of the book, so the events of the chapter seem to be roughly in order with the main chapters. Chapter 80: Elhokar thinks that Kaladin frightened away the shadowy spren. Given that these seem to be Cryptics I wonder if they left because Shallan's bond with Pattern reformed instead - the timing would be right - ie maybe they were considering Elhokar as a backup plan. If so, I wonder if Pattern knows. Chapter 89: Dalinar forms a bond with the Stormfather, even though he didn't want to (I'm guessing he was compelled to by Honor). We also find out that Renarin has a spren bond that seems recent (given that his eyes improved only recently). Edit: forgot that first indication of Renarin's spren bond is back in chapter 14, when he grimaces while holding the Shardblade Adolin gave him. Here's my summary analysis: Some (all?) of the spren capable of forming the Nahel bond can tell that another Desolation is coming This threatens their existence, so they want to do something about it The spren need to form bonds with humans to help try to prevent what's coming but are highly reluctant to do so because of the Recreance. The minimum they can risk is sending just one member (ie in Pattern's case, and maybe others too). Maybe more might come later. Pattern seems to view what he's doing as practically being like a suicide mission. The Stormfather forbid honorspren from bonding at all and fears death himself. I don't remember Syl or Wyndle seeming to fear death though. There's 10 types of spren capable of forming Nahel bonds but I don't see any indication that they're actively working together or are unified, though they all face the same problem. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot of arguing going on behind the scenes - some are probably denying reality (like the Stormfather) and some are more pragmatic/serious. The earliest bondings we know about are Jasnah and Shallan. Curiously, they both occur close together (within a few months) and then there's a huge gap to the next one we know of (Kaladin). It seems unlikely to me that Jasnah and Shallan's spren were responding to something different - but then, where's the others? I suspect Nin killed some and the rest dismissed the threat. And here's some rampant speculation... I've seen a number of posts in this forum where there's grumbling that the Kholin family is attracting more than its fair share of Nahel bonding spren (and may be getting even more). I can think of one possibility (that doesn't require any assumptions) - network effects. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect Similarly to how the "network effect" can encourage users to congregate at a particular website (success breeds success) it could be that some spren have specifically chosen members of the Kholin household because other spren have done so previously. The spren would know that the humans have forgotten much, and need to re-learn. The most efficient way to maximise re-learning potential would be to do so in a group. They also might be doing this because Nin is going around killing proto-KRs. So once one spren has formed a bond successfully with a human, other spren may independently decide to follow in the first spren's footsteps and deliberately pick a suitable family member of the first human, if one is available. The 10 groups of Nahel bonding spren seem to operate independently, so they may not necessarily agree with their fellow spren. They may also have more specific requirements. Not all spren may even realise what is going on with the Kholins. So, I don't think it's a problem that not all spren have chosen the Kholin household (there's only so many to go around anyway) or have chosen at different times.

Re-reading WoR chapter 43 (where Shallon meets Mraize) two things struck me: 1) Mraize repeatedly talks about people as prey. "Deciding not to come in person, however - that cowardice turns my stomach. She hides, like prey." And later on, "Amaram is a Shardbearer in the court of Highprince Sadeas. He is also my current prey." 2) Something about Mraize reminds Shallon of her childhood memories of Hoid. "One drew her attention most. [snip] He reminded her of someone, a man from her childhood. The messenger with the smiling eyes, the enigma who knew so much. Two blind men waited at the end of an era, contemplating beauty..." Wildly hypothesizing based on feel of this chapter rather than any actual evidence, something about Mraize feels dragonish to me. The word "prey", his magnetism, collection of treasures, claw-like fingers on his scarred right hand, and the way Shallon feels his eyes on her back as she leaves. Of course this could just be Brandon writing a strong, charismatic villain, but I'm going with Mraize as dragon. And since Shallon recognized Mraize as being somehow similar to Hoid, that would mean Hoid is one too...

I've finally decided to follow the 17th shard link on Brandon Sanderson's website. Glad that I did! I was looking through some of the forums and I'm stoked that I found it! I usually just chat to my brothers about what we are thinking is going on in these awesome books, and now I feel like I have an entire world of thinking to tap into! I can't wait to see what theories these theoryspren are sprouting from! I'm excited to learn more!!

Not a lyric writer, so just tossing this out for someone who might be: 'A Whole New World', sung by Hoid. Only lines I can think of would go like this: A whole new World! A brand new magic I've never seen!

Back when we called the Cryptics "Symbolheads" or "Changespren", my friend and I were looking at the Greetings from the future thread, and it jokingly says that the symbolheads were following Elhokar because they wanted his wallet. My friend asked me why they'd do it, since it wasn't related to change. I said taking a wallet would likely result in quite a bit of change...

I really like your observations! A few points by me: 1. Ym is most likely a Truthwatcher, since if I remember correctly, his spren told him he should "use the light" or something along thous lines when Nale came. Also, his spren is described like "specks of light", while Wyndle is described like growing vines and crystals. This can still work with your suggestion that maybe the spren looked for another candidate after Ym's death, since as you said Renarin cured his sight sometime during the book. 2. I think that you may find a pattern if you take the theory that each order as a certain percentage of Honor and Cultivation, with Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers as the "purest" orders. If you look at it like that, then we got 2 Honor-oriented Surgebinders (Kaladin and Dalinar) and 5 Cultivation-oriented Surgebinders (Ym, Lift, Jasnah, Shallan and Renarin). If, in the abstence of Honor, the Stormfather is in charge of the Honor-oriented spren, and he forbid them from bonding humans, while Cultivation is ether approving, or at least not against it (she might be the mother Wyndle refers to), it explains why there are more known bonded Cultivation spren than Honor spren. Also, it might explain why there is one (known) honorspren bonded, but no highspren. Honorspren act according to what they view is right, and Syl might see breaking the Stormfather's word and bonding Kaladin as the right thing to do, while highspren act according to the law, and if the Stormfather's word is the law, they will not break it, no matter what. On the other hand, each group of Cultivation-oriented spren act as it sees fit, with the Cryptics sending Pattern, while the Jasnah's oil-spren acting against what his people think they should do.

When you are totally not surprised that a day after the Cosmere Monopoly suggestion someone on the forum started to create one.

When you are on a family holiday in the Australian alps over Easter and are still posting on 17s.

Just put up the first chapter of a fic I've been working on for quite a while. It's called Periapsis, and it can be found on my Tumblr or on my Ao3. It's a Stormlight Archive AU fic set in a military space opera setting -- think Honor Harrington or Mass Effect -- and it centers on Shallan and Jasnah's (eventually romantic) relationship. I'm pretty proud of what I've got in store here, so if that sounds like your cup of tea, I invite you to give it a shot.

In the thread discussing Adolin's status as a KR candidate, EMTrevor posted a snippet that I found rather interesting: For some reason, that sounded familiar to me, and so I flipped through WoR until I found what had set it off for me: A short while later, Kaladin asks what happened to the sphere Shallan was using for light. She tells him it's gone, that she must have dropped it when she'd grabbed him. There's an indication that there's something that doesn't match up here, Kaladin says, "I didn't--" but we don't find out what he would've said. That he didn't see it?Later, though, after the Stormfather's appearance, this is what we note: My read is that Shallan drew in Stormlight, which is why the sphere she 'dropped' went dun. My question is: is it just an effect of the Stormlight in general? The Surges Shallan has access to are Illumination and Transformation, and I don't see how either would help her pull Kaladin up. I also find the sudden italicisation of 'surge' to be significant and suggestive. It's also possible, however, that the sphere had been used up earlier when she was using Illumination on the chasmfiend.I suspect that although Sanderson didn't italicise 'surge' in the Adolin case, the answers for Shallan might reflect on Adolin as well. It doesn't seem accidental that the wording in both cases reflects each other, with regard to what Adolin did and what a known Radiant did. (Also, my first topic! Woohoo! )

I gave up a long time ago on people getting the joke behind my siggy. Most people see a creepy poem, some people know where it's from, and maybe one person gets the joke. I leave it there to inspire me of the everpresent nature of futility. ...when you learn all kinds of new things because of looking up people's siggies.

Regarding the timeline: CHAOS (15 OCTOBER 2008) When did Preservation decide to imprison Ruin in the Well? No need to be specific, I should think. A simple "Near Alendi's time" or "Way before Alendi's time" would suffice, or whichever time of reference you want to use. Also, this one is not a question, but nice Hoid reference in there. I especially like it how the Ars Arcanum refers to Slowswift as "bears a striking resemblance to a well-known storyteller." I'm on to you... BRANDON SANDERSON (15 OCTOBER 2008)Way before Alendi's time. Hence the need for the prophecies. But Ruin managed to corrupt them. The following also may be useful: KAIMIPONO (16 OCTOBER 2008)What was Vin supposed to do at the end of Well of Ascension? How exactly did not-using the power, end up releasing Ruin? I still don't get how that all worked. Can you explain it? BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008) What was she supposed to do? Well, this is difficult to answer, since the prophecies have been changed and shifted so much. Originally, the prophesies intended for a person to go take the power every thousand years and become a protector of mankind for a period of time. Someone to keep an eye on Ruin in Preservation's absence and watch over the world as he would have done. Imagine an avatar who arrives every thousand years and lives for their lifetime blessing the people with the power of Preservation, renewing Ruin's prison, and generally being a force for protection. (Note that Ruin wouldn't have gotten out if the prison wasn't renewed, he'd simply have been able to touch the world a little bit more.) Obviously, it changed a LOT during the years that Ruin was playing with things. What should she have done? Well, Ruin's release was inevitable. Even if she hadn't let him go, the world would have 'wound down' eventually. The ashfalls would have grown worse over the centuries, and the next buildup of the Well might not have come in time for them to do anything. Or, perhaps, mankind would have found a way to adapt. But Ruin was going to get himself out eventually, so the choice Vin made was all right. There weren't really any good choices at this point. She could have decided to take the power and become a 'good' Lord Ruler, trying to keep the world from falling apart. Of course, she would have had to make herself immortal with Hemalurgy to make that work right. And since she was already tainted, chances are good she wouldn't have ended up any better than the Lord Ruler himself.

Hoid uses colorful dusts to tell his story in Warbreaker, which is the medium he needs in order to Lightweave in Liar of Partinel.

You think the highstorms will keep you safe from this depravity? You don't spend a lot of time around Stormfather shippers, do you? Hint: the Storm Ruler is a shipping pair I've occasionally heard discussed...

And then spend two hours trying to explain it to them.

When your friends ask you what superpower you'd want and you say, "Surgebinding or Allomancy."

I find it ironic that he holds everybody in such low moral regard considering he broke his oaths and abandoned one of his allies to Damnation.

*Thinking of Aon Reo* (Reo is 4 rotated squares overlapping a double-diamond like the one in Aon Aha. That's already 20 Aons without the reflected one. So the version you're asking for would have 36 chasm lines...) I mean, it'll probably wait till after I've done the basic (1 chasm line) and all-but-not-all set (the ones going up on my Tumblr in the side-by-sides.) But I'll get around to it. If only so I can see the even more insane Aon Reo. haha

First the kandra... then spren... now Lifeless... Excuse me while I go take a walk into a highstorm.

Upvote for being sensible about being corrected.

You know, I've been thinking we needed a summary for a while now, so I'll take on that insanity and try to sum up the topic-so far. (Covers pages 1-10; will be updating as time allows) Updated through page 20 below. Hiding the body of this post to reduce clutter.

I was inspired by you to record this quick little "rap" I think I actually forgot to say a word ahaha. BUT ENJOY. (This is all for fun, I don't take my rap artist abilities to any degree of seriousness)

Lerasium beads! Get your Lerasium beads here! Instant power that doesn't involving painful piercings.

I am voting for Wyrm. These are my reasons why: (Sorry, the quotes aren't working right.) He accuses Aonar, a monk, and Swimmingly, a dead person. Quote I believe that currently, Cog, Swimmingly, Bart and Aonar are the most suspicious. However, I have no extra information to give on this matter, and only their forum posts to go on. Quote When I voted for Chide, I certainly wasn't expecting other people to vote as well for him. I was just hoping to make someone active again - He votes for people for silly reasons. Here he argues against breath giving to Aonar, actively hindering our metagame in favor of fun roleplay. Joe right below agrees, and did so within a short space of time, suggesting collusion. http://www.17thshard...-23#entry124966 Oddly protective of Joe, suggesting that someone leading a charge at him is not calm. http://www.17thshard...-23#entry125062 Joe praises the wisdom of Wyrm. http://www.17thshard...-25#entry125248

Yea, but because she is a side character - and a kid at that - it's okay for now. Plus, if you are reading Brandon for his following of the genre stereotypes, you are doing it wrong.

This may already be out there, but I couldnt find anything on it so here is my thought. Stone Shamans are actually the KR order of Stonewards left alone for 4500 years. Talenel died and couldnt lead his order of KR. Maybe they never gave up on the day of Recreance. They were known for being dependable. And maybe that is why Nalan wants them dead.

We know from the novels that the Well refills every 1024 years with power. We know TLR and Vin both go there to take the power, and that if it is released instead, Ruin gets released. So my question is, what about the previous few times? Presumably, humans have been around on Scadrial for a long time, so do we know what happened the last times? Is there a line of Heroes of Ages who each came along and took the power, and used it? Essentially, I'm asking if we have WoB on this. If not, what do people think might've happened before?

Oh, man! I think she's Baxil's mistress! He says she looks Makabaki but has Shen-like eyes, and I don't think . I know everyone thinks she's Shalash, but could she be both? Her full name is Khrissalla, which could easily be corrupted to Shalash, especially by a culture that wants symmetry in their names.

Noticed Weiry mentioning that there's a WoB from the Waygate livestream that says there's a kandra worldhopper. Talk about hard to find...

When you wonder if devotion is enough of an emotion to be rioted, and then begin contemplating Cosmere mind control.

When you've already been designing a mech suit for a Lurcher two days before reading this comment.

I have wondered since WoR about Nalan. - Spoilers- Why does he want to kill KR? The Heralds left the KR in place and no Desolation came about. Why would the KR return bring a desolation? The Heralds return would bring a desolation. I would think the KR would have nothing to do with the desolations.

Fair warning: this is going to be really creepy. So, obviously, Kandra are good at imitating the external appearances and the behaviors of people. They are very, very good at this. Wherever there are people, there exists a demand for sex. The supply that fills this demand in our world comes in the form of prostitution and brothels, but in a world where it's trivially, inconsequentially easy to abduct the most sexually appealing members of a disenfranchised population and create exact replicas of them that will obey everything you order them to do, no matter how much they might personally despise it? Kandra brothels must have existed. There's just no way they didn't. At the very least, there must have been Lords in Luthadel who kept Kandra in contracts which were essentially just sexual slavery. The implications of this I will leave you to imagine yourself. No wonder the Kandra hated humans. On a different note, though, there's no biological reason at least why a Kandra wouldn't be able to support a pregnancy in a female body, which leads to the question of whether Kandra-born children would be able to inherit any form of magic- perhaps the Feruchemy which their Kandra parents would have been born with, were they humans instead of Kandra, or perhaps a limited ability to change their own appearances- a half-Kandra, perhaps? (To all of you roleplayer-types: a kandra-born, half-kandra child might be an interesting idea to try, no?)

I always thought of Kaladin and Adolin as the second coming or new generation of Gavilar and Dalinar...

When you don't spend any time trying to explain, and just give 'em all copies of Mistborn.

Hopes spear into the tyrants heart.

The Really Big Thread Summary **Updated through page 20** Now FINISHED. See below. (Hiding this post to reduce clutter.)

Just finished it like right now!! I admit i was a little pensive with a more modernized version of Mistborn but i loved it!! I love the idea of those Twinborn!! Just realized how epic the Lord Ruler must have been

I think a big point to note is the difference in situations as well. In modern terms, Moash (had he succeeded) would be guilty of 1st Degree Murder, whereas Adolin would be guilty of 2nd degree murder. Moash attempted murder in cold blood, it was premeditated, and not provoked (at the time, Elhokar wasn't taunting him about his grandparents when the time came.) That speaks a lot, not just about intent, but about character. Adolin committed a crime of passion. He got caught up in the heat of the argument with Sadeas, which has been happening for two books now, and for once there was no one there to hold him back. Adolin didn't plan to kill Sadea, he didn't wait until his emotions were cool, he just acted. I think that difference between the two would be why Adolin could become a KR, whereas Moash won't.

OMG!! Can't believe that never clicked!! I've read that as well haha another excuse for a reread. --------------- On another reread just before Szeth comes for Dalinar the first time, i caught Kaladin mention 'Braize': -WOR chapter 32 The One Who Hates

I'd always envisioned a Nalthis-set videogame as being a kind of strategy game set during the manywar, where you can trade the productivity and army potential of your citizens for vast, powerful single breath units or awakened objects, or for armies of lifeless.

No she won't. She'll still be ten. Just for another ten or fifteen years

Chapter 3 WoK. "A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The water surged beneath so far beneath and he heard a child crying, they were his own tears." My theory has been that Roshar is a lot of greatshells. We have the interlude about the Reshi islands being greatshells and the "land" of Roshar is increasing the number of islands, which you can see when comparing old maps with the newer ones. More greatshells are gathering. The land floats and takes the shape of a storm. -(I have a couple other posts on this thread about it) I would like to add the death rattle above to this theory. It sounds like the land began to move and destroy everything. It appears to acknowledge the water deep below as if the land was floating.

You're both assuming that volcanic ash-based cement is "second-rate", when it has been used by the ancient Egyptians in the construction of the pyramids of Giza, by the ancient Romans in the construction of their famous aqueducts and such buildings as the Colosseum and the Pantheon, among others. In fact, mixing volcanic ash with cement is still done today due to the increased durability it provides. We can't assume that most Scadrian builders knew how to utilize volcanic ash in order to most effectively bring out its advantages. The first few people to discover a good method could keep the knowledge a trade secret. They could market their product as a more durable alternative to their competitors' cement, selling it at a premium, without having to divulge the fact that half of its composition came from the ash falling on their heads at that very moment. And even if the secret does come out, they still have a very cheap method for making good concrete. They could simply innovate in other ways to keep the prices up. And that's just one possible commercial application of ash. (Hmmm... This topic isn't generating the kind of discussion I was hoping for. In hindsight, ash is a boring subject that most people probably wouldn't bother researching about. I think it's better if I stick to magic theory from now on. )

I would say yes it is the best name, because that is what Brandon calls it. I don't really see the point in not using the canon name?

"I face the mechanical man who killed my father. He has claimed my hand, and I am beaten. Now I face his truth. He is my father." -Jed-eyed man, 5 seconds pre-death. Hey, you never said it had to be Stormlight Archive related.

On Roshar many people would mistake her for Makabaki.

I don't think it will come to a fight between Kaladin and Amaram.. i think kaladin has to have higher standards as a potential KR. But Kaladin did kill The shardbearer so would the Shardblade recognize him as it's owner? Personally i am hoping he gets one of those honor or dawn shards!! Long Live TeamKaladin !!

I have compiled a list of possible alloys for sodium with the base 10 metals and itself. Note that these were tested on drunk Sodium mistings, so this list's accuracy is less than ideal, and probably very silly and innacurate. Printing Pewter's Hemalurgic results was difficult for obvious reasons. Allomantic-------------------------------------Feruchemic---------Hemalurgic Pure Sodium: Creativity------------------------Ideas--------------Steals Ideas Sodium/Iron: Creates extra personalities-------Plot Twists--------Steals Plot Twists Sodium/Steel: Draws Inspiration----------------Epigraphs----------Steals ability to be inspired Sodium/Copper: Shields from idea theft---------Sense of Safety----Might steal insanity. We don't speak babble well enough to tell. Sodium/Bronze: Shows nearby ideas(?)-----------Biases ------------Steals character roundness Sodium/Sodium(Godly): Gives you Cardiac Arrest-Bone Solidity------Blows up recipient's head Sodium/Brass: Suppresses nearby ideas----------Climax weight------Steals long-term colestrol Sodium/Zinc: Enflames nearby ideas-------------Romantic weight----Steals twist prediction accuracy Sodium/Gold: Shows ideas you could have had----Bedside inpiration-Steals Salt tolerance Sodium/Pewter: Creates Red Herrings------------Witty lines--------Steals your printer Sodium/Tin: Grants Ham's personality-----------Foresight----------Steals Philisophicalness Sodium/Atium: Shows twists/ideas to come-------Coherence----------Steals ability to survive on mountain dew and pizza