Spren bonding motivations

[kari-no-sugata]

Some info gathering on spren bonding, as of the end of WoR (spoilers ahoy!)... with some analysis.

 

1. Prologue: Jasnah starts to form bond with Ivory "6 years ago". She feels that "she had sensed those eyes upon her during the previous months" - it wasn't out of the blue. Ivory seems to be in (leading?) a group of the same spren.
2. Chapter 1: Jasnah states that "It's an act of self-preservation. The spren sense impending danger, and so return to us"
3. Chapter 3: Jasnah states that "The knights' breaking of their oaths was very painful to the spren" and "Though Ivory won't speak of it, I gather that what he's done is regarded as a betrayal by the others of his kind" - I wonder if Ivory is the leader of a minority faction among his spren type.
4. Chapter 6: Referring to the Spren she talked to in WoK when Soulcasting, Shallan thinks that "I do not think that voice belonged to Pattern". I suspect that is indeed the case because Pattern would likely have been semi-dead at the time. I suspect that other Cryptics were trying to encourage Shallan to re-form her bond with Pattern. Later in this chapter Jasnah says that she hopes she was "one of the first" (to form a spren bond) and doesn't seem to know of any others.
5. Chapter 9: Syl believes she is the only honorspren to have come - the others were forbidden by the Stormfather. She knows there's others spren out there trying "in their own way, to reclaim what was lost". I don't think we have any real indication of when the Stormfather forbid the honorspren to form bonds or when Syl started looking.
6. Chapter I-2: Ym has a basic bond with a plant-like spren, presumably recent from his point of view. He is killed by Nin. We don't know when this occurs based on any tie-in with real world events - it would be interesting to know if the spren was of the same type as Wyndle and whether they looked for a new candidate (ie Lift) after Ym died.
7. Chapter 13: Pattern specifically says that "we... us... Worry. One was sent. Me." (by we/us he presumably means the Cryptics but possibly spren in general) in response to Shallan asking about the Voidbringers. We don't know when they started looking but Shallan's initial bond ended "6 years ago".
8. Chapter I-9: Wyndle says to Lift that "You realize that I didn't choose you" and "the Ring said we should choose you". I don't think we know for certain what the Ring is but I'm guessing this is some kind of ruling council for Wyndle's spren type. Lift and Wyndle have been together for some months and Gawx becoming Prime ties in with Dalinar's reference to a new Prime at the end of the book, so the events of the chapter seem to be roughly in order with the main chapters.
9. Chapter 80: Elhokar thinks that Kaladin frightened away the shadowy spren. Given that these seem to be Cryptics I wonder if they left because Shallan's bond with Pattern reformed instead - the timing would be right - ie maybe they were considering Elhokar as a backup plan. If so, I wonder if Pattern knows.
10. Chapter 89: Dalinar forms a bond with the Stormfather, even though he didn't want to (I'm guessing he was compelled to by Honor). We also find out that Renarin has a spren bond that seems recent (given that his eyes improved only recently).

Edit: forgot that first indication of Renarin's spren bond is back in chapter 14, when he grimaces while holding the Shardblade Adolin gave him.

 

Here's my summary analysis:

1. Some (all?) of the spren capable of forming the Nahel bond can tell that another Desolation is coming
2. This threatens their existence, so they want to do something about it
3. The spren need to form bonds with humans to help try to prevent what's coming but are highly reluctant to do so because of the Recreance. The minimum they can risk is sending just one member (ie in Pattern's case, and maybe others too). Maybe more might come later.
4. Pattern seems to view what he's doing as practically being like a suicide mission. The Stormfather forbid honorspren from bonding at all and fears death himself. I don't remember Syl or Wyndle seeming to fear death though.
5. There's 10 types of spren capable of forming Nahel bonds but I don't see any indication that they're actively working together or are unified, though they all face the same problem. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot of arguing going on behind the scenes - some are probably denying reality (like the Stormfather) and some are more pragmatic/serious.
6. The earliest bondings we know about are Jasnah and Shallan. Curiously, they both occur close together (within a few months) and then there's a huge gap to the next one we know of (Kaladin). It seems unlikely to me that Jasnah and Shallan's spren were responding to something different - but then, where's the others? I suspect Nin killed some and the rest dismissed the threat.

 

And here's some rampant speculation...

 

I've seen a number of posts in this forum where there's grumbling that the Kholin family is attracting more than its fair share of Nahel bonding spren (and may be getting even more). I can think of one possibility (that doesn't require any assumptions) - network effects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect

 

Similarly to how the "network effect" can encourage users to congregate at a particular website (success breeds success) it could be that some spren have specifically chosen members of the Kholin household because other spren have done so previously. The spren would know that the humans have forgotten much, and need to re-learn.  The most efficient way to maximise re-learning potential would be to do so in a group. They also might be doing this because Nin is going around killing proto-KRs.

 

So once one spren has formed a bond successfully with a human, other spren may independently decide to follow in the first spren's footsteps and deliberately pick a suitable family member of the first human, if one is available. The 10 groups of Nahel bonding spren seem to operate independently, so they may not necessarily agree with their fellow spren. They may also have more specific requirements. Not all spren may even realise what is going on with the Kholins. So, I don't think it's a problem that not all spren have chosen the Kholin household (there's only so many to go around anyway) or have chosen at different times.

Edited April 20, 2014 by kari-no-sugata

[Sylveris]

I really like your observations!

A few points by me:

1. Ym is most likely a Truthwatcher, since if I remember correctly, his spren told him he should "use the light" or something along thous lines when Nale came. Also, his spren is described like "specks of light", while Wyndle is described like growing vines and crystals. This can still work with your suggestion that maybe the spren looked for another candidate after Ym's death, since as you said Renarin cured his sight sometime during the book.

2. I think that you may find a pattern if you take the theory that each order as a certain percentage of Honor and Cultivation, with Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers as the "purest" orders. If you look at it like that, then we got 2 Honor-oriented Surgebinders (Kaladin and Dalinar) and 5 Cultivation-oriented Surgebinders (Ym, Lift, Jasnah, Shallan and Renarin). If, in the abstence of Honor, the Stormfather is in charge of the Honor-oriented spren, and he forbid them from bonding humans, while Cultivation is ether approving, or at least not against it (she might be the mother Wyndle refers to), it explains why there are more known bonded Cultivation spren than Honor spren. Also, it might explain why there is one (known) honorspren bonded, but no highspren. Honorspren act according to what they view is right, and Syl might see breaking the Stormfather's word and bonding Kaladin as the right thing to do, while highspren act according to the law, and if the Stormfather's word is the law, they will not break it, no matter what. On the other hand, each group of Cultivation-oriented spren act as it sees fit, with the Cryptics sending Pattern, while the Jasnah's oil-spren acting against what his people think they should do.

[Kasimir]

Very thorough and nicely done

 

I'll probably engage more with it when I have the time, but I'll just add a point or two:

 

2. How the Desolation threatens their existence is an interesting question. Just as interesting as how their bonding with humans might help stave it off. Given Darkness/Nalan's assertions that Surgebinding is dangerous and returns Desolations, it might appear we have a case of conflicting information here.

 

4. I'm not sure about Wyndle, but as far as I can recall, he doesn't seem to mention the death thing. Syl does acknowledge that Kaladin could/(had?) killed her, but her attitude seems to be more of, "You could kill me but I don't care." She ignores the Stormfather when he says (of Kaladin) "HE WILL KILL YOU" and her response to "HE BETRAYED HIS OATHS" is "I don't care." So some of our onscreen spren, with the exception of Glys (not enough info), Ym's spren (not enough info), Wyndle and Ivory (not enough info) directly acknowledge they will likely/most likely end up dying in the process. I'm wondering if this has any link to the Recreance/"the secret that broke the KRs."

 

5. Good catch w.r.t. the possible different spren factions existing, and it does look that way. We don't seem to see anything from the highspren as of yet, though we know Jasnah managed to get information from them regarding the Desolations.

 

6. With regard to the timing of Shallan's and Jasnah's bonds, I'm guessing that puts both of them in the vicinity of 1167. Possibly a bit earlier for Shallan, depending on when she started--we know her mother tried to kill her in about 1167 and so she stopped Surgebinding thereafter. Good point about what Nalan might have been doing with regard to the other spren.

 

I think we can add to the network effect: there's probably also a tendency for members of the same family to influence each other. Basically, I'd suggest that if Adolin/Renarin are attractive to spren, it's not just the spren trying to perhaps cluster/attempt the members of the same family, but because Dalinar is actively influencing members of his family to practise virtues/behave in ways that would attract spren trying to form a Nahel bond.

[Confused]

Regarding Kasimir's question about how Desolations threaten spren existence:

 

As the personification of thought, spren in Shadesmar are created and maintained by cognitive beings (humans and listeners). On another thread, I described the difference between human-bonded spren and listener-bonded spren as follows:

 

"Human experience - emotionally individualistic coupled with an ever-changing material culture - varies far more than the Listener experience of communal emotional responses (the rhythms) and a relatively static material culture. An individualistic culture will create more, and more varied, spren than a communal one. These are simply differences in temperament and culture, not differences in emotional or intellectual capacity. Eshonai and Venli are a match for any human. When spren seek sentience in the physical realm, they will thus have more varied opportunities among humans for finding suitable hosts."

 

If the Desolations were to destroy humans, spren would lose these opportunities and perhaps even lose their sentience in Shadesmar itself. Here's what Pattern says to Shallan in WoR Chapter 24:

 

"'Spren,' Shallan said.  'If people weren't here, would spren have thought?'

 

"'Not here, in this [the physical] realm,' Pattern said. 'I do not know about the other [the cognitive] realm...'"

 

I think this is sufficient reason for the spren to be concerned about Desolations.

[Arin]

I would only say that your analysis, number 6 speaks of length of time. I think Kal started his bond as a child. When using the staff for the first time he showed signs of the bond's effect. Maybe about the same time as Jasnah and Shallan.

[kari-no-sugata]

I really like your observations!

 

Thanks

 

 

A few points by me:

1. Ym is most likely a Truthwatcher, since if I remember correctly, his spren told him he should "use the light" or something along thous lines when Nale came. Also, his spren is described like "specks of light", while Wyndle is described like growing vines and crystals. This can still work with your suggestion that maybe the spren looked for another candidate after Ym's death, since as you said Renarin cured his sight sometime during the book.

 

Here's a few choice quotes of Ym's spren:

• The spren had been coming more often lately - specs of light, like those from a piece of crystal suspended in a sunbeam.
• It moved across the surface of the wokbench, slinking closer. When it stopped, light crept upward from it, like small plants growing of climb from their burrows.
• "Sh-shoe...?" a voice asked. Like that of a young woman, soft, with a kind of chiming musicality to it.
• The spren inched forward - tentative, like a cremling creeping out of its crack after a storm. It stopped, and light grew upward from it in the shape of tiny sprouts.

Very interesting looking spren! This spren and Wyndle are definitely plant-like but thinking about it some more, I think they are too distinct (even if spren of same type come in many different shapes) and I like your suggestion that it is a spren for Truthwatchers and possibly even Glys - rather makes me wish I'd thought of it!  Certainly this spren seems to grant the Progression Surge (for Regrowth) and if we consider Ym's personality, he does seem far more like Renarin than Lift.

 

btw, i forgot that the first indication of Renarin's spren bond is back in chapter 14, when he grimaces while holding the Shardblade Adolin gave him. This is just after Ym's chapter, though that doesn't mean that there has to be a short in-world time gap between the two.

 

 

2. I think that you may find a pattern if you take the theory that each order as a certain percentage of Honor and Cultivation, with Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers as the "purest" orders. If you look at it like that, then we got 2 Honor-oriented Surgebinders (Kaladin and Dalinar) and 5 Cultivation-oriented Surgebinders (Ym, Lift, Jasnah, Shallan and Renarin). If, in the abstence of Honor, the Stormfather is in charge of the Honor-oriented spren, and he forbid them from bonding humans, while Cultivation is ether approving, or at least not against it (she might be the mother Wyndle refers to), it explains why there are more known bonded Cultivation spren than Honor spren. Also, it might explain why there is one (known) honorspren bonded, but no highspren. Honorspren act according to what they view is right, and Syl might see breaking the Stormfather's word and bonding Kaladin as the right thing to do, while highspren act according to the law, and if the Stormfather's word is the law, they will not break it, no matter what. On the other hand, each group of Cultivation-oriented spren act as it sees fit, with the Cryptics sending Pattern, while the Jasnah's oil-spren acting against what his people think they should do.

 

Hmm, interesting ideas. If some spren have held back due to the Stormfather, then now that he's made a bond himself we'll see him repeal his ban. At least, other spren would be much keener to bond humans now.

[MistLord]

Incredibly thorough, you are to be applauded. You raised some interesting points that I hadn't thought of - like the Kholin network effect. 

 

I never paused to consider the political motivations of spren - which are definitely existent as Jasnah has made note of it herself. Good work.

[Arondell]

I would only say that your analysis, number 6 speaks of length of time. I think Kal started his bond as a child. When using the staff for the first time he showed signs of the bond's effect. Maybe about the same time as Jasnah and Shallan.

 

Sylphrena implied that she was wandering around the physical realm for a while before she found Kaladin.   She knew she was looking for him specifically but didn't know who he was.  I wonder if that was due to the Stormfather interfering.  

[Lightning]

In further support of Arin's theory that Khaladin started the bonding process early; we have some interesting statements from Khaladin to Szeth as they are fighting, about not being new to this form of fighting (in the air).

Edited April 21, 2014 by Lightning

[kari-no-sugata]

Very thorough and nicely done

 

I'll probably engage more with it when I have the time, but I'll just add a point or two:

 

I've only got so much spare time myself

 

 

2. How the Desolation threatens their existence is an interesting question. Just as interesting as how their bonding with humans might help stave it off. Given Darkness/Nalan's assertions that Surgebinding is dangerous and returns Desolations, it might appear we have a case of conflicting information here.

 

Nalan seems to be the only Herald who thinks this though - or at least, he's certainly the only one we've seen take such action. If his actions are obviously right then it's odd that the other Heralds aren't doing similar things, considering what they did to Taln. The Stormfather hasn't indicated that there's such a problem either. Of course, it could be that Nalan has info that the others don't but that also seems odd. It would be interesting to know how long ago the Recreance was - if the gap between the last desolation and the Recreance was 1000+ years it would seem difficult to blame KRs for causing Desolations.

 

Random side thought: I wonder if any of the Heralds had a direct hand in the Recreance.

 

 

4. I'm not sure about Wyndle, but as far as I can recall, he doesn't seem to mention the death thing. Syl does acknowledge that Kaladin could/(had?) killed her, but her attitude seems to be more of, "You could kill me but I don't care." She ignores the Stormfather when he says (of Kaladin) "HE WILL KILL YOU" and her response to "HE BETRAYED HIS OATHS" is "I don't care." So some of our onscreen spren, with the exception of Glys (not enough info), Ym's spren (not enough info), Wyndle and Ivory (not enough info) directly acknowledge they will likely/most likely end up dying in the process. I'm wondering if this has any link to the Recreance/"the secret that broke the KRs."

 

Since Lift thinks that Wyndle is a Voidbringer, I doubt he'd want to mention the death thing to Lift. It's interesting the Pattern basically seems to see his death as inevitable - yet as best as we can tell there was only one event like the Recreance. So either: there was more than one Recreance type event, something about the KRs changed over time making the Recreance inevitable, or it's not inevitable and Pattern etc are wrong about it (can't really blame them if most of the KR spren got killed).

 

The thing I found most interesting about Wyndle is that he didn't even want to bond Lift but was basically told to. Is that specific to this case or possible in general? It would be very interesting if it was possible for any of the KR spren to form a basic bond with a human simply if they wanted to - ie it would be theoretically possible for everyone on Roshar to bond a spren (if there were enough to go around). Though it does seem that the Oaths/similar are an absolute requirement for progression (and a certain degree of compatibility may be required for maintaining the bond)

 

 

5. Good catch w.r.t. the possible different spren factions existing, and it does look that way. We don't seem to see anything from the highspren as of yet, though we know Jasnah managed to get information from them regarding the Desolations.

 

I guess they may be as divergent as human society. Maybe they've learned too much...

 

 

6. With regard to the timing of Shallan's and Jasnah's bonds, I'm guessing that puts both of them in the vicinity of 1167. Possibly a bit earlier for Shallan, depending on when she started--we know her mother tried to kill her in about 1167 and so she stopped Surgebinding thereafter. Good point about what Nalan might have been doing with regard to the other spren.

 

It would very interesting to know what the exact trigger was. Was it something specific like Taln returning (assuming that the "Taln" we see is a fake) or something more vague...?

 

 

I think we can add to the network effect: there's probably also a tendency for members of the same family to influence each other. Basically, I'd suggest that if Adolin/Renarin are attractive to spren, it's not just the spren trying to perhaps cluster/attempt the members of the same family, but because Dalinar is actively influencing members of his family to practise virtues/behave in ways that would attract spren trying to form a Nahel bond.

 

I've even wondered if some spren could be suckers for "celebs"

 

More seriously, I wonder just what kind of searching capability the spren have to find potential humans to bond. Can they do some kind of wide area search or do they basically have to filter through humans individually? If it's laborious for them to search all humans, I guess they would prefer to narrow their search: eg to search Alethkar first because that's where many KR were based in the old days, for example.

[kari-no-sugata]

I would only say that your analysis, number 6 speaks of length of time. I think Kal started his bond as a child. When using the staff for the first time he showed signs of the bond's effect. Maybe about the same time as Jasnah and Shallan.

 

I've not thought about this too deeply but here's some quick research:

 

The first time Kaladin uses a staff is "seven and a half years ago" (WoK, chapter 16). Maybe closer to 8 years by WoR. There's certainly "something" there but to me it reads very much like the Thrill (which I don't think Kaladin knows about). I don't think I could quote the whole scene but:

• He's been rather showing off to Laral
• Kaladin is not protecting someone, just his pride/ego
• Kaladin is going against what his father would recommend and he knows it
• When he feels the change he becomes particularly aggressive, almost bloodthirsty
• If he hadn't stopped himself in shock that he'd hurt someone he might have killed Jost

Everything about the scene feels "bad" to me. Syl would definitely not approve. Also, there is no follow-up - nothing to indicate a slowly developing bond.

 

Actually, what this makes me remember is how Dalinar used to be a Thrill-junkie (as it were), by all accounts. He eventually found the light - Kaladin did much sooner. I can definitely understand Syl being attracted to the post-Tien pre-slave Kaladin - he's being protective, selfless etc but not until then.

 

Edit I remembered that Dalinar might have somehow been using Stormlight (in small amounts) most of his life (to help with healing wounds and maybe more). I wonder what's going on here since it doesn't seem to fit the KR spren pattern. I'll have to think about it some more...

 

Edited April 22, 2014 by kari-no-sugata

[Lumen]

I really like your observations!

A few points by me:

1. Ym is most likely a Truthwatcher, since if I remember correctly, his spren told him he should "use the light" or something along thous lines when Nale came. Also, his spren is described like "specks of light", while Wyndle is described like growing vines and crystals. This can still work with your suggestion that maybe the spren looked for another candidate after Ym's death, since as you said Renarin cured his sight sometime during the book.

 

 

In the Ym interlude, the spren is said to have a woman's voice.  Renarin (I think) refers to his spren as male?

[Sylveris]

Didn't said it was the same spren, just that is most likely was of the same type/order. WoB says that the death of the bonded human has some kind of an effect on the spren, so maybe another spren was chosen to bond Reanrin instead.

[Confused]

Kari...in her latest post said

 

"I remembered that Dalinar might have somehow been using Stormlight (in small amounts) most of his life (to help with healing wounds and maybe more). I wonder what's going on here since it doesn't seem to fit the KR spren pattern. I'll have to think about it some more..."

 

In a topic I started named "Dalinar's 'Dream' and the Spiritual Realm," I addressed this question. I posited that Dalinar had some link to the spiritual realm that allowed him to heal.

 

"My thought is that the light source represents the remnants of Honor in the spiritual realm, just as the Highstorms represent it in the physical realm and the Stormfather represents it in the cognitive realm. Investiture, according to Brandon, exists in all three realms. Perhaps the spiritual realm has infused Dalinar with some limited self-healing power comparable to the resurrecting power of Divine Breath."

 

Other posters thought that Dalinar's healing stemmed from his bond with the Stormfather. I rejected this idea because that would have aged Dalinar's bond to cover his entire adult fighting life - about thirty years or so. I cited WoB that Nahel bonds dissipate with time if the incipient KR fails to state his or her ideals. Kaladin's and Shallan's initial bond might have endured 6-7 years, but 30 years seemed too long to me.

 

Food for thought as you "think about it some more..."

[kari-no-sugata]

Some more thoughts, but don't have time to write up much...

 

There's a probably a lot we don't yet know about how/what can use Stormlight. For example, how does the squire bond thing work, really? Is this purely a person-to-person bond or are there some 'minor' spren involved, eg windspren for Windrunners? Remember that the spren bonds that allowed the KR to be Surgebinders was not planned - the spren came up with it. In which case, why would they be limited to just 10 types of spren (though there may have always been 10 combinations of Surgebinders)? If big spren could form big bonds could smaller spren form smaller bonds?

 

So maybe the "squire bond" is a combination of a KR bond (once it becomes strong enough) combined with one "minor" spren per squire. In which case maybe humans can also form an even weaker bond with the same "minor" spren by themselves - maybe just enough to suck in a tiny amount of Stormlight (like Vin's "luck").

 

Also, there's animals who can make use of spren/stormlight. Skyeels and greatshells seem to form spren bonds. Larkin can consume Stormlight. Was this "planned" or also accidental?

 

 

PS Another random thought. Szeth has been Truthless for 7 years. We known that there were spren looking for humans to bond more than 6 years ago. To close to be a co-incidence? Did Szeth spot the same signs the spren did?

[Kasimir]

Some more thoughts, but don't have time to write up much...

 

There's a probably a lot we don't yet know about how/what can use Stormlight. For example, how does the squire bond thing work, really? Is this purely a person-to-person bond or are there some 'minor' spren involved, eg windspren for Windrunners? Remember that the spren bonds that allowed the KR to be Surgebinders was not planned - the spren came up with it. In which case, why would they be limited to just 10 types of spren (though there may have always been 10 combinations of Surgebinders)? If big spren could form big bonds could smaller spren form smaller bonds?

 

So maybe the "squire bond" is a combination of a KR bond (once it becomes strong enough) combined with one "minor" spren per squire. In which case maybe humans can also form an even weaker bond with the same "minor" spren by themselves - maybe just enough to suck in a tiny amount of Stormlight (like Vin's "luck").

 

Also, there's animals who can make use of spren/stormlight. Skyeels and greatshells seem to form spren bonds. Larkin can consume Stormlight. Was this "planned" or also accidental?

 

 

PS Another random thought. Szeth has been Truthless for 7 years. We known that there were spren looking for humans to bond more than 6 years ago. To close to be a co-incidence? Did Szeth spot the same signs the spren did?

I believe we have a WoB about lesser spren bonds:

 

Q: Could any type of spren bond with a person (even if the results wouldn’t be a Knight radiant)? Or only the ones associated with a branch of the Knights?

A: Ooh, that’s an excellent question. This is something theoretically possible for a lesser spren to achieve.

So I guess they can, but given Sanderson said 'theoretically possible', I'm not willing to hold my breath on that being what's at work (i.e. lesser spren being implicated) with the squires.

-

It's possible Szeth did, but we'd have to have more information than we currently do. We don't know what signs the spren spotted, and if Szeth would be able to spot those and know them for what they are. I'd say that the spren starting to look for humans to bond more than 6 years ago is interesting though, in light of the fact that Taln (or the person who calls himself Taln, as Sanderson would say) only appears at the end of WoK, in other words, in about 1173 or so. Are there signs that a Herald will begin to fail and start to return to Roshar? Why did the spren suddenly decide something was wrong?

It seems to me to be related to the question of whether the person who calls himself Taln is Taln and the strange thing going on. Off-hand, I'd be forced to wonder if Taln first made an appearance more than 6 years ago, for the spren to realise, but that can't be right...