Confused

I agree with everyone! Surgebinding is a combined magic system with two components: The Radiant bond from Honor and spren from Cultivation. Bondable spren can consist of Honor’s, Cultivation’s, and Odium’s Investiture. In a poor analogy, I think the Radiant bond is the Surgebinding gun and Stormlight (or Lifelight) is the gunpowder. The Radiantspren’s mix of Investiture forms the different bullets (the Focuses) that shape the magical effect. How do spren accomplish this? If Honor’s magic users access Investiture through bonds, how do Cultivation’s magic users access her Investiture? I believe Cultivation’s “primal force or...fundamental law” is Transformation, the ability to inter-convert Investiture, energy and matter. Transformation relates to the cosmere’s first law of thermodynamics. Brandon says Lift can convert “mass to Investiture directly,” specifically into Lifelight. Khriss describes spren as “transformative cognitive entities.” Radiantspren transform Stormlight into their Radiant’s magical abilities. In exchange, spren manifest more fully in the Physical Realm. This exchange, this bond, allows the Radiant to direct the magical effect the spren Focuses. To repeat, accessing Investiture through the Radiant bond and fueled by Stormlight (or Lifelight...or Voidlight?) is Honor’s magic. The Radiantspren’s mix of Honor’s, Cultivation’s, and (sometimes) Odium’s Investiture determines how it transforms Stormlight (or Lifelight) into a magical effect. Thank you, Speeding Steelrunner! I completely agree! And thank you too, Dofurion, for also agreeing with this approach! In the beginning, I was a lone warrior against the sharp end of many pens. I much appreciate the company!

“For ones so confused, they are somehow brilliant.” [El’s Musings, RoW Chapter 108 Epigraph, bold added.] Exactly! I thought of these interrelated questions when recent posters scoffed at my Odious ideas. I try to take a technical, mechanical approach to cosmere magic. First, I want to address why mechanics matter, especially to me, before answering the title’s questions. WHY MECHANICS MATTER I believe understanding cosmere magic is the key to predicting the Stormlight saga’s direction. I’m probably the oldest active poster on the 17th Shard. I graduated college and first met my wife 50 years ago. That summer the headline was “Nixon Resigns!” (I introduced myself to the group in Call Me Grandpa.) I’m actuarially unlikely to live long enough to read the story’s ending. I fill my wait with speculation and long-winded posts. (Since I’ve not posted a new topic since 2020, consider this “The Tome of the Unknown Poster.”) I speculate Book 5 will end with Rosharans launching a cosmere-wide invasion of other planets, like the Fremen do in Dune. The Singer El envisions that “Roshar will be united in its service of the greater war.” (RoW Chapter 112 Epigraph, bold added.) IIRC, Brandon confirms this. (Maybe? My memory’s slipping...) But Radiants have a problem with leaving Roshar. They are too Connected, too bound to the planet. The Fused may not be so bound. If Odium can break free from the Rosharan system, Voidlight will become readily available to magic users throughout the cosmere. El foreshadows a possibility: Will Radiants become capable of using Voidlight as fuel? Will humans return to the magic and Investiture of Ashyn to destroy other worlds? If so, understanding the similarities and differences between the Fused and Radiants seems too important to blanket with the common name “Surgebinder.” Mechanical definitions matter. ARE THE FUSED REALLY SURGEBINDERS? Rosharans call all magic everywhere Surgebinding regardless of the Shard or magic system. The Fused manipulate (”bind”) the cosmere’s powers of creation (the “Surges”) to achieve their magical effects. But does that mean they’re really Surgebinders? And does it matter what name we give their magic? What Is A Surgebinder? I don’t think the name matters, but the magic’s mechanics do. Brandon seems to side with a more technical Surgebinding definition (emphasis added): The 2020 WoB confirms three other WoBs. The first, in 2008, says: “The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves. [Italics added.]” In 2011 he said, “The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do.” This makes perfect sense. There are only so many conceivable powers, that is, magical abilities. If you restrict powers such as flying to one Shard or magic system, you deprive other magic users of a basic ability. But how magic users gain their magical ability – how they access a Shard’s Investiture – does depend on the Shard that grants them the ability. This idea underlies the third relevant WoB, from 2017: “Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing.” IOW, flying can theoretically be achieved with any Shard’s Investiture. But accessing Investiture through bonds means the magic user relies on Honor’s magic. Using metal to fly (kind of) is the same magical ability achieved with Preservation’s Investiture. And we know most magic systems can manipulate feelings – again in their own unique way. Rosharans may call the Fused Surgebinders. Based on these four WoBs, however, they are not Surgebinders, at least for purposes of Shard and magic system analysis. The Fused manipulate the Surges to perform similar magic as Radiants; but in Brandon’s terms, powers like the ability to fly are NOT “related to the Shards.” Only “the means of getting powers” is Shard dependent. Since the Fused draw their Investiture from Odium and don’t rely on either Stormlight or the Radiant bond for their magic, they are not Surgebinders (technically). IS ODIUM REALLY THE “SHARD OF PASSION”? I will assume for purposes of this discussion that Odium is the Shard of Passion, or Emotion or something similar. My question: What are the mechanics of his magic? How does the Shard heighten and dampen feelings? People express their greatest passions when they feel least restrained. In crowds and in anonymity, emotions run amok. Odium says, “I am lust, joy, hatred, anger, and exultation. I am glory and I am vice.” (OB, Chapter 57, Kindle p. 551.) He seems the id to Honor’s superego: If Odium is unrestrained Passion, then Honor is the conscience, in Brandon’s words “the sense of being bound by rules, even when those rules, you wouldn't have to be bound by.” (I previously posted “Roshar’s Freudian Mind,” analogizing Cultivation to the ego, trying to balance the id and superego represented by Odium and Honor.) Mechanically, I propose Odium manipulates two types of Connections to control emotion: He can directly manipulate emotional Connections; and he can indirectly affect emotions by manipulating a person’s internal restraints, their conscience. Through this dual mechanism, Odium can dampen an emotion to numbness or heighten it to ecstasy. I believe Odium affects emotions by partially breaking and restoring these two types of Connections. Through this process, he acts as a throttle on these Connections. I have lots of text and WoB reasons for that conclusion, which I cite in other posts. Metaphorically, breaking these types of Connections seems like something the Shard of Hate would do. Someone disconnected from other people and society is more likely to be resentful and hateful. But the mechanics work too. To be clear, I think breaking and restoring these two Connection types is how Odium manipulates emotion. But I think Odium’s magic can manipulate Connections of every kind, including the Surges. IMO, just as Honor is the Shard of Bonds, Ruin the Shard of Entropy, and Preservation the Shard of Stasis, I believe the “Broken One,” the nominal Shard of Passion, is mechanically the Shard of Broken Connections (maybe even the Shard of Connections period). And that raises a question... ARE THE SURGES “CONNECTIONS”? A poster recently asked this question, since it underlies my view of Odium’s Connection-breaking magic. IMO, mechanically the Fused are Surge-breakers, not Surgebinders. They break the Gravitation Surge to fly, the Abrasion Surge to glide, and the Progression Surge to speed carapace growth, etc. I think the Fused break and re-Connect each Surge with the same skill and precision as Kaladin adjusts his lashings. But this poster correctly argues that my theory only works if the Surges themselves are Connections. I want to address that question here. What Is a Connection? I rely on this 2015 WoB for my general take on Connections: “[A person’s Spiritual aspect is] a mix of their connections to places, people, and times with raw Investiture. The soul, you might say.” This statement suggests that Connections are the cosmere element that changes “raw Investiture” into a person or object. When asked whether Connections are Investiture, Brandon said, “Connection is, like, the equivalent of a quantum connection in our world, so it's more like a force than something comprised of something.” Here and here, Brandon mentions his fascination with “quantum entanglements” in our universe. Quantum connections, or entanglements, are the “phenomenon that explains how two subatomic particles can be intimately linked to each other even if separated by billions of light-years of space.” (Source.) This phenomenon explains the ardents’ flamespren experiment in WoK. Brandon acknowledges in these WoBs that his version of Connections does not precisely correspond with quantum entanglements, but he mimics them for his purposes. In our universe, for example, emotional attachments are not quantum entanglements, but they are cosmere Connections. Because Connections change “raw Investiture” into a Spiritual aspect, I think of Connections as the cosmere’s data carriers. Without Connections, there can’t be a soul; raw Investiture would remain raw Investiture. To me, everything that isn’t Investiture, energy, or matter must be a Connection. Again, a Connection “is more like a force than something comprised of something.” Are The Surges “Connections”? The Surges are all forces of some kind. They are the “powers of creation” that purportedly formed and maintain the cosmere: Adhesion (to Radiants), Gravitation, Division, Abrasion, Progression, Illumination, Transformation, Transportation, Cohesion, and Tension. Each Surge represents some relationship between Spiritual aspects. IMO, that means the Surge is a Connection. But there’s a better reason to view them as Connections. Connections reflect people’s perceptions and not the cosmere’s underlying reality. Brandon says human metaphors like space and time are “irrelevant” in the Spiritual Realm; but they explain the Physical Realm in terms humans understand. (I wrote about this in a post, “The Primacy of Perception: A Realmic Theory.”) Brandon specifically identifies space and time as Connections. Human perception and not Spiritual Realm reality makes them Connections. Brandon says the Surges are Rosharans’ perception of the “powers of creation.” Yet the “powers of creation” themselves are human constructs: Conclusion The powers of creation themselves reflect human perception, putting unknowable things into some mathematical, semantic box. The Surges are Rosharan perceptions of the perception that is the powers of creation. Like all science, these ideas are replicable approximations of reality, not reality itself. The Surges are Connections because in Brandon’s cosmere (a) they are forces, not Investiture, matter, or energy, (b) those forces affect the relationship between Spiritual aspects, (c) and those forces reflect human perception of how the cosmere was created and continues. * * * * * I’m going to take a nap now... Thanks for reading! C.

Thanks for the response, @bmcclure7! Apologies in advance for my long-windedness as I cycle through your comments. Neither the “powers” nor the spren is “fueled by passion.” Spren are living ideas. All spren, including pre-Shattering “natural” spren, ARE attracted to people with the right temperament or who feel the right emotion. That temperament or emotion must be compatible with the idea the spren personifies. But spren do NOT “feed off of human thoughts.” Radiants, for example, become MORE like their spren as they progress through their oaths, not less. That seems contrary to the idea of “feeding” spren, which should diminish the compatible “human thoughts” the spren purportedly feeds on. Likewise, angerspren, fearspren and other “natural” spren appear when people feel the corresponding emotion; but these spren don’t take away any part of that emotion. Instead, the spren disappear when the person stops feeling that emotion, since there’s nothing to attract spren at that point. Voidspren do take away passion, but as my post states, for different mechanical reasons than what the OP and you posit. Passion and other emotions are Connections not made from Investiture. There is simply nothing there to feed on, no source of energy to make spren do anything. It doesn’t matter whether “emotions equals passions exactly” or whether they are “desires” or some other motivation or attachment. Emotions, passions, and desires are ALL Connections. People feel these things for someone or something else. Brandon says Spiritual aspects are a mix of Connections and “raw Investiture.” Connections resemble our universe’s “quantum connections” and are not themselves Investiture. Spiritual aspects thus differ only as to their Connections. Each change in Connection changes that Spiritual aspect. IMO, Connections alone carry the information that defines every cosmere person and object. They are the cosmere’s information carriers. Preliminarily, I think it's irrelevant that “surges break connection.” They can and do. My point, rather, is that breaking Connections is how Odium magic users access Odium’s Investiture. This is no different than Honor magic users accessing Honor’s Investiture through bonds, and Ruin magic users accessing Ruin’s Investiture through acts of entropy. At least three WoBs establish the “means of access to Investiture” theory of Shard uniqueness: “The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do,” “The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.” “Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing.” I agree that Renarin does not break a Connection to illuminate. That’s because, IMO, Renarin is a Surgebinder in all ways. His Radiant bond with Glys gives him full access to Honor’s Investiture – Stormlight – to fuel his magic. He does not need to break a Connection to access Odium’s Investiture because he only uses Honor’s Investiture. This is an important point: Radiantspren are NOT only from Honor. Most Radiantspren are combinations of Honor and Cultivation. Yet, except for Lift who uses Lifelight, all Radiants fuel their magic with Stormlight even when the magical effects (like progression) flow in part from Cultivation. It is the same with Glys, who combines Honor and Odium. That enables Renarin to use Stormlight to achieve a magical effect that flows from Odium. Again, “The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.” I have not checked any new WoBs or other cosmere commentary for a while. Is there now something that says the Fused are “said to be surge binders”? I know many believe the Fused have “hacked” Surgebinding for their powers. I don’t accept that. Surgebinders and Voidbinders both manipulate the Surges to achieve their magical effects. IMO, they do so in different ways based on the source of their Investiture and how they access it. The Fused do not use Stormlight or the Radiant bond to achieve their magic and, hence, are not Surgebinders (hacked or otherwise). But I’m happy to revise my view if you can cite to me something that says Fused are Surgebinders. Again, thanks for the response! Regards! C.

Hi, all! It’s been a long time. The OP raises issues near and dear to my heart – how Voidbinding works as a magic system. The OP makes some excellent points. I’d like to try to put them into my own context. My 2019 magic theory posits each Shard accesses Investiture through a unique “primal force” or “fundamental law.” This unique means of accessing Investiture distinguishes Shards from one another and reflects the Connection made by each Vessel to its Shard at the Shattering. We know, for example, that Honor grants access to Investiture through bonds and Ruin through acts of entropy. I believe Odium is a cosmere repulsive force that grants access to Investiture by breaking Connections. I discuss this in my magic theory and in the post, “Is Odium Repulsive?”: Breaking Connections is the perfect metaphor for the Shard of Hate. People turn to hate when they lose their Connections to other people and things. Odium-affected people turn inward, feel alone, and blame others for their misfortunes. At that point, someone could demagogue them up a bit, Connect with them strongly enough they’ll follow, and create some pretext to inflame them to hateful violence. With that context, let’s look at again at the OP: We agree that intense passion attracts Voidspren. Intense emotion attracts Roshar’s “natural” (pre-Shattering) spren as well. I also agree that Voidspren “consume” passion, but ONLY IF by “passion” you mean the Connection that forms between a person and what they feel passion for. IMO, passion is simply a form of Connection imprinted on the Spiritual aspect of people and/or objects. Viewed this way, Voidspren operate on similar principles to Radiantspren. Radiantspren fill “cracks” in their Radiant’s Spiritual aspect, strengthening their bond and increasing Radiant power levels. Voidspren (I theorize) callous over, mask, or eat away at the passion-inducing Connection. A deeply felt “Passion” will have the strongest Connection and the greatest resistance to breaking. The effort will require more Voidspren Investiture, all of which attaches itself to the Voidbinder’s Spiritual aspect. As the breaking continues, more Voidspren Investiture invades the Voidbinder, and the Voidbinder’s power levels increase. Voidspren Investiture brings the Voidbinder a Connection to Odium through which Voidlight continually flows. I believe the Fused perform their magic by breaking Connections – the Surges. A better description for Voidbinding might be “Surge-breaking.” The Fused break their gravity Connection to fly, their abrasion Connection to glide, and their progression Connection to speed carapace growth. The Fused dis-Connect and re-Connect each Surge with the same skill and precision as Kaladin adjusts his lashings. All Rosharans IMO perceive the cosmere’s “powers of creation” as Surges. Gravity, abrasion, progression, and other Surges are Connections in the collective Rosharan consciousness. IMO, there are no “Void Surges” or “Radiant Surges,” only Surges. The two magic systems rely on a different means of accessing Investiture to manipulate Surges. FWIW, I think Shard Splinters are Roshar’s Focus. Radiantspren, Voidspren, pre-Shattering “natural” spren, the Unmade, and Honorblades all shape and channel their Shard’s Investiture to the person or object that uses or is affected by these entities. IMO, as Focuses, all Radiantspren and Voidspren control their magic user’s access to Investiture and what their magic user can do with that power. Moash hasn’t been granted powers yet (I wouldn’t trust Moash with power either), but Odium does deliver what Moash most wants – nihilistic numbness. I’ve long argued Renarin is as much a Surgebinder as Kaladin. Glys may be a Voidspren, but Renarin accesses both Honor and Odium through the Radiant bond fueled by Stormlight. Some of Renarin’s powers do come from Odium, but since Renarin accesses those powers through the Radiant bond, IMO he is a Surgebinder. Again, I think Passion, emotion, feelings are all Connections. Brandon says Connections are not Investiture. There’s nothing to “consume” as fuel. IMO, “fuel” is magical energy. Voidbinding’s magical energy is Voidlight, just as Stormlight fuels Surgebinding. Voidlight’s energy constantly flows into the Voidbinder through their Connection to Odium. Odium’s Connection widens as other Connections break. That allows more Voidlight to flow, with more powerful magical effects. But this is just my view. As with all things cosmere, there are as many paradigms as posters. Nice job, Dofurion! Best to you all in this hottest summer! C.

Maybe, but it's noteworthy that Sebarial is an anagram for Base Liar.

I theorize... A Command is a directive for Investiture to do something. Intent determines how Investiture does that something. Adonalsium used the four Commands to create the cosmere from raw Investiture. The four Commands are different aspects of one Command: “Create!” “Change” is the process of creation. A second Command relates to the substance/structure Change acts on. A third defines the cosmere’s operating rules that limit Change’s scope. The fourth Command, which @asmodeus first suggested, grants life – sentience. Shard Intents represent different aspects of each Command. What Is a Command? Posters point out how Awakening Commands resemble what I’ll call Divine Commands in this paragraph. The power of an Awakening Command largely depends on how well the Awakener visualizes the Command. Adonalsium's omniscience – the “understanding of a deity” – makes his Divine Command so much more powerful and precise than any Awakening Command could be. Yet text suggests the “Change” Command is the Investiture equivalent of between 50 (aura recognition) and 200 (perfect pitch) Breaths. At most Change equates to 600 Breaths (perfect color recognition). Relationship Between Commands and Intents A Command can direct any Investiture. I believe that Investiture’s Intent determines how the Investiture executes the Command. Example: I think cosmere Change means changing a person or object's Spiritual aspect. To me that involves making, changing, or breaking a person or object’s Connections, or destroying the person/object altogether. I believe Honor, Cultivation, Odium, and Ruin respectively perform those functions. Commanding Honor to Change an object will bind the object to something else. Commanding Cultivation to Change an object will transform the object into something else. Commanding Odium to Change an object will break that object’s Connections to something else (IMO). And Commanding Ruin to Change an object will destroy the object. FWIW, coincidentally (and conveniently) Change and these Shards are now all on Roshar in force, Ruin via Nightblood. The Four Commands “Change” seems sufficient to create by itself if given something to act on. I think Change is the means of creation. Everything new derives from something else, just as Adonalsium changed raw Investiture into the cosmere. Commands like “Join” or “Persist/Endure” or “Destroy” to me are just forms of Change or resistance to it. Change acts on some substance or “Structure.” I suggest a second Command might relate to what Adonalsium Changed raw Investiture into – the cosmere’s Investiture/matter/energy matrix made manifest in the Physical Realm. This includes the three Realmic aspects of everything from subatomic particles to planets, stars, and space itself. There’s no necessary reason the cosmere should look like our universe. I speculate it does because Adonalsium “Structures” the cosmere that way. A third Command might relate to the cosmere’s operating “Rules.” Rules limit Change’s scope. Examples include Realmic interactions, cosmere thermodynamics, and other cosmere physics principles. Perception’s cosmere role may also fall under the Rules rubric. I agree with Asmodeus the fourth Command may relate to the grant of “Life/Sentience.” Brandon says one of the Dawnshards is different from the rest. That means the person who holds the Command (the Dawnshard) is different from the other persons who hold Commands. I believe the Life/Sentience Dawnshard is the one who’s different. IMO, granting life is the most godlike of all the Commands. (I think of Michelangelo’s depiction of the divine hand extending towards Adam.) The Life/Sentience Command may require an Ascended being to hold it. Do Intents Derive from Commands? The Akinah mural hints Shard Intents may derive from the four Commands. I speculate that’s true. Known Shard Intents IMO each seem to represent a different aspect of a Command. I show above that Honor, Cultivation, Odium, and Ruin IMO are different aspects of Change – different ways to make Change. I think Preservation is an aspect of Structure. Stasis seems like an important element of Realmic Structure. Dominion to me expresses Rules. Sel’s magic users access magic through geographic-based forms. I attribute that to Dominion. It’s as if that Shard says, “Gain dominion over your homeland before you can use its magic.” Brandon likens AonDor’s topography-derived forms to a programming language. The greater the Elantrian’s knowledge of local topography, the more precise their use of AonDor. Autonomy and Endowment both grant Life/Sentience, to Avatars and Awakened objects. That leaves Devotion and Ambition among known Shards. Their magic is unclear to me. I believe Devotion involves the free use of Investiture (unconditional Love?) that Dominion’s Rules control the flow of. Maybe Devotion is an aspect of Structure? Ambition’s magic is part of why Threnody’s so spooky, which is all I know about that Shard. The Shattering Nikli says the future Vessels used the Commands to Shatter Adonalsium. Adonalsium pre-Shattering WAS the cosmere, it’s mind, body, and spirit. The cosmere’s body and spirit (in Changed form) persist post-Shattering. Adonalsium himself – the cosmere’s mind – is dead. I speculate the future Vessels Commanded Change to undo Adonalsium’s Sentience, thus killing him but leaving the cosmere intact. Change and the other Commands then divided Adonalsium into the Shard Intents. Maybe...?

This post recapitulates a recent Discord debate on this topic. In honor of the late Justice Ginsburg, contrarian me dissents from the majority view. The issue concerns the meaning of the WoR Chapter 42 Epigraph: The debate asks these questions: What did Ishar do? Who did he do it to? How and when did the Oaths arise? COMPETING NARRATIVES Consensus Ishar “thrust organization” upon Surgebinders but did not impose the Oaths. Oaths inhere in each Order’s spren. Surgebinding required five Oaths even before Ishar. Within an Order each Knight and their spren agree on an Oath’s specific wording. “Perception is a big part of the Oaths.” Ishar’s “precepts and laws” were not magical but a set of mundane rules established for the Knights’ and each Order’s self-governance. Ishar threatened to kill any Surgebinder who wouldn’t accept his “precepts and laws.” Rebuttal Ishar’s Ashyn experience taught him how dangerous unchecked magical power can be. Recognizing Nahel bondable spren mimic Honorblades, Ishar insisted on an “organization” that mimicked the Oathpact. He created the Orders and imposed the First Oath, “Life Before Death...” (IMO, the Oathpact’s Oath). I think Ishar, perhaps with Shardic help, threatened to “destroy each and every one” to obtain their agreement: First the spren by forcibly breaking their bond while the Surgebinder lived, and then the former Surgebinder. Killing spren stops them bonding someone new. Killing former Surgebinders stops other like-minded spren from attempting to bond them. Honor wanted Dalinar to see the Nohadon vision for a reason. Alkavish’s revolt showed Nohadon “not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.” A single Oath’s grant of full power to humans didn’t stop the pre-Desolation carnage. With so few humans left, spren would have to wait many human generations before they could return to the Physical Realm. Nohadon may have been a Bondsmith. Perhaps with Shardic help and “Way of Kings” inspiration, Nohadon persuaded each spren Order to add four unique Oaths and permanently change the bond. Spren might willingly accept Nohadon’s solution to avoid another spren-wide catastrophe. Five Oaths incrementally ratchet up the Knight’s power as the Knight, through epiphany and self-scrutiny, attains each ideal. Oaths mark that ideal’s attainment. Incremental power growth minimizes the damage a traitorous Knight can do. ARGUMENTS Consensus What Did Ishar Do? Ishar did not impose Oaths. Oaths don’t create “organization.” Even within an Order each Knight and their spren agree on their own version of the Oath “though the concept is the same.” Malata proves Oaths don’t constrain Knight behavior. Malata and Spark agree she made proper Oaths and is deservedly Radiant. Yet she and Spark spy on Dalinar and the other Knights and actively sabotage their plans. To quote one Discord post, “the Oaths don't stop people from misusing their powers, so long as they can justify it and the spren agree.” If Oaths don’t “organize” Surgebinders, Ishar’s “precepts and laws” must involve some non-magical change. Consensus believes Ishar created the rules for the Knights Radiant and each Order’s self-governance. They cite the Knights’ execution of Kazilah as an example of those rules’ enforcement (WoR Chapter 51 Epigraph). Consensus also argues even a powerful Bondsmith like Ishar can’t change a magic system. They believe imposing Oaths changes Surgebinding. Shards themselves don’t actively create magic systems. Magic systems are the unplanned result of Shard Investiture in a planet. Except for Leras and Sazed, we don’t know any Shards that changed a magic system. How can a non-Shard make these changes? Who Did Ishar Do It To? Consensus reads the WoR Chapter 42 Epigraph (quoted at the top) to mean that Ishar organized and imposed his precepts and laws solely on the human Surgebinders and threatened only them with death. How and When Did the Oaths Arise? Consensus believes Oaths arise from the nature of each spren Order. They cite the diversity of Oaths among spren Orders as evidence. The variability of Oath wording within an Order further proves that Oaths arise from the spren themselves. Consensus believes Surgebinding required five Oaths even before Ishar. Rebuttal What Did Ishar Do? I believe Nahel bondable spren evolved as personifications of the Heralds’ Divine Attributes. They are attracted to humans who manifest the Primary Divine Attribute. Oaths mark the Knight’s progress to the Secondary Divine Attribute. At the Fifth Oath, the Knight and their spren merge Spiritual aspects and the Knight now personifies their spren’s Divine Attributes. I agree with Consensus that All Oaths arise from the nature of Nahel bondable spren. Spren grant power to anyone who fulfills their Oaths. Spark grants Malata power because she is Brave. He chose her from among other Brave people because she too wants to settle grudges. Malata will progress through her Oaths as she gains insight into the Dustbringer Divine Attributes of Brave and Obedient. Nothing about that process mandates who Malata should be Brave for or Obedient to. Shards don’t intentionally create magic systems. IMO, these points of agreement don’t compel Consensus’ conclusions. Oaths are natural to Nahel spren because they grow directly from the Divine Attributes the spren personifies. That doesn’t make Oaths a necessary part of the Nahel bond. Syl and Kaladin show Oaths are not necessary to form an incipient bond, at least for honorspren. She grants Kaladin power before he vows the First Oath at the Tower. Other Orders differ on when to grant power. Syl and Kaladin, IMO, prove Oaths regulate power but are not necessary to enter a bond and grant power. No wonder seeing human Surgebinders scared Ishar. Unregulated, unorganized full Radiants without any understanding of their powers or the deeper meaning of their ideals? Ishar rightly feared Rosharan Apocalypse. I believe Ishar organized the Orders and imposed the First Oath but not the others. Who Did Ishar Do It To? I believe Ishar threatened spren, not mortal Surgebinders. Spren initiate the Nahel bond. Killing mortals wouldn’t stop spren from trying to bond other mortals through whom to experience the Physical Realm. To end human Surgebinding altogether, Ishar needed to break each spren’s bond while their Surgebinder was still alive. He probably also killed the human Surgebinder after the bond breaks to stop them attracting another spren. Faced with eternal mindlessness and mortal death, spren and Surgebinder agreed to accept Ishar’s Oath. Consensus claims Ishar’s Oath changes Surgebinding. They believe only a Shard can change a magic system, and Ishar is no Shard despite his godly ambitions. IIRC, we have no evidence a powerful magic user like Ishar can’t change a magic system. Adding the First Oath as an Initiation condition seems slight compared to Sazed’s Spiritual changes to snapping. Bondsmiths Connect things. The first and (until Dalinar?) most powerful Bondsmith should have some say in the Nahel bonds’ terms. Spren capitulation shows they thought Ishar could break a Nahel bond. If Ishar’s own power was insufficient to the task, Honor could have given Ishar what he lacked. The Stormfather says Honor shared Ishar’s fears. Notum hints Tanavast’s death makes spren less trustworthy, as if Tanavast himself enforced spren compliance. How and When Did the Oaths Arise? I think Ishar imposed the generic First Oath when Surgebinders began to appear. IMO, the Order-specific Oaths followed Alkavish’s revolt. Like Ishar before him, Nohadon somehow secured spren agreement to change the terms of the Nahel bond. The spren themselves were likely appalled at the human losses. Too many spren lost the human bond that Connected them to the Physical Realm. With so few humans left, spren would have to wait many human generations before they could return to the Physical Realm. Spren might willingly accept Nohadon’s solution to avoid another spren-wide catastrophe. Nohadon’s Way of Kings outlines each Order’s ideals. Perhaps that and Shardic mediation inspired spren compliance. CONCLUSION There’s the debate. Now vote...

A recent Discord discussion about the possible Shard Prudence prompts this post. Brandon said in October 2019 that “Prudence sounds an awful lot like a Shard name. That's some excellent theorizing there.” Prudence is not “Wisdom” or “Ingenuity,” other possible Shards whose names may even have been changed to Prudence. (To me, prudence is an aspect of wisdom, and ingenuity is something else altogether.) This post assumes Brandon settles on Prudence for its specific meaning. What kind of magic would Prudence offer? Ruin (entropy), Preservation (stasis), and Honor (voluntary bonds between people) provide the templates. Each name is an apt metaphor for the Shard’s underlying magic. Let’s start, then, with the dictionary definitions of prudence: Based on those definitions, we might style Prudence the “risk management” Shard. My speculations: 1. Magic users must exercise self-discipline as part of their Initiation. Balance and judgment will be key Cognitive components of the magic. 2. Prudence’s magic users must carefully manage their resources to use the magic effectively. 3. Prudence’s magic will be efficient, with little leakage and a high output-to-input ratio. 4. Prudence’s magic will involve the “accumulation of small advantages.” I envision a magic that builds on itself, turning each earned advantage into a better one. As metaphor, I see Prudence as a conservative blue chip banker, measuring the risks of taking action against the costs of the action. I contrast this with Endowment, whom I see as the “angel investor” that funds the fledgling Breaths market. More on Shard Intents

Thanks, @Ubeka, for your kind words! Though the “pathways to power” concept is speculative, I believe there’s something to it. I’m just uncertain how far it extends and in what contexts. My theory analogizes pathways to “inter-Realmic power lines,” but that description misleads. Mechanically, kinetic Investiture runs through the Spiritual aspects of metal, EMR and water to the magic user’s Spiritual aspect. All magic happens in the Spiritual Realm. Mortals perceive the Physical Realm results of magically reprogramming reality. With that understanding, I will continue to use my inter-Realmic analogy/metaphor. As you asked, here are my “thoughts on these discrepancies” you note. First, each Shard has a pathway to power, not each magic system. A pathway is a substance that delivers a Shard’s kinetic Investiture anywhere in the Physical and/or Cognitive Realms regardless of the Intended magical effect. Focuses OTOH arise from the interactions of a planet and its culture with the Shard that Invests that planet. Focuses shape the magic to cause some Intended magical effect. Some Focuses exist solely as mental commands. Pathways are hoses; Focuses are “nozzles.” You seem to believe once a Shard Invests a planet the Focus that develops there applies everywhere: “The effects and focus are decided by the planet the magic originated on....” This common theory doesn’t explain how Ruin Invests Nightblood. Nightblood is made from steel, yet that steel doesn’t Focus any Allomantic, Feruchemical, or Hemalurgic abilities (Steelpushing, physical speed, and theft of physical Allomantic abilities). The Metallic Arts seem the only magic systems in which Shard pathways and planetary Focuses coincide. “Color” (IMO, Investiture-carrying photons) is Endowment’s pathway to power. Yet Awakening’s Focus is visualized commands, not color or photons. Khriss confirms Autonomy forges a Cognitive bond between Sand Master and microflora through water, but I believe Sand Mastery’s Focus is a visualized command the Master sends down this water pathway to shape the microflora’s growth. I agree not all pathways to power work the same way, just as Focuses differ. As you point out, Ruin magic users do not consume metal like Allomancers do. But IMO a substance that carries all of a Shard’s kinetic Investiture (a pathway) differs from something that shapes Investiture into a single magical effect (a Focus). Bind points matter for Hemalurgy (and maybe other magic systems), but they are not Ruin’s pathway to power. Bind points dictate spike placement, but the Investiture that transfers sDNA flows through the metal. Blood slows Hemalurgical decay and is in some way necessary for an effective attribute transfer. But Ruin Invests Nightblood without blood; and Feruchemy likewise is bloodless. Hemalurgy may need blood, but Ruin doesn’t. To review my theory’s elements: 1. Each Shard is a unique primal force/fundamental law/something natural combined with personality/culture. 2. Magic users access a Shard’s Investiture through that Shard’s unique primal force. 3. Once “released,” each Shard’s Investiture travels some pathway to the magic user or an object the magic user wishes to Invest. Bonds are Honor’s primal force, not Honor’s pathway. Surgebinders access Honor’s magic through the Nahel bond. I don’t know what Honor’s pathway is, though I speculate “Honor” would use some Cognitive pathway for its Investiture. Shard “spin” IMO relates to a Shard’s primal force and not its pathway. Spin (like entropy, stasis, and bonds) is unique to a Shard. Some Shards share pathways like I believe Ruin and Preservation share metal. Regardless, pathways seem unrelated to planets. I agree PR location doesn’t generally matter except on Sel. @A Radiant In Shiny Armor, Brandon does state color is fundamental to the cosmere. But he also says he’s not changing Awakening to make specific hues relevant. Color may be a “Spiritual attribute,” but its importance to Soulcasting (where hue matters) differs from its importance to Awakening (where hue doesn’t matter). Check out this thread where I go further into Awakening. Yes, Awakening can be performed everywhere in the cosmere; and Awakeners can use any Investiture to program Breaths for animation. But IMO that Investiture must be in quantum form to travel Endowment’s EMR pathway. Stormlight, for example, must be quantized before Vasher can use it. I believe he drains gemstones of their color to access Investiture. Breaths are indivisible quanta of Endowment’s Investiture that IMO can only process Investiture in quantum form. I believe Endowment's primal force – how that Shard gives access to its Investiture – is quantum physics. Lifeforms do live off Investiture; and Taldain’s Dayside sun does Invest the sand’s microflora. Any Investiture (not just Autonomy’s) will turn the microflora white. Add water to the microflora, they grow explosively. These phenomena (IMO) are part of Taldain’s pre-Shattering ecology. Brandon says, however, these phenomena “are not really using the magic, it's just charging it with other Investiture.” Khriss describes “the magic” as the ability to control microflora growth to shape the sand. This control comes through an Investiture-created Cognitive bond forged through water. (AU, “The Taldain System,” Kindle p. 369.) Thanks again to all for the questions. Regards! C.

Thank you all for an excellent discussion! Especial thanks to @Brgst13 for providing a step-by-step quantum explanation for how Nalthis objects absorb Investiture (and for agreeing with me!) Electrons like photons are subatomic particles, the subject of quantum physics. RShara, I agree with this. My theory posits EMR is Endowment’s Investiture carrier, like metal is for Preservation and water is for Autonomy. EMR can carry any Shard’s Investiture as Awakening’s fuel if that Investiture is in quantum form. I think Breaths (Endowment’s quanta) can only process that Investiture in quantum form. Awakening drains “color” cosmere-wide IMO because Awakeners pull Investiture from an object along this EMR pathway. It is the same mechanic as burning metals and dehydrating, both of which also pull Investiture into a magic user. Among known planets, “EMR exposure” only explains Nalthis’ and Taldain’s Investiture. I speculate Nalthis’ sun spews Investiture because I can’t find another ambient Investiture source available both on Susebron’s rooftop and in Vasher’s cloak. Not much evidence, but there it is. Master_Moridin, agreed. My point is that the energy (Investiture) transfers into the object through absorbed photons, not the ones that bounce off. That’s why “color” can’t be fuel. You and Brgst13 explain that process well. RJ, I’ve always read that WoB as referring to the Heightenings. Each Breath lost or gained affects a holder’s color. Divine Breath loss should have the same effect. And thank you and @Subvisual Haze for recognizing how black’s Awakening superiority over white favors my theory! Thermodynamics Challenge Alas, no one took the challenge. I'm curious how many people share the Discord view that diminishes thermodynamics’ role in magic systems. FWIW, here’s how I read the WoB I quote in the OP. WoB’s Backdrop: Cosmere thermodynamics first law says the sum of energy, matter, and Investiture is constant (assuming a closed system). Matter, energy, and Investiture cannot be created or destroyed but merely change form into one another. My Interpretation: Even “end-neutral” Feruchemy really isn’t end-neutral. It requires external Investiture to “facilitate the magic.” I read this to mean external investiture runs Feruchemy’s “operating system.” Without that facilitating Investiture, some of the Investiture created from attribute conversion would have to be diverted to “facilitate” Feruchemy. Here’s what I consider the most relevant passages, which say the same thing: Brandon acknowledges end-neutral Feruchemy needs external Investiture. That argues strongly in favor of thermodynamics’ cosmere importance. To make this point Brandon overrides the earlier WoB that coins the end-neutral concept. Brandon elsewhere describes Investiture as his "get out" for thermodynamics, the thing that allows the cosmere to break our universe's thermodynamic rules. He does sometimes break the cosmere's version of those rules, as with speed bubbles and FTL. Flawed or not, thermodynamics IMO is the essential guide to magic system mechanics that theorists ignore at their peril.

Despite Brandon’s statement, I find no obvious Nalthian Investiture source to fuel Awakening. Please help me solve this mystery. AWAKENING’S FUEL I see Awakening’s color drain the same as Allomancy’s metal burning and Sand Mastery’s dehydration. Magic lasts in those systems only while color, metal, and water last. Yet none of these substances is Investiture or otherwise serves as the magic system’s fuel. I view color (electromagnetic radiation really), metal, and water as the kinetic Investiture carriers for their respective Shards, substances that transport kinetic Investiture to magic users. Here are Nalthian Awakening’s fuel possibilities: Color as “Spiritual Attribute” Many believe color is a “Spiritual attribute.” I agree, but that doesn’t tell us how color could act as fuel. Most (all?) Spiritual attributes are Connections. A Spiritual aspect is raw Investiture mixed with Connections. Connections IMO carry the data that turns raw Investiture into a unique lifeform or object. An object’s color is unique data like its weight and dimensions. Because Connections are not Investiture, I think color couldn’t fuel Awakening even if color is a Spiritual attribute. Specific colors are magically significant in the cosmere. Color affects Soulcasting, for example. But Brandon says in that WoB, “I didn't work that into the Warbreaker magic,” and he chooses not to “retcon the magic.” He confirms specific colors don’t matter for Awakening in this 2019 WoB. Pigment @RShara opines an object’s “pigment” is fuel. Pigments are substances that selectively absorb visible light wavelengths. Selective absorption causes the object to reflect the other wavelengths, which our eyes perceive as color. RShara says breaking the pigment’s bonds yields the energy Awakening needs. This is a neat solution, but I have questions. What happens to the object’s Spiritual aspect when those Physical Realm bonds break? Why and how does that fuel Awakening? In our world, to break molecular bonds requires external energy; otherwise, stable molecules like pigments remain intact. What supplies this external energy in the cosmere? How does Awakening work if the object holds no pigment? Pigments are separate molecules from the objects they color. Brandon says an Awakener can drain color from gemstones. Gemstone color depends on internal impurities that affect light absorption, not pigments. How is that consistent with the pigment theory? If an Awakener can drain color from an object without pigment, then pigment’s bonds seem unnecessary as fuel. Something Else Because of my questions, I look elsewhere for Nalthian Investiture. No obvious source jumps out at me. Breath can be used as fuel but generally isn’t. Dyes made from the Tears of Edgli are best for Awakening and contain Endowment’s Investiture. But Awakeners can Awaken from other color sources too. That leads me to ask, Why does Awakening drain color? Color is the perception of reflected light. Objects absorb the other light wavelengths in the form of photons. Absorbed photons – the ones that don’t give off color – are all that’s left in the object. Why should draining the absorbed photons turn an object gray when the absorbed photons are not responsible for color? Best Guess My best guess: Draining those photons drains Investiture the photons hold. Like a Shardblade severs a limb from its Spiritual aspect and turns the limb gray, draining Investiture-laden photons IMO causes the object to turn gray. Endowment Investiture “sticks” to the object that absorbs the photons. My limited imagination can’t see another explanation that both grays an object and sources Investiture. The following vague WoB supports the possibility but with caveats. “A connection” can mean most anything. It’s also unclear which “two things” from among drained objects, Shardblades, and gemstone color Brandon refers to. Here’s the WoB despite these flaws: Investiture Source? Where might Investiture-laden photons come from? As quanta of electromagnetic radiation (EMR), the Invested photons’ most likely source is Nalthis’ sun. On Taldain, Autonomy’s Investiture “beats down” from its sun onto that planet. Nalthis’ sun could function similarly. I speculate Nalthis’ sun has always radiated Investiture onto Nalthis as part of that planet’s pre-Shattering ambient Investiture cycle. I do not suggest the sun’s Investiture necessarily comes from Endowment. It might be Autonomy’s or some other Shard’s Investiture. I think Awakening can use any Investiture as fuel IF the Investiture is in a form Breaths can process (discussed below). Breath holders can theoretically Awaken objects on any planet. But on Nalthis, Investiture stuck to the photons an object absorbs is the only fuel I can find that relates to color draining. Awakening on Roshar Comparing Nalthian with Rosharan Awakening is instructive despite how inconclusive the relevant WoBs are. It’s hard to know if Brandon means Stormlight can substitute as Awakening’s fuel or substitute for Breaths. When asked, “could you fuel Awakening using Stormlight, or do you have to bring Breaths?,” Brandon answered, “Yes, you could.... there are tricks to making it happen on each world. Some are easier than others, but yes you can.” [Calamity Release Party (Feb. 16, 2016).] Since the questioner asked if you can fuel Awakening with Stormlight, I believe Brandon assumes the Awakener has Breath, though that’s unclear. [Hint: Don’t ask Brandon compound questions! We can’t tell what “yes” means.] Brandon also says, “You can make a Returned feed off of Stormlight very easily. You can't use Stormlight to power Awakening very easily, but if you still have those Breaths, you can use them and reclaim them.” [Starsight Release Party (Nov 26, 2019).] This also sounds like Stormlight can fuel Awakening “if you still have those Breaths.” And Brandon says you can convert Stormlight into Breath by “Refining the power somehow into a more pure form.” [General Reddit (April 25, 2019).] Neither Hoid nor Vivenna knows how to do this, “so it’s not like a simple thing to achieve.” With limited confidence, I interpret these WoBs to mean Rosharan Awakeners need Breaths to Awaken. Otherwise a Rosharan Awakener would have to convert Stormlight into Breaths, which no one knows how to do yet. That suggests, for now, Rosharan Awakening relies on Breaths and some Rosharan fuel. Rosharan Fuel for Awakening I see two possible Rosharan fuels for Awakening: Stormlight and gemhearts. Brandon says here, here and here that Awakening drains Rosharan gemstones of color and ruins their Soulcasting properties. Gemhearts are made from Investiture leaking into the Physical Realm. That supports but doesn’t prove that Awakening drains Investiture, not color. When @RShara asks, can you Awaken using an underground gemstone that’s never been exposed to light and doesn’t hold Stormlight, the answer is “Yes,” if that gemstone is made from a gemheart. The more interesting question is whether mined gemstones can substitute. Most gemstones come from gemhearts: “Some are mined. Mining is not easy on Roshar.” Mined gemstones are “very similar. Not 100% chemically identical” to gemhearts because they contain more mineral impurities. Brandon hasn't said whether Rosharan Awakeners can use mined or artificial gems as color sources (though the latter can be used for fabrials). I believe if the gemstone holds Stormlight the Awakener could remove that Investiture to fuel Awakening, which will drain the gemstone's color. Endowment’s Magic Brandon (IMO) says Shards grant magic users access to Investiture through the Shard’s unique “primal force/fundamental law/something natural.” Ruin magic users Intend an act of entropy (spiking, converting attributes into Investiture, destroying evil). Windrunners Intend a bond to change gravity’s vector (lashing). I believe Endowment gives Awakeners access to Investiture through quanta. Breaths are quanta of Endowment’s Investiture. The Heightenings are the quantization of Breaths, since Breaths vary due to age, illness, and other factors. Photons are quanta of electromagnetic radiation (EMR), which includes visible light. Endowment IMO gives Awakeners access to Investiture through quanta (Breaths), fueled by any Investiture carried in quantum form. Conclusion: Breath Can Use Any Quantized Fuel This post’s opening WoB says Awakening “is just looking for any available Investiture to power itself.” I don’t think Awakeners can use Investiture in any form. A Rosharan Awakener cannot simply inhale Stormlight and Awaken an object with that fuel even if they do hold Breaths. The reason IMO is Endowment’s “quantum” primal force. I think Breaths need to process Investiture in quantum form. Like metal and water carry their Shard’s kinetic Investiture, I believe photons carry Endowment’s kinetic investiture. You can Awaken anywhere in the cosmere with any Investiture, but you must access that Investiture by draining the “color” from an Invested object. That Investiture reaches the Awakener down an EMR pathway. I speculate on Nalthis that Investiture radiates from its sun, like on Taldain. And for those who think draining “color” by itself suffices to fuel Awakening, this “Poster Challenge” is for you. POSTER CHALLENGE – “HAND WAVIUM” OR COSMERE THERMODYNAMICS? Folks on Discord surprised me the other day by rejecting the idea cosmere thermodynamics helps explain magic. They feel cosmere thermodynamics itself is broken or has so many exceptions as to limit its value as an analytical tool. Many think Awakening and other magic systems don’t need fuel and don’t have to comply with thermodynamics’ rules. They accept magical solutions that I think involve too much “hand wavium.” I therefore offer this POSTER CHALLENGE: Read this WoB carefully and summarize its main conclusion. What do YOU think Brandon says here? Thanks for playing! And for my Discord friends, I offer this quote: Brandon violates his own rules more often than one would like. But those rules exist and IMHO should guide the development of our magic system theories. All the best! C.

Thanks, @Dreamer, for the kind words. To be clear, I describe pre-Shattering Investiture cycles that IMO largely remain in place. These pre-Shattering cycles circulate a planet’s ambient Investiture and are part of the planetary ecosystem. Breaths and the Tears arose post-Shattering. Breaths recycle as Nalthians are born and die. The Tears’ Investiture recycles through the Tears, Endowment’s perpendicularity. My preceding post speculates, “Nalthis’ sun always radiated Investiture onto that planet” as part of its Investiture cycle. Solar radiation is the EMR part. I don’t identify the radiated Investiture as Endowment’s and I don’t think it matters which Shard’s it is. Awakening can use any Investiture as fuel on any planet. My focus instead has been on EMR as Endowment’s energy carrier. EMR is to Endowment what metal is to Preservation and water (IMO) is to Autonomy. These substances each bring Investiture to their Shard’s magic users. Breath has to process Awakening's Investiture. IMO, the Investiture must first be quantized before photons can carry them. Rosharan Awakeners can’t simply inhale Stormlight. They must drain the gemstone’s color to capture the Stormlight. Stormlight moves along an EMR pathway to the Awakener. The commonality between Breaths and photons is that both are quanta. I believe Endowment is the “quantum” Shard, the way Ruin is entropy and Honor is bonds. Endowment gives the ability to Awaken through quanta (Breaths) and fuels that ability through quanta (Investiture-laden photons). FWIW, I think Nightblood is so destructive (in part) because he disassembles matter into its subatomic particles (quanta). Poof! @Eternal Khol, the most maddening part of cosmere theorizing is Brandon’s inconsistency. I interpret the 2015 WoB to say microkinesis is a post-Shattering magic. The transcript itself can be read either way, but the WoB’s recording includes more dialogue. The questioner assumes Dragonsteel takes place after the Shattering and that microkinesis is a post-Shattering magic system. Brandon corrects him to make clear microkinesis is possible, but not at the time of Dragonsteel. That’s how I hear it anyway. The 2016 WoB says nothing of when such a magic system existed or might exist, only that it was one of the first systems Brandon conceived and is still canon. I interpret “canon” to mean the system still fits Brandon’s cosmere rules. I don’t think he’s trotted that system out yet. There’s also this WoB that references the cosmere term for atom as “coming from one of the original magics used on Yolen pre-Shattering.” A magic that manipulates atoms can take many forms including Yolen Lightweaving. I’m unsure we can conclude much from that WoB. I mention it for completeness’ sake. Having said all that, we’re left with uncertainty. You think there were pre-Shattering perpendicularities (other than Adonalsium’s). I don’t but acknowledge the possibility. I prefer Brandon’s two thoughtful, unambiguous WoBs about pre- vs. post-Shattering magic systems over ones that seem more off-the-cuff and confusing. But who knows. Regardless, I still believe my association of perpendicularities with magic systems and Major Shardworlds is correct even if small exceptions may exist here or there. I am curious on one point: Do you deliberately distinguish between “people with magic” and “humans with magic” systems? As you know, Brandon defines “people” as any sapient entity. They don’t have to be human. Do you think the dragons and Sho Del had pre-Shattering magic systems like the human post-Shattering types? Finally, FWIW and without meaning to be patronizing, I’d like to praise you two. You always have interesting things to say and think them through. I appreciate your good questions and analysis. I’ve changed many theories on my journey to solving the cosmere puzzle. Folks like you make me refine and focus my approaches. I just wanted to say, “Thanks!”

@Eternal Khol, I know there were magic systems before the Shattering. But they were a different kind of system, involving interactions with nature: Brandon later confirmed this distinction in the WoB about assigned Investiture, Autonomy, and their Avatars, excerpted for relevance: I read these WoBs to mean people pre-Shattering could interact with magical settings. Yolen Lightweaving, for example, allows Hoid to create realistic and captivating illusions. His illusions cannot create a new audiovisual identity that sticks to him. (He has other ways of doing that.) Pre-Shattering magic does not give people access to large enough amounts of Investiture for Hoid’s Lightweaving (pre-Cryptic) to emulate Shallan’s. Shards created “people with magic” systems when they massively Invested planets. We agree the perpendicularity “is nothing compared to the actual shard who powers the magic.” But perpendicularities show where Shards placed their massive Investiture concentrations. That’s why I associate “people with magic” systems with perpendicularities. Examples of each magic system type on the Major Shardworlds: “Interactions with Nature” (my best guess) Nalthis - Heightenings Roshar – Pre-Shattering ecosystem; “Old Magic” (through Nightwatcher) Scadrial – Mists Sel – Don’t know enough First of the Sun - Aviar Taldain – Darkside magic (IMO) “People with Magic” Nalthis – Awakening Roshar – Surgebinding, Voidbinding, Fabrials Scadrial – Allomancy, Feruchemy, Hemalurgy Sel – AonDor, Bloodsealing, Dakhor Dor, Forgery First of the Sun - None Taldain – Sand Mastery Even if Autonomy does Invest the full spectrum, they might still choose to concentrate their Investiture in the infrared frequencies. Based on text, WoB, and logic, I believe Autonomy distributes Investiture through heat. The microflora can gain that Investiture through heat just as easily as light. Khriss says Autonomy's Investiture "beats down" on Taldain. An Internet search found multiple references to "heat beating down" but none to light. Khriss says Darkside’s UV light emanates from Darkside’s white dwarf star: “The ultraviolet light that shines through the [particulate] ring causes a certain reflective luminescence in much of the plant and animal life.” (AU, “The Taldain System,” Kindle p. 369.) I don’t think that star is the source of Darkside’s Investiture. I believe instead it flows from Autonomy, distributed to Darkside through Taldain’s water cycle. Of course Endowment’s Investiture is Breath. But Breath may not be her Investiture’s only manifestation, just as honorspren and Stormlight both manifest Honor’s Investiture. Even if Nalthis’ sun Invests photons with, say, Autonomy’s assigned Investiture, Awakening can still use that for fuel. Endowment’s magic IMO uses quanta – Breaths and photons. I believe Awakening can use any Investiture in quantum form that photons can carry. Hence the need to “drain color.” FWIW, I believe all planets have their own Investiture cycle, some means to circulate their inherent Investiture. IMO: Roshar’s highstorms always blew Investiture. Taldain’s Dayside sun always radiated Investiture onto Dayside, circulated through Taldain’s water cycle. Nalthis’ sun always radiated Investiture onto that planet. I suspect the Vessels chose their Shardworlds knowing how their Shards would fit in there and the changes they could make.

Pre-Shattering Perpendicularities I can see this going either way. Your cited WoB makes clear Worldhopping may not have happened pre-Shattering (“it’s possible...I don’t know if there [were]”) and in only “very very very few instances” if it did. I still think the safer bet is that pre-Shattering perpendicularities didn’t exist. Logic supports that tenuous conclusion. All planets have inherent Investiture, but pre-Shattering the planets had much less. Magic then involved “interactions with nature” using the planets' ambient Investiture. “People with magic” systems like Surgebinding and Awakening arose after the Shards Invested their Major Shardworlds through their perpendicularities. Few if any planets pre-Shattering held the “massive collection of Investiture” that pulls a perpendicularity from the Spiritual Realm. Otherwise “people with magic” systems would have existed before the Shattering. Such systems need perpendicularities’ massive Investiture. It’s possible one or more Vessels explored the Cognitive Realm through the Yolen perpendicularity to prepare for the Shattering. They could have gone in and out the one entrance. FWIW, I think the Vessels killed Adonalsium by killing his mind, his personhood, leaving his unattended raw power behind for the Vessels to Connect to. I once posted the Vessels killed Adonalsium’s mind with an aluminum “bomb”: And it may be worth a chuckle to look at my short parody of the Shattering. Taldain’s Perpendicularity I agree with you, but there’s strong evidence of a Taldain perpendicularity. Taldain wasn’t always isolated. Khriss got off-world somehow. I distinguish between this perpendicularity (whichever Avatar’s it is) and Autonomy’s own perpendicularity because the latter is clearly not on Taldain. Khriss says, “The Investiture beats down from the sky.” Autonomy and Endowment I would never argue physics with you or anyone else, Dreamer! I was an English major whose last college science class was almost half-a-century ago. But despite Emerson’s admonition, my little mind still insists on a foolish consistency when it comes to cosmere theorizing. That means periodically updating my stale science knowledge with the Internet’s fake news. That venerable source tells me you are correct. Before getting to my lay understanding of Shard science, here’s context for the heat-light distinction. I theorize at least some Shards move their Investiture to magic users through some substance magic users consume. Sand Masters dehydrate (burn water) to draw Investiture, Awakeners drain “color,” and Allomancers burn metal. Marasi calls Allomantic metal a “pathway to power,” and Khriss describes it as a “catalyst.” When the pathway/catalyst is gone, the magic stops. Yet none of these substances is fuel or Investiture. Heat and Light I speculate heat and light are how Autonomy and Endowment each disperse their Investiture. I think both Shards flare Invested photons onto their planets from their suns. Photons, as you know, are quanta of electromagnetic radiation (EMR) and carry both light and heat energy depending on the photon’s frequency. I think Brandon calls photons “light particles” because that’s how most people view photons. But I interpret him to mean if you can see starlight, you will get the energy its photons carry regardless of that energy’s form. I theorize Autonomy Invests photons mostly in the infrared frequencies and Endowment Invests photons mostly in the visible light frequencies. Autonomy’s photons cause irradiated objects to heat. Endowment’s photons cause irradiated objects to absorb some light frequencies and reflect the frequencies our eye perceives as “color.” Autonomy Uses Heat Heating water seems important to Autonomy’s magic systems. Sand Masters dehydrate to forge a Cognitive bond with Invested microflora. They literally burn water to shape the sand. I believe Patji’s land predators form Cognitive bonds with their prey through the island’s “dense humidity.” Ocean predators are more dangerous than land predators IMO because the Cognitive bond is stronger in water. By placing their Investiture in the infrared frequencies, Autonomy ensures their Investiture will release into the atmosphere through evaporation and the planet’s water cycle. Autonomy chooses to Invest in hot climates like deserts and jungles. Endowment Uses Light Brandon says any Investiture can fuel Awakening including Stormlight. I think the photons an object absorbs carry Awakening’s Investiture. IMO, “color draining” turns objects gray because, like with Shardblade wounds, the drained object no longer holds Investiture. This has been a controversial view, but I’ve not seen another explanation for how Awakeners fuel their magic. Breath is not fuel since all the Breath is returned after Awakening. Like Feruchemy, Intent alone works for non-animating Breath transfers to a person or object; but Brandon says Awakening an object needs Investiture as fuel. I think Rosharan Awakeners access Stormlight through color, or more accurately through Investiture-carrying photons. Awakeners can drain a gemstone of its Stormlight until the gemstone’s color turns gray and it disfigures. Photons absorbed by the gemstone somehow carry Stormlight to the Awakener. I suspect this is how Vasher gets his Stormlight. His colored rocks may be drained gemstones. IMO, photons must always carry Endowment’s Investiture to the Awakener. Inhaling Stormlight like a Surgebinder won’t work for a Rosharan Awakener. The Awakener uses Breath, not Radiant spren, to process Investiture. I theorize Endowment gives Awakeners access to her Investiture through a quantum physics “primal force.” Breaths are quanta of Endowment’s Investiture, and photons are EMR quanta. I think Stormlight somehow has to be quantized before the Awakener’s Breath can use it as fuel.

Yes, I know. My question is, why should that have happened? It seems odd to me for the reasons stated. Yes, but I read that WoB to refer specifically to the mists pulling away. Nightblood is filled with Ruin. Just like the mists pulled away from Vin when she wore Ruin’s earring, they'll pull away from any Ruin manifestation including Nightblood. Diametrical opposites. When and where was this discussion? I know some of these questions have come up before, but I didn’t see this one. I’ll quote Khriss’ language and then give my reading: First, I distinguish between Autonomy and their (likely) Avatar the Sand Lord. The Sand Lord will have their own perpendicularity on Taldain. My guess is that’s the blocked perpendicularity. But if Autonomy themselves “resides” anywhere, it is in the Dayside sun or someplace in a direct line with the sun. Khriss is definitive in saying the Investiture comes from the sky. When Khriss says, “it is not as simple as this,” I think she means Autonomy Invests more than Dayside. I believe Autonomy’s Investiture falls into its oceans. Taldain’s water cycle causes that Investiture to circulate throughout Taldain, including Darkside. If you’ve read my Autonomy theories, you’ll know how important I think water is to Autonomy’s magic. Darkside may look lit by blacklight, but IMO its magic comes from Autonomy’s Investiture. “The mechanism is best explained under those assumptions” because sunlight does carry the Investiture. Khriss’ initial mistake was not seeing how Investiture beating from the sky hits water as well as land. Having said all this, I agree it’s still conjecture. Also, @Dreamer, why do you believe light carries Autonomy’s Investiture? I think heat carries it, not light. I think light carries Endowment’s Investiture to Nalthis. And to anyone who may read this, my purpose in writing the OP was to spark discussion, not assert conclusions. Perpendicularities are very puzzling to me. I still hope you might find something new in my observations to comment on or lead you to your own ideas. If not, I’ll keep looking for other stuff to excite and entertain you! Stay safe and healthy, everyone.