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Long Game 35: L35 Miserables

Haelbarde

By Haelbarde
in Sanderson Elimination

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Doc12
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VOILA 'TIS I!! THE DOC HAS RETURNED TO SE!!! TO THOSE WHO HAVE MISSED HIM, THE ADORING MASSES, THE CHEERS! *blinks Where are the cheers? Heh. So yes. I'm back, for a shor

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It’s the year 342, and the discontentment of the people at the injustice of Elendel is barely seething below the surface. As chaos errupts around the Basin, with the growing food shortages in the oute

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Took a while and I got distracted a few times, but here is my first addition in this games parodies! Do you hear the voices sing? Singing a song of vengeful dead It is the music of the

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Amanuensis

Amanuensis

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, A Joe in the Bush said:

Aman, why do you think Stick and yitzi are in cahoots? I was actually leaning Brightness and yitzi being in cahoots.

Brightness is an option too, but Stick because she said she'd probably vote for Rand of the three (him, Yitzi, Straw). Guess I could lump her being with Straw in there as well, but either way I don't remember any progression from Stick that would suggest her coming to those conclusions.

Edited by Amanuensis
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Amanuensis

Amanuensis

Posted
Posted (edited)

For the record, I'm townleaning both of them but it's for extremely weak reasons so would definitely reassess in a few cycles or so. All players who voted for Jon feel pure given I doubt that Crimsn, Stick or BR would go risk looking bad from a CFD just to save a teammate.

EDIT: Hi @Arinian. You haven't posted much. Whatcha thinking about?

Also toilet just got fixed so I can now finally go to sleep. Good day / night peoples.

Edited by Amanuensis
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DeTess

DeTess

Posted
Posted (edited)

Okay, I'm going to the thread right now, but you people managed to add 10 pages while I was asleep+busy with an exam. There's a couple of things I'd like to comment on right now (apologies if this has been brought up later in the thread).

First of all, several people are accusing me of 'alienating' the neutrals. The thing is, I don't consider a neutral running around asking for an elim to contact him so that they can work together a neutral, exactly. Maybe Joe cleared all of that up at some point, but when I made my vote two people had indicated that they'd gotten PM's indicating Joe wanted to work with the elims, and there wasn't much indication he was doing the same in the other direction (apart from his earlier post in the thread calling for all neutrals to aid the village, which seemed to just be misdirection at that point). If nothing else, the votes will have reminded the neutrals that they have to be neutral, (or have to be sneaky about being on the elim-team), because they can still be lynched if they appear to be going all-in on the elim-side. I don't expect them to be all-in on the village side, but they shouldn't be surprised to be brought up for the lynch if they appear to be aiding the elims far more than they are aiding the village.

Edit: Also @Straw, at what point did it turn into alienating the neutrals (plural)? I'd never expressed any desire to lynch Orlok, for example?

@BrightnessRadiant, you are right that I warned against possible attempts by the parole officer to influence the vote earlier, bit I also explained later why, at the point I made my vote on Joe, I believed it was actually the best play. Joe seemed to want to join the elims full-time, and the only serious votes had been against STINK and straw, neither of which seemed particularly suspicious to me at the the time. I don't expect I'll go after Joe next cycle, however, as by now there should be enough thread content to generate some actual suspicions.

Edited by randuir
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Amanuensis

Amanuensis

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, randuir said:
 

Okay, I'm going to the thread right now, but you people managed to add 10 pages while I was asleep+busy with an exam. There's a couple of things I'd like to comment on right now (apologies if this has been brought up later in the thread).

First of all, several people are accusing me of 'alienating' the neutrals. The thing is, I don't consider a neutral running around asking for an elim to contact him so that they can work together a neutral, exactly. Maybe Joe cleared all of that up at some point, but when I made my vote two people had indicated that they'd gotten PM's indicating Joe wanted to work with the elims, and there wasn't much indication he was doing the same in the other direction (apart from his earlier post in the thread calling for all neutrals to aid the village, which seemed to just be misdirection at that point). If nothing else, the votes will have reminded the neutrals that they have to be neutral, (or have to be sneaky about being on the elim-team), because they can still be lynched if they appear to be going all-in on the elim-side. I don't expect them to be all-in on the village side, but they shouldn't be surprised to be brought up for the lynch if they appear to be aiding the elims far more than they are aiding the village.

@BrightnessRadiant, you are right that I warned against possible attempts by the parole officer to influence the vote earlier, bit I also explained later why, at the point I made my vote on Joe, I believed it was actually the best play. Joe seemed to want to join the elims full-time, and the only serious votes had been against STINK and straw, neither of which seemed particularly suspicious to me at the the time. I don't expect I'll go after Joe next cycle, however, as by now there should be enough thread content to generate some actual suspicions.

Sorry for my part in it. At least I saved your life? :P

Still haven't slept yet. Probably should, considering I have a drill in... 5 hours.

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Amanuensis

Amanuensis

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, The Flash said:

Oh sorry for not answering you last night. I had already gone to bed lol. I'll articulate my reasons and everythings in a few hours when I make my "post of suspicions". 

No problem. Looking forward to it.

Just now, Straw said:

*is waiting for some discussion to happen*

Ton happened the previous turn. Maybe write some observations? Discussion is a two way street

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Orlok Tsubodai

Orlok Tsubodai

Posted
Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, randuir said:

Okay, I'm going to the thread right now, but you people managed to add 10 pages while I was asleep+busy with an exam. There's a couple of things I'd like to comment on right now (apologies if this has been brought up later in the thread).

First of all, several people are accusing me of 'alienating' the neutrals. The thing is, I don't consider a neutral running around asking for an elim to contact him so that they can work together a neutral, exactly. Maybe Joe cleared all of that up at some point, but when I made my vote two people had indicated that they'd gotten PM's indicating Joe wanted to work with the elims, and there wasn't much indication he was doing the same in the other direction (apart from his earlier post in the thread calling for all neutrals to aid the village, which seemed to just be misdirection at that point). If nothing else, the votes will have reminded the neutrals that they have to be neutral, (or have to be sneaky about being on the elim-team), because they can still be lynched if they appear to be going all-in on the elim-side. I don't expect them to be all-in on the village side, but they shouldn't be surprised to be brought up for the lynch if they appear to be aiding the elims far more than they are aiding the village.

Edit: Also @Straw, at what point did it turn into alienating the neutrals (plural)? I'd never expressed any desire to lynch Orlok, for example?

Emphasis mine.

Randuir, as neutral players, I'm sure you recognise that we are not villagers. We shouldn't just be helping the village - we should be walking the middle line, and aiding both sides. Joe tried to contact the eliminators in order to work with them. 

1) I'm not sure this is "going all-in on the elim side", or "aiding the skins far more than... aiding the village"

2) Recognising that we have to walk the middle line, do you really think it's unreasonable to try to make contact with the eliminators? How to you propose we work with both sides, and pursue our win conditions, if we do not have contact with the eliminators? Again, we're not villagers. I've said to a number of people, and I'll say it again here, that I would like to make contact with the eliminator team. I certainly don't intend to become an eliminator in all but name, Randuir, but it would be exceptionally useful to get constant PMs organised with Eponine, for example.

On the second point I've bolded, you  made the following argument yesterday:

Quote

The goal of convict!joe, as well as several other Neutrals, is to ensure that specific people survive till the end of the game. The quickest way for the game to end is if the village plays a perfect game and manages to lynch an elim (nearly) every cycle. The second quickest way for the game to end is if the village makes a lot of mistakes, doesn't get any elims, and the elims win by having a majority. For this second win-condition, every living 'survivalist' will ensure that this moment occurs sooner, as it is in their interest to end the game as soon as possible. Furthermore, the elims can guarantee immunity from the elim kills to the neutrals, while the village can't completely guarantee immunity to the lynch, unless someone can prove his neutral role(which, with the exception of the thief, is not possible this game, I believe).

So, the village would benefit from a dead Joe as it removes a potential elim vote from the end-of-game hammer if it comes down to it, thereby delaying said hammer for a cycle.

Emphasis mine.

Randuir, the above argument is general, and applies to myself, Cosette, Eponine, a lesser extent to the thief. The pretext upon which you tried to lynch Joe could be used to lynch any of the rest of us, and the precedent you seemed to be setting that you wished to lynch us on this bases was alienating.

I would also point out that this post can be read simultaneously as a pitch to the neutral players by an eliminator, highlighting the benefits of an arrangement, whilst simultaneously creating village antipathy towards neutral players generally.

Edited by OrlokTsubodai
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Stick.

Stick.

Posted
Posted (edited)

Last turn was crazy, catching up with 6 pages+throbbing head+3 mins left+phone ran out of charge+scrambling to get my tablet played a part in why I didn't really give an explanation for sayin I'd vote Rand over Straw or Yitzi. It was mostly [apart from the vote on joe] because I thought figuring out Rand's alignment would give us more useful info than the others. And like, I wasn't that suspicious of Yitzi, but well...Could we have a seeker scan him tonight? Straw's lynch would've given us like zero info, whether he flipped elim or village. I guess it would make me a bit wary about Yitzi; he had subtly defended Straw last cycle, iirc. But yeah. Rand alignment wouldve made me certain of what to think of Aman, for exmple, though I'm leaning village rn. And he expressed suspicion on Straw too, I think, so we couldve gotten something out of that? Hm. I should probably read Rand's elim game, I think. LG30, was it?

edit: nvmd about the seeker thing, just realised that the seekers scan only what metals, if any, one has burnt, not alignments so...

Edited by _Stick_
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DeTess

DeTess

Posted
Posted

Okay, I'm caught up, more or less (I haven't done a full analysis style reading yet, but I more or less know what everyone has said now).

3 minutes ago, OrlokTsubodai said:

Emphasis mine.

Randuir, the above argument is general, and applies to myself, Cosette, Eponine, a lesser extent to the thief. The pretext upon which you tried to lynch Joe could be used to lynch any of the rest of us, and the precedent you seemed to be setting that you wished to lynch us on this bases was alienating.

I would also point out that this post can be read simultaneously as a pitch to the neutral players by an eliminator, highlighting the benefits of an arrangement, whilst simultaneously creating village antipathy towards neutral players generally.

. 

yes, I do understand now how that comment would indeed be seen as aimed at all of you. I'd written it up as explaining why I thought lynching Joe specifically would be a good idea at the time, and hadn't had any intention of expanding it to justify lynches on the rest of you unless I was given a particularly good reason to do so. 

Regarding the possibility of the comment actually being an elim-pitch, I'd say this would have been a reasonable suspicion, if Joe was the only Neutral that had revealed himself. However, at that point you'd already announced yourself as well, and I believe STINK had claimed neutral by that point, so why would elim!randuir take the risk of putting this in the thread, when a single group PM would have gotten the same info across? If elim!randuir thought you where faking the neutral role-claim, it could have even been dressed up in such a way as to appear to be the worry of a villager ("what would you do if this situation occured...").

18 minutes ago, OrlokTsubodai said:

Emphasis mine.

Randuir, as neutral players, I'm sure you recognise that we are not villagers. We shouldn't just be helping the village - we should be walking the middle line, and aiding both sides. Joe tried to contact the eliminators in order to work with them. 

1) I'm not sure this is "going all-in on the elim side", or "aiding the skins far more than... aiding the village"

2) Recognising that we have to walk the middle line, do you really think it's unreasonable to try to make contact with the eliminators? How to you propose we work with both sides, and pursue our win conditions, if we do not have contact with the eliminators? Again, we're not villagers. I've said to a number of people, and I'll say it again here, that I would like to make contact with the eliminator team. I certainly don't intend to become an eliminator in all but name, Randuir, but it would be exceptionally useful to get constant PMs organised with Eponine, for example.

I'll be honest, I'd never even gotten around to considering that it was just an attempt to make contact with the elims to be able to actually be properly neutral. This isn't a particularly good excuse, but it is the truth. If I had gotten around to considering it, I would have PM'd Joe first to get a better understanding of his intentions. This is probably not the answer you wanted to hear, but it is hard to come up with arguments for my stance when I overlooked something like this. So, I guess, apologies to Joe for jumping the gun and not properly considering the options.

TL;DR: some mistakes where made. Mostly by me.

Some other things I wanted to mention:

One comment from the other thread was on my suggestion that a thug consider letting himself being taken out by the lynch under specific circumstances. If I had been a thug, then I would have seriously considering revoking my self-protection during the day-cycle, because living through the hit could very easily have resulted in another big lynch attempt against me next cycle, which would have just ended up fully wasting two cycles worth of lynches (this is not a role-claim btw. (or is it :ph34r:)).

One last thing I'd like to say right now is a thanks to @Amanuensis. He's been mostly right about my motivations and reasons for doing what I did, and I suspect without his endorsement I probably would have been lynched. If people do decide to buy into Wilson's 'major tin-foil', I suggest hitting me, not Aman.

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Yitzi2

Yitzi2

Posted
Posted (edited)

To address some of what was said about me in the previous cycle that I wasn't able to address there due to sleep:

-I am American, not European.  New York, in particular.

-I never definitively state that someone is villager or elim, except as the result of an alignment detection (of which there are none in this game).  If I'm villager, I can't know for certain and don't want to inadvertently lie, and doing it only when I'm elim would of course be a huge tell.

-I would sometimes state that someone is probably a villager, but I wouldn't state that about STINK since I really have no way of knowing that either.  I just feel that making a lot of PMs is not a mark of elim-hood, and could potentially be good for the village if they lead to productive discussion.

-I made some unusual statements that many feel to be poor advice; if you look at my other games, this is not exactly unusual for me.

-I did change my mind regarding Rand was purely from the arguments that other people posted, but then my suspicion that he might be an elim was also based on what other people said in that regard.  The only things I concluded on my own about Rand (and which I still maintain) are that (a) he's probably the PO, and (b) Having a PO who has yet to fulfill his goals can be dangerous for the village in the late game, since he can cooperate with the elims to lynch the Convict in a LOL situation.  (Conversely, other neutrals are probably going to fulfill their goals anyway if it's down to the wire, since the village and elims will be too busy trying to knock out each other to target them; the PO is the only one for whom survival is not enough.)

EDIT: Also, @STINK, do you mind if I tell everybody the basic content of the PM that you referenced?

Edited by Yitzi2
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StrikerEZ

StrikerEZ

Posted
Posted

Well, that was certainly interesting. Sadly, I didn't get my player analysis post written out at all because I went to sleep before the cycle ended. And I managed to forget to vote. Whoops. I'll actually go an de do the analysis later. I need to catch up with all my notifications and stuff. But I really don't like how Jondesu was lynched last minute. That just felt really off to me, going back and rereading it.

 

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Steeldancer

Steeldancer

Posted
Posted (edited)
  1. Jay (The Flash) - is village and awesome. Promising to be more active now that LG34 is over! Wishes he was a steelrunner. 
  2. (Straw) neutral read. Not totally sure what to think, but has been helpful, and reasonable. 
  3. Albin Brodeur (Jondesu) - dead, last minute, which also bothers me. 
  4. Siv (Cloudjumper) - cares about my activity! ♡ also did analysis, seems to be trying to be helpful. 
  5. Luigi (Shqueeves) - inactive
  6. Edmond Dantès (asterion137) - thoughtful, seems to be trying to be helpful. But also getting a gut elim read, nothing solid to back it up with, so I will be keeping an eye on. 
  7. Carcer (Paranoid King) - relatively inactive, but getting a mild village read. 
  8. Dariend Castel (StrikerEZ) - seems to be helpful, but not quite anything but a neutral read. 
  9. Roger Elariel (Elenion) - seems to be helpful, village read. Let's team up again, shall we? I need a new team to take down these elims. 
  10. Alonine (BrightnessRadiant) - helpful. Really hoping she'll team up with me. Flash buddies! I want to be on the same team for once :P village read, but a little seed of wariness. 
  11. Alrin (Arinian) seems to be extremely helpful. Village read. 
  12. Aimes (Araris Valerian) - neutral read. Yet again, the guy is invisible. And you still havent told me how you do it. 
  13. Bartolomeus Teki (randuir) - thinks a lot. Seems to be helpful, but I still don't fully trust him. 
  14. Darius Castel (Ecthelion III) - relatively inactive.
  15. Keera Wilde (little Wilson) -your profile picture always makes me trust you. But I'm getting village vibes here too. (Or from the nutella. Yum) 
  16. Siena Mattel (Seonid) - makes important comments on strategy of particular players. I trust him, mild village vibe. 
  17. Lukas Fehrweight (Drake Marshall) elim vibe. Seems to be altering the conversation in slight ways... which makes me suspicious. 
  18. Altea Meza (Crimsn-Wolf) -  Village vibe, seems to be going with the quiet strategy again. Last time we were elims together. Hope we're both village this time. 
  19. Jack (A Joe in the Bush) claims Valjean. However I trust him to help me out, if not help the village exclusively. 
  20. Dandi (_Stick_) seems to be confused like me. I trust stick, village vibe. 
  21. Kliff (TheMightyLopen) - relatively quiet, but I hope he's village. Mild village vibe. 
  22. Garshin (Yitzi2) - maybe it's from trusting you in LG34, but I'm getting a mild elim read. Nothing conclusive. 
  23. Rorik (Dalinar Kholin) inactive. 
  24. Mykal (Amanuensis) - strongest village read. Possibly a drop bear. 
  25. Phil (STINK) - claims neutral. The perpetrator of most of those PMs. 
  26. Julie (Arraenae) elim read. I'm most suspicious of her. Not entirely sure what about her posts give me this vibe, but it's not a village or neutral vibe. 
  27. Locke Tekiel (OrlokTsubodai) claims pauper noble. Neutral read. Hoping you'll help us villagers out. 
  28. Suterna (Elbereth) inactive. 
Edited by The Flash
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