Interludes 1 / 2

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

So Felt is from Era 1 Scadrial, which was hundreds of years before Stormlight part 1. (We know this because I'm sure I've read somewhere that Wax and Wayne is set between the halves of Stormlight and that is hundreds of years post Catacendre. 

How has he lived so long? Has Brandon done and WoB about this? Because Demoux is also an Era 1 lad who is worldhopping for the 17th Shard hundreds of years later and hasn't aged much in that time. 

 

[Nesh he/him]

1 minute ago, Display-Names-Are-Stupid said:

So Felt is from Era 1 Scadrial, which was hundreds of years before Stormlight part 1. (We know this because I'm sure I've read somewhere that Wax and Wayne is set between the halves of Stormlight and that is hundreds of years post Catacendre. 

How has he lived so long? Has Brandon done and WoB about this? Because Demoux is also an Era 1 lad who is worldhopping for the 17th Shard hundreds of years later and hasn't aged much in that time. 

 

Worldhoppers have some method of time dilation we aren't privy to at this time.

[+robardin he/him]

1 minute ago, Display-Names-Are-Stupid said:

So Felt is from Era 1 Scadrial, which was hundreds of years before Stormlight part 1. (We know this because I'm sure I've read somewhere that Wax and Wayne is set between the halves of Stormlight and that is hundreds of years post Catacendre. 

How has he lived so long? Has Brandon done and WoB about this? Because Demoux is also an Era 1 lad who is worldhopping for the 17th Shard hundreds of years later and hasn't aged much in that time. 

Diet, exercise, and eight hours of sleep a night!

He has definitely been asked this, and has definitely avoided giving a clear answer other than to say "there are several different ways worldhoppers have lived across eras" (Khriss, Demoux/Felt, etc.).

[Darvys]

Some much needed depth added to Odium, this new perspective reinforces my distaste for the theory that Dalinar would pick up a merged "War" shard, the Blackthorn has only reflected the worst of what this shard can be and as a Bondsmith seems too far removed from its essence.

Kaladin while seemingly a far better fit is being set up to get entangled with older forces to unforeseeable ends, so I guess I'd prefer that we stick with Taravangian all the way through, maybe watch him learn to reinterpret the shard's intent, I still believe the focus that RoW put on Bravery specifically, and most curiously through Adin's pov, will be relevant in the future.

Still can't bring myself to care about the Ghostblood storyline on Roshar though, i'll be glad if it's ditched after this book.

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

27 minutes ago, Nesh said:

Worldhoppers have some method of time dilation we aren't privy to at this time.

Rats, was hoping something had been revealed that I might have missed. I wonder what the limitations of it are, and if we will see people from as far back as Era 1 and Kriss in the Space Age. 

Only time will tell I guess! 

[Grailmoth]

51 minutes ago, Display-Names-Are-Stupid said:

So Felt is from Era 1 Scadrial, which was hundreds of years before Stormlight part 1. (We know this because I'm sure I've read somewhere that Wax and Wayne is set between the halves of Stormlight and that is hundreds of years post Catacendre. 

How has he lived so long? Has Brandon done and WoB about this? Because Demoux is also an Era 1 lad who is worldhopping for the 17th Shard hundreds of years later and hasn't aged much in that time. 

 

Another possible explanation is that he has enough breath to become immortal. I believe the fifth heightening gives this (2000 breaths), and it appears Felt is an awakener.

Edited September 16, 2024 by Grailmoth
removing word that didn't make sense

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

Some much needed depth added to Odium, this new perspective reinforces my distaste for the theory that Dalinar would pick up a merged "War" shard, the Blackthorn has only reflected the worst of what this shard can be and as a Bondsmith seems too far removed from its essence.

Kaladin while seemingly a far better fit is being set up to get entangled with older forces to unforeseeable ends, so I guess I'd prefer that we stick with Taravangian all the way through, maybe watch him learn to reinterpret the shard's intent, I still believe the focus that RoW put on Bravery specifically, and most curiously through Adin's pov, will be relevant in the future.

Still can't bring myself to care about the Ghostblood storyline on Roshar though, i'll be glad if it's ditched after this book.

I always thought it’d be interesting for todium to bring in Dalinar as a sort of mediator between him and the cosmere that would be a good end for him not as odium but as advisor to odium 

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

Ala out-lied a liespren. What an actress. And also holy cow how good of a spy would a seon be?! 

I wonder how Ishar helped Kalak with the madness. Did he take some of it on himself? I think this death rattle isn't Taln, it's Ishar! 

Quote

The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me.

 

Taravangian Odium Interlude is bonkers. The Shard is already affecting him even as he seems to want to resist. I loved how this shows it as Odium feeling all of the suffering out there and this fueling his divine wrath, it helps it make sense as a portion of Adonalsium rather than just like, straight evil. He reminds me a lot of Thanos - on a misguided quest to save the universe in a really wrong way.

I feel like this Interlude probably has a lot of shard clues hidden in it. Especially this part:

Quote

Yes, it would be bad. He could see all the permutations of time, as well as attempts by other Shards like himself to do this very thing.

Learning from previous shards eh? Let's see what we can learn too:

Quote

By directly intervening on such a granular level, he risked creating a society where no one learned, and where civilization did not progress.

Sounds a bit like Harmony's predicament. The last bit there is definitely Preservation at least.

Quote

By supernaturally forbidding warlords, he would also stifle scientists and artists.

Scientists and artists sounds a bit like virtuosity, but this sentence as a whole also sounds potentially like the combo of Honor + Cultivation (science) and Honor + Odium (war) interactions on Roshar. 

Quote

By removing the capacity for violence, he would also remove the capacity for mercy

Well this might be a hint to why Harmony in the letter says "Mercy worries me." I wonder if that world must be extremely violent...

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

5 minutes ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

I wonder how Ishar helped Kalak with the madness. Did he take some of it on himself? I think this death rattle isn't Taln, it's Ishar! 

That would explain a few things, though then why do other Heralds claim that Ishar is the sanest?

6 minutes ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

Scientists and artists sounds a bit like virtuosity, but this sentence as a whole also sounds potentially like the combo of Honor + Cultivation (science) and Honor + Odium (war) interactions on Roshar. 

I have to disagree, I think that it references Threnody. There's no conflict there due to the Shades, you can't spill blood or kindle flame without setting them off, and their technology took a huge backslide when they escaped to the Forests of Hell, even gunpowder has been reduced to stories and no one can actually use it due to it counting as flame.

 

9 minutes ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

Well this might be a hint to why Harmony in the letter says "Mercy worries me." I wonder if that world must be extremely violent...

That would certainly be worrisome, just brainwashing everyone into never harming anyone else. Sounds even more terrifying then just 'Mercy-killing' everyone.

[TheOtherDave]

2 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

That would explain a few things, though then why do other Heralds claim that Ishar is the sanest?

Maybe he's so crazy he looped back around to sanity?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

3 minutes ago, TheOtherDave said:

Maybe he's so crazy he looped back around to sanity?

Well he's looped back at least once. 

Actually, I just had a thought. Kalak said in the Prologue that he felt 'worse', and eventually even Nale admitted his madness had gotten worse as well, so what if Ishar has been holding back less and less of the madness as the True Desolation approached?

[Confused]

You folks bring up so many interesting ideas. I learn as much from you as the reading. I’ll try to organize my thoughts into sections as I spin this stuff into a recognizable tapestry. So much to say, so little attention span to say it in...

First, my weekly limerick summary of the new chapters:

Poor Kalak discovers too late 

The Ghostbloods have just sealed his fate.

Two Shards then converse,

Though one is perverse - 

TOd's need for control will not sate.

Free Will

Brandon continues to highlight this major theme in these chapters. Examples:

·     Ala the seon lies. Kalak says, “He, more than any, should have realized the potential for spren to turn against you.” Uncoerced betrayal is an act of free will. (I wonder what spren first betrayed him and how?) This sub-theme of Investiture acting with free will continues the scenes of Gavilar’s shock that the Stormfather could lie and the Oathgate spren’s enlightenment.

FWIW, I believe Brandon thinks Honor can be the antithesis of freedom:

Quote

And so, unilaterally destroying those who turn against him is actually not an Odium thing. It's more an Honor thing than it would be an Odium thing.

Source.

·       Free will is the subject of Cultivation and Odium’s debate. More on that later...

·       The Ghostbloods are an undisciplined bunch who individually act with free will, often with their own interests in mind. Iyatil and Mraize seem to view assassination as a legitimate means of succession. Betrayal is part of their culture. How can anyone be sure who Ala reports to? Maybe to Felt, maybe to Kelsier, maybe to Fjorden’s Wyrn on Sel, sent to scout other planets to dominate through Shu-Dereth.

·       Even damaged Kalak shows free will, and I confidently predict he will join the Ghostbloods. He sounds like Kelsier’s alter ego:

Quote

He’d survived so, so many things.... Even after all this time, he didn’t want to die.

These days he felt only panic, indecision, and a crushing darkness... But he’d survived. He’d survived.

Will Kalak now join Shallan and Adolin’s expedition to the Spiritual Realm? Will Felt, Iyatil, and Mraize accompany them? Ooooh... Let’s hope Fortune guides our young marrieds.

Taravangian’s Odium

To ongoing ridicule, I’ve argued for almost 10 years that Odium is the Shard of Broken Connections. Thank you, Brandon, for giving me some more evidence.

Odium is the Broken One, the Divided One, because of the COMPLETE SEPARATION OF HIS RIGHT BRAIN FROM HIS LEFT: “Odium was a person divided. One side thinking, the other feeling.” This “broken Connection” is the problem, not Cultivation’s boon/curse. In humans, bands of nerves and fiber connect the right and left sides of the brain. While not fully true, the left side associates with logical, analytical, and intellectual traits, and the right side associates with emotional and creative traits.

Odium cannot access both at the same time. Instead, he must switch back and forth. He controls this switch; it’s not arbitrary, like the boon/curse was: “The logical side of him asserted control, shoving down the side that simply wanted to rage.”

This broken Connection means Odium has trouble with self-regulation. Logic and passion can never temper one another at the same time. Like a sailing boat, Odium must tack between these conflicting winds and never point straight toward his goal. This requires a strong and steady hand on the rudder. Rayse was unequal to the task. Hoid thinks Rayse was a fool, presumably the kind who can’t control his emotions. Taravangian is not such a fool. I agree with @CognitiveShadow’s explanation of the boon/curse and how it shaped Taravangian to hold the Odium Shard:

19 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

I think that Cultivation's gift helped to train Taravangian on how to manage an intense conflict of emotions and logic, especially when there is powerful imbalance between the two. I don't think there is still any lingering magical impact or active effect on Taravangian from that boon/curse, but I do think it helped change who he was over time as a mortal and wired him to process things certain ways.

Hide your eyes if you’re tired of this, but I continue to believe Odium manipulates emotions by breaking/restoring both the Connections that directly affect emotions (right side of brain) and the Connections that constitute one’s culturally imposed conscience (left side of brain). Turning off the conscience while turning on rage can be pretty effective in war. An army of berserkers...

Odium and Cultivation’s Conversation

My vote for the best Interlude ever! A conversation between Shards! I love it! The Life Shard, purveyor of a putative Garden of Eden, trying to teach her younger, hyper-emotional colleague not to bite the apple!

“Fully Given”

Quote

“You are forbidden,” Cultivation said, “from taking direct action against any who are not fully given to you. [Emphasis added.]”

At minimum, I think “fully given” means a person has exclusively accepted Odium’s Investiture. Because this is a promise made to Honor (and Cultivation), I suspect the person must accept Odium voluntarily. But IMO that’s less significant than the exclusivity. Here’s why.

WaT’s cover highlights the phrase, “Honor is not dead...so long as he lives in the hearts of men!” This echoes an earlier WoR quote. On that book's last page, Wit says to Jasnah, “You’ll find God in the same place you’re going to find salvation from this mess…Inside the hearts of men.” Well...if Honor lives in the hearts of men, men can never be “fully given” to Odium. Men (“people” – just using Brandon’s word) at some point may be faced with the choice of whether to join Odium’s plan of cosmere conquest. But Odium can’t take any direct action against them if they refuse. Hmmm...

Presumably that calculus applies to any who refuse to enlist with Odium. Listeners, Leshwi and her supporters, Sja-anat and the enlightened spren, certainly Radiants. What happens when Odium looks off-world for human supporters Invested by their resident Shards? Must they become Fused for him to control them? I think the “fully given” statement so early in the book, when compared with the repeated and prominent “Honor lives” quote, must have plot significance.

“Outside Attack”

Odium cannot break the “fully given” promise:

Quote

“In so doing, you would be vulnerable to outside attack,” she said. “The powers bind us to our promises, particularly those made and sealed with a formal oath.”

What is an “outside attack”? Must the attack come only from another Shard? Nightblood destroyed Rayse but can’t destroy/consume a full Shard. But can Nightblood cause Shard One enough damage for Shard Two to finish Shard One? Can a series of magic users combine their powers and add to Nightblood’s damage (without exposing themselves to Nightblood)? Will future powerful machines be able to do this? Roshar’s native gods? Can you imagine Autonomy’s avatars swarming another Shard like piranhas, tearing chunks away?

Shard Philosophy, Politics, and Theology

This topic deserves its own thread, especially during the U.S. political season. Brandon seems to use Taravangian as his political philosophy weathervane. First his conversations with Dalinar. Now this one. They both end the same way: Taravangian follows his own path. He was willing to destroy Roshar just to save Kharbranth. What will he do to purge the cosmere of its pain and suffering?

The Shard dialectic might be epitomized as “Influence vs. Control.” Cultivation favors free will. She will nudge here and there, prune this one or that one (as she did with Dalinar’s memories and Lift’s digestive system), but we have not seen her take unilateral direct, decisive action. To conquer the cosmere, Todium might be willing to act without limits except as bound by his Shardic promises. He wouldn’t care that his control would curtail mortal creativity as long as he reduces the cosmere’s pain. Cultivation fears culture and society would languish without the spurs of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse: Conquest, War, Famine, and Death. She wants to manage suffering, not eliminate it.

Ishar

He assumed the pain of the other Heralds? Who does that sound like?

I can already hear Kal’s therapy session with Ishar, straight out of Good Will Hunting: “It wasn’t your fault. It wasn’t your fault. It wasn’t your fault.” Say it six more times...

Responses to Random Comments

21 hours ago, therunner said:

Taravangian was always all passion, when it came to his motivations.

Aren’t we all? Logic is for after-the-fact rationalization and planning.

19 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

You mean he might bond the Wind and become a new kind of bondsmith in some way? I think the current consensus is that the Wind is an old spren of Adonalsium that has not been 'enlightened/corrupted' the way others may have been (Sibling, Stormfather, Unmade, etc.?).

Consensus may say Wind is “an old spren,” but I think Wind is one of Roshar’s native gods, the Eila Stele’s “spren, stone, and wind.” Stone and Wind speak directly to mortals without the intermediation of a spren. Unless Syl dies, and I don’t think she will, Kal is already bonded.

If Kal becomes the Knight of Wind, will Rock become the Knight of Stone?

*     *     *     *     *

If nothing new occurs to me, until next week’s reading. All the best! C.

Edited September 17, 2024 by Confused
Added limerick.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

10 hours ago, robardin said:

Well the reverse also boggles the imagination.

That they would commission a Big Ask of Shallan, such that they'd "tell her everything" after she completed it, and also given a very rare, offworld Invested object (the seon in a box), for a plan with multiple stages, each predicted ("you'll know what to do when you find him" / "he's the Herald KALAK?" / "Yep, toldja, you would know what to do, and that was to call me")...

The seon would have to stay with the Radiants anyway. It serves as a neigh perfect spy, who inadvertedly also makes - ahem - home movies. Hence if the Raysium dagger she was given is fake, what do they lose? Shallan herself. An agent who is not exactly stable and known to be involved with the Ghostbloods. Do you really think they would dare depend on her? She would be useful as a spy, but with Ala inserted that benefit becomes largely moot.

 

10 hours ago, robardin said:

Well the reverse also boggles the imagination.

That they would commission a Big Ask of Shallan, such that they'd "tell her everything" after she completed it, and also given a very rare, offworld Invested object (the seon in a box), for a plan with multiple stages, each predicted ("you'll know what to do when you find him" / "he's the Herald KALAK?" / "Yep, toldja, you would know what to do, and that was to call me")...

And then the final stage, "push the button and reveal this knife, that will capture him in the gemstone so our master Thaidakar can learn from him"... Was a blind ruse, meant to give Felt and Ala the big assist in the operation?

OK let's say the whole thing was SUPPOSED to scare Kalak and not kill him, which could be plausible. The implausible part is not cluing in a knife-wielding Shallan to that effect, and in fact straight up telling her the opposite.

If the dagger is fake, there are three possibilities

1. She fails. That means:
   - the relations between Spren and Radiants are sabotaged
   - Kalak is scared, perhaps up to the point of running away or making a deal
   - Ala is still inserted as a spy
2. She conventionally kills Kalak. He returns from Braize:
   - Kalak is scared, perhaps up to the point of running away or making a deal
   - Ala is still inserted as a spy
   - the relations between Spren and Radiants are sabotaged
   - Kalak is now somewhere on Roshar without Honorspren guarding him
3. She refuses
   - Ala is still inserted as a spy
   - They know she is unreliable

It seems to me that they in fact hoped that Shallan would die. Kalak still is a Herald guarded by Honorspren. Shallan has no Shardblade in Shadesmar. They knew she would have run out of Stormlight by then. All she has in her favor is surprise. In combat between her and Kalak I would bet on Kalak.
If the relations between spren and men are shattered, either side will need new allies.

The leadership of the Radiant's would also be shaken. And so on. Any outcome is an advantage to the Ghostbloods, unless they discover that Ala is a double agent.

10 hours ago, robardin said:

Because why then would her orders, meant to induct Shallan fully into the Ghostbloods (which Mraize, by all accounts, genuinely wanted and expected to happen), be to do exactly that? And her telling Mraize that she hadn't done so, been met with anger and disappointment?

I am making two assumptions

1. The Ghostbloods know what happens if you store a Herald in a gem
2. If you risk a Seon, Kelsier has to approve it

I think neither assumption is unreasonable. Seons talk to Kelsier anyway. The Ghostbloods have good arcanists and have a source of Connection to study.

I doubt Kelsier would assume that they can subvert a human who is stationed permanently with Hoid and Jasnah. Too risky. They are going to investigate sooner or later how exactly Shallan came into contact with the Ghostbloods. In fact they may already have done so and sending Shallan away has had multiple reasons.
Mraize is telling the truth as far as he knows. That plan comes from Kelsier.

[BinarySecond]

18 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

It seems like Cultivations adjustments are working, in that he is better able to control, but it is leading to the same conclusion - that he must be the only god. 

I think it's going to be no gods. There can be no hoarding of power if the power itself cannot be held. Odium will self splinter like Virtuosity.

If the only thing you need to do to access the investiture is work hard and it'll happen then that may seems like a better alternative?

 

Edit:

I would say he would impart some large change before doing that. Possibly continuing with the original plan of splinter all other shards first.

Edited September 17, 2024 by BinarySecond

[CtrlAltDepressed]

4 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

I think it's going to be no gods. There can be no hoarding of power if the power itself cannot be held. Odium will self splinter like Virtuosity.

Taravangian's 'I can do better' and his whole monologue:

“There is a spectrum of choice that can be allowed,” he said. “No society can persist with complete freedom, and growth can happen within limits. I can make it so that free will exists to an acceptable degree, while also preventing famines.”

Tells me that he plans to rule the entire cosmere. Kill all the others and carefully keep all societies within limits to prevent suffering. 

[alder24]

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

A paranoid Herald left the only weapon that could kill him, as far as he knows, unsecured, so that Felt could find it

He locked it in his house, the most secure location in the Lasting Integrity Kalak can imagine. Of course he would have left it there.

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Felt happens to find the weapon in somebody else's house. In fact, why does he even look for it there?

He didn't happen to find it, he knew where it was (likely because he heard Shallan and Adolin talking about it) and searched for it there. 

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Felt dares enter a Herald's house without knowing for sure where the weapon that could kill the Herald, if that should become necessary, is

Yes, he dared to do that when Kalak wasn't at home - ideal time to search his place and find the dagger. Plus he can easily deal with Kalak via Awakening, so the dagger isn't even needed for protection.

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Didn't they? The Ghostbloods have advanced technology and science.

How would they know? Even Fused didn't fully understand what happened with Jezrien's soul and they still planned to capture Ash and Taln after conquering the Tower. Ghostbloods' tech and science won't help them if there are only 10 test subjects and only one of them was captured with the dagger. Only Fused could have disclosed this information to them and I highly doubt they did it if they themselves didn't know what happened. Even Kalak needed to investigate this further to know for sure that Jez died - and he felt it.

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They did not tell her how this thing works. She would believe that she really killed her victim.

They did, they talked about it. RoW ch 82:

Quote

“So you do want me to kill him,” she said.
“One cannot kill a Herald,” Mraize said. “They are immortal. Do not think of Kelek as a person. He is an ageless, eternal spren formed of Honor’s substance and will. He is as gravity or light. Force, not man.” 
[...]
“I want you,” he said, “to collect the soul of Kelek, also known as Restares. The knife will trap his essence in that gemstone.”

 

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

She would have learned at some point that she had assassinated a Herald. Very high up among the blasphemous crimes you can commit on Roshar.

She knew she's trying to collect Kalak's soul and she was still willing to do that - blasphemy had no impact on Shallan's decision.

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The gem stone would be charged. It would be quite bright and hard to conceal.

If only you could put that brightly glowing gemstone into a hidden compartment of the box from where you get it and carry it out of the Lasting Integrity without raising any suspicion. The same box that holds a brightly glowing Seon that's impossible to see from the outside. The box that nobody cared about when Shallan brought into the city.

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Shallan has known issues of mental health and is traumatized by killing somebody. There is no telling what she'd do after a murder, even less when she learns that she's killed a Herald.

Not like it's the first time she killed somebody. She killed Tyn and was fine, she killed several other people and was fine. For Ghostbloods it would be only a benefit. Shallan knew that once she stabs Kalak there is no turning back for her, she had to join Ghostbloods for good - Mraize knew that too.

Mraize was constantly pushing her more and more towards making this decision, he gave her more and more daring quests and fed her more and more tasty information. He was training her to be full Ghostbloods and Mraize enjoys the danger. He already knew how to treat Shallan's DID and was even using it to his advantage, manipulating all three of Shallan's persona.

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The Honorspren are not very likely to let the humans just leave after a Herald has been murdered

Well, they wouldn't have known about it until Shallan and others would have left, or even at all. The plan was for Shallan to impersonate Kalak at the trial and leave with them. RoW ch 82:

Quote

“Hmm…” Mraize said. “If only there were a way that someone—having locked away Kelek’s soul—could take his place. Wear his face. Pass judgment, vindicating your husband and commanding the honorspren to join the war again. If only we had sent a person capable of single-handedly turning the tide of this war through the use of a targeted illusion.”
[...]
"And after the trial, ‘Kelek’ could insist he has to visit Urithiru himself, leaving the spren completely ignorant of what you’ve done.”

 

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They are even less likely to let them go without thoroughly searching them

They let them IN without thoroughly searching them... Letting them go after Herald himself judged them worthy of Honorspren bonds and plans to go with them to Urithiru would be done with no questions asked. 

RoW ch 82 has many answers to problems you have with this dagger. 

The situation would be much, much worse for Ghostbloods if Shallan were to kill Kalak with the knife, but instead of capturing his soul, the dagger would just stab him. How would they explain to Shallan this? How would they regain Shallan's trust after she trusted them and they broke her trust like this? How would they capture Kalak later if his soul went to Braize, beyond their reach and worse into Fused hands? Mraize would have made a really bad decision if he were to not give Shallan the real dagger - and he wasn't expecting Shallan to turn against him, he was sure she will do as ordered, judging by his reaction in RoW ch 115:

Quote

. “Little knife,” the face said in Mraize’s voice. “I trust the deed has been done?”
“I did it,” Shallan said. “It hurt so much. But she is gone.”
“Excellent. That … She, little knife?”
“Veil and I are one now, Mraize,” Shallan said,
[...]
There was a long pause from Mraize. “Shallan,” he finally said, “we do not move against other Ghostbloods.”
“I’m not one of the Ghostbloods,” Shallan said. “None of us ever were, not fully. And now we are stepping away.”
“Don’t do this. Think of the cost.”
[...]
“You will never have your answers, Shallan.”
[...]
Mraize didn’t respond. The seon, imitating his face, hovered in place. Expressionless.
[...]
“This will not end well for you, Shallan,” Mraize said. “You make an enemy of the most powerful organization in all the cosmere.”
[...]
“Perhaps. Can you handle my master? Can you handle her master?”

Look at this? Is that what a person who predicted all of this looks like? That's a person who miscalculated and now desperately tries to convince Shallan to stay with them, because he knows that she knows too much and she will be a threat to Ghostbloods now. Mraize was outplayed and he knows this, he knows this so painfully that he even tried to threaten her with his master, like a kid whose sibling took their toy and he threatens to snitch on them to their mother. The dagger was real. 

 

 

15 hours ago, Display-Names-Are-Stupid said:

How has he lived so long? Has Brandon done and WoB about this? Because Demoux is also an Era 1 lad who is worldhopping for the 17th Shard hundreds of years later and hasn't aged much in that time. 

There is a common way for worldhoppers to slow down their aging:

Spoiler

Dirigible (paraphrased)

Did Demoux achieve immortality by manipulating his Connection age?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Demoux uses the same method as most of the Seventeenth Shard. That method slows aging by a lot, but doesn't stop it completely.

Arcanum Unbounded Fort Collins signing (Nov. 29, 2016)

[Belgarad]

It made me think that Taravangian will change Rayse's plan to become the sole god.  Rayse seemed to want to destroy the other Shards and be the sole remaining god as Odium.  Rayse didn't want to merge the other Shards because it would have altered his intent which could have possibly caused him to change his plan. 

If Taravangian is able to "keep one hand on the wheel" much better than any of the other Vessels due to Cultivation's meddling then he may be able to follow through on merging the shards, becoming a new Adonalsium.  At the very end he says he's not Odium, but Taravangian.  

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

23 hours ago, Darvys said:

Still can't bring myself to care about the Ghostblood storyline on Roshar though, i'll be glad if it's ditched after this book

I agree, and I fear that the opposite is true, it is tied too closely to the entire Cosmere story, and Sanderson's plans most likely for Mistborn Era 3

[king of nowhere]

how did we miss spotting felt as a ghostblood spy, anyway?

he's from skadrial. he worked closely with vin and elend. from there, it's a very small step to assume he could be loial to kelsier, maybe even a survivorist.

we got too used to seeing worldhoppers around in minor roles doing nothing special and thinking nothing of them. we shouldn't have dismissed him

[Michael Portz he/him]

38 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

how did we miss spotting felt as a ghostblood spy, anyway?

he's from skadrial. he worked closely with vin and elend. from there, it's a very small step to assume he could be loial to kelsier, maybe even a survivorist.

we got too used to seeing worldhoppers around in minor roles doing nothing special and thinking nothing of them. we shouldn't have dismissed him

Well, the Ghostbloods are mostly pictured as "evil", Felt felt (pun intended) always like a "good guy". Hard to reconcile that without seriously trying.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

43 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

how did we miss spotting felt as a ghostblood spy, anyway?

Mostly because Brandon told us point blank "he's not a secret agent" lol. Apparently we never considered he could still be an unsecret agent!

[Ookla she/her]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Mostly because Brandon told us point blank "he's not a secret agent" lol. Apparently we never considered he could still be an unsecret agent!

Ooh, tricksy wording! Clever of him, to throw is off with semantics. 

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, Michael Portz said:

Well, the Ghostbloods are mostly pictured as "evil", Felt felt (pun intended) always like a "good guy". Hard to reconcile that without seriously trying.

ghostbloods are mostly pictures as evil on roshar. on scadrial, in the lost metal, they are the good guys.

[Wyndle88 he/him]

Random thought...

 

We see Taravangian becoming Odium. In letters between Frost and Wit, we see frost mention 'Rayse being a bad person doesn't matter as the Intent of shard far outweighs the mind of the Vessel holding it long term. The greatest danger is when a crafty mind possess the power of a Shard. 

This situation is the very thing happening now. As Mr. T picked up Odium Shard, the power of the shard is being manipulated by a very crafty mind and the power would be more controlled by the mind in the starting days.

So this is exactly the time to control the Shard of Odium by other shards if they were to ever act in opposition to Odium. 

With Frost being unworried about Rayse we need to consider communication of plans between the two Dragons Frost and Cultivation. 

We also know from book readings that in the future of Cosmere one faction in space age is going to be Roshar. 

Taravangian' mind wants to end suffering of Roshar and wants to ideally save everyone on it and has the arrogance to assume to make it possible even after gaining the Shard. 

We also see not everyone can pick up on the change in Vessel of Odium instinctively even if they are highly Invested like Hoid. 

1. Adonalsium himself created primordial Sprens on Roshar along with Dawnsingers.

2. These spren include spren of Wind and Storms. This storm Spren did not have sentience and did not have Stormlight giving ability.

3. Adonalsium shatters and shards of Honor and Cultivation settles on Roshar. Dawnsingers accept them as Gods. 

4. At a later time Odium arrives in the Rosharan system probably chasing Wit who was known by the Heralds ( original occupants of Ashyn) by a different name.

 

5. Ashyn is destroyed and humans reach Roshar and is given the land of Shin by Dawnsingers.

 

6. Humans has a population boom and starts taking more land. With more souls praying to them as Gods, Honor and Cultivation becomes the 'Gods' of humans. 

7. Thus a God who reached later in Roshar became the God of the original population of Dawnsingers manipulating the passion of betrayal from Honor and Cultivation who was more benevolent to humans like they themselves align more with.

8. Heralds are created and Honorblades( Honor's splinters) too. Multiple desolations happen and finally just before Honor's vessel died, the cognitive shadow of Tanavast merged with Stormfather.

9. When multiple POV characters get caught in the highstorm, they see a Face who is the Stormfather and another being of massive proportion walking inside the storm

10. Odium would certainly win the Contest of Champions. Dalinar would get hold of all the Honorblades, manifest Tanavast as a Blade and Unite it with all Honorblades. 

11. But Odiums champion would be Adolin and Dalinar would loose that fight. 

12. Adolin will take the blade of Honor. Will become basically King of all Roshar henceforth wielding both the powers of Odium and Honor (WAR?). His dad Dalinar would be his best general Conquering/ Campaigning in the name of Odium & Cultivation throughout Cosmere. 

Cultivation with the power of Odium (with the crafty mind of Taranvangian harnessing its powers before the Intent of the Shard takes over long term) and and Honor harnessed would be Scary indeed. 

A possibility of all three Shards merging into one Shard should also be considered. What is WAR+CULTIVATION=CONQUEST?

13. This incident could be the trigger required to catapult the Cosmere  towards the space age race and Conquest of the Cosmere war in the future.

 

 

[Ookla she/her]

On 9/20/2024 at 10:08 AM, king of nowhere said:

ghostbloods are mostly pictures as evil on roshar. on scadrial, in the lost metal, they are the good guys.

So the Ghostbloods are good for Scadrians, but bad for Rosharans.