Interludes 1 / 2

[CtrlAltDepressed]

Wow. 

 

Im almost speechless.

 

Felt is an awakener. Good for him. He didnt speak any commands, but I assume he just commanded them to get kalak when he entered and that he is not 10th heightening. 

 

I feel so bad for Kalak. 

 

Why didnt I see that the seon was the real spy? Mraize would never trust Shallan fully. 

 

And Odium. Oh my Odium. 

 

That was such an interesting and revealing conversation between him and Cultivation. 

 

He is still effected by her Boon / Curse - theres a theory laid to rest. 

 

He can feel all suffering, everywhere. That is intense, and puts a new perspective on all of Odiums actions. 

 

Its interesting that he is simultaneously mocking Rayse while also following the same path. 

 

It seems like Cultivations adjustments are working, in that he is better able to control, but it is leading to the same conclusion - that he must be the only god. 

 

Good that we got confirmation that Cultivation is going to work against him moving forward. I was worried about that. 

 

Any other thoughts?

Edited September 16, 2024 by CtrlAltDepressed

[listerfeend]

2 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

He is still effected by her Boon / Curse - theres a theory laid to rest. 

Is he still affected? Or is he now just able to choose which to lean into? Cuz he did that a lot, choosing to feel, and then choosing to let logic take the wheel. Which is sort of the opposite of the boon/curse that he had before. I wonder if that was the purpose of the boon/curse, basically training T to be able to handle all of the emotions that Odium is going to have to interface with.

It was very interesting to see that entire conversation play out between them though

[Siamer]

Having the first 2 interludes being from a Herald and Odium is crazy!

I hope Odium is who we will be getting an interlude from between every part (or day?)!

If Odium is struggling so much already do to the emotions through the entire cosmere it adds a new perspective for shat Sazed is dealing with. Dude has two contradictory shards, it really is amazing he's able to ever get anything done woth how overwhelming the power of these shard have on a person.

[+robardin he/him]

Felt, the man we first saw in TFE working as a spy for House Venture and who trailed Vin and Sazed to their "skaa thieving crew" safehouse and reported such back to Elend...

...is a worldhopper to Roshar who also has Breaths, knows how to Awaken curtains, now possesses a Raysium dagger (how did he get that from Shallan again, or do we know?), and works for/with the Ghostbloods reporting directly to Kelsier (while rejecting the notion that he works for "that masked witch" Iyatil, who is the nominal local head of them on Roshar -- though we do see in TLM that Kelsier considers her as "running amok").

And Ala the seon was a GB seon all along? A willing one. LOLOL.

Does that mean Felt's wife Malli is also a worldhopper? I'd hate to think he had a completely sham marriage on Roshar! And she was also part of the party to Lasting Integrity, right?

And Odium's "feeling the agony, the passion, the hatred" of all the oppressed, downtrodden, and victimized people in the Cosmere, definitely lends a new flavor to the Shard.

[coolsnow7]

I'll go out on a limb and offer an unpopular opinion: I was underwhelmed by these interludes.

I think we learned exactly 2.5 things:

• That the Ghostbloods are specifically after BAM (... and I think we kind of already knew that?)
  • The .5 thing is that there may or may not be a schism forming between the Kelsier and Iyatil wings of the Ghostbloods
• That Odium was willing to reveal his plans - which he very clearly was already set on at the end of RoW - to Cultivation

Otherwise, this was empty of new insights? I guess the fact that Odium is still trying to retain his sense of Taravangian self is somewhat interesting but not new - the Taravangian interlude with Renarin in RoW already told us this would be a thing.

Given the subjects of these interludes, I'm kind of bummed by how little we learn. By contrast, the writing itself and the direction this is all going is awesome and I can't wait for the full book.

19 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

He can feel all suffering, everywhere. That is intense, and puts a new perspective on all of Odiums actions. 

I've long thought that the exchange between Dalinar and Odium in Oathbringer, where Odium keeps saying "I'm the only one who cares about how you feel" warrants more scrutiny.

21 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Its interesting that he is simultaneously mocking Rayse while also following the same path. 

I think this makes perfect sense: he thinks Rayse was incompetent. And I think it's quite hard to argue with that claim.

21 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

It seems like Cultivations adjustments are working, in that he is better able to control, but it is leading to the same conclusion - that he must be the only god. 

I completely disagree: Cultivation thought she was getting someone with her temperament and her approach to the world - someone focused on building systems and willing to accept some short term suffering in exchange for long term prosperity - in the Odium seat. Instead she got a far more capable megalomaniac.

This sequence is building towards strong confirmation that Hoid's story of the boulder and the 3 people is about the 3 shards of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium, and that Cultivation is the one trying to shift the boulder's path - and hence "the most dangerous".

Edited September 16, 2024 by coolsnow7

[+Child of Hodor]

I love the chapter icon for Odium. 

Brandon killed Rayse off and really built up Taravangian to have a new credible threat for finale of this arc, but I don't think he's going to last very long. It is Day 1 and he is already having problems and doing a similar thing to what Rayse did: not call himself Odium.  For Rayse it was passion now Taravangian is actively rejecting that he is Odium and thinks of himself as Taravangian. A Shard divided against itself cannot stand. My guess is by the end of this book he either embraces it and we get him calling himself Unity / the United One or he loses it, and we get Odium a sapient shard running wild with no Vessel. 

[Wadders]

Taravangian seems to be going down the route of being the only god like rayse but that does not mean he intends to destroy all the shards. He might see taking the other shards himself as a way to balance the passion he feels overwhelmed by.

[+robardin he/him]

Just now, coolsnow7 said:

I'll go out on a limb and offer an unpopular opinion: I was underwhelmed by these interludes.

I think we learned exactly 2.5 things:

• That the Ghostbloods are specifically after BAM (... and I think we kind of already knew that?)
  • The .5 thing is that there may or may not be a schism forming between the Kelsier and Iyatil wings of the Ghostbloods
• That Odium was willing to reveal his plans - which he very clearly was already set on at the end of RoW - to Cultivation

Otherwise, this was empty of new insights? I guess the fact that Odium is still trying to retain his sense of Taravangian self is somewhat interesting but not new - the Taravangian interlude with Renarin in RoW already told us this would be a thing.

Given the subjects of these interludes, I'm kind of bummed by how little we learn. By contrast, the writing itself and the direction this is all going is awesome and I can't wait for the full book.

I think learning what Felt can do and who he reports to - and all the implications thereof - was fascinating. As was Kalak thinking of constrictor serpents from "the oold world", something Roshar doesn't have, presumably Ashyn did (or even Yolen?).

He's not a "refugee" from Scadrial, and we already had WoB's that he's a kind of "free agent" who has worked with multiple worldhopper groups over time, and now we see he has Breaths, can Awaken, talks casually to a seon (who we've also never seen dissemble for sympathy before!), etc., - yet he's been on Scadrial for a long time, since he was already a very trusted and respected person in Dalinar's service when he went to visit the Nightwatcher.

As for Odium - I think first-person POV learning what it's like for a person with as powerful a personality as Taravangian taking up a Shard and still trying to "remain himself" was very interesting.

We've had an inkling of this from Sazed/Harmony talking to Wax or Kelsier in Mistborn Era 2, but only a few glimpses, and not first person (from Sazed's own POV).

I think learning that the Shard of Odium feels people's pain constantly, throughout the Cosmere, and anger at their mistreatment, injustice, fate, etc., lends a lot of flavor to why it's so difficult to bear that Shard.

And we got our first glimpse of the actual oaths involved in the Oathpact that binds Odium to Roshar. One that had been hinted at before by Odium, that he could not take direct action against most people, but now we learn it includes any action at all (including helping/healing someone) "who isn't fully given" to Odium.

And it makes me wonder, seeing as pacts are a form of deal that go both ways - what did Honor and Cultivation have to agree to, in order to effectuate this binding?

[coolsnow7]

15 minutes ago, robardin said:

And Ala the seon was a GB seon all along? A willing one. LOLOL.

You know, an interesting angle here is that Ala does not act like other Seons and how we've been taught to expect them to act.

What he/she reminds me of is... an enlightened Spren.

I wonder if there's a connection here between Sja Anat's enlightenment and a similar movement on Sel via Autonomy.

[The Stick]

I think Todium is going to found Communism in the Cosmere. I think he is having a really hard time balancing his inclinations. Is it possible to that Ala is a Skaze?

[the_archduke]

Holy crap.  Taravangian is the Broken One.  

"Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns!"

Edited September 16, 2024 by the_archduke

[coolsnow7]

6 minutes ago, robardin said:

but now we learn it includes any action at all (including helping/healing someone) "who isn't fully given" to Odium.

I do not think we've learned this: Cultivation says "you cannot take action against anyone who hasn't given themselves over to you". Without further context, healing them would not constitute action against them. My guess is that he wants to heal a Tu Baylan child which would constitute supporting the war effort against the Azish - and hence action against them. (And you can understand why: if Odium can just permaheal every fighter on his side without violating his Oaths, why wouldn't he?)

1 minute ago, the_archduke said:

Holy crap.  Taravangian is the Broken One.  

"Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns!"

This is a good callout! Interesting question as to whether "divided" and "broken" are the same thing - could be they are, could be there's some progression from his current state to an even scarier one yet to be seen. (For example, if what Renarin foresaw - that the spark of Taravangian could eventually go out - will constitute him being broken.)

Edited September 16, 2024 by coolsnow7

[+robardin he/him]

2 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

You know, an interesting angle here is that Ala does not act like other Seons and how we've been taught to expect them to act.

What he/she reminds me of is... an enlightened Spren.

I wonder if there's a connection here between Sja Anat's enlightenment and a similar movement on Sel via Autonomy.

Hmmm, when we see Sja-anat "enlightening" spren they have a reddish cast to them afterward, so I don't think it's that.

I think it's more that somehow Ala is "unbounded"? Or else bonded to Kelsier, who treats him as as crewmember instead of a servant?

How did Felt end up in a room alone with Kalak, the seon box, and the Raysium dagger anyway? Kalak was in his own quarters, had Shallan and Co. left the box and dagger with him?

One more thing to note, when the curtains leaped off and bound him, his first thought (being unfamiliar with such tricks of Awakening from Nalthis) was to wonder if it was "some art of Stonewards". We haven't seen any Stonewards using Surges yet, so this is a hint as to what they can do... Manipulate matter to that degree?!

[alder24]

Wow. Kalak and Taravangiang’s interludes. That was a lot.

Rust and Ruin, we all underestimated Felt - I blame Brandon and his WoBs! He was a spy all along, hiding in plain sight without even trying to pretend that he’s not from Roshar - how could such a person be a Ghostblood spy? And yet that’s a perfect cover. Nobody suspected him, not even here. Wow, that’s great. Not only is he a Ghostblood, but also Ala was all along - don’t ever underestimate sapient pieces of gods. Poor Kalak, at least he’s not dead. But it looks like Felt is answering directly to Kelsier, rather than to Mraize or Iyatil. That’s interesting, looks like Kelsier doesn’t fully trust his Rosharan cell, or at least doesn’t believe in their methods. 

But then we got Taravangian’s PoV. That early? Wow. His boon and curse still affects him, but it looks like he controls it now and can decide which side to be. He feels the pain of everyone in Cosmere, which is a lot to digest and he wants to save everyone, yet knows he can’t directly do that no matter what. That leaves him with only one option - be the only god in Cosmere. Welcome back Rayse’s idea. 

He also treats Odium not like hatred, but all/most emotions. I think he has a real chance to change Odium into Passion, or maybe even something else. But also he refuses to treat himself as a Shard, he still wants to be Taravangian, who just holds Odium. I wonder how that would end as that doesn't look very healthy for a Shard - the conflict between power and Vessel doomed Rayse. At least at the beginning it would definitely allow him to assert more control over the power and its will, but what would happen after 1000 years? Would this constant and drastic struggle of wills make his situation even worse than that of Rayse? Can this division between the Vessel and the power be good in the long term and actually be the solution to all problems Vessels faced with control over the power? Don't consider yourself as a Shard and the power will never change you?

And immediately I can see two death rattles which now clearly refer to Taravangian:

Quote

A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears. 

Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns

[Subvisual Haze]

The Seon was the real spy all along!  Which makes the cremling/Sleepless now a red herring.  Hoid not considering that the Seon could spy makes him seem extra incompetent in the whole affair.

Felt was present back when Dalinar visited Cultivation.  He made a comment about not getting a blessing from the old magic due to being too foreign, but now I have to wonder if Cultivation was to some extent working with the Ghostbloods.

I like the implied internal dissent in the Ghostbloods and that Iyatil/Mraize have gone rogue.  Might set up an eventual situation where Shallan gets recruited back into the Ghostbloods to eliminate the rogue branch and become their new leader on Roshar.

I really liked the depiction of Odium being the God of passion (and not the usual hulked out rage).  Strangely I found myself thinking Kaladin would make an excellent match for a shard of passion.  I never really understood before Odium's desire to claim Kaladin as a champion (beyond subverting the other team's hero), but here it seems more clear.  Weeping over dying victims is peak Kaladin.

[Quantus he/him]

Soo much in those...WOW.

Ok random thoughts:

• Kalak described the curtains as being "cut into strange shapes".  That combined with the casual relationship with the Seon make wonder if he's using Aondor or some other selish magic instead of Awakening for that.  Awakening wouldnt need strange shapes at all, there's not much tactical advantage to cutting them into anything more complex than strips. 
• Any possibility that Todium calling Adonalsium Cultivation's Father is Literal?  Could Adonalsium have just been some sort of Supreme Dragon?
• Felt put some odd air quotes on "in Prison" when referring to the Heralds on Braize.  I wonder if there's a hidden twist there, maybe they arent being Tortured in the ways we assumed?
• Cultivation assumed Todium would try to make One God the same way Rayse did, by Shattering them without taking any more Shards up.  I dont think Todium will do that, I think he'll try to recombine Adonalsium.  A recent WOB says combining the right combo's of 4 might be prove far more stable than Harmony, so there might be a path to that. And a fight between 2-4 super-shards in the final era could be particularly epic.  

[Kfish]

I'm not sure that the logical vs emotional side confict with Taravangian is due to the curse/boon. That felt a lot like Taravangian trying but failing to hold the shard in check. The logical side is Taravangian - the man who is fine with a little suffering if it accomplishes a greater good - while the emotional side is the influence of the shard itself. Cultivation's boon and curse definitely feels like it was designed to lead Taravangian to pick up the shard and learn how to deal with it. I think the problem is that emotional Taravangian wept for the pain of others but never felt the rage due to their pain that Odium does. It will be interesting to see Taravangian act in this capacity as even emotional Taravangian followed the plans of intelligent Taravangian. 

[StanLemon]

Good Interludes. I had wondered if Felt was secretly a Ghostblood, so it's nice to have confirmation. 

I see why Odium has liked to call himself passion, but his flavor is still very much anger. Righteous anger perhaps but still rage and hate. Seems to be that a big part of the passions that Todium feels are things that would lead to the emotion that Odium represents. Pain, sorrow, indignation, etc.

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

Kalak described the curtains as being "cut into strange shapes".  That combined with the casual relationship with the Seon make wonder if he's using Aondor or some other selish magic instead of Awakening for that.  Awakening wouldnt need strange shapes at all, there's not much tactical advantage to cutting them into anything more complex than strips. 

It does require - a shape of a person, to make it cheaper, which would look very strange on a curtain. 

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Felt put some odd air quotes on "in Prison" when referring to the Heralds on Braize. 

That was referring to Ala being in the box:

Quote

“Finally!” the spren said. “You have no idea how aggravating that experience was.”

“You did well,” Felt said, leaning back in Kalak’s chair. “I heard Shallan and Adolin talking, worried about the trauma you’d undergone by being ‘in prison.’ ”

 

10 minutes ago, robardin said:

One more thing to note, when the curtains leaped off and bound him, his first thought (being unfamiliar with such tricks of Awakening from Nalthis) was to wonder if it was "some art of Stonewards". We haven't seen any Stonewards using Surges yet, so this is a hint as to what they can do... Manipulate matter to that degree?!

Yeah, WoBs hinted at this too, but I didn't think it would look like Awakening:

Spoiler

Questioner

Can you tell me anything about Tension or Cohesion?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't truly written these magics in yet, so they might change as I actually write the scenes. But they are... Tension is the ability to take something flexible and make it rigid. Which you think sounds simple, but there are so many cool things you could do with that.

Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

18 minutes ago, robardin said:

One more thing to note, when the curtains leaped off and bound him, his first thought (being unfamiliar with such tricks of Awakening from Nalthis) was to wonder if it was "some art of Stonewards". We haven't seen any Stonewards using Surges yet, so this is a hint as to what they can do... Manipulate matter to that degree?!

Zu hinted at exactly that when he suggested to Adolin to strangle people with their own clothing using his powers.

[therunner he/him]

18 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 Would this constant and drastic struggle of wills make his situation even worse than that of Rayse? Can this division between the Vessel and the power be good in the long term and actually be the solution to all problems Vessels faced with control over the power? Don't consider yourself as a Shard and the power will never change you?

Rayse had issues mainly when trying to restrain Passions of his subordinates, which started differing from his (e.g. with Sja-Anat), and when trying to be careful and measured.

Taravangian was always all passion, when it came to his motivations. So as long as Taravangian acts to further Passionate conflicts, than Shard will be ok with him.
Now, within days of Ascending he is already making enemies because of how passionate he is, even when it would make sense to pretend before Cultivation.

[alder24]

49 minutes ago, therunner said:

Rayse had issues mainly when trying to restrain Passions of his subordinates, which started differing from his (e.g. with Sja-Anat), and when trying to be careful and measured.

I'm not so sure, he allowed Leshwi to live in the end because he recognized that she was an agent of the Passion. I think it's rather that he tried to suppress Passion in favor of his plans. The Vessel and the power had different goals and the Vessel was trying to suppress the power. RoW I-2:

Quote

“I will not question.” However, she felt a surging to the power that moved within him. The mind did not like being questioned, but the power … It liked questions. It liked arguments. It was passion.
There was a weakness here. In the division between the Vessel and the Shard.

 

Spoiler

Striker_EZ

Why didn't Odium take the Investiture away from the Fused that rebelled against him at the end of Rhythm of War? At the end of Oathbringer, Odium tells one Fused that questioned him that he could take "that which gave [the Fused] life." So why didn't he do that to Leshwi and the others?

Brandon Sanderson

This is actually an excellent question. Odium, in his previous incarnation-- we'll see how he acts now-- part of the driving force of Odium is this kind of belief, mistaken or otherwise, that Odium represents all emotion, and strength of emotion, and basically the Passions in lore. Rebelling against him in the way that they did is actually in line with Odium's personal directives. The Vessel may not like it, in fact the power may not like it, but at the same time, there's a part of both of them that acknowledges, this is what they set in motion, and this is an appropriate use of the agency of the agents they chose. And so, unilaterally destroying those who turn against him is actually not an Odium thing. It's more an Honor thing than it would be an Odium thing. It's just not in line with how Odium acts or thinks, even though it's possible and there's threats and... That's not saying Odium wouldn't do it. But acting like Honor is not something Odium would necessarily want to do.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

Edit: I'm not sure how to put this in words but I feel like the difference is that Taravangian allows himself to feel, while not allowing the power to rule over him, while Rayse was ruled over by the power at this point, yet still tried to act against it, doing what he wanted to do against power's own will - which put Rayse in conflict with himself.

Edited September 16, 2024 by alder24

[+Oltux72 he/him]

The first interlude has implications. Felt is not the type going on a suicide mission, is he?

That, however, means that he has to have a plan for getting away. He also cannot be planning to merely have a short talk with Kalak and then just walk away. He will want to interrogate him at leisure and use him as a bargaining chip.

Hence there must be a Ghostblood combat team in the vincinity of Lasting Integrity and they must have some kind of secret base in Shadesmar they'll retreat to.

[therunner he/him]

20 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I'm not so sure, he allowed Leshwi to live in the end because he recognized that she was an agent of the Passion. I think it's rather that he tried to suppress Passion in favor of his plans. The Vessel and the power had different goals and the Vessel was trying to suppress the power. RoW I-2:

He did let her live, but he did do it of his own volition, or was he overpowered by Intent after a struggle?
Because the quote seems to me that this was the division point, Rayse the Vessel did not like being challenged, but Odium the Power likes challenge when it comes from passion.

So tried to suppress Passion of others, and the Power did not like it. He acted more in line of Dominion if anything.

Quote

Edit: I'm not sure how to put this in words but I feel like the difference is that Taravangian allows himself to feel, while now allowing the power to rule over him, while Rayse was ruled over by the power at this point, yet still tried to act against it, doing what he wanted to do against power's own will - which put Rayse in conflict with himself.

I am not sure if I understand this. You mean that Rayse was so suffused, that trying to act against Intent of Odium was creating inner conflict in effect?
But Taravangian is not there yet?

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

1 hour ago, coolsnow7 said:

I do not think we've learned this: Cultivation says "you cannot take action against anyone who hasn't given themselves over to you". Without further context, healing them would not constitute action against them. My guess is that he wants to heal a Tu Baylan child which would constitute supporting the war effort against the Azish - and hence action against them. (And you can understand why: if Odium can just permaheal every fighter on his side without violating his Oaths, why wouldn't he?)

When Odium says he should be able to help them, to save them, Cultivation says:

Quote

"You are forbidden," Cultivation said, "from taking direct action against any who are not fully given to you."

To me that reads as a direct response to him wanting to heal the child, and being told that he can't have any direct impact on people unless they are fully given to him. His later response futher supports that in my opinion, as he specifies that he needs them to be fully his and he has to be allowed to intervene.

Quote

"I understand," he admitted. "Assuming these were fully mine, and I were allowed, it would not be enough. I could wave my hand, heal this boy's body - but I'd return in several weeks and find him starving again, because the systems that caused this suffering are still in place."

What is interesting to me here, is that they have to be "given" to him. Does he need approval from Honor or Cultivation? Or is it simply speaking to the individual giving themselves to Odium? Like how Moash has to allow Odium to help him take away his pain?

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I really liked the depiction of Odium being the God of passion (and not the usual hulked out rage).  Strangely I found myself thinking Kaladin would make an excellent match for a shard of passion.  I never really understood before Odium's desire to claim Kaladin as a champion (beyond subverting the other team's hero), but here it seems more clear.  Weeping over dying victims is peak Kaladin.

Yes! Which begs even more of the question - why did Kaladin have glowing gold and red eyes when fighting the 'defeated one' in RoW? Was he at his peak passion in that moment? He actually does seem to have a LOT of overlap for what we now know of Odium's shard, and of course he has always had his Honor connection that has been quite obvious and upfront. Could we be setting up for yet another shard combination, with Kaladin taking up both Honor and Odium?