The Sword of Harmony vs the Son of honor

[lacrossedeamon]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I'd doubt it, the reason that objects on the ground are harder to affect is that their Connection to the ground is strongest.

Either way Bullets are affected, and it would take incredible force to overcome.

  Reveal hidden contents

VindicationKnight

Could a Full Lashing bend the path of bullets? Or do they have too much momentum?

Brandon Sanderson

It could.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3523

 

 

 

I’m theorizing that a constant steelpush might provide a Connection to a force in the same way touching the ground provides a stronger Connection to a force. Also technically a Full Lashing (which is what that WOB says) could not as it only triggers on contact.

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Kaladin did a similar feat during the battle of the Tower, when with one powerful burst of reverse lashing, he attracted hundred arrows into his shield. TWoK ch 67

 

I don’t see the two similar at all. Curving arrows in flight is magnitudes less compared to ripping the head off someone.

[Frustration]

57 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I’m theorizing that a constant steelpush might provide a Connection to a force in the same way touching the ground provides a stronger Connection to a force.

A Connection, but not to the planet, or even to the ground.

57 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Also technically a Full Lashing (which is what that WOB says) could not as it only triggers on contact.

Brandon doesn't remember the lashings terminology, and the context clearly is referring to reverse lashings.

Spoiler

Blake Bouza

Do you ever need a reminder of what your own magic systems can do, or is it all laid out pretty perfectly in your mind?

Brandon Sanderson

No, I need reminders on the kind of subtle things. Mostly terminology and what decisions I made, because in a book sometimes you'll make decisions on the fly where you're like, "I think this isn't working, I'm gonna change it to this," or things like that. Like, I still forget that I swapped tin for silver. And I still forget exactly what terminology I came up for Szeth using the Lashings, and some stuff like that. And sometimes I need a, "Hey, does this feel like it works for the magic system?" Because the further we get in the Cosmere, the less simple the rules are, and the more complicated and - like real world physics, where you're building things that work like complicated engineering devices, right? Like, building some of the ways that magic is working on Scadrial with the mechanical elements, and the medallions, and stuff like that is getting really complicated, and I had to write it out and I had to go back and reference that. Because yes, I can remember what metal does what and what the rules are here, but the actual how-they-all-interact-and-come-together gets kinda complicated! So yeah, definitely need reminders on my own magic systems.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/409/#e13565

 

 

 

[lacrossedeamon]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

A Connection, but not to the planet, or even to the ground.

Brandon doesn't remember the lashings terminology, and the context clearly is referring to reverse lashings.

  Reveal hidden contents

Blake Bouza

Do you ever need a reminder of what your own magic systems can do, or is it all laid out pretty perfectly in your mind?

Brandon Sanderson

No, I need reminders on the kind of subtle things. Mostly terminology and what decisions I made, because in a book sometimes you'll make decisions on the fly where you're like, "I think this isn't working, I'm gonna change it to this," or things like that. Like, I still forget that I swapped tin for silver. And I still forget exactly what terminology I came up for Szeth using the Lashings, and some stuff like that. And sometimes I need a, "Hey, does this feel like it works for the magic system?" Because the further we get in the Cosmere, the less simple the rules are, and the more complicated and - like real world physics, where you're building things that work like complicated engineering devices, right? Like, building some of the ways that magic is working on Scadrial with the mechanical elements, and the medallions, and stuff like that is getting really complicated, and I had to write it out and I had to go back and reference that. Because yes, I can remember what metal does what and what the rules are here, but the actual how-they-all-interact-and-come-together gets kinda complicated! So yeah, definitely need reminders on my own magic systems.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/409/#e13565

 

 

 

Sure but that might also mean that any strong enough Connection could interfere with a Reverse Lashing.

But anyways all that WoB says is that a reverse lashing will influence a bullet’s flight path which is obvious because bullets are normally affected by gravity just because the gravity’s “center” has changed location would stop a bullet’s usual susceptibility to it. But even while affected by gravity you can still hit a target with a bullet especially if you are able to apply constant acceleration to it like a steelpush would. So while the bullet might curve a bit I’m not sure it’ll be enough to be practical except in fringe cases.

[Frustration]

29 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

But anyways all that WoB says is that a reverse lashing will influence a bullet’s flight path which is obvious because bullets are normally affected by gravity just because the gravity’s “center” has changed location would stop a bullet’s usual susceptibility to it. But even while affected by gravity you can still hit a target with a bullet especially if you are able to apply constant acceleration to it like a steelpush would. So while the bullet might curve a bit I’m not sure it’ll be enough to be practical except in fringe cases.

The same applies to arrows.

Reverse lashings are much stronger than gravity.

29 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Sure but that might also mean that any strong enough Connection could interfere with a Reverse Lashing.

Connection in and if itself won't matter, as otherwise people would be much harder to affect. Connection to the planet is what matters, and even then it only makes them more resistant, not immune.

[lacrossedeamon]

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

The same applies to arrows.

Reverse lashings are much stronger than gravity.

Yeah but the arrows are moving 1/10th the speed if not slower and only under the power of the initial force not a constant push.

I feel this is a spectrum thing. They can be but they can also be weaker. It depends on how much Investiture is expended.

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

Connection in and if itself won't matter, as otherwise people would be much harder to affect. Connection to the planet is what matters, and even then it only makes them more resistant, not immune.

Do you have an explicit source for the idea that only Connection to the planet is what matters?

[Frustration]

26 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Yeah but the arrows are moving 1/10th the speed if not slower and only under the power of the initial force not a constant push.

And? My point stands.

26 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I feel this is a spectrum thing. They can be but they can also be weaker. It depends on how much Investiture is expended.

When have they ever been weaker?

26 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Do you have an explicit source for the idea that only Connection to the planet is what matters?

The only time Connection being relevant to reverse lashings is even mentioned is in conjunction with the planet.

[lacrossedeamon]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And? My point stands.

Which was?

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

When have they ever been weaker?

We don't have a great sample size but the instance in WoK seems a lot weaker to me than the one in RoW so I'm open to the idea the force can be variable.

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The only time Connection being relevant to reverse lashings is even mentioned is in conjunction with the planet.

So nothing explicitly definitive.

[cometaryorbit]

Wouldn't aluminum bullets ignore reverse lashings?

Wax's best move here is probably to lighten his weight and use steel/iron for mobility to stay out of Shardblade range, and rely on guns for offense. Pretty much how he'd do it for most of his career ... the new Mistborn powers are probably only relevant here to give him a little better mobility (steel/iron rather than just steel). He can't afford to get close enough to use chromium Leeching or pewter strength, and pewter dexterity/speed is less relevant if he's moving using iron/steel.

The Mistborn powers would matter much more against a more "subtle" Order like a Lightweaver, where tin and bronze might be critical. A coppercloud might have some weird effect on spren, since they're Cognitive entities, but since Syl will be Physically manifested as a Shardblade/spear it shouldn't matter here.

But he doesn't have much of a chance, because Shardplate will take several bullets to get through since Wax can't Steelpush on aluminum bullets to boost their force. And living Shardplate can heal itself, I think. 4th ideal Radiants are just really, really hard to kill.

Though there are two possible wild cards:

- a duralumin emotional allomancy blast, or maybe even regular flared, might effectively take Kaladin out of a fight... but it doesn't seem fair to assume Wax knows what emotions to choose to hit Kaladin's vulnerabilities.

- electrum Allomancy is a capability that I don't think Radiants really have a good counter to, which could potentially make a Mistborn also incredibly hard to kill. But it seems like getting anything more useful than "counters atium" out of it takes serious work (Vin didn't get it despite her exceptional intuition with Allomancy) so Wax probably won't have this.

So I don't think either of these would let Wax win, but they are IMO relevant to Mistborn vs Radiant fights.

[lacrossedeamon]

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Wouldn't aluminum bullets ignore reverse lashings?

Yes which is why we are arguing about hypothetical specialty bullets that could both be steelpushed but also not affected by lashing

[therunner]

On 19/02/2023 at 4:46 AM, cometaryorbit said:

Wouldn't aluminum bullets ignore reverse lashings?

They would, but they would also not be pushable by Wax.
And Wax taking advantage of Vindication + his abilities is what would allow him to break Shardplate in 2-3 hits.
So using only aluminum bullet would pretty much guarantee he cannot get through Shardplate.

On the other hand, non-aluminum bullets can be drawn off target by Reverse Lashing, again decreasing his reliability.

Sidenote: Since Roshar is much more high-Investiture world then Scadrial, I would expect that continuous steelpush would not really interfere with Reverse Lashing much if at all.
I mean, two Allomancers can easily push on the same coin/metalsource with no drawbacks being ever mentioned. If coin being pushed on made it resist other Invested arts it would not be possible for Mistborn to defend against Coinshots/Mistborn shooting coins.

As the example of Pursuer proves, Reverse Lashing can affect parts of living beings, and affecting living creatures is much more difficult then affect non-living ones. Additionally, it can also affect only part of an object which is again much more difficult then affecting the whole. And finally, Puruser was Cognitive Shadow, so Invested beyond any living Allomancer, and so more Invested than any amount of investiture the bullet would have (or the Connection would provide).

All together this should be enough to show that Reverse Lashings should easily effect even bullets which are being Pushed on.

On 19/02/2023 at 4:46 AM, cometaryorbit said:

Wax's best move here is probably to lighten his weight and use steel/iron for mobility to stay out of Shardblade range, and rely on guns for offense. Pretty much how he'd do it for most of his career ... the new Mistborn powers are probably only relevant here to give him a little better mobility (steel/iron rather than just steel). He can't afford to get close enough to use chromium Leeching or pewter strength, and pewter dexterity/speed is less relevant if he's moving using iron/steel.

Generally Steel/Iron combo is inferior to Lashings in every way, and I don't think F-Iron would be enough to bridge the gap.
It could make him faster, but only up to a point where Wax would start to pass out from g-forces (which should be more pronounced for him then for Windrunner).

So I don't think he could actually stay out of Shardblade range for long (or at all really).

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- a duralumin emotional allomancy blast, or maybe even regular flared, might effectively take Kaladin out of a fight... but it doesn't seem fair to assume Wax knows what emotions to choose to hit Kaladin's vulnerabilities.

Shardplate would shield against that, so that strategy relies on Kaladin to leave a weakness open to exploit.

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- electrum Allomancy is a capability that I don't think Radiants really have a good counter to, which could potentially make a Mistborn also incredibly hard to kill. But it seems like getting anything more useful than "counters atium" out of it takes serious work (Vin didn't get it despite her exceptional intuition with Allomancy) so Wax probably won't have this.

With a lot of training as you say it could help. But if being a weak Mistborn means Wax would not get the usual 2-3 seconds of future-shadows, but only <1 second, it would not help much.
Additional problem is that shardblade would not leave any physical wound to be easily seen in the Electrum shadow, delaying the time it would become noticeable (especially if it would not be killing blow, but only severing an arm for example).

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But he doesn't have much of a chance, because Shardplate will take several bullets to get through since Wax can't Steelpush on aluminum bullets to boost their force. And living Shardplate can heal itself, I think. 4th ideal Radiants are just really, really hard to kill.

Both living and deadplate can heal, living one possibly more efficiently (as usual).
And yep, 4th ideal Radiants are very hard to kill, as long as they have enough Stormlight, though Living Plate mitigates even that a bit (being hard to damage, and not requiring light to operate).

[Frustration]

Another thing is that Wax can't reload, as he can't afford to spend the time.

So the 12 or so bullets that he has chambered already are all the shots he has.

[therunner]

39 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Another thing is that Wax can't reload, as he can't afford to spend the time.

So the 12 or so bullets that he has chambered already are all the shots he has.

I don't think I agree with that.
If we consider Wax who knows about his nature as Mistborn, then he could use bendalloy bubble for reloading, if his compression factor is at least ~3x.

But it would definitely introduce a complication for him.

[Frustration]

24 minutes ago, therunner said:

I don't think I agree with that.
If we consider Wax who knows about his nature as Mistborn, then he could use bendalloy bubble for reloading, if his compression factor is at least ~3x.

I don't think he could even get that much.

Elend had an entire bead, Wax only got dust.

I'd honestly be surprised if his speed bubble would even have a noticable compression factor.

[therunner]

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't think he could even get that much.

Elend had an entire bead, Wax only got dust.

I'd honestly be surprised if his speed bubble would even have a noticable compression factor.

Provided the effect is linear I would agree (and honestly that is the most natural assumption).

However it feels to me that the little tidbits we see in TLM suggest stronger effect than that, so I lean towards there being some sort of minimal threshold for strength.
I mean, by Era 2 allomancy is as diluted and weak as it will get, and even then Wayne can get trivially get 15x fold compression (at minimum), so Lerasium Mistborn would probably get at the very elast ~30-40x compression at minimum.

From that perspective 3x compression for 'dust-Mistborn' ('dustBorn' if you will) like Wax is not impossible.

However, ultimately we have no evidence for this, so I'd suggest we agree to disagree. 
Either way, I don't think it would provide Wax edge against 4th Ideal Windrunner.

[cometaryorbit]

While I don't really disagree overall (Kaladin is hugely favored to win), I do have comments or questions on a few of the details... (I added bracketed numbers to your quote)

On 2/20/2023 at 5:38 AM, therunner said:

[1] And Wax taking advantage of Vindication + his abilities is what would allow him to break Shardplate in 2-3 hits.
So using only aluminum bullet would pretty much guarantee he cannot get through Shardplate.


[2] Sidenote: Since Roshar is much more high-Investiture world then Scadrial, I would expect that continuous steelpush would not really interfere with Reverse Lashing much if at all.
I mean, two Allomancers can easily push on the same coin/metalsource with no drawbacks being ever mentioned.

 

[3] Generally Steel/Iron combo is inferior to Lashings in every way, and I don't think F-Iron would be enough to bridge the gap.
It could make him faster, but only up to a point where Wax would start to pass out from g-forces (which should be more pronounced for him then for Windrunner).

So I don't think he could actually stay out of Shardblade range for long (or at all really).

[4] Shardplate would shield against that, so that strategy relies on Kaladin to leave a weakness open to exploit.

 But if being a weak Mistborn means Wax would not get the usual 2-3 seconds of future-shadows, but only <1 second, it would not help much.

[5] Both living and deadplate can heal, living one possibly more efficiently (as usual).
And yep, 4th ideal Radiants are very hard to kill, as long as they have enough Stormlight, though Living Plate mitigates even that a bit (being hard to damage, and not requiring light to operate).

1. Hmm, good point. I don't think we know enough about breaking Plate to be sure*, but against RL armor (where momentum matters, not just energy) aluminum bullets would be vastly inferior to lead ones.

In fact aluminum bullets would have real trouble against large animals or large koloss - aluminum is less than 3x denser than flesh, so it can only pierce so far.

*It doesn't work exactly like piercing real world armor... it cracks or explodes, but doesn't get holes through it (or even deep dents, I don't think).

2. I agree. In fact, I don't think a Steelpush or Ironpull actually Invests the metal being Pushed/Pulled. The Investiture creates the force, but doesn't directly Invest the metal. Just like if an Elantrian creates a flamethrower blast of fire someone being burned by it isn't being Invested by the Dor.

But even if I'm wrong about that, yes, the Investiture scale is totally different. Lashings work on people by default, which is way more Investiture resistance than Iron/Steel can handle without super exceptional strength.

3. OK, here I strongly disagree. Iron/Steel has the disadvantage of needing anchors, but Windrunners *do* feel g-forces (yeah, by RL physics they shouldn't, but they do).

And Mistborn Wax has pewter Allomancy, so he can take a lot of g-force. Also, Steelpushes/Ironpulls tend to be short-burst (unlike Lashings) and the human body can take a lot more g-force in short bursts than over time. So I think he's actually likely to be less troubled by g-forces than a Windrunner.

(Now, Kaladin won't crush himself because of Stormlight healing, but that doesn't mean he can function well enough to fight under high g-forces. Stormlight oxygenates him without need to breathe, but that won't give him the strength to move his limbs at high g. He'd have to constantly cancel Lashings and re-Lash to move at really high accelerations and still fight. I think there's a reason we don't generally see x10 or x20 Lashings used to fly.)

4. Yes, the duralumin emotional allomancy trick would only be workable as an opener before the fight really starts (assuming that 4th ideals don't have the Investiture resistance unless tbe Plate is summoned). I don't think it's really a fair tactic in this match up (as it would require Wax being given an unfair advantage to work, at least in knowledge of Kaladin - his being able to "shoot first" is probably 50/50).

We don't know how strong Wax would be, but I'd argue that for a trained fighter like Wax even a second would be incredibly significant. It doesn't seem fair for this match-up to give him the level of training needed, though (given Vin with her super Allomancy intuition didn't get it in a year or more).

Neither of these are likely to be decisive here. I thought they were worth mentioning, though, because while a Mistborn is at a crushing disadvantage in a direct physical fight against 4th+ ideals (and significant disadvantage against some, if not most, 3rd ideals) they do have some powers that are kind of outside the Radiants' sphere.

5. Dead Plate does heal with Stormlight, but not on a time frame usable in combat.

And yeah, 4th+ ideals are just super hard to kill without "anti magic" weapons (anti-Investiture, Leeching/larkin/etc, suppressor fabrial, Nightblood ... even aluminum has trouble with Plate in the picture, and suppressors are less effective at 4th). I kind of wonder why the Heralds even were fighting in the late Desolations- they seem obsolete - but I guess if pre Honor death Bondsmiths couldn't do the Perpendicularity thing (maybe only grant Light by touch?) they'd have been much more vulnerable to running out.

Edited February 22, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[therunner]

3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

While I don't really disagree overall (Kaladin is hugely favored to win), I do have comments or questions on a few of the details... (I added bracketed numbers to your quote)

Thank you for the numbering! That helps quite a bit

3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

While I don't really disagree overall (Kaladin is hugely favored to win), I do have comments or questions on a few of the details... (I added bracketed numbers to your quote)

1. Hmm, good point. I don't think we know enough about breaking Plate to be sure*, but against RL armor (where momentum matters, not just energy) aluminum bullets would be vastly inferior to lead ones.

In fact aluminum bullets would have real trouble against large animals or large koloss - aluminum is less than 3x denser than flesh, so it can only pierce so far.*It doesn't work exactly like piercing real world armor... it cracks or explodes, but doesn't get holes through it (or even deep dents, I don't think).

We have two WoBs on Shardplate and bullets. One (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3561) says that Shardplate would resist bullets fairly well (which combined with resistance of Roseite powered by pure Investiture suggests that "fairly well" is possibly understatement), the other () saying that Wax with Vindication and appropriate bullet could break section in 2-3 hits (or possibly even 1 if everything goes right for him).

Combining this information I think we can consider that aluminum bullets sufficiently negate Wax primary advantage (pushing on bullet while tapping weight), so that he is unable to effectively break sections.

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3. OK, here I strongly disagree. Iron/Steel has the disadvantage of needing anchors, but Windrunners *do* feel g-forces (yeah, by RL physics they shouldn't, but they do).

And Mistborn Wax has pewter Allomancy, so he can take a lot of g-force. Also, Steelpushes/Ironpulls tend to be short-burst (unlike Lashings) and the human body can take a lot more g-force in short bursts than over time. So I think he's actually likely to be less troubled by g-forces than a Windrunner.

(Now, Kaladin won't crush himself because of Stormlight healing, but that doesn't mean he can function well enough to fight under high g-forces. Stormlight oxygenates him without need to breathe, but that won't give him the strength to move his limbs at high g. He'd have to constantly cancel Lashings and re-Lash to move at really high accelerations and still fight. I think there's a reason we don't generally see x10 or x20 Lashings used to fly.)

I know Windrunners feel g-forces, even though they reaaally should not, however Mistborn/Mistings should definately experience them (their powers generate regular forces).

Mistborn Wax has extremely weak A-pewter, and Radiant holds Stormlight that should also help them withstand g-forces.  So I'd argue on that they would be on-par (with Radiant actually able to heal from damage caused by g-forces, something Mistborn would not be able to do).

Also the short-bursts nature is worse, because while shorter, the g-force has to be much larger to achieve comparable speeds, and even short g-force can cause damage if they are great enough. And Windrunner could copy that effect anyway by appropriately stacking Lashings.
Finally, Wax never mentioned g-forces being issue, while Windrunners did, so we can reasonably conclude that acceleration of Coinshot is lower to that Windrunners can easily achieve.

So really, anything Mistborn can do regarding movement with Steel/Iron, Windrunner can do too and they can also do more than that + heal damage they would cause themselves. Hence my opinion that Lashings are strictly superior for mobility.

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4. Yes, the duralumin emotional allomancy trick would only be workable as an opener before the fight really starts (assuming that 4th ideals don't have the Investiture resistance unless tbe Plate is summoned). I don't think it's really a fair tactic in this match up (as it would require Wax being given an unfair advantage to work, at least in knowledge of Kaladin - his being able to "shoot first" is probably 50/50).

Well if we allow one free hit than lashed rock (or few) reliably kills Wax, so yeah I agree that those are not fair tactics.
In ambush the side with the first move has advantage, thought I don't think here the advantage is sufficient to allow victory in most cases.

3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

We don't know how strong Wax would be, but I'd argue that for a trained fighter like Wax even a second would be incredibly significant. It doesn't seem fair for this match-up to give him the level of training needed, though (given Vin with her super Allomancy intuition didn't get it in a year or more.

We know that strength of Lerasium Mistborn depends on amount of Lerasium, and Wax got effectively dust particles. Wayne was stronger Mistborn than Wax, and even he would have been far weaker then Elend (or even Vin most likely).
And the effects Wax exhibited were barely perceptible, suggesting he is weaker in all other metals than Mistings would be.

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Neither of these are likely to be decisive here. I thought they were worth mentioning, though, because while a Mistborn is at a crushing disadvantage in a direct physical fight against 4th+ ideals (and significant disadvantage against some, if not most, 3rd ideals) they do have some powers that are kind of outside the Radiants' sphere.

I agree that they are useful to mention in the more broader context.

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5. Dead Plate does heal with Stormlight, but not on a time frame usable in combat.

Not sure about that. If you cannot hit the same section repeatedly and reliably, even dead plate could heal some damage from bullets, increasing the amount of time necessary to break through.

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I kind of wonder why the Heralds even were fighting in the late Desolations- they seem obsolete - but I guess if pre Honor death Bondsmiths couldn't do the Perpendicularity thing (maybe only grant Light by touch?) they'd have been much more vulnerable to running out.

I think Heralds were fighting because of ~3 main things:
 

1. As you mention, Bondsmiths were more limited prior to Honor's death. Also there were only at most 4 at once (and often less than that, e.g. at Recreance there was a single Bondsmith), so they could not provide light on more than 4 battlefields at once.
2. Current Roshar is faar more advanced than humanity was at time of Desolations. From what Taln is saying they had to be taught to cast bronze, i.e. the civilizations after desolation was typically Stone age level. Radiants won't help that much if your other soldiers can be equipped with at most bronze weapons, possibly only stone ones, and have little in ways of armor. (plus no long range communication since span-reeds are not a thing yet).
3. Heralds were provided Stormlight directly from Honor, so they would not be restricted same way as Radiants would be. As a result, they could do stuff like e.g. Jasnah did at battle of Theylen field whenever they wanted (and more of course, since they were more skilled). On the other hand even with the amount of Stormlight they had, they could not heal as well as even lowly 2nd Oath Radiant. So while Heralds were offensively far beyond any Radiant, they were 'squishier' to some extent.

Edited February 22, 2023 by therunner

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

[1] We have two WoBs on Shardplate and bullets. One (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3561) says that Shardplate would resist bullets fairly well (which combined with resistance of Roseite powered by pure Investiture suggests that "fairly well" is possibly understatement), the other () saying that Wax with Vindication and appropriate bullet could break section in 2-3 hits (or possibly even 1 if everything goes right for him).


[3] Mistborn Wax has extremely weak A-pewter, and Radiant holds Stormlight that should also help them withstand g-forces.  So I'd argue on that they would be on-par (with Radiant actually able to heal from damage caused by g-forces, something Mistborn would not be able to do).

Also the short-bursts nature is worse, because while shorter, the g-force has to be much larger to achieve comparable speeds, and even short g-force can cause damage if they are great enough. And Windrunner could copy that effect anyway by appropriately stacking Lashings.
Finally, Wax never mentioned g-forces being issue, while Windrunners did, so we can reasonably conclude that acceleration of Coinshot is lower to that Windrunners can easily achieve.

So really, anything Mistborn can do regarding movement with Steel/Iron, Windrunner can do too and they can also do more than that + heal damage they would cause themselves. Hence my opinion that Lashings are strictly superior for mobility.

 

[6] I think Heralds were fighting because of ~3 main things:
 

1. As you mention, Bondsmiths were more limited prior to Honor's death. Also there were only at most 4 at once (and often less than that, e.g. at Recreance there was a single Bondsmith), so they could not provide light on more than 4 battlefields at once.
2. Current Roshar is faar more advanced than humanity was at time of Desolations. From what Taln is saying they had to be taught to cast bronze, i.e. the civilizations after desolation was typically Stone age level. Radiants won't help that much if your other soldiers can be equipped with at most bronze weapons, possibly only stone ones, and have little in ways of armor. (plus no long range communication since span-reeds are not a thing yet).
3. Heralds were provided Stormlight directly from Honor, so they would not be restricted same way as Radiants would be. As a result, they could do stuff like e.g. Jasnah did at battle of Theylen field whenever they wanted (and more of course, since they were more skilled). On the other hand even with the amount of Stormlight they had, they could not heal as well as even lowly 2nd Oath Radiant. So while Heralds were offensively far beyond any Radiant, they were 'squishier' to some extent.

1) I was thinking that the "maybe 1" absolutely required Steelpushing, but the 2-3 might not. I don't think the Roseite case is relevant here because liquid Investiture was involved and that's crazy powerful.

But yeah, aluminum armor piercing would be very poor (unless the "crack or explode rather than puncture" nature of Shardplate failure means energy is more relevant than momentum).

3) I don't think Stormlight will help all that much with g-forces. The healing will certainly prevent lasting damage, but Kaladin (or any human) will be unable to fight effectively at much lower g levels than those that would do lasting damage anyway.

As for short bursts, I don't think either character is getting to accelerations that would be that devastating (short of duralumin-steel, in which case duralumin-pewter can help deal with it).

It's not just about speed, it's about maneuverability. I agree that a Windrunner with sufficient Stormlight is faster *on a long, straight flight*  than any Mistborn - a lot faster (highstorms are at ~370mph and Kaladin's flown with them).

But I think a Mistborn with enough coins/horseshoes/whatever can *turn and maneuver* faster - or at least that their flight style as we've seen it is better at fast turns and maneuvers than what we've seen of Windrunner flight (which admittedly may be less mature technique than Steeljumping).

And a Mistborn with f-Iron is *definitely* more maneuverable. Wax at low weight can take 15 g's *and weigh the same as he normally does*. So he could fight just fine at 20 g whereas Kaladin couldn't move his arms. With low weight and pewter strengthening he could endure ridiculously high accelerations (hundreds of g's).

6) It's more "why are normal soldiers in the major battles either". Holding ground, sure, but I don't think every Fused in existence plus a thousand Thunderclasts could beat 50 Windrunners backed up by say 10 each Skybreakers, Dustbringers, Elsecallers, and Edgedancers - all 4th ideal - if they had enough Light.

Without Anti-Light (which didn't exist yet), what can the Fused do effectively against a flying Radiant in Plate with a Blade? One hit to the gemheart kills the Fused, while the Radiant is shrugging off otherwise deadly hits left to right.

Edited February 22, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[TheOtherDave]

On 2/2/2023 at 4:41 PM, Sky Breaker said:

This might be a tough one but I think kaladin would pull through considering he has armor that can heal and can heal himself and wax’s RPG may or may not crack shardplate fast enough to hurt him

Where's this hypothetical battle happening? If it's not on (or reasonably close to) Roshar, where would the spren to heal his armor come from? I'm pretty sure we haven't seen anything about that in any of the books yet... Is there a relevant WoB?

[Sky Breaker]

 

Quote

Where's this hypothetical battle happening? If it's not on (or reasonably close to) Roshar, where would the spren to heal his armor come from? I'm pretty sure we haven't seen anything about that in any of the books yet... Is there a relevant WoB?

I’m pretty sure that when shardplate heals it doesn’t constantly pull in new spren other wise wouldn’t alethi war zones have less plate spren but we see plenty of spren in the places where shard bearers are all fighting 

[therunner]

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

1) I was thinking that the "maybe 1" absolutely required Steelpushing, but the 2-3 might not. I don't think the Roseite case is relevant here because liquid Investiture was involved and that's crazy powerful.

But yeah, aluminum armor piercing would be very poor (unless the "crack or explode rather than puncture" nature of Shardplate failure means energy is more relevant than momentum).

Yeah, that is up to interpretation.
Originally, I also thought that 2-3 did not require Steelpushing, however in light of the other WoB I don't think that makes sense, since Vindication bullets are not that much more powerful.

However, it is up to interpretation.

I brought up Roseite because it is the only other example of 'powered armor' fueled by Investiture. Purified Dor is possibly more concentrated the Stormlight (one being liquid, the other gas), but on the other hand Roseite seems to be more fragile in its natural state, so would have to be strenghted more and heal more than Shardplate would.

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

3) I don't think Stormlight will help all that much with g-forces. The healing will certainly prevent lasting damage, but Kaladin (or any human) will be unable to fight effectively at much lower g levels than those that would do lasting damage anyway.

As for short bursts, I don't think either character is getting to accelerations that would be that devastating (short of duralumin-steel, in which case duralumin-pewter can help deal with it).

The major problem with g-forces is that they cause damage to the body, something which Stormlight will heal immediately, hence g-forces not being much of a problem for Windrunner.

Quote

It's not just about speed, it's about maneuverability. I agree that a Windrunner with sufficient Stormlight is faster *on a long, straight flight*  than any Mistborn - a lot faster (highstorms are at ~370mph and Kaladin's flown with them).

But I think a Mistborn with enough coins/horseshoes/whatever can *turn and maneuver* faster - or at least that their flight style as we've seen it is better at fast turns and maneuvers than what we've seen of Windrunner flight (which admittedly may be less mature technique than Steeljumping).

And a Mistborn with f-Iron is *definitely* more maneuverable. ...

Mistborn definitely cannot turn and maneuver better than Windrunner. Mistborn are limited in both direction and strength of force they can use to maneuver, while Windrunners are not. There is no scenario where Mistborn has better maneuverability, Windrunners simply have far better ability, they can accelerate/decelerate as much as they wish, in any direction they which, which Mistborn simply cannot do.

I some previous thread (possibly Mistborn vs Windrunner?) I have done some quick comparison using Vin as example, typical push on a coin (since most Mistborn cannot carefully change strength of push outside of flaring) over 50 feet can be replicated by ~2.5 lashings for first quarter of trajectory and then dismissing it, trivial accomplishment for Windrunner.
(as a sidenote, this then also shows that the initial strength of the push on the coin is probably less then ~3 g, since Vin continued to push on the coin the entire time).

Also, SA5 spoilers

Spoiler

In the first and second Kaladin chapters we see him literally casually float around finding it more natural than walking, demonstrating control and maneuverability faar beyond what any Mistborn ever shown, or even what Mistborn with F-iron could achieve.
At that point he is not thinking about dismissing and placing lashings, he just flies around as he needs. So after 2 years it is natural enough to do it instinctually (provided enough Stormlight of course)

On the topic of technique, all Windrunners we have seen are literal pioneers, and have their powers for less then ~2 years and are mostly self-taught (or taught by someone who was self-taught). Conversely everyone with Steel/Iron was taught by people with more experience/taught skills. Or in case of Wax have over 20 years of experience.
And even then, they can achieve better precision and greater speeds then Mistborn.

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Wax at low weight can take 15 g's *and weigh the same as he normally does*. So he could fight just fine at 20 g whereas Kaladin couldn't move his arms. With low weight and pewter strengthening he could endure ridiculously high accelerations (hundreds of g's).

Except that Wax's body could not take 15 g*s, still being damaged by the forces acting upon it. Him being lighter won't help at all (outside of having easier time moving his arms around, though we have never seen Windrunner having this particular issue).
Not to mention that considering the estimated strength of steelpush from coin, Wax has no way to generate 15 g's outside of using Duralumin.

EDIT: And Kaladin in the arena fight applied 'many' Lashings to himself, enough to crack Shardplate, despite falling only short distance (short enough that he thought no one could notice what he did) While we don't have precise numbers, the force of impact must have been greater than Shardplate simply falling, so he had to have lashed himself at least ~10-12 times, and possibly much more, to generate sufficient force over such short distance. (it is frustrating not having exact numbers to work off ).

And honestly, if literal gravity manipulation still leads to g-forces (despite that simply being impossible due to nature of the forces), then simple mass manipulation should not be able to avoid it either.

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

6) It's more "why are normal soldiers in the major battles either". Holding ground, sure, but I don't think every Fused in existence plus a thousand Thunderclasts could beat 50 Windrunners backed up by say 10 each Skybreakers, Dustbringers, Elsecallers, and Edgedancers - all 4th ideal - if they had enough Light.

The key part there is if they had enough Light.
Sure, 3rd Oath Windrunner with full bag of spheres can fly non-stop for ~12 hours as hard as they can lash themselves, but in a fight Stormlight would be used more (for healing the Radiant and/or the plate, applying the powers etc.). So all of them would probably run out after several hours, rendering them effectively powerless.

Also, if the Fused used their powers smartly (currently they are probably much more Insane than they were in Desolations, as now they have been CS for 4000 years more, deteriorating them further) they should gang up on Radiants (along with using Regals to help) to immobilize then and get in strikes to break plate.

Frankly I think thousand Thunderclasts backed by ~100 Fused would be a problem for ~90 Radiants, even if they are 4th Oath.

Quote

Without Anti-Light (which didn't exist yet), what can the Fused do effectively against a flying Radiant in Plate with a Blade? One hit to the gemheart kills the Fused, while the Radiant is shrugging off otherwise deadly hits left to right.

Some Fused could use their Surges, or being more careful in how they fight. Or simply asking Thunderclast to catch the Radiant and (depending on the brand of Fused) help them to immobilize the Radiant.

Not to mention that Fused/Singers don't fight to kill Radiants necessarily, but to destroy human civilization outside of Shinovar (and by later desolation possibly there as well). Their goal is to kill and destroy population centers, knowledge centers etc.
This makes it a fight that raw strength won't win if you also don't have numbers.

And finally, Fused and Thunderclasts can get reborn over and over, whereas every lost 4th oath Radiant is lost for good, and new one has to be trained to replace them. So in a prolonged fight, Fused + Thunderclasts would win pretty much every time if human and Singer populations are the same.

Edited February 23, 2023 by therunner

[Frustration]

14 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

1) I was thinking that the "maybe 1" absolutely required Steelpushing, but the 2-3 might not. I don't think the Roseite case is relevant here because liquid Investiture was involved and that's crazy powerful.

Dor and Stormlight are basically the same thing.

Now the Dor is liquid rather than gas, but that's just a matter of density rather than power.

10 hours ago, TheOtherDave said:

Where's this hypothetical battle happening? If it's not on (or reasonably close to) Roshar, where would the spren to heal his armor come from? I'm pretty sure we haven't seen anything about that in any of the books yet... Is there a relevant WoB?

I don't think new spren are needed, as they are "corpses" when dead plate, but it's still around.

[alder24]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Frankly I think thousand Thunderclasts backed by ~100 Fused would be a problem for ~90 Radiants, even if they are 4th Oath.

I have to say I was not impressed with Thunderclasts during the Battle of Thaylen Field. Adolin alone was doing fairly well against one, and if all it takes to kill one of them is to shine light at it, I say they are pretty weak and disappointing. Now those from the Kholinar siege were just great and scary. But they were fighting just pikemen and walls, not Radiants. I love the image of Thunderclast knocking down towers and throwing huge rocks across the city.

10 hours ago, TheOtherDave said:

Where's this hypothetical battle happening? If it's not on (or reasonably close to) Roshar, where would the spren to heal his armor come from? I'm pretty sure we haven't seen anything about that in any of the books yet... Is there a relevant WoB?

Heal armor? It's the same sprens that composed the armor in the fisrt place, that would draw in Stormlight and heal their physical form. I don't think they need new sprens for every damaged section of the Shardplate.

In this type of discussion we usually assume both parties can leave their system with sprens and powers, they have typical access to a fuel (stormlight/metals) and stuff like this. It is more important to define the battlefield, as if this is happening on an open field, there is little to no metal there, and Mistborn have to drop coins, while in the city or urban area there are a lot of metal anchors for Mistborn to use.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

If a cadmium grenade can catch the windrunner, likely a new type of hazekiller round, then Wax could load a bunch of porjectiles into the buble to cause plate to crack, and can toss another cadmium grenade inside, and so on, grabing a grenade using bendalloy when it switches to the next one. A bullet enhanced by F-P, F-S, F-G, or F-I should be able to brake plate without the need for steelpushes, meaning it can be aluminum coated enoguh to not be RLed. And a regular bullet can have a backplate made to be Ironpulled off when the windrunner starts to infuse an object. If the gun is enhanced by F-G, much more gunpowder can be used. Aluminum Hemalurgy or A raysdium-gem bullets could be used for draining the radiant, and A-C and A-A Harmonium bullets can be used to disrupt the radiant as well. Fabrials aren't going to help the radiant near as much as Scadrian tech would help the windrunner. A F-G, F-S, F-Z, or F-N medalion would change the game, so I assume medalians aren't allowed.

[Frustration]

15 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

If a cadmium grenade can catch the windrunner, likely a new type of hazekiller round, then Wax could load a bunch of porjectiles into the buble to cause plate to crack, and can toss another cadmium grenade inside, and so on, grabing a grenade using bendalloy when it switches to the next one. A bullet enhanced by F-P, F-S, F-G, or F-I should be able to brake plate without the need for steelpushes, meaning it can be aluminum coated enoguh to not be RLed. And a regular bullet can have a backplate made to be Ironpulled off when the windrunner starts to infuse an object. If the gun is enhanced by F-G, much more gunpowder can be used. Aluminum Hemalurgy or A raysdium-gem bullets could be used for draining the radiant, and A-C and A-A Harmonium bullets can be used to disrupt the radiant as well. Fabrials aren't going to help the radiant near as much as Scadrian tech would help the windrunner. A F-G, F-S, F-Z, or F-N medalion would change the game, so I assume medalians aren't allowed.

Alright, this is a complete nitpick, but please write out the full name of Reverse lashings, and the metals. You can abbreviate feruchemy, and Allomancy, but F-G is really confusing.

17 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

If a cadmium grenade can catch the windrunner, likely a new type of hazekiller round, then Wax could load a bunch of porjectiles into the buble to cause plate to crack, and can toss another cadmium grenade inside, and so on, grabing a grenade using bendalloy when it switches to the next one.

The bubble will both deflect the bullets, making it much harder to hit the same section of plate, and prevent him from pushing on the bullets

19 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

A bullet enhanced by F-P, F-S, F-G, or F-I should be able to brake plate without the need for steelpushes, meaning it can be aluminum coated enoguh to not be RLed.

What do you mean by 'enhanced by'?

19 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

And a regular bullet can have a backplate made to be Ironpulled off when the windrunner starts to infuse an object.

If it can be pulled of like that it will separate when it leaves the barrel. And the lashing would still take effect before you could pull it off.

22 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

A raysdium-gem bullets could be used for draining the radiant,

1. Wax doesn't get Raysium.

2. That would break the gem.

23 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Fabrials aren't going to help the radiant near as much as Scadrian tech would help the windrunner.

There's a fabrial that can pull the blood out of anyone who goes near it.

Windrunner is safe inside of shardplate, but Wax just dies as soon as it gets close.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Alright, this is a complete nitpick, but please write out the full name of Reverse lashings, and the metals. You can abbreviate feruchemy, and Allomancy, but F-G is really confusing.

The bubble will both deflect the bullets, making it much harder to hit the same section of plate, and prevent him from pushing on the bullets

What do you mean by 'enhanced by'?

If it can be pulled of like that it will separate when it leaves the barrel. And the lashing would still take effect before you could pull it off.

1. Wax doesn't get Raysium.

2. That would break the gem.

There's a fabrial that can pull the blood out of anyone who goes near it.

Windrunner is safe inside of shardplate, but Wax just dies as soon as it gets close.

Very Well.

True, but if the radiant is trapped inside of cadmium bubbles indefinitely, the amount of projectiles is the only question.

Tapping the fuerochemical metal. I don't know if it could tap F-Pewter, but F-Steel, F-Gold, and F-Iron should all have drastic effects on damage to the plate. 

I don't see why it must be pulled off as it leaves the barrel, especially if it's being pushed on as it leaves.

True, but an offhand mention of that is the same as offhandingly mentioning that a shardblade can be a shardgun, and Wax looses. But that isn't allowed either. It was tied in with the H-Aluminum.

I forgot about that fabrial, but wax doesn't want to get close anyway.