The Sword of Harmony vs the Son of honor

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

True, but if the radiant is trapped inside of cadmium bubbles indefinitely, the amount of projectiles is the only question

Primer cubes only have so much charge. And with how fast Windrunners can move they'll still get out.

4 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Tapping the fuerochemical metal. I don't know if it could tap F-Pewter, but F-Steel, F-Gold, and F-Iron should all have drastic effects on damage to the plate.

You mean like with the machine the big airships use?

4 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

 I don't see why it must be pulled off as it leaves the barrel, especially if it's being pushed on as it leaves.

It would be mechanical separation. If you're pushing on it the bullet would spin once the reverse lashings takes effect.

6 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

True, but an offhand mention of that is the same as offhandingly mentioning that a shardblade can be a shardgun, and Wax looses. But that isn't allowed either. It was tied in with the H-Aluminum.

I'm afraid I don't understand entirely what you mean.

7 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Very Well.

Thanks.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Primer cubes only have so much charge. And with how fast Windrunners can move they'll still get out.

You mean like with the machine the big airships use?

It would be mechanical separation. If you're pushing on it the bullet would spin once the reverse lashings takes effect.

I'm afraid I don't understand entirely what you mean.

Thanks.

But he only needs 2 primer cubes and 1 primer bullet, because he can retrieve one cube once it runs out with bendalloy. And would they be able to get out before their plate cracks or even breaks?

Yes, but smaller.

I don't think the small momentum provided by .1 seconds or less of a Reverse Lashing on the back end would do enough to effect a bullet's path. It'd be more efficient to just dodge, if I understand things correctly and he could dodge. I still don't see why this wouldn't work. If you take a thumbtack, insert it into a bulletshaped piece of cork, then soulcast the cork into aluminum, and file the thumbtack, the aluminum should contenue when the tack is pulled backward, and the casing won't even touch the thumbtack. Most of the force would be on the thumbtack.

What I'm saying is I understand it's not allowed, and mentioned in a way akin to a Red Herring Fallacy with out actually using it as an argument.

Of course. I'll probably still use it in other conversations, as I've been doing that for months, so just remind me. I always spell out Brass, Bronze, Bendalloy, Copper, Cadmium, and Chromium be cause abbreviations are more complicated than useful. The rest of the base metals can be 1-letter.

[Frustration]

13 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

But he only needs 2 primer cubes and 1 primer bullet, because he can retrieve one cube once it runs out with bendalloy. And would they be able to get out before their plate cracks or even breaks?

Cadmium has a compression factor of ~8, and is roughly 15 feet across.

Windrunners have gone at speeds close to 370 mph.

They'd be out before Wax could reload.

15 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Yes, but smaller.

If they could make them smaller why didn't Whig have one?

15 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I don't think the small momentum provided by .1 seconds or less of a Reverse Lashing on the back end would do enough to effect a bullet's path. It'd be more efficient to just dodge,  If you take a thumbtack, insert it into a bulletshaped piece of cork, then soulcast the cork into aluminum, and file the thumbtack, the aluminum should contenue when the tack is pulled backward, and the casing won't even touch the thumbtack. Most of the force would be on the thumbtack.

If there is a pin that inserts into the aluminum, then the reverse lashing will rotate the entire bullet, which will both throw off the trajectory, and make pulling the back out harder.

17 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Of course. I'll probably still use it in other conversations, as I've been doing that for months, so just remind me. I always spell out Brass, Bronze, Bendalloy, Copper, Cadmium, and Chromium be cause abbreviations are more complicated than useful. The rest of the base metals can be 1-letter.

It's more the standardly accepted abbreviations.

A-gold is widely accepted, A-G is not.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Cadmium has a compression factor of ~8, and is roughly 15 feet across.

Windrunners have gone at speeds close to 370 mph.

They'd be out before Wax could reload.

If they could make them smaller why didn't Whig have one?

If there is a pin that inserts into the aluminum, then the reverse lashing will rotate the entire bullet, which will both throw off the trajectory, and make pulling the back out harder.

It's more the standardly accepted abbreviations.

A-gold is widely accepted, A-G is not.

The windrunner has to be going 370 before getting trapped in the bubble to be out that fast. The time it takes to build up that momentum, considering the bubbles will be "refilled" in the direction your traveling, would be enough for Wax to empty out several chambers, especially if he uses a speed buble himself since aim doesn't matter.

I don't remmebr the Whig, but They haven't made blood attractors either. The bullet doesn't need much charge - the bullet could be mostly ettmetal. And the size of the bullet matters less if it's tapping F-steel.

I don't see how .1sec of .7g acceleration on a bullet will effect it by significant amounts. The pull itself would also help prevent rotation. Remember, it's not reactive to the lashign taking effect, it's reactive for the windrunner reaching to touch something.

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

The windrunner has to be going 370 before getting trapped in the bubble to be out that fast. The time it takes to build up that momentum, considering the bubbles will be "refilled" in the direction your traveling, would be enough for Wax to empty out several chambers, especially if he uses a speed buble himself since aim doesn't matter.

Wax would be too weak to have a noticeable compression factor

9 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I don't remmebr the Whig,

That's the lifeboat Wax rides up to the temple

10 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

They haven't made blood attractors either.

They have, WoR page 993

11 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I don't remmebr the Whig, but They haven't made blood attractors either. The bullet doesn't need much charge - the bullet could be mostly ettmetal. And the size of the bullet matters less if it's tapping F-steel.

F-steel is muscle speed, not physical speed, so that wouldn't do anything.

12 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I don't see how .1sec of .7g acceleration on a bullet will effect it by significant amounts. The pull itself would also help prevent rotation. Remember, it's not reactive to the lashign taking effect, it's reactive for the windrunner reaching to touch something.

Reverse lashings are much stronger than gravity.

In order to pull on arrows, or heck snapping Lezian's head off requires orders of magnitude more power.

And they can make a reverse lashing with their feet, so they don't need to reach.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Wax would be too weak to have a noticeable compression factor

That's the lifeboat Wax rides up to the temple

They have, WoR page 993

F-steel is muscle speed, not physical speed, so that wouldn't do anything.

Reverse lashings are much stronger than gravity.

In order to pull on arrows, or heck snapping Lezian's head off requires orders of magnitude more power.

And they can make a reverse lashing with their feet, so they don't need to reach.

It doesn't have to be charged by him, and can be (theoretically) charged with durilium.

Ah

I don't have the books, can you describe the scene? (I believe you, just want to actually remember it)

Where is that stated (I know it's true for Pewter)

Do we know that? He can stack Reverse Lashings.

I was counting "Landing" in reaching, considering the windrunner never wants to be off the ground except for Lashings. If they get near a solid object, and the tack - push method is what your using, you stop firing and switch until they no longer within danger of quickly Reverse Lashing your bullet. It may even be able to trick them into reverse lashing a primer bullet, which would make bubling them while slow much easier.

[Frustration]

Just now, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I don't have the books, can you describe the scene? (I believe you, just want to actually remember it)

Navani sets up a fabrial to draw water away so they can use bows, and thinks to herself "They'd finally gotten it to stop sucking the blood out of anyone who came near it"

1 minute ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Where is that stated (I know it's true for Pewter)

Here

Spoiler

Brainless

So if you jumped off a high place and you were a steel Feruchemist, could you store the speed of you falling?

Brandon Sanderson

No, because-- I'm going to say you need to be moving under your own-- because otherwise it's all relative, right? If you're falling, it's no different than if you're traveling on the planet or things like that.

Glamdring804

So it's related more to muscle contractions.

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitantly* Yes, kind of. Feruchemy bends all sorts of weird things, ever since I started doing the weight one. So, yes.

Brainless

The thing about Feruchemy is it feels like you could be like a savant short of it, but it would be much more minor than something like a savant for-- It would be more things like what you could get for exercise and stuff like that.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Yeah, that's possible.

MisCon 2018 (May 26, 2018)

 

3 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Do we know that?

Szeth uses one to pull arrows to his lashing, which isn't possible on 1g.

3 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

He can stack Reverse Lashings.

He can?

[lacrossedeamon]

On 2/22/2023 at 11:59 AM, cometaryorbit said:

3. OK, here I strongly disagree. Iron/Steel has the disadvantage of needing anchors, but Windrunners *do* feel g-forces (yeah, by RL physics they shouldn't, but they do).

And Mistborn Wax has pewter Allomancy, so he can take a lot of g-force. Also, Steelpushes/Ironpulls tend to be short-burst (unlike Lashings) and the human body can take a lot more g-force in short bursts than over time. So I think he's actually likely to be less troubled by g-forces than a Windrunner.

(Now, Kaladin won't crush himself because of Stormlight healing, but that doesn't mean he can function well enough to fight under high g-forces. Stormlight oxygenates him without need to breathe, but that won't give him the strength to move his limbs at high g. He'd have to constantly cancel Lashings and re-Lash to move at really high accelerations and still fight. I think there's a reason we don't generally see x10 or x20 Lashings used to fly.)

 

On 2/22/2023 at 3:34 PM, therunner said:

I know Windrunners feel g-forces, even though they reaaally should not, however Mistborn/Mistings should definately experience them (their powers generate regular forces).

Technically Kaladin only feels g-force because he thinks he should like cognitive Kelsier with pain. So it should be possible to change that with better training and understanding.

[Frustration]

32 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

 

Technically Kaladin only feels g-force because he thinks he should like cognitive Kelsier with pain. So it should be possible to change that with better training and understanding.

Are you sure?

I'd have to wonder where he learned about g forces in that case.

[lacrossedeamon]

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Are you sure?

I'd have to wonder where he learned about g forces in that case.

Isn't that what the WOB states? The narrative reasoning g-force was there because the audience would expect it and it was in universe reasoning was because Kaladin expected it?

I don't think he knows about g-force per se but he would understand the basics what a change in acceleration would feel like I assume.

[therunner]

12 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Do we know that? He can stack Reverse Lashings.

I was counting "Landing" in reaching, considering the windrunner never wants to be off the ground except for Lashings. If they get near a solid object, and the tack - push method is what your using, you stop firing and switch until they no longer within danger of quickly Reverse Lashing your bullet. It may even be able to trick them into reverse lashing a primer bullet, which would make bubling them while slow much easier.

'Stacking' is only for basic Lashings, neither Full Lashings nor Reverse Lashings are described in such terms.

The two primary examples of Reverse Lashings are

1. Pulling hundreds of arrows into a single shield from quite a wide area.
2. Tearing a head off of a Fused.

The first one is already stronger than a gravity, though exactly how much is difficult to estimate. However it also shows that if your intent is 'pull bullets' it would pull all bullets, so you could not trick them into reverse lashing primer bullet instead of the proper one.

The second one has already been discussed in this thread, and the acceleration necessary is ~50 000 g's . The same would be felt by the bullet (if mass of object does not change the force felt) or the bullet would experience 100 g's (if the mass of object does affect it).

Either way, Reverse Lashings are faar stronger than gravity, easily ten to hundred fold, possibly thousand fold. As a result, applying this for 0.1 seconds (time to travel ~20-30 meters) to the bullet would impart upon it speed between 100m/s and 50 000 m/s towards source of reverse lashing, more then enough to force the bullet to completely miss (the deviation of the bullet would be between 5 meters and 2.5 km )

TLDR: Non-aluminum bullets + reverse lashings = miss. And any mechanism that would allow Wax to push the bullet, would also allow Reverse Lashing to draw the bullet off course.

3 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Isn't that what the WOB states? The narrative reasoning g-force was there because the audience would expect it and it was in universe reasoning was because Kaladin expected it?

I don't think he knows about g-force per se but he would understand the basics what a change in acceleration would feel like I assume.

That would be an interesting explanation. However, I am not sure if Kaladin would ever experience such accelerations to be familiar with it, though perhaps it is sufficient if he experienced something like it, even if in far weaker form.

Explanation like this would allow Brandon to 'level-up' Windrunners/Skybreakers later on, if he so chose.

[lacrossedeamon]

The discussion is now over. (Although this is technically Kaladin v Vin)

[therunner]

36 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

The discussion is now over. (Although this is technically Kaladin v Vin)

and yet the virgin Windrunner beats the Chad Mistborn

Goes to show virgin power is real

[lacrossedeamon]

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

and yet the virgin Windrunner beats the Chad Mistborn

Goes to show virgin power is real

If Kaladin was as effective as a Mistborn he would would have taken up Honor and killed Odium by now.

[therunner]

54 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

If Kaladin was as effective as a Mistborn he would would have taken up Honor and killed Odium by now.

Now now, Kaladin does not have advantage of being focal point of millenia long plan orchestrated by a Shard, unlike the Mistborn in question
Or having the luxury of being trained in his powers by someone else

And also, his series arc is not yet over, so let us not get ahead of ourselves.

[alder24]

8 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Technically Kaladin only feels g-force because he thinks he should like cognitive Kelsier with pain. So it should be possible to change that with better training and understanding.

Please always provide sources for claims like this. I can't find anything:

Spoiler

shinarit?

There is that scene where Kaladin takes a sharp turn at high speeds and he almost blacks out. That is normal for jet pilots, since they experience high G forces when their airplane tries to accelerate them by their backs and bottoms.

But Lashing doesn't work that way, it generates fake gravity. Accelerating your whole body shouldn't cause you anything, you can't even feel it.

Is this something that is an admitted physics hiccup or I misunderstood this kind of Investiture usage?

Brandon Sanderson

This one is actually in the process of flux, as I do more research on the effects of acceleration (including interviews with fighter pilots, which has been fun.) Basically, I realized I needed to beef up my understanding of all this, and then make some decisions on exactly how this all works, because I've been relying on instinct too much in some of these sequences.

So...that's a RAFO, I'm afraid. More because I'm still tweaking some of the little details of how I want this all to work. (In ways that become increasingly relevant as I look forward toward things like Windrunners in space.)

There are a ton of details to consider, even if I eventually hand-wave some of it with the magic. (For example, the heart pumping blood in a high-g environment. How does that interact, if at all, with stormlight? And the direct oxygenation of the brain implied by not needing to breathe while holding stormlight...)

We have several very large math-ish projects going on behind the scenes.

Phoenixdown

I think it depends on if lashing independently impacts each atom within your body simultaneously, or if it is only a subset.

Brandon Sanderson

There's one important fact you're not considering, but which is vital: reader expectation.

One of the questions I have to ask myself is this: What will the reader expect to happen? How will they expect to feel? Granted, none of us have ever flown like this before--but we generally imagine similar things, similar feelings.

As a writer, one thing I need to balance is when I go against reader expectations and when I don't. Going against the expectations can be interesting, but often takes a large burden of words and explanation to keep reminding them something is not how they'd imagine it to be.

For example, it took a relatively large amount of reader attention (and explanation) to keep reminding people in Mistborn that plants weren't green and the sky wasn't blue. In many ways, making something new (like a chull) is easier on readers than making something familiar into something strange (like the horses in Dragonsteel, which were smaller than Earth horses--and kept causing confusion problems in my alpha readers.)

As annoying as this example can me, this is why Lucas had sound, fire, gravity, etc in space. Starships banking in formation felt real to the viewers, even if it didn't make sense in context. I hope to not go that far, but these questions are something in my mind.

I try to be careful not to remove the sensations of magic, in order to keep the movements of characters grounded. Windrunning has left me having to decide how far I want to go with things like this, in order to preserve the visceral feelings for the reader.

General Reddit 2018 (June 6, 2018)

 

[Frustration]

11 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Isn't that what the WOB states? The narrative reasoning g-force was there because the audience would expect it and it was in universe reasoning was because Kaladin expected it?

I don't think he knows about g-force per se but he would understand the basics what a change in acceleration would feel like I assume.

It says the narative reason is that the reader expects it, nothing about Kaladin's preception.

5 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

If Kaladin was as effective as a Mistborn he would would have taken up Honor and killed Odium by now.

Yes, let's assume it was skill that allowed in to do that, and not Preservation chosing her.

Let's also ignore that it took Vin over two years in books to do that, and Kaladin has only been doing this for one.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Navani sets up a fabrial to draw water away so they can use bows, and thinks to herself "They'd finally gotten it to stop sucking the blood out of anyone who came near it"

Here

 

Szeth uses one to pull arrows to his lashing, which isn't possible on 1g.

He can?

Thanks

The wording's a little iffy, but we can roll with F-steel doesn't do anything for bullets for now. (Mussel speed shouldn't effect burn rate, but F-Steel does)

True

Why wouldn't one be able to? It's the same concept of stacking Regular lashings. In the battle for the tower he explodes with a bunch of light and pulls a bunch of arrows, but when doing it incognito fewer arrows are effected and less strongly - the Flash had large impact force for each arrow, while the bridge barely flinched. If Reverse lashings are a combo of a full lashing and a basic lashing, than why wouldn't it inherit the stackability of the basic lashing?

7 hours ago, therunner said:

Either way, Reverse Lashings are faar stronger than gravity, easily ten to hundred fold, possibly thousand fold. As a result, applying this for 0.1 seconds (time to travel ~20-30 meters)

I obviously was filling a tinmind with my sence of time, because I put .1 second for maybe a few inches. Don't know what I was thinking, as it would totally pull it off course like that if it applied for that long. But it wouldn't even apply that long, since the Ironpull starts before the lashing.

7 hours ago, therunner said:

However it also shows that if your intent is 'pull bullets' it would pull all bullets, so you could not trick them into reverse lashing primer bullet instead of the proper one.

I meant trick them into pulling a primer instead of not pulling the primer, not instead of the other bullet.

[cometaryorbit]

On 2/23/2023 at 2:56 AM, therunner said:

The major problem with g-forces is that they cause damage to the body, something which Stormlight will heal immediately, hence g-forces not being much of a problem for Windrunner.

I some previous thread (possibly Mistborn vs Windrunner?) I have done some quick comparison using Vin as example, typical push on a coin (since most Mistborn cannot carefully change strength of push outside of flaring) over 50 feet can be replicated by ~2.5 lashings for first quarter of trajectory and then dismissing it, trivial accomplishment for Windrunner.
(as a sidenote, this then also shows that the initial strength of the push on the coin is probably less then ~3 g, since Vin continued to push on the coin the entire time).

Also, SA5 spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

In the first and second Kaladin chapters we see him literally casually float around finding it more natural than walking, demonstrating control and maneuverability faar beyond what any Mistborn ever shown, or even what Mistborn with F-iron could achieve.
At that point he is not thinking about dismissing and placing lashings, he just flies around as he needs. So after 2 years it is natural enough to do it lcourse)

Except that Wax's body could not take 15 g*s, still being damaged by the forces acting upon it. Him being lighter won't help at all (outside of having easier time moving his arms around, though we have never seen Windrunner having this particular issue).
Not to mention that considering the estimated strength of steelpush from coin, Wax has no way to generate 15 g's outside of using Duralumin.

EDIT: And Kaladin in the arena fight applied 'many' Lashings to himself, enough to crack Shardplate, despite falling only short distance (short enough that he thought no one could notice what he did) While we don't have precise numbers, the force of impact must have been greater than Shardplate simply falling, so he had to have lashed himself at least ~10-12 times, and possibly much more, to generate sufficient force over such short distance. (it is frustrating not having exact numbers to work off ).

[...]

The key part there is if they had enough Light.
Sure, 3rd Oath Windrunner with full bag of spheres can fly non-stop for ~12 hours as hard as they can lash themselves, but in a fight Stormlight would be used more (for healing the Radiant and/or the plate, applying the powers etc.). So all of them would probably run out after several hours, rendering them effectively powerless.

[...]

Not to mention that Fused/Singers don't fight to kill Radiants necessarily

Nah, g forces will incapacitate someone due to weight way before they do real damage.

Wax's Push strength is just as high when he weighs 18 pounds as when he weighs 180. So if he's launching at 2 g normally, he can do 20 at low weight - with the same Push strength! And maybe 200+ with duralumin (though he'd need duralumin pewter to survive that one).

Mistborn + Feruchemical iron has vastly, vastly higher mobility than just a Mistborn.

(I do think Push strength is generally higher than you're assuming. "Continuous" Pushes are often actually quick on-and-off, I think. 3 g for Vin seems very low; she weighs 100lb at most and is an unusually strong Allomancer. I think Kelsier's jumps are well beyond what say 250lb of force would do for a man his size. He's pretty tall.)

Wax's body can take 15 g in a brief burst, sure. Even without pewter... briefly taking 15 gs (we're talking bursts less than a second) is possible for a perfectly normal human.

Human g-force tolerance in short bursts is a lot higher than generally assumed. (42 g for 0.9 seconds has actually been done, but while there was no permanent damage, there were temporary effects significant enough to really mess up a fight, e.g. burst blood vessels in the eyes.)

Shardplate isn't *that* tough. Kaladin may well have used 10 Lashings there - it's totally possible, I'm only arguing that really highly stacked Lashings are generally not used for flight for practical reasons, not that it's beyond Windrunner abilities in theory- but hammers and such can crack it.

--

OK, but "several hours"? There aren't enough Fused in existence to make a fight against 100 4th ideal Radiants last that long, IMO.

--

That's why the really smart strategy would be to put all humans in or very near the 10 Oathgate cities, using Soulcasting for waste disposal etc. Then the Fused can't get at humans without dealing with Radiants.

Sure the Fused respawn, but they need singer volunteers for that. How many horribly one sided defeats in a row before the Singers just give up seeing these punching bags as gods?

In that setup, you won't get many Radiant losses at all. They have Plate plus their own healing plus backup from other Radiants with Regrowth.

---

On 2/23/2023 at 6:36 AM, Frustration said:

Dor and Stormlight are basically the same thing.

Now the Dor is liquid rather than gas, but that's just a matter of density rather than power.

Well I think density is power here - a person can only hold so much Stormlight (Szeth says he's at the limit a couple times). Liquid Investiture is really strong.

And if there isn't a specific difference, I think it's because it's "purified" Dor so almost generic Investiture- Well of Ascension liquid doesn't do the same thing as Mist, so state can matter even for the same type of Investiture.

On 2/23/2023 at 6:58 AM, alder24 said:

I have to say I was not impressed with Thunderclasts during the Battle of Thaylen Field. Adolin alone was doing fairly well against one, and if all it takes to kill one of them is to shine light at it, I say they are pretty weak and disappointing. Now those from the Kholinar siege were just great and scary. But they were fighting just pikemen and walls, not Radiants. I love the image of Thunderclast knocking down towers and throwing huge rocks across the city.

Heal armor? It's the same sprens that composed the armor in the fisrt place, that would draw in Stormlight and heal their physical form. I don't think they need new sprens for every damaged section of the Shardplate.

In this type of discussion we usually assume both parties can leave their system with sprens and powers, they have typical access to a fuel (stormlight/metals) and stuff like this. It is more important to define the battlefield, as if this is happening on an open field, there is little to no metal there, and Mistborn have to drop coins, while in the city or urban area there are a lot of metal anchors for Mistborn to use.

Yeah, Thunderclasts are more siege weapons. They're great at that, but how is one going to actually kill a Radiant with mobility powers + enough healing that one hit isn't fatal? and over half the Orders have mobility powers (Gravitation, Abrasion, or Transportation).

Edited February 24, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Why wouldn't one be able to? It's the same concept of stacking Regular lashings. In the battle for the tower he explodes with a bunch of light and pulls a bunch of arrows, but when doing it incognito fewer arrows are effected and less strongly - the Flash had large impact force for each arrow, while the bridge barely flinched. If Reverse lashings are a combo of a full lashing and a basic lashing, than why wouldn't it inherit the stackability of the basic lashing?

It's not a combination of basic and full lashings, it's a combination of Gravitation and Adhesion. Why would it have stackability?

7 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I meant trick them into pulling a primer instead of not pulling the primer, not instead of the other bullet.

Harmonium would be too weak to function as a bullet. It would deform once fired, and then its not going to shoot as far as you would need it to.

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Shardplate isn't *that* tough. Kaladin may well have used 10 Lashings there - it's totally possible, I'm only arguing that really highly stacked Lashings are generally not used for flight for practical reasons, not that it's beyond Windrunner abilities in theory- but hammers and such can crack it.

Shardplate is that tough.

The closest we get to regular hammers breaking plate is when warform parshendi surrounded and beat on Sadeas for several minutes, but he was still fine afterwards.

6 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

And if there isn't a specific difference, I think it's because it's "purified" Dor so almost generic Investiture- Well of Ascension liquid doesn't do the same thing as Mist, so state can matter even for the same type of Investiture.

Mists can do the same thing, it just takes more of them to do it.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's not a combination of basic and full lashings, it's a combination of Gravitation and Adhesion. Why would it have stackability?

Harmonium would be too weak to function as a bullet. It would deform once fired, and then its not going to shoot as far as you would need it to.

Shardplate is that tough.

The closest we get to regular hammers breaking plate is when warform parshendi surrounded and beat on Sadeas for several minutes, but he was still fine afterwards.

Mists can do the same thing, it just takes more of them to do it.

Adhesion, used physically, manifests the same in both orders, and Gravitation is almost the same in both orders and fused, but is stackable in all 3 cases. For Reverse lashings to be useful, they have to have greater gravitation than .7gs. We all agree that. I postulate that it's because it stacks like basic, your postulating it doesn't like Full Lashings, and it's strength is static. Either can be correct, or the strength could be based on amount of surface/mass infused, or by the stormlight, or based off of the object and stormlight only determines length of time. And I don't know if it really matters, because in any case he should be able to get a high enough gravity to pull a regular buller off track. I doubt it, but if a halfborn can push/pull on their metalminds without (as much) difficulty, that would provide a method of resistance, especially with durilium. Is there a WoB/scene confirming this or only about general metalminds?

It doesn't need to function as a full bullet, only a core or as a projectile attracted to a reverse lashing. The main question is how small a primer projectile can be made with current technology, since we only see hand size cubes. A hand cannon could be used to launch a spherical one, but that would be noticeably different, and likely be unaffected by a Reverse Lashing targeting bullets, but a bullet could be inserted inside to make it attracted.

Question, if Wax threw a bullet, and it was pulled by a Reverse Lashing, but he aimed it using Iron and Steel, then hit the pin when it's only a footish away from Kal, would the bullet make it out of orbit and hit? I could totally see windrunner rounds for mistborn actually being bullets with multiple casings.

I wonder if a Trellium bullet passing through solid Harmonium would cause a reaction, because if so, he could coat a Trellium bullet in harmonium. When it impacts, even if just the Reverse lashing, should be enough to damage the plate into cracking after the second one.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I doubt it, but if a halfborn can push/pull on their metalminds without (as much) difficulty, that would provide a method of resistance, especially with durilium. Is there a WoB/scene confirming this or only about general metalminds?

I can't find anything about pushing your own metalminds.

4 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

It doesn't need to function as a full bullet, only a core or as a projectile attracted to a reverse lashing. The main question is how small a primer projectile can be made with current technology, since we only see hand size cubes. A hand cannon could be used to launch a spherical one, but that would be noticeably different, and likely be unaffected by a Reverse Lashing targeting bullets, but a bullet could be inserted inside to make it attracted.

Cubes are more than just harmonium as well. You could theoretically use them as incendiary rounds, but I don't think you could get slowness bullets.

5 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Question, if Wax threw a bullet, and it was pulled by a Reverse Lashing, but he aimed it using Iron and Steel, then hit the pin when it's only a footish away from Kal, would the bullet make it out of orbit and hit? I could totally see windrunner rounds for mistborn actually being bullets with multiple casings.

It would probably be so low when it got close enough to actually hit them that it would deal minimal damage.

6 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I wonder if a Trellium bullet passing through solid Harmonium would cause a reaction, because if so, he could coat a Trellium bullet in harmonium. When it impacts, even if just the Reverse lashing, should be enough to damage the plate into cracking after the second one.

It needs that partial division that Electrolysis provides

[IlstrawberrySeed]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

I can't find anything about pushing your own metalminds.

Cubes are more than just harmonium as well. You could theoretically use them as incendiary rounds, but I don't think you could get slowness bullets.

It would probably be so low when it got close enough to actually hit them that it would deal minimal damage.

It needs that partial division that Electrolysis provides

Figured.

True. Would you explain your reasoning?

Figures. Maybe if it was a thug/bloodmaker round, but not near enough even then to crack without true bombardment that they would dodge.

Unfortunate, as there is no other way to provide that with their tech level AFAIK. At least other than F-Brass, which isn't combat relevant.

Assuming no savanthood (other than A-Steel), no benefit from A-electrum (except to play with his fortune and think faster), no magitech rounds, and no medalians, than the only way I can see him winning is if he can use alomantic grenades to his benifit, whether Cadmium, Chromium, Aluminum, Necrosil, or Durilium. In theory, a double cube that uses aluminum and ___ would have to be dodged, not Lashed, but it would be dificult to get it in range of Kal. However, if one can slip a cube into a Reverse lashing's target, to an object near him, then it might be able to catch him.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Would you explain your reasoning?

make a bullet with both harmonium and water components so that they mix when the bullet hits.

[therunner]

5 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Nah, g forces will incapacitate someone due to weight way before they do real damage.

If in e.g. plane sure, but have you seen people skydiving? No limitation on movement there, and Lashings are that except faster. No Radiant ever complains about having more difficulty moving their body.
And even if there was, from 4th Oath on they have Shardplate providing them 15-20x fold strength increase, so they should be ok movement wise for quite a while.

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Wax's Push strength is just as high when he weighs 18 pounds as when he weighs 180. So if he's launching at 2 g normally, he can do 20 at low weight - with the same Push strength! And maybe 200+ with duralumin (though he'd need duralumin pewter to survive that one).
Mistborn + Feruchemical iron has vastly, vastly higher mobility than just a Mistborn.

Ah, smart point!
Still does not make them as maneuverable as Windrunner (lacking in directionality, and the acceleration can be matched by Windrunner), though it does make them more efficient Investiture wise.

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(I do think Push strength is generally higher than you're assuming. "Continuous" Pushes are often actually quick on-and-off, I think. 3 g for Vin seems very low; she weighs 100lb at most and is an unusually strong Allomancer. I think Kelsier's jumps are well beyond what say 250lb of force would do for a man his size. He's pretty tall.)

Vin took several moments to do 50 feet vertical jump, while pushing continuously on coin (she does state that). Since by then she did not yet learn to flare or regulate her strength, we can take that to be the baseline burn strength of Steel. She had time to note how the line is getting thinner before reaching top (and few more thoughts), so conservatively we can take it took at minimum ~2 seconds.
If her push was at 3g's for very early part (i.e. around first 0.2 seconds, after accounting for gravity), she would already attain speed of 6 m/s and would continue to accelerate from there until the push decayed enough. Even if the push afterwards only cancelled gravity, she would reach the top in ~2.5 seconds. So actually if push allows her to accelerate at 3 g's that is about as fast as your assumption for on-off push would be, and I mildly overestimated how strong the initial push would have to be


Thought I now realize my mistake, Mistborn have to overcome gravitation, unlike Windrunners. So Vin would be launching at 4g's for regular push, which for vertical jump would result in ~3g's of acceleration.


On Kelsier, 250 pounds of force is about ~1100 Newtons, which for an adult man is little under 1.5 g's, so actually less then what I stated. I would put the force Mistborn regularly exert for basic push at ~700 pounds of force.

All together I think this is a strong case that push on a coin on regular burn cannot provide more than ~4g's of acceleration, most likely being somewhere around 3-3.5 g's.
Flare then would push it up near 4.5-5 g's. This would be acceleration ceiling of regular Mistings and Mistborn, and would be lower in Era 2 (due to weakening of allomancy).
 

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Wax's body can take 15 g in a brief burst, sure. Even without pewter... briefly taking 15 gs (we're talking bursts less than a second) is possible for a perfectly normal human.

Human g-force tolerance in short bursts is a lot higher than generally assumed. (42 g for 0.9 seconds has actually been done, but while there was no permanent damage, there were temporary effects significant enough to really mess up a fight, e.g. burst blood vessels in the eyes.)

So you are saying Windrunner can take 42 g's easily without any side effects, since those would be healed immediately?

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Shardplate isn't *that* tough. Kaladin may well have used 10 Lashings there - it's totally possible, I'm only arguing that really highly stacked Lashings are generally not used for flight for practical reasons, not that it's beyond Windrunner abilities in theory- but hammers and such can crack it.

Shardplate is that tough. Multiple warform parhsendi wailing on it with hammers for minutes did not break through, and those are 2-3x as strong as human.

The only more resistant materials known in Cosmere are Nightblood, Honorblades, Shardblades, and maybe Roseite fueled by purified Dor.

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OK, but "several hours"? There aren't enough Fused in existence to make a fight against 100 4th ideal Radiants last that long, IMO.

Yes several hours. If Fused fight smart, they won't try to kill Radiants, only survive until Radiants run out of light. They would be sandbagging basically.

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That's why the really smart strategy would be to put all humans in or very near the 10 Oathgate cities, using Soulcasting for waste disposal etc. Then the Fused can't get at humans without dealing with Radiants.

And how do you put all humans there? Roshar is gigantic continent, and you have very little means of travel, or of locating villages.

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Sure the Fused respawn, but they need singer volunteers for that. How many horribly one sided defeats in a row before the Singers just give up seeing these punching bags as gods?

Well, clearly a lot, since Desolations only stopped when Taln decided that getting tortured for 4000 years is a good idea, and the last few were effectively back to back with barely a year of break.

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Yeah, Thunderclasts are more siege weapons. They're great at that, but how is one going to actually kill a Radiant with mobility powers + enough healing that one hit isn't fatal? and over half the Orders have mobility powers (Gravitation, Abrasion, or Transportation).

They could catch them off-guard, or simply make the situation more chaotic to increase chances some Fused will land a good hit.

4 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Adhesion, used physically, manifests the same in both orders, and Gravitation is almost the same in both orders and fused, but is stackable in all 3 cases. For Reverse lashings to be useful, they have to have greater gravitation than .7gs. We all agree that. I postulate that it's because it stacks like basic, your postulating it doesn't like Full Lashings, and it's strength is static. Either can be correct, or the strength could be based on amount of surface/mass infused, or by the stormlight, or based off of the object and stormlight only determines length of time. And I don't know if it really matters, because in any case he should be able to get a high enough gravity to pull a regular buller off track.

No one is arguing that strenght of Reverse Lashing is static, only that the stacking terminology does not apply as there is no equivalent of 'one Lashing'.
The strength seems to vary per amount of Stormlight, and Intent.

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It doesn't need to function as a full bullet, only a core or as a projectile attracted to a reverse lashing. The main question is how small a primer projectile can be made with current technology, since we only see hand size cubes. A hand cannon could be used to launch a spherical one, but that would be noticeably different, and likely be unaffected by a Reverse Lashing targeting bullets, but a bullet could be inserted inside to make it attracted.

That assumes that primer cubes can be miniaturized, and that the mechanism would survive the quite violent acceleration of being fired from a gun.
And why would it not be affected by Reverse Lashing targeting bullets? It is still a bullet (i.e. projectile expelled from firearm).

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Question, if Wax threw a bullet, and it was pulled by a Reverse Lashing, but he aimed it using Iron and Steel, then hit the pin when it's only a footish away from Kal, would the bullet make it out of orbit and hit? I could totally see windrunner rounds for mistborn actually being bullets with multiple casings.

Doubtful he could time it right, the speed bullet could attain from Reverse Lashing would be magnitude more than his reflexes could allow for.
And even then, he would have no way to ensure the bullet is oriented properly, to be in direction of Windrunner.

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I wonder if a Trellium bullet passing through solid Harmonium would cause a reaction, because if so, he could coat a Trellium bullet in harmonium. When it impacts, even if just the Reverse lashing, should be enough to damage the plate into cracking after the second one.

That would not do anything, the reaction requires Harmonium to be nearly melted from electricity, and polarized/pulled apart.
Regularly they just repulse each other.

Edited February 24, 2023 by therunner