The Sword of Harmony vs the Son of honor

[lacrossedeamon]

8 hours ago, therunner said:

Aluminum - useless in combat

I think burning Aluminum can also be used to disrupt any Surges that affect you directly. Like if a lashing was applied to you or someone attempted to soulcast you etc. You will of course need to replenish your own metals after that though so there is a trade off but the ability to no sell an enemy’s power could give you the upper hand.

8 hours ago, therunner said:

Bendalloy - useful in combat against ranged attacks

Also useful in separating a combatant from allies

[Frustration]

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

Who are you to question the Words of Brandon??

Did I question it's validity?

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

No, it's the first time Leras saw one of them being killed with style.

Aside from spinning metal rods, which is not what Leras was referring to, there isn't any style to go with it.

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

Mistborn has 16 powers, maybe not as strong in raw investiture like Radiant, but still 16. 

There's a saying, and I have no idea who said it but it goes like this "I do not fear the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks one time, I do fear the man who has practiced one kick ten thousand times"

In other words versatility makes something already good better, otherwise it just gives you more ways to fail.

In chess the most versatile piece is the pawn, as it can become most of the other pieces. However, aside from the king, every other piece is better in just about every conceivable way. In fact the Pawn's only redeeming trait is that when it reaches the other end of the board it's not a pawn any longer.

 

Alternatively you might have heard about competitive Pokemon. In single battles on Pokemon Showdown, a pokemon is placed into a tier based on how much it is used. And because people play to win, the most used Pokemon are the better ones. Ditto, Smeargol, and Mew are about the most versatile pokemon there are. And aside from Mew, they all suck. With Mew being in the highest tier of Standard play in sword and shield. However, compare that to Deoxys-attack. One of the least versatile pokemon, but with the same typing and stat total as mew. Deoxys-attack dies to almost any attack due to its defenses being so low. But it is banned from standard play, because it is such a good attacker that it doesn't need to be good defensively.

 

Now I know these are games not real combat, but my point is that versatility is not a desirable attribute unto itself.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Frustration

[therunner]

17 hours ago, alder24 said:

Until we have another WoB, specifying how they were killed, I'm willing to believe that Mistborn were able to kill Inquisitors in 1 on 1 fight. It didn't happen often, however TLR wasn't fazed by it, but it still could have happened. Mistborn used to be much stronger than Kelsier, and there was 1000 years for it to happen at least one more time.

But Leras was phased by it, so it is extraordinary circumstance.
TLR was not phased because one dead Inquisitor would not really change anything. Indeed if Vin did not draw on Mists TLR would wipe out the rebels easily by himself.

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Tin is constantly used by Mistborn to prevent them from going unconscious, and to clear the mind. I would say it's quite useful.

Tin is occasionally used for that purpose, but at the same time it makes you more susceptible to sensory overload.
Using tin to stay unconscious is like pinching yourself to stay awake, strong input to overrride other stuff.
It is handy, but not exactly too far out of ordinary, combat wise.

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Being able to hide themself and make a surprise attack during a fight is useful. Being able to detect usage of investiture is also useful. Dumad showed this.

But Mistborn cannot hide themselves, only hide they are using Investiture (and only if the opponent is weaker then they are), which against most opponents is pointless since they don't have ways to detect it (and in 1-1 fight it is even more pointless).

It is useful in locating foe if you don't know where they are, in open combat utility is limited. You will notice Shardbearer coming at you anyway.

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I do agree, they're not the best soldiers. But in most cases we talk about them in 1 on 1 scenarios. Here they can do much more.

In 1-1 Mistborn will lose to just 3rd Oath Windrunner. Here we are talking about extraordinarily weak Mistborn vs 4th Oath Radiant, even worse scenario.

And the comment about them being not good soldiers was made in reference to somehow who disputed that. I just pointed out that while in pre-Industrial era Mistborn powers are a nightmare on battlefield, after Aluminum becomes widespread and weapons become more destructive, their powers are limited and and their squishines makes using Mistborn as soldiers a waste. Their skill set is simply no longer suitable for that. Now if you were to give them/implant in them a bunch of charged Unkeyed Goldmines, that would improve their status.

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He faces aluminum guns regularly, and during TLM more than ever. Whole army of Set in the Shaw was armed with aluminum. Mistborn can do the same trick with bubbles.

It is true that in the Shaw all Set had them, and Wax is described as hiding/avoiding the bullets. However, that is such a plot armor feat comparable to Kaladin in RoW One lucky bullet could have killed Wax then and there (or really even grande with Aluminum shrapnel would have killed him).
Once opponents have aluminum bullets, steel bubble won't do a thing, and the speed bubbles can potentially be popped (on this let's agree to disagree, personally I doubt that Mistborn would get literally impregnable shield, every power in Cosmere can be overcome somehow).

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But they aren't the size of a car. I'm not saying they can't be hit, but only that Wax proved it to be hard. 

Yes, but again, Wax is a Crasher, not just Coinshot, which improves his maneuverability considerably.

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I don't. But I think you might be correct with them leaving the bubble, it happened. But I still remember a few situations where Wax described bullets passing through the bubble.

I personally recall only one, in which the bullet was deflected wildly and they quickly left bubble and re positioned.
But this would not be an issue for the Cadmium/Bendalloy shield.

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In the WoB Brandon was asked about the aluminum tube, and the tube is empty inside, so the bubble can't fully close. The bullet is probably too small to pop the bubble.

Good point!
I am probably still leaning that aluminum bullet could disrupt bubble, or something else would happen.
The most obvious thing is that aluminum bullets would not be affected by the time bubble, so they would in fact be moving slowly even in the bendalloy bubble, and would be actually super-fast in Cadmium bubble, seemingly inverting the effect.

Also for this particular case, apparently Shardblade could cut steel-lines (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/70/#e2796  ,no idea how that is supposed to work), so it could possibly disrupt the bubble as well.

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Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Mistborn would win every encounter with Radiants. No. Radiants would have an advantage in most cases, and would win in the majority of fights. While Mistborn can still do impressive deeds, in a fight, with for example Windrunner, they would be at huge disadvantage. I give more than 70% of wins to Widnrunner. In other cases, Mistborn would fare better, but still with many difficulties and struggle. I don't think that any order of Radiants would be easy to beat for Mistborn, even Lightweaver, who might be the easiest for him to fight, would still be a challenging opponent. The healing ability Radiants have is just too powerful, and I find it more important than the shards. 

Oh there are definaly Radiants which are 'worse' in open combat then Mistborn because they lack offensive options (outside of Shardblade at the moment). However all of them still have far better survivability then Mistborn does, simply because they can heal.

But this is not the scenario we are discussing here, right now we are talking about very weak Mistborn with F-Iron and shrapnel grenade launcher vs 4th Oath Windrunner with Shardplate and Shardblade. Regular Mistborn would lose this fight, and weak one even with F-Iron would as well. Wax simply does not have anything at his disposal that could kill Windrunner with plate, and even without Plate it would be difficult for him.

Edited February 7, 2023 by therunner

[lacrossedeamon]

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

Now I know these are games not real combat, but my point is that versatility is not a desirable attribute unto itself.

But neither is raw power if it can only be applied one way which might not be applicable to the current situation. Deoxys-A might be great but if it’s only got Psychic attacks to maximize STAB and goes up against a Dark type it’s fukced.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Oh there are definaly Radiants which are 'worse' in open combat then Mistborn because they lack offensive options (outside of Shardblade at the moment). However all of them still have far better survivability then Mistborn does, simply because they can heal.

I wonder if it is possible to Duralumin burn Pewter (or maybe even any metal) so that the latent amount of Investiture in your system would passively heal you on the level of a Radiant without the surge of progression. I don’t think it would be very practical but something to think about.

[therunner]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I wonder if it is possible to Duralumin burn Pewter (or maybe even any metal) so that the latent amount of Investiture in your system would passively heal you on the level of a Radiant without the surge of progression. I don’t think it would be very practical but something to think about.

I would say most likely not. Pewter can keep you going to some extant, and help heal faster, but even then Vin took what nearly three months to heal broken ribs and internal wounds? While burning pewter pretty much all the time? She was unconscious for two weeks and that was after Sazed stitched her up and cared for her.

I think pewter only helps 'natural' healing and makes it happen faster and more efficient, but it would not let Mistborn regrow arm for example, even with Duralumin.
Broken bones, internal bleeding those it could help with, but it would require amount of pewter sufficient for month or two of constant burning, so quite a lot.

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

Aside from spinning metal rods, which is not what Leras was referring to, there isn't any style to go with it.

After fighting like Kel never fought before. Read that chapter again, it was a great fight. And Kal was fighting to Preserve the prisoners. It's not the outcome that is praised, it's the way it was achieved. The journey before destination.

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

There's a saying, and I have no idea who said it but it goes like this "I do not fear the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks one time, I do fear the man who has practiced one kick ten thousand times"

So what? There is also a saying "don't bring a knife to a gunfight". 

Spoiler

And the saying is wrong. A person practicing only one type of strike with a sword, would be easily defeated by someone practicing every move, because the first guy needs to wait for the right moment to use that strike, while the other will adjust his moves to his opponent.

A person being a master of rapier can be easily defeated by a person who practice every weapon, and chooses the correct one to gain the advantage over rapier - like a spear or something. Versatility gives you tools.

And I still don't apply here, Mistborn trains with almost every metal.

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

Now I know these are games not real combat, but my point is that versatility is not a desirable attribute unto itself.

Yech, those examples are useless in this conversation. Versatility, if used correctly, can be a dangerous tool, as you can dictate how a fight goes, be unpredictable, and respond to your opponent in new ways.

 

 

4 hours ago, therunner said:

But Mistborn cannot hide themselves, only hide they are using Investiture (and only if the opponent is weaker then they are), which against most opponents is pointless since they don't have ways to detect it (and in 1-1 fight it is even more pointless).

Depending on the opponent he's fighting, he can outrun him, hide behind a corner, so when the opponent follows him and passes by that corner, he can strike him by surprise. Very limited action, but it's good use of it. Mistborns are fighting like this.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

In 1-1 Mistborn will lose to just 3rd Oath Windrunner. Here we are talking about extraordinarily weak Mistborn vs 4th Oath Radiant, even worse scenario.

I'm not even talking here about Wax, I already said he'd lose. It's just me mambling in defense of Mistborn. Again.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

And the comment about them being not good soldiers was made in reference to somehow who disputed that. I just pointed out that while in pre-Industrial era Mistborn powers are a nightmare on battlefield, after Aluminum becomes widespread and weapons become more destructive, their powers are limited and and their squishines makes using Mistborn as soldiers a waste. Their skill set is simply no longer suitable for that. Now if you were to give them/implant in them a bunch of charged Unkeyed Goldmines, that would improve their status.

I fully agree with all of this.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

It is true that in the Shaw all Set had them, and Wax is described as hiding/avoiding the bullets. However, that is such a plot armor feat comparable to Kaladin in RoW

Tbf, they were all on the small staircase, Wax was down, they were up, he had grenade launcher, they had metal railings. It was the worst location they could have chosen to face him. Like 0 iq. If they faced him in the open space where Anti-Wax/Anti-Wayne were, they would have killed him.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

But this is not the scenario we are discussing here, right now we are talking about very weak Mistborn with F-Iron and shrapnel grenade launcher vs 4th Oath Windrunner with Shardplate and Shardblade. Regular Mistborn would lose this fight, and weak one even with F-Iron would as well. Wax simply does not have anything at his disposal that could kill Windrunner with plate, and even without Plate it would be difficult for him.

I was off topic, but here I agree.

[therunner]

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And I still don't apply here, Mistborn trains with almost every metal.

Yes they do train, and they are stated to be much less skilled with them then Mistings who can focus on only single metal.
They can achieve the skill of Misting in one or two metals, if they focus on them, but for most they will be less skilled then average Misting.

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Yech, those examples are useless in this conversation. Versatility, if used correctly, can be a dangerous tool, as you can dictate how a fight goes, be unpredictable, and respond to your opponent in new ways.

Problem is that while Mistborn have 16 powers, in practice they have only few external effects those being

1. Increased strength, speed and improved reflexes (Electrum would look like far improved reflexes so it is hidden here)
2. Ability to manipulate metal to and from themselves + limited 'flight'
3. Ability to enhance/suppress emotions
4. Ability to create bubbles of sped up time + possibly shields of slowed time
5. Ability to leech Investiture or supercharge it

Those are the things that are perceptible to outside party. 1 and 2 would be obvious from outset, 3 possibly as well (depending on how quickly Mistborn would use it), 4 would look like sudden bursts of speed and that projectiles 'stop' in the air (possibly forcing melee confrontation).
5 would be a surprise, but it takes time to leech things so it might not be a trump card.
 

Mistborn can only surprise opponent with those powers once, and against foes with healing pretty much none of these are a trump card outside of lucky hits.
They are more versatile then way Windrunners are, but in combat I don't think it gives them much of an edge. In specific situations sure, but across the board no.

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Depending on the opponent he's fighting, he can outrun him, hide behind a corner, so when the opponent follows him and passes by that corner, he can strike him by surprise. Very limited action, but it's good use of it. Mistborns are fighting like this.

I mean, so can anyone? Hiding behind a corner can be done by anyone, anytime there is a corner nearby.
How is that Mistborn special power? The most advantage they would have is detecting the opponents Investiture to sense their coming, but you can also, you know, listen for footsteps or wind?

Against Radiants specifically this could be confounded by spren, though how different/similar their Bronze pulses are we don't know.
 

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I'm not even talking here about Wax, I already said he'd lose. It's just me mambling in defense of Mistborn. Again.

Ah, alright then

[alder24]

14 minutes ago, therunner said:

Yes they do train, and they are stated to be much less skilled with them then Mistings who can focus on only single metal.
They can achieve the skill of Misting in one or two metals, if they focus on them, but for most they will be less skilled then average Misting.

Yes they do, I won't argue with it, however I need to point out that both Kel and Vin are very new to being a Mistborn, while the rest of the team have years of experience. Later during HoA Vin is better than Ham in pewter, so Mistborn can still be more skilled than Misting.

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

• Ability to enhance/suppress emotions

Don't forget that with duralumin, they can paralyze their opponents, like Vin did with Straff, and what was done in TLM. This is very powerful tool.

 

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

But neither is raw power if it can only be applied one way which might not be applicable to the current situation. Deoxys-A might be great but if it’s only got Psychic attacks to maximize STAB and goes up against a Dark type ...

Nothing is immune to Shardblades. Even finding something that merely resists them is hard, but even then they can still kill you with blunt force trauma.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Yeah, those examples are useless in this conversation. Versatility, if used correctly, can be a dangerous tool, as you can dictate how a fight goes, be unpredictable, and respond to your opponent in new ways.

That's why I said versatility is not a good unto itself, you have to be good to start with. And most of Mistborn's powers on a scale of useless to mediocre.

Honestly given how plate is basically immune to coins, and that shardblades can cut through steel lines, I'd give a normal person borrowing living shards with a set of gemstones a fair chance against a Mistborn, or Wax in this case.

24 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Don't forget that with duralumin, they can paralyze their opponents, like Vin did with Straff, and what was done in TLM. This is very powerful tool.

Let's not forget that Shardplate makes it's wearer immune.

[therunner]

26 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes they do, I won't argue with it, however I need to point out that both Kel and Vin are very new to being a Mistborn, while the rest of the team have years of experience. Later during HoA Vin is better than Ham in pewter, so Mistborn can still be more skilled than Misting.

Well yes, but for the other magic systems users who are viewpoint characters typically also have only few years of experience (Elantrians, Radiants, etc.). Here Wax and Wayne are a bit outliers, in that both have been using their abilities for a bit over decades at this point. We can probably take them as example of what supremely skilled twinborn look like.

Oh Mistborn can be more skilled (Vin as you said, Kelsier with steel/iron), but typically they are more skilled in one or two metals and in the rest Mistings are more skilled by the virtue of being able to spend all their time on just one ability.

26 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Don't forget that with duralumin, they can paralyze their opponents, like Vin did with Straff, and what was done in TLM. This is very powerful tool.

I was thinking about it, but if oponent has healing this is not necessarily winning move, though useful one.
Plus there is a question of how e.g. having multiple breaths, being Radiant (so spiritweb is merging with spren), holding Stormlight (which has its own cognitive effects) would interfere with this.
And if someone has Shardplate or simple aluminum hat this tactic is completely blocked.

Edited February 7, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, therunner said:

Plus there is a question of how e.g. having multiple breaths, being Radiant (so spiritweb is merging with spren), holding Stormlight (which has its own cognitive effects) would interfere with this.

Radiant is as invested as Mistborn:

Spoiler

Blightsong

Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Investiture resists Investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right?

Questioner

Is a Mistborn Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

The Mistborn, while they're burning the metal. They are not specifically Invested when they are not burning. When the Investiture becomes active, then yes. Before, no.

Blightsong

So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was Invested, but because he had the potential to use Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time using the magic will Invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as Invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the Spiritweb. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the Spiritual Realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder.

Questioner

Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yeah. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

Having Stormlight would make it harder, with plate much harder, but if the helmet gets cracked somehow, then Mistborn can paralyze, and keep decapitating them until they run out of Stormlight. Stick a  blade vertically through his body. Or like Moash immobilized and killed Elhokar.

 

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I'd give a normal person borrowing living shards with a set of gemstones a fair chance against a Mistborn, or Wax in this case.

Borrowing living shards doesn't give you powers. Normal people can't heal, one coin pushed through his head/heart and he's dead. He can't cut a line that is fully in front of him. The only difficulty would be cracking his plate, but Mistborn can constantly fly far above Shardblade's range, and he only needs to make just one small coin-sized crack (or whatever metal he's using, bullets for Wax) in his plate to kill him. Kaladin pushed a spear through similar cracks. If the same bullet that is making a crack in the plate was being constantly pushed into a person's body, he's dead. Duralumin steel push might be able to crack the plate - that's enouth to kill.

 

Again, I'm not arguing that Mistborn would win ez gg wp against a Windrunner - he won't. I am simply saying that Mistborn can use lots of tools and moves and can still be an irritating opponent for a Radiant.

[therunner]

14 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Radiant is as invested as Mistborn:

  Hide contents

Blightsong

Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Investiture resists Investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right?

Questioner

Is a Mistborn Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

The Mistborn, while they're burning the metal. They are not specifically Invested when they are not burning. When the Investiture becomes active, then yes. Before, no.

Blightsong

So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was Invested, but because he had the potential to use Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time using the magic will Invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as Invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the Spiritweb. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the Spiritual Realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder.

Questioner

Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yeah. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

Having Stormlight would make it harder, with plate much harder, but if the helmet gets cracked somehow, then Mistborn can paralyze, and keep decapitating them until they run out of Stormlight. Stick a  blade vertically through his body. Or like Moash immobilized and killed Elhokar.

I am reading that Mistborn is as invested as Radiant when Radiant does not hold Stormlight. He then says that both Stormligh and burning metals makes it more difficult, but does not say which more.

Nevertheless you would need to fully break the helmet not just crack it, the Investiture created sort of a field effect.
And even then Mistborn can paralyze for a moment but once they did that they need to ingest vial to be able to do it again which will take time.

[Frustration]

24 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Radiant is as invested as Mistborn:

  Reveal hidden contents

Blightsong

Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Investiture resists Investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right?

Questioner

Is a Mistborn Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

The Mistborn, while they're burning the metal. They are not specifically Invested when they are not burning. When the Investiture becomes active, then yes. Before, no.

Blightsong

So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was Invested, but because he had the potential to use Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time using the magic will Invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as Invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the Spiritweb. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the Spiritual Realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder.

Questioner

Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yeah. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

Having Stormlight would make it harder, with plate much harder, but if the helmet gets cracked somehow, then Mistborn can paralyze, and keep decapitating them until they run out of Stormlight. Stick a  blade vertically through his body. Or like Moash immobilized and killed Elhokar.

A more recent WoB says that Radiants are more invested

Spoiler

tskyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.

But RAFO to specifics.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

26 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Borrowing living shards doesn't give you powers.

I know

26 minutes ago, alder24 said:

but Mistborn can constantly fly far above Shardblade's range, and he only needs to make just one small coin-sized crack (or whatever metal he's using, bullets for Wax) in his plate to kill him.

If they fly above they swipe a blade through that steel line and they drop.

27 minutes ago, alder24 said:

If the same bullet that is making a crack in the plate was being constantly pushed into a person's body, he's dead. Duralumin steel push might be able to crack the plate - that's enouth to kill.

Without duralumin that won't work, and with duralumin you can't drive the bullet in deeper, so the plate will heal, while the shardbearer runs you down as you try to replenish your metals.

[lacrossedeamon]

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Nothing is immune to Shardblades. Even finding something that merely resists them is hard, but even then they can still kill you with blunt force trauma.

Anyone with enough stormlight and possibly other investiture is basically immune as the sword won’t damage them physically and the Investiture will heal them spiritually. Type IV BioChromatic Entities seem immune, Honorblades, aluminum wrapped around steel, unless it act like terken a stream of mastered sand probably hard to cut, Dalinar’s stormwagon, etc.

 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I mean, so can anyone? Hiding behind a corner can be done by anyone, anytime there is a corner nearby.
How is that Mistborn special power? The most advantage they would have is detecting the opponents Investiture to sense their coming, but you can also, you know, listen for footsteps or wind?

Corner based magic system when?

 

.

[Frustration]

Just now, lacrossedeamon said:

Anyone with enough stormlight and possibly other investiture is basically immune as the sword won’t damage them physically and the Investiture will heal them spiritually.

That's not being immune, that's healing from the damage

1 minute ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Type IV BioChromatic Entities seem immune.

Nightblood might be, I'll admit that.

2 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

aluminum wrapped around steel,.

That's just immune to the supernatural cutting, it still has to deal with the force, and can be cut nonmagically

Spoiler

Yata

Hi, the community has a [question], we have two WoBs: Shardblades can cut aluminum and Shardblades can't cut it. Which one is true?

Brandon Sanderson (Part 1/Part 2/Part 3)

Hm. Yes, I wondered last night if I'd ever answered this before. Truth is, the answer is contentious at Team Sanderson.

I've been pushing for one answer, but Peter (whom I trust) is pushing back. We will see what ends up in the books as canon.

Problem with magic like I do is sometimes you have to wait for the scientific consensus... Err on "no" for now.

Peter Ahlstrom (Part 1/Part 2/Part 3)

Oh, I think aluminum would stop Shardblades from magical cutting. But if it's too thin like foil, a sword...

...would cut it anyway. What I'm arguing is that something else that Shardblades don't cut doesn't need...

...to necessarily be made of aluminum, for various reasons.

Yata

For example Invested objects (metalmind,spike,etc) or polestones (from some SA's Quote) ?

Peter Ahlstrom

RAFO

Footnote: The two conflicting WoBs can be found here and here. Also the "something else" that Peter was referring to is likely the Shardblade guards, which have since been confirmed to not be aluminum.
General Twitter 2017 (Feb. 3, 2017)

 

[alder24]

12 minutes ago, therunner said:

I am reading that Mistborn is as invested as Radiant when Radiant does not hold Stormlight. He then says that both Stormligh and burning metals makes it more difficult, but does not say which more

Yes, but because Roshar is a high investiture world, while Scadrial is low, holding Stormlight would most likely make it more difficult compared to burning metals.

12 minutes ago, therunner said:

Nevertheless you would need to fully break the helmet not just crack it, the Investiture created sort of a field effect.

Yes, that's what I meant. Break the helmet and paralyze him. Then it would be best to cut Radiant's head off, and stick a sword/knife into his neck vertically through his spine and heart. This would take huge amounts of Stormlight to heal (growing back entire head)(if cutting head off doesn't outright kill Radiant), and combining it with Stormlight sucked by a plate, Radiant might not heal before he runs out of Stormlight.

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

If they fly above they swipe a blade through that steel line and they drop.

Fly, not hoover, swich constantly between different metal sources. And whiel blade can cut it, you need to know it's there first. 

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

A more recent WoB says that Radiants are more invested

I don't think so. It's not Radiant vs Mistborn, it's Surgebinding vs Allomancy. This WoB tells there is more investiture when Surgebinding is being used, and very little when Mistborn is burning metals. I agree with this.

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Without duralumin that won't work, and with duralumin you can't drive the bullet in deeper, so the plate will heal, while the shardbearer runs you down as you try to replenish your metals.

Both Wax and Mistborn have duralumin. Just duralumin pushes the bullet into the head of an opponent, it not only cracks the plate but is carried further into his skull. Even if just few pieces of that bullet passes through the helmet, it would kill him. And to run away, just can still use iron or just pewter run.

 

3 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Type IV BioChromatic Entities seem immune

There is only one Nightblood,  that's the most invested object in Cosmere. We've never seen Azur's sword crossed with Shardblade, but I think it would work. But those are highly invested, and people usually doesn't have access to amount of investiture necessary to stop a Shardblade.

4 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

aluminum wrapped around steel

aluminum would be too thin, and not sharp enough, and would just break apart by physical mass of Shardblade.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Wax and Mistborn have duralumin. Just duralumin pushes the bullet into the head of an opponent, it not only cracks the plate but is carried further into his skull. Even if just few pieces of that bullet passes through the helmet, it would kill him. And to run away, just can still use iron or just pewter run.

No it won't, even when it shatters plate still defelcts that attack.

Just cracking it will not be enough.

[lacrossedeamon]

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's not being immune, that's healing from the damage

Functionally the same so long as you have the Investiture (which is of course the catch)

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's just immune to the supernatural cutting, it still has to deal with the force, and can be cut nonmagically

  Reveal hidden contents

Yata

Hi, the community has a [question], we have two WoBs: Shardblades can cut aluminum and Shardblades can't cut it. Which one is true?

Brandon Sanderson (Part 1/Part 2/Part 3)

Hm. Yes, I wondered last night if I'd ever answered this before. Truth is, the answer is contentious at Team Sanderson.

I've been pushing for one answer, but Peter (whom I trust) is pushing back. We will see what ends up in the books as canon.

Problem with magic like I do is sometimes you have to wait for the scientific consensus... Err on "no" for now.

Peter Ahlstrom (Part 1/Part 2/Part 3)

Oh, I think aluminum would stop Shardblades from magical cutting. But if it's too thin like foil, a sword...

...would cut it anyway. What I'm arguing is that something else that Shardblades don't cut doesn't need...

...to necessarily be made of aluminum, for various reasons.

Yata

For example Invested objects (metalmind,spike,etc) or polestones (from some SA's Quote) ?

Peter Ahlstrom

RAFO

Footnote: The two conflicting WoBs can be found here and here. Also the "something else" that Peter was referring to is likely the Shardblade guards, which have since been confirmed to not be aluminum.
General Twitter 2017 (Feb. 3, 2017)

 

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

aluminum would be too thin, and not sharp enough, and would just break apart by physical mass of Shardblade.

Y’all act like aluminum only comes as foil. It’s one of the more durable metals and if forged in large quantities around a stronger metal I think it could really do some damage.

Also do we know how Shardblades would react coming into contact with duralumin? That could definitely open some options up.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Y’all act like aluminum only comes as foil. It’s one of the more durable metals and if forged in large quantities around a stronger metal I think it could really do some damage.

Against the strength of shardplate?

Anything that could possibly be moved by a Mistborn would be torn to shreds.

3 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Also do we know how Shardblades would react coming into contact with duralumin? That could definitely open some options up.

They aren't fabrials.

[lacrossedeamon]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Against the strength of shardplate?

Anything that could possibly be moved by a Mistborn would be torn to shreds.

I was specifically focusing on parrying Shardblade only. Shardplate you don’t need something specific beyond a big hammer.

 

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

They aren't fabrials.

I meant does shardblade cut duralumin like it would steel or like it would aluminum?

[Frustration]

Just now, lacrossedeamon said:

I meant does shardblade cut duralumin like it would steel or like it would aluminum?

No clue.

[lacrossedeamon]

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No clue.

Can shardblades cut polestones? A lot of them are beryl or corundum which have aluminum as part of their chemical formula.

[Frustration]

Just now, lacrossedeamon said:

Can shardblades cut polestones? A lot of them are beryl or corundum which have aluminum as part of their chemical formula.

Yes they can, the aluminum in there is too impure to have an effect.

[lacrossedeamon]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Yes they can, the aluminum in there is too impure to have an effect.

Hmm well duralumin is like 90% aluminum. I wonder if there is a specific threshold. And alloys aren’t quite the same a new chemical compounds.

[therunner]

 

19 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Anyone with enough stormlight and possibly other investiture is basically immune as the sword won’t damage them physically and the Investiture will heal them spiritually. Type IV BioChromatic Entities seem immune, Honorblades, aluminum wrapped around steel, unless it act like terken a stream of mastered sand probably hard to cut, Dalinar’s stormwagon, etc..

I don't think it is that clear cut (pun intended). Shardblades can damage e.g. spren and those are made of Investiture, so being merely Invested enough does not seem to be sufficient to block the cutting power.
Cutting Radiant holding Stormlight seems to be equally difficult to cutting anyone without it, just that with Stormlight Radiant can heal damage as it is done.

I agree that Honorblades, other Shardblades, aluminum swords would resist. Nightblood obviously, Azure's sword possibly? Nightblood is a lot more Invested and a special case so it is difficult to draw a generalization from him.

However regarding Scadrial, Bands of Mourning are still far less Invested then a Shardblade, so even someone using them would not be Invested enough to resist Shardblade.

Quote

Corner based magic system when?

Now that I'd like to see
Users are supernaturally good at hiding behind corners (as in, even a corner of table leg is sufficient for them to hide behind), and they can teleport between corners they have in line of sight

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, that's what I meant. Break the helmet and paralyze him. Then it would be best to cut Radiant's head off, and stick a sword/knife into his neck vertically through his spine and heart. This would take huge amounts of Stormlight to heal (growing back entire head)(if cutting head off doesn't outright kill Radiant), and combining it with Stormlight sucked by a plate, Radiant might not heal before he runs out of Stormlight.

But to break the helm you would have to land on average two or three hits in relatively quick succession (so the damage does not heal in the meantime).
If you argue that Coinshots are difficult to hit in general, than I would say hitting just head that is moving at similar or larger speeds is downright impossible, especially in quick succession.

And on paralysis through duralumin soothing/rioting, I am not sure how long that would work. My reasoning is as follows, when Vin did that she pretty much deadened all his feelings, and that persisted even after she stopped actively doing it (as she used Duralumin). However, Radiant holds Stormlight, which has also cognitive effect (namely urge to act, move etc.) So it is possible that this would work as sort of rioting, and after Duralumin soothing ends, this would rouse Radiant back to action as a form of 'rioting'.
Do you think that would make sense?
 

Quote

I don't think so. It's not Radiant vs Mistborn, it's Surgebinding vs Allomancy. This WoB tells there is more investiture when Surgebinding is being used, and very little when Mistborn is burning metals. I agree with this.

But Mistborn is invested when using Allomancy (as they give off pulses) as is Radiant holding Stormlight. Surgebinding is just directing that Stormlight somewhere to some effect, so active Surgebiding would actually diminish how invested Radiant is.
So Radiant is more Invested that Mistborn burning metals.
How great is the difference, and how much it interferes with rioting/soothin is open question.

15 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I meant does shardblade cut duralumin like it would steel or like it would aluminum?

15 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Hmm well duralumin is like 90% aluminum. I wonder if there is a specific threshold. And alloys aren’t quite the same a new chemical compounds.

I think Shardblade should cut duralumin like anything else, as far as we know duralumin can be effected by Investiture and does not block it, so it should not have any special effect on Shardblade.

What is mentioned in AoL in passing is that only some alloys of Aluminum are allomantically inert like Aluminum is, so those are the ones that would probably interfere also with Shardblade cutting (though possibly to lesser extent? )