The Sword of Harmony vs the Son of honor

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, Tglassy said:

If he manages to get a shot in Kal’s Visor, it’ll just rattle around inside the helmet for a while, then you just keep shooting until they die. 

There's no visor

[therunner]

10 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

That wob doesn't saying anything about the metals your not burning.

Ehm, it does. Question is about metals both in stomach and piercings, metal in stomach is either being burned or not. If not burned, it is not-invested, and per WoB it will be leeched away before the Invested ones.
 

Quote

Kaymyth

I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings.

Brandon Sanderson

What it boils down to is this:

1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off.

2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds.

3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal.

ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015)

 

7 hours ago, Tglassy said:

I’ve always hated the WOB that says a Mistborn would be better sneaking around and assassinating than on the battlefield when half the battles in Well of Ascension and Hero of Ages showed Mistborn dominating on the battlefield. 

Mistborn are good on battlefield if you are fighting against people using swords and clubs, with little to no armor. Once opponents have guns Mistborn is going to have trouble, and once those bullets are aluminum ones, they are nearly just a regular person with not-quite flight. Put on aluminum hats and plate your metal in aluminum, and you have just negated pretty much all the ranged options Mistborn has. Add in aluminum bullets and Mistborn has single defensive option and that is Bendalloy bubble for dodging, but aluminum bubble would pop those, so even that would not help too much.

Comparably Windrunner in plate can withstand bullets pretty well (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3561), and even without plate has much better options (their flight not being dependent on external conditions, ability to lash anything outside aluminum though it has to be within reach).

Quote

Wax Vs Kal, Kal would probably win, but a grenade launcher is still a grenade launcher. Hit the armor dead on and it will crack.  Wax is also good enough to hit a bullet mid flight to deflect it just right to hit an enemy in the head when they’re hiding behind someone. If he manages to get a shot in Kal’s Visor, it’ll just rattle around inside the helmet for a while, then you just keep shooting until they die. 

That grenade launcher is designed for shrapnel (Wax's words), and even when detonating in stairwell it does not do much to damage the construction. I think Shardplate while damaged, would still hold after one hit.

Spoiler

SotD 2 shows it being used into Era 4, so the Shardplate still has value even far in the future, when weapons are going to be more powerful.

And there is no visor in the Shardplate. Even deadplate can close it (while sacrificing some peripheral vision) but on living plate the visor is translucent fully, so there is no reason to keep visor open.

Edited February 4, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Tglassy said:

I’ve always hated the WOB that says a Mistborn would be better sneaking around and assassinating than on the battlefield when half the battles in Well of Ascension and Hero of Ages showed Mistborn dominating on the battlefield. 

Yeah, me too. There wasn't even a single instance of Kel or Vin sneaking around and assassinating someone silently. The closest we had was Vin sneaking into Fadrex storage and it was a trap. They always just brute force through everything.

[bmcclure7]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Ehm, it does. Question is about metals both in stomach and piercings, metal in stomach is either being burned or not. If not burned, it is not-invested, and per WoB it will be leeched away before the Invested ones.
 

 

Mistborn are good on battlefield if you are fighting against people using swords and clubs, with little to no armor. Once opponents have guns Mistborn is going to have trouble, and once those bullets are aluminum ones, they are nearly just a regular person with not-quite flight. Put on aluminum hats and plate your metal in aluminum, and you have just negated pretty much all the ranged options Mistborn has. Add in aluminum bullets and Mistborn has single defensive option and that is Bendalloy bubble for dodging, but aluminum bubble would pop those, so even that would not help too much.

Comparably Windrunner in plate can withstand bullets pretty well (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3561), and even without plate has much better options (their flight not being dependent on external conditions, ability to lash anything outside aluminum though it has to be within reach).

That grenade launcher is designed for shrapnel (Wax's words), and even when detonating in stairwell it does not do much to damage the construction. I think Shardplate while damaged, would still hold after one hit.

  Reveal hidden contents

SotD 2 shows it being used into Era 4, so the Shardplate still has value even far in the future, when weapons are going to be more powerful.

And there is no visor in the Shardplate. Even deadplate can close it (while sacrificing some peripheral vision) but on living plate the visor is translucent fully, so there is no reason to keep visor open.

 I think you're confused Non invested metal= not god metal,  The question isn't about Burning versus non burning metals.  Burning metals doesn't invest them, They're just a key. 

 

 I think you really underestimate mistborn especially with new metals.  Not to mention harmonium.

 

Regular Guns are hardly effective against coin shots  They're not touching a mistborn. 

 Remember mistborn can literally stop time.  And while guns may make some things harder they will also make the mistborn more deadly.  Imagine Vin with waxes grenade launcher. 

Yes, I too am unsure if it could penetrate shard plate  Probably not in a single shot would be  My guess. But It's still Really effective against regular soldiers. 

 

And combined with diralumin actually might be able to penetrate penetrate shard plate (Though  Living plate would probably be healed by storm light).  

 

[alder24]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Ehm, it does. Question is about metals both in stomach and piercings, metal in stomach is either being burned or not. If not burned, it is not-invested, and per WoB it will be leeched away before the Invested ones.

This WoB is not about it. It's about invested metals - god metals, vs non-invested - regular metals like steel. Burning metals doesn't make them invested.

[lacrossedeamon]

49 minutes ago, alder24 said:

This WoB is not about it. It's about invested metals - god metals, vs non-invested - regular metals like steel. Burning metals doesn't make them invested.

 

56 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 I think you're confused Non invested metal= not god metal,  The question isn't about Burning versus non burning metals.  Burning metals doesn't invest them, They're just a key. 

Invested metals in this context does not mean godmetals. It means metalminds with an active Feruchemical charge. The WOB is specifically about leeching from twinborns. Whether Allomantically burning metals actually requires a bit of investiture to “turn the key” so to speak I don’t know. Just wanted to clarify that WOB.

[bmcclure7]

6 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

 

Invested metals in this context does not mean godmetals. It means metalminds with an active Feruchemical charge. The WOB is specifically about leeching from twinborns. Whether Allomantically burning metals actually requires a bit of investiture to “turn the key” so to speak I don’t know. Just wanted to clarify that WOB.

 Thanks for the clarification.

[Frustration]

On 2/3/2023 at 2:41 PM, bmcclure7 said:

Before he found hoid.  He's exhausted he tries to burn steel but runs out,  Then he finds something else within him and starts burning it, (traces of pewter)  Suddenly he has the energy to keep going.

It just kept him warm, he still wasn't able to swim, and could barely float.

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

It just kept him warm, he still wasn't able to swim, and could barely float.

 It specifically says he was burning something.

[Frustration]

57 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 It specifically says he was burning something.

Yeah, but it wasn't enough to allow him to swim, all it did was sustain him slightly longer, and even that was failing.

Which is my point, his other metals are so weak he might as well not have them.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Yeah, but it wasn't enough to allow him to swim, all it did was sustain him slightly longer, and even that was failing.

Which is my point, his other metals are so weak he might as well not have them.

 Remember that he hasn't been taking pewter so hes only burning traces hes showing about as much power as vin did when she was doing so.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Remember that he hasn't been taking pewter so hes only burning traces hes showing about as much power as vin did when she was doing so.

He has been taking pewter. All of the vials Harmony gave him had all 16 metals.

[bmcclure7]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He has been taking pewter. All of the vials Harmony gave him had all 16 metals.

 When did it say that?  I thought that was just a special one. Rest were just steel weren't they?  Does anyone have the book on hand, would love if you could clear this up. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Frustration]

22 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 When did it say that?  I thought that was just a special one. Rest were just steel weren't they?  Does anyone have the book on hand, would love if you could clear this up. 

Why else would Harmony have prepared them and said to use those vials instead of his normal ones?

I am also certain it is somewhere in the book, but I can't find it right now, I'll keep looking.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Why else would Harmony have prepared them and said to use those vials instead of his normal ones?

I am also certain it is somewhere in the book, but I can't find it right now, I'll keep looking.

 

 Maybe but how much?  The vials are the same size of his regular vials more or less,  If they had half the steel  Surely he would have said something.  So is it like 90%  steel 10% all other metals? 

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 

 Maybe but how much?  The vials are the same size of his regular vials more or less,  If they had half the steel  Surely he would have said something.  So is it like 90%  steel 10% all other metals? 

When he's climbing the Shaw he says he runs out of steel faster than he thought, and has to take another vial.

[bmcclure7]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

When he's climbing the Shaw he says he runs out of steel faster than he thought, and has to take another vial.

 I wonder why he doesn't switch back those regular metals then. Maybe it's like 80% steel then? Or 70%?

[therunner]

On 04/02/2023 at 3:18 PM, bmcclure7 said:

 I think you're confused Non invested metal= not god metal,  The question isn't about Burning versus non burning metals.  Burning metals doesn't invest them, They're just a key.

Fair interpretation, however the WoB then still says that non-Invested metals (even in stomach) get leeched before Invested ones. Hence metals not being burned get leeched.

On 04/02/2023 at 3:18 PM, bmcclure7 said:

 I think you really underestimate mistborn especially with new metals.  Not to mention harmonium.

I think most people overestimate Mistborn. We have mostly seen them fight against people far weaker then they are (regular soldiers, Mistings) with at most leather armor, and wooden shields.
The few times they had to fight someone stronger or comparable (Inquisitors other Mistborn) it was a struggle, and they knew what to expect from them, and still just Inquisitors having healing abilities made them formidable foes. They had to rally on removing lynchpin spikes often.

I mean, Kelsier is literally the first person to defeat Inquisitor in combat, so it is not like Mistborn do it commonly.

Mistborn on battlefield is one well aimed grenade from being dead, compared to Windrunner who would heal up and continue on his way (albeit weakened and possibly running low on Stormlight). That is why Mistborn are more suitable as spies and assassins, they have versatile and relatively powerful powerset that is easy to conceal, but they are unbelievably squishy by Cosmere standards on Invested arts.

Also what would harmonium do for Mistborn? They cannot even ingest it.

Quote

Regular Guns are hardly effective against coin shots  They're not touching a mistborn. 

 Remember mistborn can literally stop time.  And while guns may make some things harder they will also make the mistborn more deadly.  Imagine Vin with waxes grenade launcher. 

Regular guns are still dangerous if you are not quick enough, even for Mistborn. If they are aluminum ones, then Mistborn is nearly as defenseless as regular person against them (no shielding with pushes, no help from pewter when healing).

Mistborn cannot stop time, they can at best slow it down by a factor of ~15-80, and only within few feet of themselves. We know how that ability can be used in combat we have seen Wayne for 4 books. And the bubbles get popped by aluminum, making them increasingly riskier the more aluminum becomes common.

Quote

Yes, I too am unsure if it could penetrate shard plate  Probably not in a single shot would be  My guess. But It's still Really effective against regular soldiers. 

Sure, but how effective against regular soldiers is not really relevant for this thread.
And I doubt the grenade even with duraluminum help would be able to penetrate Shardplate. Even Wax with Vindication (which is made to deal with hardier stuff) would typically take several bullets to break a section.

Quote

And combined with diralumin actually might be able to penetrate penetrate shard plate (Though  Living plate would probably be healed by storm light).  

And once Wax does that, he is unable to use steelpushes to move until he ingests another vial, leaving him far outstripped in mobility.

Edited February 6, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

I mean, Kelsier is literally the first person to defeat Inquisitor in combat, so it is not like Mistborn do it commonly.

No 

Spoiler

cometaryorbit

In Mistborn, was Kelsier the first person ever to kill a Steel Inquisitor?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

Miscellaneous 2021 (Dec. 1, 2021)

 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

That is why Mistborn are more suitable as spies and assassins, they have versatile and relatively powerful powerset that is easy to conceal, but they are unbelievably squishy by Cosmere standards on Invested arts.

I agree, they are "squishy" but they have a vastly greater arsenal of abilities to utilize than any Radiant. 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Regular guns are still dangerous if you are not quick enough, even for Mistborn. If they are aluminum ones, then Mistborn is nearly as defenseless as regular person against them (no shielding with pushes, no help from pewter when healing).

Tbf Wax was being constantly shot at with aluminum bullets since AoL and yet he was almost never hit. It shows that coinshooter is fast enough to be extremely hard target for guns.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

And the bubbles get popped by aluminum, making them increasingly riskier the more aluminum becomes common.

I think I remember aluminum bullets going through the bubble without popping it. But setting up the bubble around bigger aluminum will pop it:

Spoiler

Questioner

What would happen--

Imagine I had-- imagine Wayne is standing near the end of an aluminium tube. He tries to set up a speed bubble such that he radius would go through the tube, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay standing at the end of an aluminum tube, well I don't know--

Oh I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. I think that if it's trying to be set up through aluminum it's gonna' disrupt it, you're gonna' have that sort of the "backlash" that you get when-- yeah.

Questioner

Oh so you can't even set it, it won't be there *inaudible*--

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think you can set it up, I think it's gonna' cause it to collapse the second that it tries to pop up around the aluminum.

Questioner

Okay that makes sense.

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

Yeah, it's probably gonna' act like you tried to set up a speed bubble on something that's too small and moving.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Mistborn cannot stop time, they can at best slow it down by a factor of ~15-80, and only within few feet of themselves. We know how that ability can be used in combat we have seen Wayne for 4 books.

He can burn both cadmium and bendalloy, making a sphere of slowed down time around him. I can see it as a very useful defensive tool.

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by alder24

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No 

  Reveal hidden contents

cometaryorbit

In Mistborn, was Kelsier the first person ever to kill a Steel Inquisitor?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

Miscellaneous 2021 (Dec. 1, 2021)

 

The only way for that WoB to be true is if they assassinated them.

In SH Leras says that Kelsier killing an Inquisitor is the most impressive thing he's ever seen, so no one else has beaten them in combat.

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I agree, they are "squishy" but they have a vastly greater arsenal of abilities to utilize than any Radiant.

Versatility isn't an atribute unto itself.

You need power behind it.

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Tbf Wax was being constantly shot at with aluminum bullets since AoL and yet he was almost never hit. It shows that coinshooter is fast enough to be extremely hard target for guns.

Plot armor.

[lacrossedeamon]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The only way for that WoB to be true is if they assassinated them.

In SH Leras says that Kelsier killing an Inquisitor is the most impressive thing he's ever seen, so no one else has beaten them in combat.

Maybe Kelsier was just flashier in his combat. Or Leras was just being nice.

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The only way for that WoB to be true is if they assassinated them.

Who are you to question the Words of Brandon??

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

In SH Leras says that Kelsier killing an Inquisitor is the most impressive thing he's ever seen, so no one else has beaten them in combat.

No, it's the first time Leras saw one of them being killed with style.

15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You need power behind it.

Mistborn has 16 powers, maybe not as strong in raw investiture like Radiant, but still 16. 

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Plot armor.

Or they are fast, unpredictable and hard to hit?

[therunner]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

No 

  Reveal hidden contents

cometaryorbit

In Mistborn, was Kelsier the first person ever to kill a Steel Inquisitor?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

Miscellaneous 2021 (Dec. 1, 2021)

 

7 hours ago, therunner said:

I mean, Kelsier is literally the first person to defeat Inquisitor in combat, so it is not like Mistborn do it commonly.

I said killed in combat, not killed in general. The WoB can cover killing in ambush, or assassination, not just open 1-1 fight.

And as @Frustration Leras considered it to be among the most impressive things he has seen, so Mistborn killing Inquisitor is not a regular occurrence.
 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I agree, they are "squishy" but they have a vastly greater arsenal of abilities to utilize than any Radiant.

 

7 hours ago, therunner said:

Mistborn on battlefield is one well aimed grenade from being dead, compared to Windrunner who would heal up and continue on his way (albeit weakened and possibly running low on Stormlight). That is why Mistborn are more suitable as spies and assassins, they have versatile and relatively powerful powerset that is easy to conceal, but they are unbelievably squishy by Cosmere standards on Invested arts.

And I did acknowledge they have versatile powers. But a lot of their powers are of limited utility in the middle of combat. Let's us take a look for open combat
 

• Steel - useful in combat (offense, mobility and defense) - however defensive utility can be countered by use of Aluminum, making it less useful the more in future of Cosmere we go
• Iron - useful in (offense, mobility) - same limitation as Steel, and not so useful for defense
• Pewter - general improvement of physical abilities, useful in combat
• Tin - potentially a hindrance in combat (strong sensation can overwhelm user, though Pewter can compensate), not directly useful in open combat
• Zinc/Brass - useful against not heavily Invested foes, can be easily countered by Aluminum hat
• Copper - useless in open combat
• Bronze - useless in open combat (possibly could be used to detect illusions)
• Duralumin - useful in combat to enhance other metal in a trade-off (if the move does not work out, you are out of one metal)
• Aluminum - useless in combat
• Nicrosil - useless in combat (outside of very special scenarios)
• Chromium - useful only against Invested enemies
• Gold - useless in combat
• Electrum - useful in combat, though requires practice (and Aluminum objects don't leave shadows)
• Cadmiun - useful only in combination with Bendalloy to set up a shield (which could be popped by aluminum)
• Bendalloy - useful in combat against ranged attacks

So out of 16 powers you have 8 which are always useful, and 2 which must be used in conjunction with other metals (Duralumin and Bendalloy). From this you get only some basic physical improvement, ability to manipulate in limited fashion metallic objects, to manipulate emotions, limited precognition and pseud-shield/defensive bubble. On its own impressive, but the second foes start using aluminum guns (which are far superior to coinshots) and grenades, they will have a hard time. Add in aluminum hats and suddenly all they are left with is physical improvement, and ability to manipulate metallic objects (+ mobility).

Mistborn have little place on a battlefield under such conditions, most of their abilities can be negated too easily by prepared foe and they are far too easy to kill.

They are still better off than someone with no Invested arts, obviously, but compared to e.g. Windrunners of 3rd Oath and up they are sorely lacking, with the difference only increasing as technology develops.

Edit: Conversely, spying/assassinations are good match since their powers are easy to hide (no overt physical effect), use mundane source for power (metals), can be used without detection with care (remote effect on emotions/metalic objects). And they can detect usage of Investiture and hide their own, again giving the good tool for obtaing/concealing information.

 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Tbf Wax was being constantly shot at with aluminum bullets since AoL and yet he was almost never hit. It shows that coinshooter is fast enough to be extremely hard target for guns.

Outside of AoL most enemies actually don't use Aluminum bullets if I recall. And often he is with Wayne and taking advantage of speed bubble to reposition/figure things out.
And he has also F-Iron, allowing him to change speed in air in a way regular Coinshot cannot, advantage Mistborn does not have.

Coinshots are moving at most about as fast as a car, so not beyond targeting abilities.
 

Quote

I think I remember aluminum bullets going through the bubble without popping it. But setting up the bubble around bigger aluminum will pop it:

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

What would happen--

Imagine I had-- imagine Wayne is standing near the end of an aluminium tube. He tries to set up a speed bubble such that he radius would go through the tube, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay standing at the end of an aluminum tube, well I don't know--

Oh I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. I think that if it's trying to be set up through aluminum it's gonna' disrupt it, you're gonna' have that sort of the "backlash" that you get when-- yeah.

Questioner

Oh so you can't even set it, it won't be there *inaudible*--

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think you can set it up, I think it's gonna' cause it to collapse the second that it tries to pop up around the aluminum.

Questioner

Okay that makes sense.

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

Yeah, it's probably gonna' act like you tried to set up a speed bubble on something that's too small and moving.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

He can burn both cadmium and bendalloy, making a sphere of slowed down time around him. I can see it as a very useful defensive tool.

I don't have books on hand, could you take a look?
Most of the time I think Wax and Wayne leave bubble before bullets would go through, because they are thrown wildly off-course so could end up hitting them anyway.

I would expect that aluminum would disrupt even a bubble that has been setup like it does with other pre-existing effects, but it is a conjecture.

Edited February 6, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, therunner said:

I said killed in combat, not killed in general. The WoB can cover killing in ambush, or assassination, not just open 1-1 fight.

And as @Frustration Leras considered it to be among the most impressive things he has seen, so Mistborn killing Inquisitor is not a regular occurrence.

Until we have another WoB, specifying how they were killed, I'm willing to believe that Mistborn were able to kill Inquisitors in 1 on 1 fight. It didn't happen often, however TLR wasn't fazed by it, but it still could have happened. Mistborn used to be much stronger than Kelsier, and there was 1000 years for it to happen at least one more time.

14 minutes ago, therunner said:

• Tin - potentially a hindrance in combat (strong sensation can overwhelm user, though Pewter can compensate), not directly useful in open combat

Tin is constantly used by Mistborn to prevent them from going unconscious, and to clear the mind. I would say it's quite useful.

16 minutes ago, therunner said:

• Copper - useless in open combat
• Bronze - useless in open combat (possibly could be used to detect illusions)

Being able to hide themself and make a surprise attack during a fight is useful. Being able to detect usage of investiture is also useful. Dumad showed this.

19 minutes ago, therunner said:

Mistborn have little place on a battlefield under such conditions, most of their abilities can be negated too easily by prepared foe and they are far too easy to kill.

I do agree, they're not the best soldiers. But in most cases we talk about them in 1 on 1 scenarios. Here they can do much more.

21 minutes ago, therunner said:

Outside of AoL most enemies actually don't use Aluminum bullets if I recall. And often he is with Wayne and taking advantage of speed bubble to reposition/figure things out.

He faces aluminum guns regularly, and during TLM more than ever. Whole army of Set in the Shaw was armed with aluminum. Mistborn can do the same trick with bubbles.

22 minutes ago, therunner said:

Coinshots are moving at most about as fast as a car, so not beyond targeting abilities.

But they aren't the size of a car. I'm not saying they can't be hit, but only that Wax proved it to be hard. 

23 minutes ago, therunner said:

I don't have books on hand, could you take a look?
Most of the time I think Wax and Wayne leave bubble before bullets would go through, because they are thrown wildly off-course so could end up hitting them anyway.

I don't. But I think you might be correct with them leaving the bubble, it happened. But I still remember a few situations where Wax described bullets passing through the bubble.

In the WoB Brandon was asked about the aluminum tube, and the tube is empty inside, so the bubble can't fully close. The bullet is probably too small to pop the bubble.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Mistborn would win every encounter with Radiants. No. Radiants would have an advantage in most cases, and would win in the majority of fights. While Mistborn can still do impressive deeds, in a fight, with for example Windrunner, they would be at huge disadvantage. I give more than 70% of wins to Widnrunner. In other cases, Mistborn would fare better, but still with many difficulties and struggle. I don't think that any order of Radiants would be easy to beat for Mistborn, even Lightweaver, who might be the easiest for him to fight, would still be a challenging opponent. The healing ability Radiants have is just too powerful, and I find it more important than the shards. 

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

I said killed in combat, not killed in general. The WoB can cover killing in ambush, or assassination, not just open 1-1 fight.

And as @Frustration Leras considered it to be among the most impressive things he has seen, so Mistborn killing Inquisitor is not a regular occurrence.
 

 

And I did acknowledge they have versatile powers. But a lot of their powers are of limited utility in the middle of combat. Let's us take a look for open combat
 

• Steel - useful in combat (offense, mobility and defense) - however defensive utility can be countered by use of Aluminum, making it less useful the more in future of Cosmere we go
• Iron - useful in (offense, mobility) - same limitation as Steel, and not so useful for defense
• Pewter - general improvement of physical abilities, useful in combat
• Tin - potentially a hindrance in combat (strong sensation can overwhelm user, though Pewter can compensate), not directly useful in open combat
• Zinc/Brass - useful against not heavily Invested foes, can be easily countered by Aluminum hat
• Copper - useless in open combat
• Bronze - useless in open combat (possibly could be used to detect illusions)
• Duralumin - useful in combat to enhance other metal in a trade-off (if the move does not work out, you are out of one metal)
• Aluminum - useless in combat
• Nicrosil - useless in combat (outside of very special scenarios)
• Chromium - useful only against Invested enemies
• Gold - useless in combat
• Electrum - useful in combat, though requires practice (and Aluminum objects don't leave shadows)
• Cadmiun - useful only in combination with Bendalloy to set up a shield (which could be popped by aluminum)
• Bendalloy - useful in combat against ranged attacks

So out of 16 powers you have 8 which are always useful, and 2 which must be used in conjunction with other metals (Duralumin and Bendalloy). From this you get only some basic physical improvement, ability to manipulate in limited fashion metallic objects, to manipulate emotions, limited precognition and pseud-shield/defensive bubble. On its own impressive, but the second foes start using aluminum guns (which are far superior to coinshots) and grenades, they will have a hard time. Add in aluminum hats and suddenly all they are left with is physical improvement, and ability to manipulate metallic objects (+ mobility).

Mistborn have little place on a battlefield under such conditions, most of their abilities can be negated too easily by prepared foe and they are far too easy to kill.

They are still better off than someone with no Invested arts, obviously, but compared to e.g. Windrunners of 3rd Oath and up they are sorely lacking, with the difference only increasing as technology develops.

Edit: Conversely, spying/assassinations are good match since their powers are easy to hide (no overt physical effect), use mundane source for power (metals), can be used without detection with care (remote effect on emotions/metalic objects). And they can detect usage of Investiture and hide their own, again giving the good tool for obtaing/concealing information.

 

Outside of AoL most enemies actually don't use Aluminum bullets if I recall. And often he is with Wayne and taking advantage of speed bubble to reposition/figure things out.
And he has also F-Iron, allowing him to change speed in air in a way regular Coinshot cannot, advantage Mistborn does not have.

Coinshots are moving at most about as fast as a car, so not beyond targeting abilities.
 

I don't have books on hand, could you take a look?
Most of the time I think Wax and Wayne leave bubble before bullets would go through, because they are thrown wildly off-course so could end up hitting them anyway.

I would expect that aluminum would disrupt even a bubble that has been setup like it does with other pre-existing effects, but it is a conjecture.

 We have not Seen an example of aluminum popping a speed bubble. Despite them facing aluminum weapons and tools before. 

 

In addition it's a speed bubble so what if aluminum can pop it,  It will take the bullet like what 2 hours to reach them. By which time they've already moved and are probably in another speed bubble. 

Tin  Has been shown to be very useful in combat 

Edited February 6, 2023 by bmcclure7