Allomancer vs Knight Radiant

[therunner]

Well, this thread got quite polarized in the last 24 hours.

16 hours ago, Nameless said:

A Mistborn isn't standing in one place. They're moving around the Radiant, creating a metal cloud like Kelsier, who, might I remind you, didn't have a lifetime of practice with his powers. He only had what, a year or two? That's not much. Given a couple years of practice with their powers, a Mistborn should be able to replicate Kelsier's feat.

And neither is Radiant standing in one place to let Mistborn maneuver like that.

Also, need I remind you that from the multitude of Mistborn we have seen, only Kelsier pulled that feat off. I agree that it is learnable skill, but that does not mean any Mistborn will be able to learn it. Even Vin did not, despite also being quite talented (see horseshoe trick).

16 hours ago, Nameless said:

We know a  modern-day Radiant's standard equipment. It's a bunch of spheres and their Blade/Plate. We don't know a modern-day Mistborn's equipment. I'm extrapolating from the equipment they used back in era 1, which was metals, mistcloak, coin pouch, and glass daggers. I'm guessing with the upgrade in tech, the Mistborn would get all the newly discovered metals and upgrade their daggers to some aluminum alloy. They'd probably also add guns into the loadout.

We don't know modern day Mistborn equipment because there are no modern day Mistborn. The very setup requires assuming Mistborn even exist in the first place.
Again, if you can assume Mistborn update their load out, we can assume Radiant do too. Fabrials that could be combat used are less then one year old, so experimental at RoW stage, give it a couple of years (e.g. 10-15 till Era 2) and they will be using some Fabrials as part of load out. It could be backup painrials (either for offense or for staving off shock), half-shard armor (if Spren are willing)/Tension-treated armor for better defense for those below 4th Oath, as examples of simple improvements to their equipment they would be silly not to take advantage of.

My statements are at worse equally speculative to yours, so I don't understand why you have such an issue with them.

16 hours ago, Nameless said:

While Windrunners can fly faster overall, depending on the amount of anchors around them they are likely less maneuverable than a Mistborn.

Windrunners are far more maneuverable, unlike Mistborn they can

• accelerate/decelerate in arbitrary direction
• with some training (and we do see squires doing it in Oathbringer) learn to use partial lashings for more sensitive control
• instinctively sculpt air with body (and most likely some small usage of surges) to easily reorient in air, for even finer control (using air resistance for deceleration and banking)

Mistborn cannot even use less strength then a burn (see WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103/#e1037), can only fractionally go between burn and flare, and most people cannot even do that. The only way they could moderate the strength is with having multiple anchors of varying 'strength' to push on, so completely at the mercy of terrain. Not to mention they have no way to easily cancel the momentum they have exactly, as there will not always be an anchor (or combination) ideally placed to exactly let them cancel momentum, which Windrunners/Skybreakers can easily do.

Simply Mistborn are more limited compared to Gravitation orders in every single facet of their 'flight'.

16 hours ago, Nameless said:

Yes they can dodge. Also making that many plants like that would take a ton of stormlight.

Atium users sees only a few seconds into future + is granted mental acuity to make sense of all the shadows.

If, Radiant can create a threat that Mistborn physically cannot move away from in that amount of seconds, they would simply die. E.g. soulcast air in ~80 foot radius to oil and set it ablaze, exact parameters would depend on details of how many seconds into the future they can see + how quickly Mistborn can accelerate.

Second, atium creates shadows of object only within certain Radius of the user or something of the sort (e.g. no Atium shadows of all the buildings and planet due to planetary movement), so if there is such a range beyond which object does not generate a shadow and you can create a threat that moves that distance in fraction of a second, you could again kill atium burner without any shenanigans, or waiting them out. Admittedly, I think this option is not very realistic, as the distance would be too large to be useful or to let you actually aim accurately.

16 hours ago, Nameless said:

They'd need a lot of Stormlight to Soulcast a regular human, let alone a Mistborn burning metals. Jasnah, a fourth ideal Radiant who is probably the best soulcaster on Roshar outside of the fused, says that the souls of ordinary, uninvested men normally 'resist mightily'. A Mistborn burning electrum could easily see that they suddenly turn into stone or fire and start flaring all their metals, as well as just flying away so that their cognitive aspect gets away from the Elsecaller, who'll struggle to keep up with them.

Not that much Stormlight, we see Jasnah soulcasting three people (back when she was 3rd Oath most likely) without ever starting to glow and with only what little spheres she could hide on her person. 

Combat ready Radiant would be able to soulcast tens of people before running out. Also, Scadrial is 'low investiture world' compared to Roshar (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/152/#e2801) so focusing your Stormlight to push through for one Mistborn should be doable. I mean, average soulcaster on Roshar could soulcast filled Goldmind (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e9681).

Regarding running away, if I recall properly, while in Cognitive they are able to pull spheres of objects closer, there is a chance something similar could be done with representation of living creatures, however we don't know that, so it could be viable option against Lightweavers, against Elsecallers it depends on range of Elsecallers.

10 hours ago, Nameless said:

Normal men can fight people in Plate. Kaladin fought Shardbearers with only Stormlight, which grants an inferior boost to Pewter, and he won twice. An Atium misting could have won against Kaladin like that. And you think that Plate would allow you to beat Atium? The metal so valuable that anyone burning it was considered invincible? The metal that allowed an army of like 200 ordinary soldiers to fight against an army of Koloss that outnumbered them literally a thousand to one, for hours? They only died when they ran out of Atium. And Koloss have almost 5 times the strength of an ordinary human, and are superior soldiers in every single way besides tactics. Being able to move slightly faster than a Mistborn doesn't make your Atium shadow magically split. They can see exactly what you're going to do before you do it, and they instinctually know how to use that information. A little speed doesn't help. A little skill doesn't help. you'd need to reach speeds that only a Steel ferring or compounder can reach in order to overcome Atium. Vin got incredibly lucky while Zane was literally just toying with her. You can't beat Atium that easily.

Normal man cannot fight people in Plate. Literally the only person we see doing that is Kaladin on Stormlight, and he wins directly only against Helaran (back when he did not have surges), the rest of the time he has surges + part of plate for improvised shielding.

Plate would let you beat atium (only atium, no other metals), for the simple reason that without other boosts, only atium does not give you way of getting through plate in less then multiple minutes. Barring exceptional circumstances, like having atium gathered over 1000 years split among 300 people, atium user will run out sooner.

Against Mistborn, even with Atium the only tools for getting through plate they have are Duralumin steelpushes/ironpulls, or Pewter enhanced strikes.
Seeing that multiple Warform parshendi (who are roughly 2x the strength of regular person, i.e. comparable to Mistborn burning pewter) needed few minutes to get through deadplate, even Pewter-strikes might not help much.

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

Yes, but a Mistborn can't move faster than bullets.

I mean, they don't need to move faster then a bullets when they have ~4 seconds heads up on the bullet trajectory. Though machine gun would cause them trouble most likely.

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

 A group of three competent alethi spearmen working together could easily take a seer down.

No offense, but

You would need more than three, if it was even possible. Atium lets you know everything that they will do that is physically visible with several seconds heads up, regular people can get around it solely by overwhelming it, i.e. giving them too many things to react to at once.

Vin managed to do what she did with Zane only because she also experienced atium, and knew what to look for (and he underestimated her).

However, this gives me an idea, could Lightweaver make enough Illusions to overwhelm even Atium enhanced mind? Giving them too much shadows to contend with? This assumes that Illusions create atium shadows.

Edited July 1, 2022 by therunner
There was an image, but it was gone so I had to insert it again

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

No offense, but

You would need more than three, if it was even possible. Atium lets you know everything that they will do that is physically visible with several seconds heads up, regular people can get around it solely by overwhelming it, i.e. giving them too many things to react to at once.

Vin managed to do what she did with Zane only because she also experienced atium, and knew what to look for (and he underestimated her).

However, this gives me an idea, could Lightweaver make enough Illusions to overwhelm even Atium enhanced mind? Giving them too much shadows to contend with? This assumes that Illusions create atium shadows.

I agree here.  We have to remember that the seers whom were not great soldiers danced around hordes of kolos weilding kolos blades... I don't know the exact dimensions and can concede that kolos blades may not be as maneuverable but I imagine the seers in this case had to maneuver between multiple large weapons frequently to get in and as has been mentioned the only way a seer died in this battle was when it ran out of atium... 

As for Vin and Zane.  I still can't help but wonder if preservation didn't interfere behind screen.  Vin is smart and quick but let's face the fact that plot armor is the only way she pulled off any of her major victories.  

TLR must have been suicidal and even with that it was only through preservation Vin could do anything.  I would not be shocked if it happened the same way behind the scenes being able to blame something subtle by preservation.  I don't see the shard of preservation just watching the champion it is grooming get killed off by atium halfway through the story and right before the big boss battle.  

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

No offense, but

You would need more than three, if it was even possible. Atium lets you know everything that they will do that is physically visible with several seconds heads up, regular people can get around it solely by overwhelming it, i.e. giving them too many things to react to at once.

Even if Atium let a person know exactly how to position themselves at all times, and gave them the mental ability to force themselves into that position you can't dodge everything, nor can you prevent yourself from being surrounded. Every time you try to attack you have to block strikes coming in from three directions, and since your opponents move just as fast as you, by the time you block one strike then move to block the second the first person will be attacking again, and you still have the third person to worry about.

On the other hand Koloss do not stratagize and simply swing, assuming that they will win because they are bigger. They don't work together, and thus one Koloss is much easier for a seer to deal with than three people working together.

[therunner]

31 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

As for Vin and Zane.  I still can't help but wonder if preservation didn't interfere behind screen.  Vin is smart and quick but let's face the fact that plot armor is the only way she pulled off any of her major victories.  

TLR must have been suicidal and even with that it was only through preservation Vin could do anything.  I would not be shocked if it happened the same way behind the scenes being able to blame something subtle by preservation.  I don't see the shard of preservation just watching the champion it is grooming get killed off by atium halfway through the story and right before the big boss battle.  

I see your point, however personally I will stick to the usual explanations, that is also supported by Brandon's notes, i.e. that Vin really is that good.
I respect the differing opinion, but personally I will stick with what is 'known'.

30 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Even if Atium let a person know exactly how to position themselves at all times, and gave them the mental ability to force themselves into that position you can't dodge everything, nor can you prevent yourself from being surrounded. Every time you try to attack you have to block strikes coming in from three directions, and since your opponents move just as fast as you, by the time you block one strike then move to block the second the first person will be attacking again, and you still have the third person to worry about.

On the other hand Koloss do not stratagize and simply swing, assuming that they will win because they are bigger. They don't work together, and thus one Koloss is much easier for a seer to deal with than three people working together.

I see what you are getting at, however I still disagree. In fight a couple of seconds is 'eternity', it will give great advantage. I agree that there is a limit where the atium user could be overwhelmed, however since we don't know how far they can see, I dare not guess. At the moment I think that you would need like ~7-8 people, and there you get into the issue that they will be getting in each other's way

I agree with the principle of overwhelming the user, but think that atium users see too far for it to work effectively. If they saw only 1-2 seconds, I could see it working with maybe 4 people at least, but I think they see further.

In the end I don't think we can convince the other, as we don't have enough solid information on how far atium users see, how it impacts their reflex and so forth.

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

On 7/1/2022 at 3:31 AM, therunner said:

You would need more than three, if it was even possible. Atium lets you know everything that they will do that is physically visible with several seconds heads up, regular people can get around it solely by overwhelming it, i.e. giving them too many things to react to at once.

Vin managed to do what she did with Zane only because she also experienced atium, and knew what to look for (and he underestimated her).

However, this gives me an idea, could Lightweaver make enough Illusions to overwhelm even Atium enhanced mind? Giving them too much shadows to contend with? This assumes that Illusions create atium shadows.

setting up a checkmate would be easier than with Fortuity, though.

[NameIess]

12 minutes ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

setting up a checkmate would be easier than with Fortuity, though.

I'd say harder, actually. Atium doesn't give the extra dexterity, but it does give precise knowledge of what's about to happen, and gives you the instinct to act on that knowledge.

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

Just now, Nameless said:

I'd say harder, actually. Atium doesn't give the extra dexterity, but it does give precise knowledge of what's about to happen, and gives you the instinct to act on that knowledge.

but only a few seconds into the future, and the misting must be burning it.

[NameIess]

Just now, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

but only a few seconds into the future, and the misting must be burning it.

Fortuity only got like a few seconds, at least in direct combat. It would be easier to kill an Atium misting than Fortuity, but that's not the question at stake.

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Fortuity only got like a few seconds, at least in direct combat. It would be easier to kill an Atium misting than Fortuity, but that's not the question at stake.

I did not say it would be easy, just easier. Checkmate is the only sure way to stop them.

[NameIess]

Just now, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

I did not say it would be easy, just easier. Checkmate is the only sure way to stop them.

I would say that an Atium misting burning Atium is harder to kill than Fortuity, because of their exact knowledge of the future. Their defense might be slightly weaker, but their offense is much more potent.

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

Just now, Nameless said:

I would say that an Atium misting burning Atium is harder to kill than Fortuity, because of their exact knowledge of the future. Their defense might be slightly weaker, but their offense is much more potent.

there is the fact of limited Atium.

[NameIess]

Just now, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

there is the fact of limited Atium.

Yes there is, so overall an Atium misting is going to be weaker. When they're burning though, they'll be much more dangerous.

[Letryx13]

On 6/28/2022 at 8:18 PM, Nameless said:

Attacking through the eye slit won't work. The Radiant can easily seal it up.

Probably, but it's still the only real weak spot.  It's how Kaladin beat Helaran.  Living plate is obviously better, but didn't Jasnah get attacked the same way in that battle she fought in RoW?

On 6/28/2022 at 8:18 PM, Nameless said:

An aluminum dagger is a reasonable upgrade from the equipment Mistborn traditionally use. guns are also a reasonable addition, maybe even non-aluminum ones, as the added benefit of being able to push on the bullets might be worth exposing your weapon to manipulation from other allomancers. Arrows from shardbows would probably be hard to outright stop, but a Mistborn shouldn't have any problem dodging to the side.

With stormlight enhanced reflexs, Radiants are likely to be able to dodge coins shot at them. Meaning they could dodge just as easily, if they even needed to.  And if the MistBorn is taking the time to actually aim at their opponent (something a lot of people using guns don't do) they open themselves to counter fire. Guns are likely better, but shardbows would be effective as well.  Especially if the spren could form into the spear-like arrow. Then the MistBorn couldn't push against it at all.

On 6/28/2022 at 8:18 PM, Nameless said:

We've never really seen anyone mess up with Duraluminum like you're saying. Using their metals becomes pretty instinctual for a Mistborn after a while.

We've only really seen two MistBorn using Duralumin, one of whom was probably the most skilled MistBorn to ever live.  And even if they don't make a mistake with Duralumin itself, juggling them all is more mentally taxing, making it more likely for other mistakes to occur.

On 6/28/2022 at 8:18 PM, Nameless said:

The way I see it, Stormlight basically gives you your maximum speed, strength, and awareness for as long as you have some. When Kaladin gets that, he becomes a way more dangerous soldier. However, we don't see him dodging arrows at point blank range or anything like that. He just never tires. A Mistborn can get a whole bunch of large projectiles and hit the Radiant from all sides with them. Stuff like Swords and whatnot. A Radiant with Gravitation could dodge, but firing metal back won't work. Transformation takes a lot of Stormlight, and a lot of effort if you're not Jasnah. Abrasion could mitigate hits, but using it like that would take lots of Stormlight, and the Mistborn could just sit back and wait for the Radiant to run out. Adhesion/Cohesion like that wouldn't be too helpful, just help you hunker down. and we still don't know a lot about Division.

A MistBorn might be maneuverable, but they're still only going to be able to fire from one direction at a time. Besides, Kaladin was dodging hundreds of arrows at a time. No MistBorn is going to be able to do that without atium.  And if the Radiant is following them with their eyes, they aren't going to be surprised.  I don't want to get more into the specific surges, since it might not matter, but if the MistBorn is just going to wait out the Radiant, then the Radiant can do the same thing to the Mistborn. If stormlight is limited, then so are their metals. Pewter and Atium burns pretty quickly, and those are the metal that's going to enable them to keep up with Radiants' reflexes and speed, and since one is an alloy, then they aren't likely to be able to scrounge either one up randomly like they could with iron or tin.  

On 6/28/2022 at 8:18 PM, Nameless said:

Stormlight is inferior to Pewter in terms of stamina and reflexes. Abrasion likely wouldn't help against leeching, as the Stormlight that makes the Radiant slick would probably just get leeched off as soon as the Mistborn makes contact. Stonewards would be difficult, but it's not too hard for a Mistborn to fly around them, assuming they have the room to. While a spren probably could yell in a Mistborn's ear, they'd be much more useful as a weapon, especially considering how vulnerable to leeching dismissing them makes the Radiant.

Pewter also takes a significantly larger toll when it runs out, which it does even more quickly than stormlight, especially when flared. I've yet to see anyone have to sleep for two weeks after using a lot of stormlight.  I'm not so sure about Abrasion, maybe they'd start to suck the stormlight out when they touch, but they'd have to pull it all out instantly to really stop it from protecting the Radiant.  And if it were that easy, I don't think the leecher would ever need to grab hold of their target.  But I admit, that one's kind of iffy.  Stonewards could just surround themselves with stone for a defense, forcing a MistBorn to come to them on the Radiant's terms. As for the spren as a weapon, unless the Radiant is using them as a spear and throwing them, or as a shard arrow and firing them (something I'm still waiting to see) they they're not much use against opponents that are just waiting and stalling until their opponent is powerless. If the MistBorn decides to get in close, then the spren is better as a weapon. But at a distance, they could shout in their ear, which is probably as effective against someone burning tin as a flashbang against a normal person, incapacitating them.  The only way they could balance that would be to use pewter, which again, would be used up extremely quickly.  After that, a shardbow could finish the job.

On 6/28/2022 at 8:18 PM, Nameless said:

Yeah. A Mistborn's best option in an unfavorable enviroment is a retreat. They can recreate Vin's horshoe trick to run away, which will be faster than any order withou Gravitation. And I seriously doubt a Spren would be any better at finding a Mistborn in the mists than a Radiant. (I don't think Gravitation would help either. You can only hover above the mists for so long)

Syl was useful in finding knob weeds in TWoK, although that was partly just because she's so fast. And if the spren did manage to find the radiant, they could just keep talking to let the Radiant know where the MistBorn was.  Although I wonder how fast Abrasion could be, Gravitation is probably the only surge to out speed steel pushing.

 

One thing I haven't brought up, but should be mentioned is fabrials that imitate or activate the surges.  If we're accepting guns are ok for MistBorn to use, and aluminum daggers as well, then fabrials such as soulcasters, healing fabrials, and the lift fabrial that Navani's scholar's developed used by Kaladin in RoW should be on the table. Even if a MistBorn gets close enough to leech the radiant, it wouldn't affect the fabrials they hold, since those have their own gemstones to hold stormlight.  It's why emeralds are so valuable on Roshar.  The ancient fabrials are made of the same metal as shardblades, so they couldn't be pushed or pulled.  And they would enable the radiant to soulcast the MistBorn if and when they got close, and even to heal from injuring inflicted by the MistBorn at close range.

Even if you don't want to accept that the Radiant could still use the ancient fabrials while leeched, according to a WoB, the ancient radiants had figured out fabrials to imitate most of the surges, (BondSmith powers were too complicated) so it's not unreasonable that they could have access to those fabrials as weapons to use Gravitation, Transformation, and the others. They obviously wouldn't be as good as the powers the Radiants get themselves, but they'd still be effective.

[Frustration]

44 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Probably, but it's still the only real weak spot.  It's how Kaladin beat Helaran.  Living plate is obviously better, but didn't Jasnah get attacked the same way in that battle she fought in RoW?

She did but the only reason she had it open was to imitate a real shardbearer, she closed it almost instantly afterwards.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

With stormlight enhanced reflexs, Radiants are likely to be able to dodge coins shot at them. Meaning they could dodge just as easily, if they even needed to.  And if the MistBorn is taking the time to actually aim at their opponent (something a lot of people using guns don't do) they open themselves to counter fire. Guns are likely better, but shardbows would be effective as well.  Especially if the spren could form into the spear-like arrow. Then the MistBorn couldn't push against it at all.

Shardbows would struggle to hit a Mistborn moving in the air.

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

We've only really seen two MistBorn using Duralumin, one of whom was probably the most skilled MistBorn to ever live.  And even if they don't make a mistake with Duralumin itself, juggling them all is more mentally taxing, making it more likely for other mistakes to occur.

None of the Mistborn we've seen have struggled with having too many powers, not even Elend, who wasn't exactly the most skilled of Mistborn. They use their powers pretty instinctively after they get practice with them. If you can name one time in the books where we've seen this be an issue with any allomancer, I'd be surprised.

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

A MistBorn might be maneuverable, but they're still only going to be able to fire from one direction at a time. Besides, Kaladin was dodging hundreds of arrows at a time. No MistBorn is going to be able to do that without atium. 

They can pull metal too, so that's two directions off the bat. Add in circling around the Radiant, and that's the rest of the directions too. Kaladin dodged hundreds of arrows fired from a distance, and still took hits on both his shield and his armor. And the rest of Bridge 4 (normal people) were able to do pretty much the same thing. Given that, I'd say that say a Mistborn could definitely use A-pewter to dodge just as well, or just deflect all the arrows with A-steel. And as for the Radiant being able to dodge metal from all directions, Kal didn't do anything near that. The arrows were fired from a single direction, and he was at a pretty good distance from the archers. The Mistborn is firing coins from all directions, and they're pretty close.

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

I don't want to get more into the specific surges, since it might not matter, but if the MistBorn is just going to wait out the Radiant, then the Radiant can do the same thing to the Mistborn. If stormlight is limited, then so are their metals. Pewter and Atium burns pretty quickly, and those are the metal that's going to enable them to keep up with Radiants' reflexes and speed, and since one is an alloy, then they aren't likely to be able to scrounge either one up randomly like they could with iron or tin. 

Pewter's harder to get than Stormlight? I'd say that's highly dependent on the planet you're on. Anywhere besides Roshar, it's almost entirely impossible to get Stormlight. On the other hand, a Mistborn can get the proper metals on basically any planet that has metallurgy. Atium is limited yeah, but you don't need that when you're flying around the Radiant whose best option of attack is a Shardbow, a weapon that very few if any Radiants are proficient in. And a Mistborn doesn't have to burn all their metals to use their powers.

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Pewter also takes a significantly larger toll when it runs out, which it does even more quickly than stormlight, especially when flared. I've yet to see anyone have to sleep for two weeks after using a lot of stormlight.

Pewter only has such an effect when you've been pushing your body too hard. Such as by sprinting a normally three-day trip. A Mistborn'd be fine if it ran out in the middle of a fight, at least so long as they hadn't been using it to not sleep for an extended period.

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I'm not so sure about Abrasion, maybe they'd start to suck the stormlight out when they touch, but they'd have to pull it all out instantly to really stop it from protecting the Radiant.  And if it were that easy, I don't think the leecher would ever need to grab hold of their target.  But I admit, that one's kind of iffy.

Well, I'm assuming that making direct contact with the Stormlight the Radiant coats themselves in in order to use Abrasion would make leeching that Stormlight a whole lot easier.

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Stonewards could just surround themselves with stone for a defense, forcing a MistBorn to come to them on the Radiant's terms.

Why would the Mistborn attack? They can just watch from a safe distance and wait for the Radiant to run out of Stormlight.

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

As for the spren as a weapon, unless the Radiant is using them as a spear and throwing them, or as a shard arrow and firing them (something I'm still waiting to see) they they're not much use against opponents that are just waiting and stalling until their opponent is powerless. If the MistBorn decides to get in close, then the spren is better as a weapon. But at a distance, they could shout in their ear, which is probably as effective against someone burning tin as a flashbang against a normal person, incapacitating them.  The only way they could balance that would be to use pewter, which again, would be used up extremely quickly.  After that, a shardbow could finish the job.

I guess that might work. Or it might just give the Mistborn an exploitable opening, as the Mistborn can probably sense spren using A-bronze. Even if they can't, a Mistborn can easily carry days worth of pewter on them, so running out's not as much of an issue as you think. And again, a Shardbow is far from standard equipment. We haven't seen any Radiants that use them so far.

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Syl was useful in finding knob weeds in TWoK, although that was partly just because she's so fast. And if the spren did manage to find the radiant, they could just keep talking to let the Radiant know where the MistBorn was.  Although I wonder how fast Abrasion could be, Gravitation is probably the only surge to out speed steel pushing.

The Radiant's going to want their spren close, so they can be immediately summoned if the Mistborn pulls a sneak attack.

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

One thing I haven't brought up, but should be mentioned is fabrials that imitate or activate the surges.  If we're accepting guns are ok for MistBorn to use, and aluminum daggers as well, then fabrials such as soulcasters, healing fabrials, and the lift fabrial that Navani's scholar's developed used by Kaladin in RoW should be on the table. Even if a MistBorn gets close enough to leech the radiant, it wouldn't affect the fabrials they hold, since those have their own gemstones to hold stormlight.  It's why emeralds are so valuable on Roshar.  The ancient fabrials are made of the same metal as shardblades, so they couldn't be pushed or pulled.  And they would enable the radiant to soulcast the MistBorn if and when they got close, and even to heal from injuring inflicted by the MistBorn at close range.

Radiants that we've seen do not carry these devices. Allomancers that we've seen utilize aluminum and guns. Besides that, Surge replicating fabrials besides Soulcasters are basically extinct, and even Soulcasters are rare to the point that they would almost never be risked on a battlefield.

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Even if you don't want to accept that the Radiant could still use the ancient fabrials while leeched, according to a WoB, the ancient radiants had figured out fabrials to imitate most of the surges, (BondSmith powers were too complicated) so it's not unreasonable that they could have access to those fabrials as weapons to use Gravitation, Transformation, and the others. They obviously wouldn't be as good as the powers the Radiants get themselves, but they'd still be effective.

To make a gravitation fabrial, it seems you need a Radiant spren. You think they're going to waste an Honorspren on a fabrial that only dully imitates Radiant powers? Also, if we're giving Radiants tech like that, the Mistborn gets a medallion that gives F-gold and F-steel. And they can refill it via compounding.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

6 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

One thing I haven't brought up, but should be mentioned is fabrials that imitate or activate the surges.  If we're accepting guns are ok for MistBorn to use, and aluminum daggers as well, then fabrials such as soulcasters, healing fabrials, and the lift fabrial that Navani's scholar's developed used by Kaladin in RoW should be on the table. Even if a MistBorn gets close enough to leech the radiant, it wouldn't affect the fabrials they hold, since those have their own gemstones to hold stormlight.  It's why emeralds are so valuable on Roshar.  The ancient fabrials are made of the same metal as shardblades, so they couldn't be pushed or pulled.  And they would enable the radiant to soulcast the MistBorn if and when they got close, and even to heal from injuring inflicted by the MistBorn at close range.

Even if you don't want to accept that the Radiant could still use the ancient fabrials while leeched, according to a WoB, the ancient radiants had figured out fabrials to imitate most of the surges, (BondSmith powers were too complicated) so it's not unreasonable that they could have access to those fabrials as weapons to use Gravitation, Transformation, and the others. They obviously wouldn't be as good as the powers the Radiants get themselves, but they'd still be effective.

I would be happy to agree with radiants having access to fabrials as it is all tech.  That does open medallions though.  As magical tech is magical tech. 

[therunner]

5 hours ago, Nameless said:

Radiants that we've seen do not carry these devices. Allomancers that we've seen utilize aluminum and guns. Besides that, Surge replicating fabrials besides Soulcasters are basically extinct, and even Soulcasters are rare to the point that they would almost never be risked on a battlefield.

To that I would point out two things

1. From Allomancers we have seen only mistings with guns, not mistborn (for obvious reasons). And misting with gun is much weaker.
2. While Surge Fabrials are basically extinct, Mistborn are fully extinct at the moment.

So, if we can consider Mistborn with a gun, then we can equally well consider Radiant with Surge Fabrial (actually it is even more plausiable).

5 hours ago, Nameless said:

Also, if we're giving Radiants tech like that, the Mistborn gets a medallion that gives F-gold and F-steel. And they can refill it via compounding.

Sure, we could. However, I would point out there is one major difference between fabrials and medallions.

Creation of medallion requires a person with whole another magical system distinct from Allomancy, that being Feruchemy. Hence inclusion of medallions strays outside of discussion of 'Allomancers vs Radiants'. By contract, fabrial creation can be done by anyone on Roshar with requisite knowledge, and does not require any other magic system.  In that sense fabrial are much closer to technology like guns than to medallions, in that they only exploit 'physical' laws and specifics of local ecology, instead of exploiting specific magic systems. Indeed, we have even seen Selish equivalent of fabrials, alerter in Secret History.

Closer to fabrials is Hemalurgy, in that it does not require initiation only knowledge of what to do and Intent, however most potent application of Hemalurgy (stealing other Invested abilities) is still dependent on existence of other magic systems. And again, Hemalurgy is wholly separate Invested Art, which fabrial technology are not.

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, Nameless said:

They can pull metal too, so that's two directions off the bat.

Assuming they have an anchor of sufficent size.

5 hours ago, Nameless said:

And the rest of Bridge 4 (normal people) were able to do pretty much the same thing.

With the help of Kal's reverse lashings.

5 hours ago, Nameless said:

the Radiant whose best option of attack is a Shardbow, a weapon that very few if any Radiants are proficient in.

Letterally every Order has better methods of attack than Shardbows

5 hours ago, Nameless said:

Well, I'm assuming that making direct contact with the Stormlight the Radiant coats themselves in in order to use Abrasion would make leeching that Stormlight a whole lot easier.

I'd disagree, active investiture is much harder to disrupt.

Spoiler

ProfessorWC

Could a Surgebinder shut down Shardplate by cracking a piece and then consuming the Stormlight from the internal gems?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, though getting the Stormlight out of those gems while they're already powering something is not easy.

General Twitter 2015 (March 12, 2015)

 

5 hours ago, Nameless said:

Why would the Mistborn attack? They can just watch from a safe distance and wait for the Radiant to run out of Stormlight.

A week is a long time to wait, longer if they have perfect gemstones.

5 hours ago, Nameless said:

And again, a Shardbow is far from standard equipment. We haven't seen any Radiants that use them so far.

The amount of pewter needed to flare it for an hour is just as far outside of Mistborn's standard equipment as shardbows are to Radiants.

5 hours ago, Nameless said:

The Radiant's going to want their spren close, so they can be immediately summoned if the Mistborn pulls a sneak attack.

RoW shows that Spren can be summoned across distances.

5 hours ago, Nameless said:

Radiants that we've seen do not carry these devices. Allomancers that we've seen utilize aluminum and guns. Besides that, Surge replicating fabrials besides Soulcasters are basically extinct, and even Soulcasters are rare to the point that they would almost never be risked on a battlefield.

Nale had a Progession fabrial, so yes, we have seen them use Surge Fabrials.

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Nale had a Progession fabrial, so yes, we have seen them use Surge Fabrials.

Technically yeah Nale is a Radiant, but being also a Herald that's easy to miss.

Though the Regrowth fabrials might be kept by the Skybreaker Order.

--

Re Vin and Zane: I think it's key that Zane basically gave her an opening. He could have killed her quickly. But due to his emotions/internal conflict he didn't.

I don't think Preservation was specifically involved there, but Ruin indirectly was (Vin was the only person Ruin's voice didn't tell Zane to kill, which surely contributed to his internal conflict). Ruin still needed Vin to free him.

Making that trick work at all still required exceptional skill on Vin's part, but in another situation she'd never have had the chance.

-

I'd argue that any Radiant without Plate loses to an atium burner- even Kaladin's skill wouldn't be enough in a situation without the atium burner delaying as Zane did - but one with Plate probably wins if they can close the eye slit, since usual Mistborn weapons can't break through Plate in 30 seconds or so. So they run out of atium and then the Radiant wins, not by actually beating atium but by surviving till it's gone.

A speed advantage isn't enough, Yomen can dodge attacks from Elend despite lack of pewter, since he sees the attacks coming in advance.

I don't think distance helps either- the atium burner wouldn't see the sniper a mile off but would see the atium shadow of the bullet.

Edited July 5, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[NameIess]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

To that I would point out two things

1. From Allomancers we have seen only mistings with guns, not mistborn (for obvious reasons). And misting with gun is much weaker.
2. While Surge Fabrials are basically extinct, Mistborn are fully extinct at the moment.

So, if we can consider Mistborn with a gun, then we can equally well consider Radiant with Surge Fabrial (actually it is even more plausiable).

For the purposes of this thread, we're assuming a Mistborn exists. Furthermore, since that Mistborn exists, I am assuming they would have all the equipment that would be standard for a Mistborn if they existed in era 2, which is the current period we're at. I could extrapolate to the future, but we haven't seen what an era 3 Mistborn would look like, so I prefer, for the purpose of not basing my arguments entirely on assumptions, to use equipment that an era 2 Mistborn would use, and give the Radiant equipment that they have been shown to use around the same time period. If you want to give a Radiant all ten surge fabrials, that's fine. However, the argument I am interested in pursuing is the argument between a Mistborn that has reasonable era 2 equipment and a Radiant that has reasonable SA period equipment.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Sure, we could. However, I would point out there is one major difference between fabrials and medallions.

Creation of medallion requires a person with whole another magical system distinct from Allomancy, that being Feruchemy. Hence inclusion of medallions strays outside of discussion of 'Allomancers vs Radiants'. By contract, fabrial creation can be done by anyone on Roshar with requisite knowledge, and does not require any other magic system.  In that sense fabrial are much closer to technology like guns than to medallions, in that they only exploit 'physical' laws and specifics of local ecology, instead of exploiting specific magic systems. Indeed, we have even seen Selish equivalent of fabrials, alerter in Secret History.

Closer to fabrials is Hemalurgy, in that it does not require initiation only knowledge of what to do and Intent, however most potent application of Hemalurgy (stealing other Invested abilities) is still dependent on existence of other magic systems. And again, Hemalurgy is wholly separate Invested Art, which fabrial technology are not.

Not really a difference, since Fabrials are a distinct magic system from Surgebinding, only tangentially related just as Feruchemy and Hemalurgy are to Allomancy. If you disagree, feel free to explain how they work with normal physics. They are a system with rules that utilizes Investiture, and those rules are completely different from Radiancy. And while surge fabrials might not require initiation into Radiancy, they require something that's almost the same: a willing nahel spren. So not something that anyone with requisite knowledge could do. Something that anyone with requisite knowledge and requisite resources could do. Just like medallions.

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Assuming they have an anchor of sufficent size.

Most locations have metal, unless they're fighting in an empty field or something like that. Even then, enough coins on the ground will give plenty of anchor points.

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

With the help of Kal's reverse lashings.

Yeah. So not incredible Radiant reflexes. Just something that only one order, which could already prevent the fly around shooting coins thing by flying themselves, can do.

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Letterally every Order has better methods of attack than Shardbows

If you give them ridiculous era 3-4 levels of knowledge and skill with their powers, plus infinite stormlight, sure.

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

I'd disagree, active investiture is much harder to disrupt.

Those are gemstones. And if that doesn't work, then fine, nicrosil will do the same thing, except it specifically works on active investiture. Not sure what duraluminum-level slickness is going to look like, but I doubt it'll give the Radiant a significant advantage.

Also, I see a bit of hypocrisy here, even ignoring the fact that you think a Radiant can carry a weeks worth of stormlight without perfect gemstones.

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

A week is a long time to wait, longer if they have perfect gemstones.

 

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

The amount of pewter needed to flare it for an hour is just as far outside of Mistborn's standard equipment as shardbows are to Radiants.

So Radiants commonly carry perfect gemstones? Uh, no, they don't. They carry a few pouches worth of normal gemstones, that they can go through in maybe 30 minutes of using their powers in combat. (Based on Kal during the fight at Hearthstone). Fourth ideal will extend that, I'll be generous and say it doubles it to an hour, but still, why does the Radiant get tons of perfect gemstones filled with more than a week of stormlight, something that current Radiants have very restricted access to if any at all, when the Mistborn doesn't get a few days of Pewter, something that they have very easy access to. Literally just go to any metallurgist, pay them some money, walk out with a weeks worth of pewter. As opposed to scavenging the land or dealing with spren hoarders like the Honorspren to get perfect gemstones

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

RoW shows that Spren can be summoned across distances.

Instantly? I thought they had to cross the distance, not teleport. Which they could do pretty quickly with their speed, but still a few crucial seconds you might be without a Blade.

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Nale had a Progession fabrial, so yes, we have seen them use Surge Fabrials.

So because the Herald had a Progression fabrial, that means that any Radiant can have any kind of surge fabrial they want?  When we haven't seen any Surge fabrials besides Soulcasters and Progression, even in the hands of the Heralds? 

 

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yeah. So not incredible Radiant reflexes. Just something that only one order, which could already prevent the fly around shooting coins thing by flying themselves, can do.

Given that lurchers can stop coins with wooden shields those won't even bother a plated radiant

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

If you give them ridiculous era 3-4 levels of knowledge and skill with their powers, plus infinite stormlight, sure.

Even if you want to go with just what we have seen They all can do it

Dustbringers - break water into oxygen and hydorgen, creating sufficent pressure to make a pseudo-gun.

Edgedancers - grow plants to grab the Mistborn

Truthwatchers - Make an illusion covering the Mistborn's head. Even if they can tell it's an illusion, they can't see and are efffectivly neutralized.

Willshapers - transfer between realms, manifesting objects to increase your altitude and jump back into the physical grabbing the Mistborn in a grappel.

Stonewards - Build a cannon out of stone, use the stone along the barrel to force a projectile out.

That's all the non-gravitation/transformation/Bondsmith orders

12 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Those are gemstones. And if that doesn't work, then fine, nicrosil will do the same thing, except it specifically works on active investiture. Not sure what duraluminum-level slickness is going to look like, but I doubt it'll give the Radiant a significant advantage.

They probably lose all friction with reality, pulling them into the real world

12 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Also, I see a bit of hypocrisy here, even ignoring the fact that you think a Radiant can carry a weeks worth of stormlight without perfect gemstones.

It takes a week for spheres to lose their charge. And what hypocrisy?

14 minutes ago, Nameless said:

So Radiants commonly carry perfect gemstones? Uh, no, they don't. They carry a few pouches worth of normal gemstones, that they can go through in maybe 30 minutes of using their powers in combat. (Based on Kal during the fight at Hearthstone). Fourth ideal will extend that, I'll be generous and say it doubles it to an hour, but still, why does the Radiant get tons of perfect gemstones filled with more than a week of stormlight, something that current Radiants have very restricted access to if any at all, when the Mistborn doesn't get a few days of Pewter, something that they have very easy access to. Literally just go to any metallurgist, pay them some money, walk out with a weeks worth of pewter. As opposed to scavenging the land or dealing with spren hoarders like the Honorspren to get perfect gemstones

Don't forget Singers last even longer.

And there are a lot of perfect gemstones lying around if you know where to find them.

Spoiler

Fantastic-Eggplant-9

It's stated that the Fused can hold Voidlight nearly indefinitely. Does this mean their gemhearts are perfect gems?

Brandon Sanderson

So, kind of. It does not necessarily mean that, how about that. But a similar mechanic is happening.

Fantastic-Eggplant-9

Is this why they are so strict with how they handle their dead?

Brandon Sanderson

It is part of why. You are picking up on the right foreshadowing that I have seeded into the books.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

15 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Instantly? I thought they had to cross the distance, not teleport. Which they could do pretty quickly with their speed, but still a few crucial seconds you might be without a Blade.

Well they teleport the distance from the CR, so why should that be different?

16 minutes ago, Nameless said:

So because the Herald had a Progression fabrial, that means that any Radiant can have any kind of surge fabrial they want?  When we haven't seen any Surge fabrials besides Soulcasters and Progression, even in the hands of the Heralds? 

Oathgates

[NameIess]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Given that lurchers can stop coins with wooden shields those won't even bother a plated radiant

Plate doesn't bend, and the Radiant has enough mass that they won't get pushed backwards. So the full force of the coin will be transferred into the Plate, meaning it will crack a little. I agree that coins would be a rather inefficient  way to crack Plate, but larger metal objects (swords, ingots, armor pieces, horshoes, etc.) could work quite well.

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Dustbringers - break water into oxygen and hydorgen, creating sufficent pressure to make a pseudo-gun.

That sounds really, really hard to aim, if it actually works. Also would be really Stormlight inefficient. Shardbow would be way better.

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

grow plants to grab the Mistborn

Only person we've ever seen grow plants uses Lifelight, which probably works much more efficiently than Stormlight for that purpose. And growing enough plants to reasonably catch the Mistborn hovering maybe ten feet in the air would, again, take a lot of Stormlight.

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Make an illusion covering the Mistborn's head. Even if they can tell it's an illusion, they can't see and are efffectivly neutralized.

Chromium would get rid of that pretty quick.

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

 transfer between realms, manifesting objects to increase your altitude and jump back into the physical grabbing the Mistborn in a grappel.

Travelling between realms is extremely difficult even for Jasnah, whose order is the best at Cognitive realms stuff. Unless they're fighting at an easy transfer point, this strategy won't work.

15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Build a cannon out of stone, use the stone along the barrel to force a projectile out.

I doubt this would work. Even if they could aim it, getting the stone to move fast enough to be practical would be difficult.

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It takes a week for spheres to lose their charge. And what hypocrisy?

So the Radiant doesn't need air and carries a weeks worth of water and food on them? The hypocrisy is that you give the Radiant tons of Stormlight, and don't allow the Mistborn tons of Pewter or other metals.

27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Don't forget Singers last even longer.

And there are very few singer Radiants.

28 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And there are a lot of perfect gemstones lying around if you know where to find them.

That WoB doesn't say singer gemhearts are perfect gemstones, it says that a similar mechanic is occurring. I'm guessing that the similar mechanic is related to the Singer's spiritweb being built to hold investiture better. The taboo comes from the fact that they have gemhearts, and in the past humans desecrated their dead to get those gemhearts. Humans don't really need a reason to want shiny gemstones.

Besides that, current Radiants have no idea that singer gemhearts may have something weird going on, and almost certainly aren't going to test those gemhearts to find out.

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well they teleport the distance from the CR, so why should that be different?

Radiant spren aren't in the CR, they're mostly in the physical. So they don't have any distance to teleport, as they're near to the Radiant in the physical realm.

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Oathgates

I'm not saying that Surge Fabrials are impossible to get, or that they don't exist. I'm not saying that Radiants can't use the Oathgates. All I'm saying is that in the time it takes a Radiant to get their hands on a Gravitation Fabrial, a Mistborn could easily get a medallion that gives F-gold and F-steel and compound up a full set of steel plate armor made out of completely full steel metalminds, thereby basically nullifying the Radiant's Shardblade even disregarding the usefullness of the feruchemical attributes.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Plate doesn't bend, and the Radiant has enough mass that they won't get pushed backwards. So the full force of the coin will be transferred into the Plate, meaning it will crack a little. I agree that coins would be a rather inefficient  way to crack Plate, but larger metal objects (swords, ingots, armor pieces, horshoes, etc.) could work quite well.

By that logic anything that hits plate will cause it to crack. The coin will hit, and either deflect off, or the Mistborn will get launched away. The plate itself will be fine.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

That sounds really, really hard to aim, if it actually works. Also would be really Stormlight inefficient. Shardbow would be way better.

It would be as difficult to aim as a regular gun. And you only need a tiny fraction of stormlight, do break enough water down and then ignite the oxygen and hydrogen.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Only person we've ever seen grow plants uses Lifelight, which probably works much more efficiently than Stormlight for that purpose. And growing enough plants to reasonably catch the Mistborn hovering maybe ten feet in the air would, again, take a lot of Stormlight.

We've seen soulcasters make entire barracks, tree sized plants will be fine.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Chromium would get rid of that pretty quick.

That seems like leeching a coinshot by touching their coin. Or a rioter by touching the person they are affecting.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Travelling between realms is extremely difficult even for Jasnah, whose order is the best at Cognitive realms stuff. Unless they're fighting at an easy transfer point, this strategy won't work.

That's because Jasnah only cares about Transformation.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

I doubt this would work. Even if they could aim it, getting the stone to move fast enough to be practical would be difficult.

Well you can turn the entire barrel into a treadmill, so I don't think speed will be an issue.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

So the Radiant doesn't need air and carries a weeks worth of water and food on them? The hypocrisy is that you give the Radiant tons of Stormlight, and don't allow the Mistborn tons of Pewter or other metals.

If the Radiant needs stormlight for air so does the Mistborn, and only one of them can survive without it. Likewise Radiants will last longer without food or water than Mistborn would.

It's the same amount of Stormlight they usually have, they just don't inhale all of it at once, and return the stormlight to gems when not in use.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

And there are very few singer Radiants.

And how many Mistborn are there?

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

I'm not saying that Surge Fabrials are impossible to get, or that they don't exist. I'm not saying that Radiants can't use the Oathgates. All I'm saying is that in the time it takes a Radiant to get their hands on a Gravitation Fabrial, a Mistborn could easily get a medallion that gives F-gold and F-steel and compound up a full set of steel plate armor made out of completely full steel metalminds, thereby basically nullifying the Radiant's Shardblade even disregarding the usefullness of the feruchemical attributes.

No they couldn't. It takes Sazed weeks to fill up a single ring with charge(WoA page 484). Even going at ten times speed they wouldn't even be able to fill a bracer in that time.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Frustration

[therunner]

5 hours ago, Nameless said:

For the purposes of this thread, we're assuming a Mistborn exists. Furthermore, since that Mistborn exists, I am assuming they would have all the equipment that would be standard for a Mistborn if they existed in era 2, which is the current period we're at. I could extrapolate to the future, but we haven't seen what an era 3 Mistborn would look like, so I prefer, for the purpose of not basing my arguments entirely on assumptions, to use equipment that an era 2 Mistborn would use, and give the Radiant equipment that they have been shown to use around the same time period. If you want to give a Radiant all ten surge fabrials, that's fine. However, the argument I am interested in pursuing is the argument between a Mistborn that has reasonable era 2 equipment and a Radiant that has reasonable SA period equipment.

If the current period we are at is era 2, then we have to extrapolate equipment of Radiants, since Era 2 happens in the 15 year gap between book 5 and book 6.
In that case assuming Radiants slightly upgrade their equipment is completely justifiable. Radiants carrying some basic weapons on them to be able to counter anti-Light invested weapons is fair assumption, since now Shardblades are no longer indestructible. Similarly, carrying at least basic armor (possibly treated via Tension/Cohesion to make it superior) to hinder Raysium based weaponry is also only common sense.
 

Some basic fabrials are more speculative, and so I have not actually used them in any argument, however I feel you have double standards when you allow for Mistborn to have guns and specialized aluminum daggers, but only begrudgingly allow for Radiant to carry even a simple knife.

5 hours ago, Nameless said:

Not really a difference, since Fabrials are a distinct magic system from Surgebinding, only tangentially related just as Feruchemy and Hemalurgy are to Allomancy. If you disagree, feel free to explain how they work with normal physics. They are a system with rules that utilizes Investiture, and those rules are completely different from Radiancy. And while surge fabrials might not require initiation into Radiancy, they require something that's almost the same: a willing nahel spren. So not something that anyone with requisite knowledge could do. Something that anyone with requisite knowledge and requisite resources could do. Just like medallions

I will leave out surge fabrials, as those are distincing, however I would say that Surge Fabrials could fall into scope of Radiancy, in that a Radiant could ask their spren to temporarily form a Surge Fabrial. If that is a way to get them, then Surge Fabrials are simply another facet of Radiancy, so they are still distinct from Medallions, which have nothing to do with Allomancy.

For the regular fabrials, they can be explained using Cosmere physics without appealing to any specific Shard, so I would say they are not Invested Art per se. Creation of fabrial requires trapping of a spren (or other cognitive entity) near a gemstone (typically by attracting them with something they like, e.g. heat for flamespren) and then quickly removing Light from gemstone (via tuning forks or Larkin) where the resulting pressure differential sucks the spren into a gemstone. Then you create a metal wire frame defining it's functionality (although the type of gemstone and spren also plays a role).

Explaining functionality is difficult, simply because we don't know (and indeed Cosmere most likely does not have) any fully fixed underlying principles from which it could be derived. Fabrials seem to function along some measure of Cognitive principles, in that 'like draws like' for attractors for example, or detecting Investiture pulses for alerters. Currently it is not known why different gemstones are better suited for specific tasks, nor is there explanation for why different metals cause different effects.

You can see that at every step of the way, the artifabrian did not need to posses any Invested abilities, and neither did spren form any bond with the gemstone. Indeed the entire process could be feasibly automated, potentially the only step requiring Intent was the one with tuning forks, however that can be replaced by Larkin, who are animals.

The reason why I don't consider fabrials distinct magic system on the level of Feruchemy or Hemalurgy is simple, fabrials are not tied to a specific Shard. If all the Shards left Roshar, spren would still be there, so would Gemstones and most likely also a kind of Light (as the Highstorms predate arrival of Shards), so you could continue building fabrials, only missing out on those that require higher spren (so only Half-shards, from the classical fabrials).
So I would argue fabrials are not a kind of Invested Art, they are simply technology that operates on Cosmere principles instead of our own. Main evidence of this is that Sel has a kind of alerter fabrial few centuries prior to Roshar, which is clear evidence of fabrial principles being general and not specific.

Utilizing Investiture does not make for Invested Art, as Investiture is part of the universe of Cosmere same way as matter is. Would you say that Greatshells posses Invested arts, or that Singer ability to change forms is magic system?

Using that reasoning on Scadrial we have three Invested Arts that are Shard dependent (Allomancy, Feruchemy, Hemalurgy) and so far Medallions require Feruchemists to create (and maybe Hemalurgy depending on what Excisor is).
On Roshar we have seen three-ish Invested Arts that are Shard dependent (Surgebinding, Voidbinding, Old Magic), and regular fabrials can be created without appealing to none of them.

 

EDIT: Reading it now it can be a bit rambling, so I will try to do short summary. Basically I differentiate between Invested Arts and 'ordinary' magic. Ordinary magic is everything using Investiture (so Larkin, greatshells, Highstorm, Aimians, usage of silver, fabrials, etc.) however I see those as distinct from proper Invested Arts, which require Shard to function (i.e. Metallic Arts, Surgebinding, Old Magic, Voidbinding).

Now that we have Dawnshard we can have sort of test, would the person leveraging that magic be an issue due to possesing Dawnshard? We know that Dawnshard+Invested art = potentially cataclysmic stuff, yet Aimians have no issue with Rysn using fabrials, however equipping Rysn with medallion would be very bad (as she would now have command of Invested Art).

Hence fabrials are not magic system in the same way Radiancy or Allomancy are, but Medallions should count as Invested Art. Rosharan analog of Medallions would be Honorblades and not regular fabrials, in that both are mechanical means of accessing some Invested Art, in one case Metallic Arts, in the other Surgebinding.

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by therunner
spelling + summary

[NameIess]

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

By that logic anything that hits plate will cause it to crack. The coin will hit, and either deflect off, or the Mistborn will get launched away. The plate itself will be fine.

Yeah, it will crack a little bit. Not a lot, but a little bit. That seems fairly consistent with what we see in the books. It would take absolutely forever to break Plate that way, but it would eventually work.

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

It would be as difficult to aim as a regular gun. And you only need a tiny fraction of stormlight, do break enough water down and then ignite the oxygen and hydrogen.

Well, if we're giving the Radiant bullets and knowledge of how to make their spren into a gun barrel, or a gun barrel and spren bullets, then the Mistborn definitely gets a shotgun. Wax could break Plate in one shot from Vindication, so a shotgun shouldn't have any problems.

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

We've seen soulcasters make entire barracks, tree sized plants will be fine.

Soulcasters use a lot of Stormlight, and make the barracks in sections. Tree sized plants will not be fine. Besides, how fast can a Radiant actually cause the plants to grow? I don't think we've ever seen anyone make plants grow at a speed that would be very difficult to dodge.

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

That seems like leeching a coinshot by touching their coin. Or a rioter by touching the person they are affecting.

Except it's not at all like that, because Lightweaving illusions are made of Investiture, and are not something that is being affected by Investiture. No, I don't think it will leech the Radiant, but yes, it will get rid of the illusion.

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

That's because Jasnah only cares about Transformation.

Source?

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

Well you can turn the entire barrel into a treadmill, so I don't think speed will be an issue.

How fast can a Stoneward make stone move? upwards of 100 m/s?

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

If the Radiant needs stormlight for air so does the Mistborn, and only one of them can survive without it. Likewise Radiants will last longer without food or water than Mistborn would.

Alright, so the Radiant leaves air holes. What's stopping the Mistborn from just walking away and coming back later when the Radiant's not so prepared? What benefit does the Radiant get from bunkering down?

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

It's the same amount of Stormlight they usually have, they just don't inhale all of it at once, and return the stormlight to gems when not in use.

Fair.

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

And how many Mistborn are there?

So what? Is the average Radiant a Singer? Because I thought we were using average Radiants and average Mistborn. Both of which are human, except maybe Willshapers.

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

No they couldn't. It takes Sazed weeks to fill up a single ring with charge(WoA page 484). Even going at ten times speed they wouldn't even be able to fill a bracer in that time.

Ten times speed? Compounding gives way more than ten times speed. It's exponential returns. otherwise TLR wouldn't be able to spend maybe an hour or two compounding youth every day and be fine, even ignoring the massively increased youth requirements placed upon him by his age. That's not even accounting for duraluminum, which will massively speed up compounding again. Besides that, no Radiant besides maybe a Skybreaker could get their hands on any Surge Fabrial besides a Soulcaster in as short a time as a week. And even if they did, A Mistborn would still be so much more powerful with gold and steel compounding that it wouldn't even be funny.

9 hours ago, therunner said:

If the current period we are at is era 2, then we have to extrapolate equipment of Radiants, since Era 2 happens in the 15 year gap between book 5 and book 6.
In that case assuming Radiants slightly upgrade their equipment is completely justifiable. Radiants carrying some basic weapons on them to be able to counter anti-Light invested weapons is fair assumption, since now Shardblades are no longer indestructible. Similarly, carrying at least basic armor (possibly treated via Tension/Cohesion to make it superior) to hinder Raysium based weaponry is also only common sense.

Well, Shardblades are still indestructible, as the Raysium dagger was perfectly fine channeling anti-Voidlight. Some armor for Radiants of the Third ideal and below could make sense, but Tension/Cohesion treated armor would probably be less useful than normal steel for anyone besides a Stoneward.

9 hours ago, therunner said:

Some basic fabrials are more speculative, and so I have not actually used them in any argument, however I feel you have double standards when you allow for Mistborn to have guns and specialized aluminum daggers, but only begrudgingly allow for Radiant to carry even a simple knife.

Mistborn carry knives. And, after checking RoW, it appears that Radiants do too. So Radiants can have knives. Still won't help them much when grappling with a Mistborn while being leeched.

9 hours ago, therunner said:

For the regular fabrials, they can be explained using Cosmere physics without appealing to any specific Shard, so I would say they are not Invested Art per se. Creation of fabrial requires trapping of a spren (or other cognitive entity) near a gemstone (typically by attracting them with something they like, e.g. heat for flamespren) and then quickly removing Light from gemstone (via tuning forks or Larkin) where the resulting pressure differential sucks the spren into a gemstone. Then you create a metal wire frame defining it's functionality (although the type of gemstone and spren also plays a role).

Magic systems don't have to be associated with one specific Shard. Feruchemy is of Ruin and Preservation. And besides, the spren you use has to come from a Shard.

9 hours ago, therunner said:

You can see that at every step of the way, the artifabrian did not need to posses any Invested abilities, and neither did spren form any bond with the gemstone. Indeed the entire process could be feasibly automated, potentially the only step requiring Intent was the one with tuning forks, however that can be replaced by Larkin, who are animals.

Larkin are sapient, I don't think referring to them as animals is entirely accurate.

9 hours ago, therunner said:

The reason why I don't consider fabrials distinct magic system on the level of Feruchemy or Hemalurgy is simple, fabrials are not tied to a specific Shard. If all the Shards left Roshar, spren would still be there, so would Gemstones and most likely also a kind of Light (as the Highstorms predate arrival of Shards), so you could continue building fabrials, only missing out on those that require higher spren (so only Half-shards, from the classical fabrials).
So I would argue fabrials are not a kind of Invested Art, they are simply technology that operates on Cosmere principles instead of our own. Main evidence of this is that Sel has a kind of alerter fabrial few centuries prior to Roshar, which is clear evidence of fabrial principles being general and not specific.

If all the Shards left Roshar, then either sapient spren would still be there, or no spren would still be there. Modern-day spren are made of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium. Not just sapient spren, but all spren. Unless there's some spren from other Shards.

9 hours ago, therunner said:

Utilizing Investiture does not make for Invested Art, as Investiture is part of the universe of Cosmere same way as matter is. Would you say that Greatshells posses Invested arts, or that Singer ability to change forms is magic system?

Yes, I would. Singers have the ability to form a kind of bond with a spren that gives them various abilities and specializations, some mundane and some less so. Greatshells can bond with spren to make themselves lighter. That's a magic system. Bonding with spren in order to gain abilities. Just like Fabrials, trapping spren in order to use their attributes, is also a magic system.

9 hours ago, therunner said:

EDIT: Reading it now it can be a bit rambling, so I will try to do short summary. Basically I differentiate between Invested Arts and 'ordinary' magic. Ordinary magic is everything using Investiture (so Larkin, greatshells, Highstorm, Aimians, usage of silver, fabrials, etc.) however I see those as distinct from proper Invested Arts, which require Shard to function (i.e. Metallic Arts, Surgebinding, Old Magic, Voidbinding).

Now that we have Dawnshard we can have sort of test, would the person leveraging that magic be an issue due to possesing Dawnshard? We know that Dawnshard+Invested art = potentially cataclysmic stuff, yet Aimians have no issue with Rysn using fabrials, however equipping Rysn with medallion would be very bad (as she would now have command of Invested Art).

Hence fabrials are not magic system in the same way Radiancy or Allomancy are, but Medallions should count as Invested Art. Rosharan analog of Medallions would be Honorblades and not regular fabrials, in that both are mechanical means of accessing some Invested Art, in one case Metallic Arts, in the other Surgebinding.

I'm sure that the Aimians wouldn't have an issue if Rysn started practicing hemalurgy. Or if she managed to connect herself to MaiPom enough to become a forger. Neither of those invested arts require the user to be invested. And the Aimians only wanted Rysn to avoid bonding a spren. They didn't say anything about needing to avoid all invested arts.

I think we're arguing over semantics here. A modern-day Radiant could have access to fabrials, but they are not a part of the Radiant's natural powerset. A Mistborn could have access to medallions, but they are not part of their natural powerset. A Mistborn would be much more potent with medallions than a Radiant would be with surge fabrials. Whether or not you think fabrials are a magic system is up to a matter of philosophy:

Quote

Rhandric

How many magic systems are there on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on your definition. Is Windrunning its own magic system, or is it a division of a larger magic system? Are the ten different Surges each their own magic system, or...it's really how...

Rhandric

If you assume the surges are considered one.

Brandon Sanderson

Well then you would have Surgebinding, and the Old Magic, those are two at least, and there are things that are not explained in those at all, and how do you count creating fabrials? Is that a science and not a magic? Is that its own magic system?

Questioner 2

It's a science, because anyone can do it.

Brandon Sanderson

So Awakening is not a magic, then? Awakening's a science? Because anyone can Awaken if they just get the breath.

Rhandric

That's one thing that stood out to me in your magic systems, because in all your other magic systems that we've seen so far there has to be some form of snapping to occur, and that's unique...

Brandon Sanderson

Not all of them because, um, let's see...

Questioner 3

BioChroma doesn't.

Brandon Sanderson

BioChroma does not requires snapping.

Rhandric

Actually wait, is there an active magic system on Threnody?

Brandon Sanderson

 

Threnody has a non Shard-based...it depends on what you call magic. Do spirits coming back to life count as magic? It's science to them, but it's goofy science.

 

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

but Medallions and Fabrials are both magic, and both are available to a Mistborn and a Radiant respectively. If we let a Radiant have Fabrials, we should let the Mistborn have Medallions.