Frustration Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 (edited) Alright I suppose waiting for TLM was optimistic. And I have been preparing so time to test myself. On 6/27/2022 at 9:26 AM, Nameless said: Enough Atium and the Mistborn would win a straight-up fight against any order of Radiant, at any ideal. Truthwatchers. Quote 30-20 a particularly small emerald "Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this." Spoiler Wyndlerunner So Renarin is not a normal Truthwatcher, whether you want to call him Corrupted or Enlightened. Is he the first Truthwatcher of this kind to have existed? Brandon Sanderson What an excellent question. Yes he is. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) On 6/27/2022 at 1:40 PM, Nameless said: In other words, the Plate spren are always prepared to be summoned, but are invisible and unsummoned most of the time, just like a Radiant spren normally is. I don't see anything that implies Plate is constantly solid, and I see plenty (Lirin hugging Kaladin without noticing that his chest has somehow expanded to at least double its normal size) that implies it isn't. Why the need for the italics on "always there" in that case? On 6/28/2022 at 6:32 AM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I feel like the unusual weapons and equipment that one side doesn't usually have access to is the entire point of the discussion. Radiant vs mistborn is never a discussion about power vs power. It is always that radiants have access to 1 shot weapon and indestructible plate that can cocoon them 100% and turn invisible. I have very rarely seen the argument for radiants in the 100s of pages worth of threads like this actually argue in favor of the radiants magic itself. It is their equipment that the enemy doesn't have access to that makes the argument in favor of them. So why would we disqualify discussion of Scadrial tech. Guns and a wide knowledge of aluminums anti magic properties are what scadrial has in place of being a walking tank. Because shardblades and plate are part of Radiant magic. And I'll get around to surges later. So I will allow each side one "give me", for Scadrial that will be access to all sixteen metals I will even allow for some atium, and for Roshar that will be knowledge on how to use the surges to maximum potential. While also assuming each side knows what the other can do. A few noted just before we begin Shardplate would greatly resist leaching, assuming it even needs it in the first place. Spoiler Questioner Elhokar's assassination attempt, the drained spheres [from his Plate] - was that <him> Surgebinding? Brandon Sanderson That's a RAFO. Good question. [...] Let me say this. Drawing the Stormlight from an active set of Shards is very difficult to do. Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014) Second to create a "buffer" against leaching all a radiant has to do is eat some gold. It's non-toxic so Stormlight won't destroy it while also being a non-invested metal so leaching will go for it before going for the Stormlight, and with the speed that Chromium burns that's a big problem. Spoiler Kaymyth I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings. Brandon Sanderson What it boils down to is this: 1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off. 2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds. 3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal. ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015) Radiants use spheres to hold their stormlight, but most of a sphere is glass, with the gem itself being only a few mg. Even broams are only 400 mg. If they used full gems instead of spheres they would have much more stormlight. And I will now follow that up with a break down by each order. Windrunners have a command of flight that would make even the most talented mistborn green with envy, reverse lashings are strong enough to pull bullets, so they will have zero trouble with coins. Windrunners also generally attract people with high proficency with weapons, so their order will have a large number of people able to overcome Atium. And if they can figure out how to reproduce Kal's trick of manipulating air pressure, then they can use an invisible attack(meaning atium won't give warning) by quickly dropping air pressure and causing the mistborn to pass out. Skybreakers have similar commands of the skies, while also possesing division, enabling them to burn anyone even close to them to a crisp. I don't care how much atium a Mistborn is burning, they can't dodge a cloud of smoke a flame extending five feet out in all directions. Dustbringers are one of the orders we have seen the least from, but they can burn rock itself, anything that gets within their range is going up in smoke. They can't fly, but abrasion gives them just as much mobility, and burning a mistborns anchors will force them to the ground. Nothing can really touch them as with a combination of their surges anything that hits them will slide off as it has no friction, while also breaking apart at the molecular level. Edgedancers are more suited for feild medics, but they have a nasty bag of tricks to use. Abrasion makes them almost impossible to hit, and also increadibly fast. Progression gives them increased healing even next to other orders and a weapon. By using growth on vinebud seeds specifically cultivated for this purpose, they can entangle a mistborn in plants, trapping them without a fight. Atium is good but it can't help you dodge from hundreds of pounds of plant matter coming at you in a missive wall. Truthwatchers are generally considered one of the least intimidating radiants from a combat persepective. Anyone who tells you this isn't thinking about it. As shown above Truthwatchers can see the future, they are outright immune to Atium. And they can grow massive vine walls to entrap their opponents, while also having an increadible healing factor. Also they can make lasers and cut anyone they fight in half with them. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) [Discussion of Lightweavers manipulating other forms of electromagnetic radiation] But the ultimate form (That Brandon said would be too much to be practical both in needed stormlight and application) would be the control of Gamma Radiation. If this could be harnessed, Lightweavers could literally become mini nukes, or death guns. The biggest downside to making Gamma radiation would be the damage the lightweaver would most likely suffer. So gamma radiation is impractical but its a fun thought experiment. The best part of this whole speculation was how excited Brandon was about my train of thought. I don't know if anyone had brought up this train of thought before. But he was happy to remind me that things will get pretty interesting when Lightweavers discover lasers and start using them in combat. Miscellaneous 2016 (July 3, 2016) Lightweavers have the intresting ability of naturally hiding themselves from investiture detection as we see in the Kholinar invasion. However I don't think that will be that much of an advantage, really what Lightweavers want to do is just soulcast their opponents or use lasers. Elsecallers are one of the four orders I would say could theoretically beat a Fullborn. Soulcasting is a dnagerous art unto itself, just soulcast the air around your opponent into molten aluminum and watch as it burns through their skin and kills them because they can't heal from it. But not only that Elsecallers can do that while sitting in another realm of reality. Honestly the only way to kill a prepared Elsecaller is to have a way to travel the realms, otherwise pray they don't want to kill you. Willshapers are the second order that may be able to take a fullborn. The fact that cohesion can make nukes is just insane to me, as long as the radiant stays out of the heavy damage zone, they can just blow their opponent to shreds while they stay safe inside their plate. And not only that but they can make stone walls to protect them from incoming attacks, sink Mistborn's coins, and travel between the realms and these are a seriously deadly order. Stonewards are the third order that can take fullborn on. Not only will a large number of them be able to overcome atium, but they can make nukes, increase their physical strength, form stone shelters, sink mistborn anchors, and so much more. Talnelat knew what he was doing picking this order. Bondsmiths are probably the most broken powerset we have seen from the published cosmere bar none, fullborn included. Not only do they get practically infinate investiture they have a perpedicularity, a way to physically strengthen themselves, the ability to modify other radiants surges, and admin powers to people's souls. Of all the powers in the cosmere this is the one that scares me the most. Edited June 30, 2022 by Frustration
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 7 hours ago, Frustration said: Alright I suppose waiting for TLM was optimistic. And I have been preparing so time to test myself. Truthwatchers. Hide contents Wyndlerunner So Renarin is not a normal Truthwatcher, whether you want to call him Corrupted or Enlightened. Is he the first Truthwatcher of this kind to have existed? Brandon Sanderson What an excellent question. Yes he is. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) Why the need for the italics on "always there" in that case? Because shardblades and plate are part of Radiant magic. And I'll get around to surges later. So I will allow each side one "give me", for Scadrial that will be access to all sixteen metals I will even allow for some atium, and for Roshar that will be knowledge on how to use the surges to maximum potential. While also assuming each side knows what the other can do. A few noted just before we begin Shardplate would greatly resist leaching, assuming it even needs it in the first place. Hide contents Questioner Elhokar's assassination attempt, the drained spheres [from his Plate] - was that <him> Surgebinding? Brandon Sanderson That's a RAFO. Good question. [...] Let me say this. Drawing the Stormlight from an active set of Shards is very difficult to do. Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014) Second to create a "buffer" against leaching all a radiant has to do is eat some gold. It's non-toxic so Stormlight won't destroy it while also being a non-invested metal so leaching will go for it before going for the Stormlight, and with the speed that Chromium burns that's a big problem. Hide contents Kaymyth I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings. Brandon Sanderson What it boils down to is this: 1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off. 2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds. 3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal. ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015) Radiants use spheres to hold their stormlight, but most of a sphere is glass, with the gem itself being only a few mg. Even broams are only 400 mg. If they used full gems instead of spheres they would have much more stormlight. And I will now follow that up with a break down by each order. Windrunners have a command of flight that would make even the most talented mistborn green with envy, reverse lashings are strong enough to pull bullets, so they will have zero trouble with coins. Windrunners also generally attract people with high proficency with weapons, so their order will have a large number of people able to overcome Atium. And if they can figure out how to reproduce Kal's trick of manipulating air pressure, then they can use an invisible attack(meaning atium won't give warning) by quickly dropping air pressure and causing the mistborn to pass out. Skybreakers have similar commands of the skies, while also possesing division, enabling them to burn anyone even close to them to a crisp. I don't care how much atium a Mistborn is burning, they can't dodge a cloud of smoke a flame extending five feet out in all directions. Dustbringers are one of the orders we have seen the least from, but they can burn rock itself, anything that gets within their range is going up in smoke. They can't fly, but abrasion gives them just as much mobility, and burning a mistborns anchors will force them to the ground. Nothing can really touch them as with a combination of their surges anything that hits them will slide off as it has no friction, while also breaking apart at the molecular level. Edgedancers are more suited for feild medics, but they have a nasty bag of tricks to use. Abrasion makes them almost impossible to hit, and also increadibly fast. Progression gives them increased healing even next to other orders and a weapon. By using growth on vinebud seeds specifically cultivated for this purpose, they can entangle a mistborn in plants, trapping them without a fight. Atium is good but it can't help you dodge from hundreds of pounds of plant matter coming at you in a missive wall. Truthwatchers are generally considered one of the least intimidating radiants from a combat persepective. Anyone who tells you this isn't thinking about it. As shown above Truthwatchers can see the future, they are outright immune to Atium. And they can grow massive vine walls to entrap their opponents, while also having an increadible healing factor. Also they can make lasers and cut anyone they fight in half with them. Hide contents Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) [Discussion of Lightweavers manipulating other forms of electromagnetic radiation] But the ultimate form (That Brandon said would be too much to be practical both in needed stormlight and application) would be the control of Gamma Radiation. If this could be harnessed, Lightweavers could literally become mini nukes, or death guns. The biggest downside to making Gamma radiation would be the damage the lightweaver would most likely suffer. So gamma radiation is impractical but its a fun thought experiment. The best part of this whole speculation was how excited Brandon was about my train of thought. I don't know if anyone had brought up this train of thought before. But he was happy to remind me that things will get pretty interesting when Lightweavers discover lasers and start using them in combat. Miscellaneous 2016 (July 3, 2016) Lightweavers have the intresting ability of naturally hiding themselves from investiture detection as we see in the Kholinar invasion. However I don't think that will be that much of an advantage, really what Lightweavers want to do is just soulcast their opponents or use lasers. Elsecallers are one of the four orders I would say could theoretically beat a Fullborn. Soulcasting is a dnagerous art unto itself, just soulcast the air around your opponent into molten aluminum and watch as it burns through their skin and kills them because they can't heal from it. But not only that Elsecallers can do that while sitting in another realm of reality. Honestly the only way to kill a prepared Elsecaller is to have a way to travel the realms, otherwise pray they don't want to kill you. Willshapers are the second order that may be able to take a fullborn. The fact that cohesion can make nukes is just insane to me, as long as the radiant stays out of the heavy damage zone, they can just blow their opponent to shreds while they stay safe inside their plate. And not only that but they can make stone walls to protect them from incoming attacks, sink Mistborn's coins, and travel between the realms and these are a seriously deadly order. Stonewards are the third order that can take fullborn on. Not only will a large number of them be able to overcome atium, but they can make nukes, increase their physical strength, form stone shelters, sink mistborn anchors, and so much more. Talnelat knew what he was doing picking this order. Bondsmiths are probably the most broken powerset we have seen from the published cosmere bar none, fullborn included. Not only do they get practically infinate investiture they have a perpedicularity, a way to physically strengthen themselves, the ability to modify other radiants surges, and admin powers to people's souls. Of all the powers in the cosmere this is the one that scares me the most. If a mistborn knows the powerset of a radiant then fighting in an open field would be a no go. No mistborn who understands there is no way to win in a head to head would choose to go into a head to head (barring the end of the world scenarios). Knowing the powerset probably comes with knowing that knights are limited by oaths. Live a peaceful life and very passively sooth for as long as you can until you can get a 1 shot on the radiant. There are very few orders who would smile down on outright murder to kill the mistborn who isn't trying to kill you. Once they do they get 1 shot. Disqualifying aluminum weaponry from everyone but the radiants of specific orders seems suspicious but I get the idea of sticking to only what your magic set offers you. Just sit and wait. If a radiant wants to risk their oaths and sprens life to murder you then so be it. Mistborn have that 1 thing that gives an advantage. They are able to be cold-blooded killers and have zero negative consequences magic system wise.
Frustration Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 42 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Knowing the powerset probably comes with knowing that knights are limited by oaths. Live a peaceful life and very passively sooth for as long as you can until you can get a 1 shot on the radiant. There are very few orders who would smile down on outright murder to kill the mistborn who isn't trying to kill you. Once they do they get 1 shot. That's the same as saying "Have screamer spren alert skybreakers where all the mistborn are and then kill them in their sleep" It's not a fight, and is therefore not within the realm of this thread. 44 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Disqualifying aluminum weaponry from everyone but the radiants of specific orders seems suspicious but I get the idea of sticking to only what your magic set offers you. I never said that.
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 23 minutes ago, Frustration said: That's the same as saying "Have screamer spren alert skybreakers where all the mistborn are and then kill them in their sleep" It's not a fight, and is therefore not within the realm of this thread. I never said that. Then I misunderstood this and that is all fine. Quote Because shardblades and plate are part of Radiant magic. And I'll get around to surges later. So I will allow each side one "give me", for Scadrial that will be access to all sixteen metals I will even allow for some atium, and for Roshar that will be knowledge on how to use the surges to maximum potential. While also assuming each side knows what the other can do. I feel like defining fight is the issue here. If fight is to destroy your enemy then knowing that they can't straight murder you while you can straight murder them and waiting for your best chance at success is a totally legitimate strategy. That comes with knowing the other persons skill set. Running and hiding until the other persons resources run out is in that same exact boat. If fighting is defined as a box where you will fight to the death system vs system then literally anyone in the cosmere short of a shard would well deserve the suicide they signed up for facing any of the radiant orders.
NameIess Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 On 6/29/2022 at 3:23 AM, therunner said: How will Mistborn attack from all sides, when steel and iron work on lines radiating away from Mistborn? At best they can attack from two sides at a time. Anything else would require skill on par with Kelsier, which is quite outside of ordinary. A Mistborn isn't standing in one place. They're moving around the Radiant, creating a metal cloud like Kelsier, who, might I remind you, didn't have a lifetime of practice with his powers. He only had what, a year or two? That's not much. Given a couple years of practice with their powers, a Mistborn should be able to replicate Kelsier's feat. On 6/29/2022 at 3:23 AM, therunner said: To paraphrase you, Fabrials could reasonably be part of standard Radiant equipment. Why deny themselves tools that would help them? I will point out again, that at least Fabrials and Radiants are contemporary, whereas Mistborn and guns are separated by ~200 years (as far as we currently know). So Radiant equipped with Fabrial is more "realistic" then Mistborn with gun. We know a modern-day Radiant's standard equipment. It's a bunch of spheres and their Blade/Plate. We don't know a modern-day Mistborn's equipment. I'm extrapolating from the equipment they used back in era 1, which was metals, mistcloak, coin pouch, and glass daggers. I'm guessing with the upgrade in tech, the Mistborn would get all the newly discovered metals and upgrade their daggers to some aluminum alloy. They'd probably also add guns into the loadout. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: Truthwatchers. Their foresight isn't going to protect them from Atium. It might make their Atium shadow a little bit unpredictable, but shouldn't cause a splitting affect unless they were currently in a vision. Atium's too focused on events that are just about to happen to be affected as much as longer-term futuresight. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: Why the need for the italics on "always there" in that case? Because Plate spren are always there, ready to be summoned. If they were always summoned, why don't Radiants just fight with it invisible? Wouldn't that be a much better tactical advantage than the intimidation one would get from wearing it visibly? The enemy would have no way of knowing which Radiants have Plate. Any ordinary-looking Soldier could be a Radiant with Plate and Blade. For that matter, would a Radiant really want to wear Plate constantly? It gets hot, and isn't too great for sitting in chairs. Seems to me that they'd dismiss it when off duty, even if it can be completely invisible and solid. 8 hours ago, Frustration said: Second to create a "buffer" against leaching all a radiant has to do is eat some gold. It's non-toxic so Stormlight won't destroy it while also being a non-invested metal so leaching will go for it before going for the Stormlight, and with the speed that Chromium burns that's a big problem. I do not believe that would work, as a Radiant cannot burn gold. Furthermore, I'm guessing that chromium will go for the investiture that is currently being used before the metal that is completely useless to the Radiant. Regardless, even if it does work like that, nicrosil will work just as well. Stormlight, unlike metals, is always being used for something, so using nicrosil and touching the radiant will instantly expend all of the Radiant's Stormlight. The Mistborn can also leech the Radiant, preventing them from summoning their Blade or Plate. (Also, where are you getting Chromium burning really fast from?) 9 hours ago, Frustration said: Radiants use spheres to hold their stormlight, but most of a sphere is glass, with the gem itself being only a few mg. Even broams are only 400 mg. If they used full gems instead of spheres they would have much more stormlight. Well, Mistborn normally use flakes of metal in liquid, but for this fight, they can just eat some nice chunks of the stuff, which should give them plenty of stores, even when using duraluminum. 9 hours ago, Frustration said: Windrunners have a command of flight that would make even the most talented mistborn green with envy, reverse lashings are strong enough to pull bullets, so they will have zero trouble with coins. Windrunners also generally attract people with high proficency with weapons, so their order will have a large number of people able to overcome Atium. And if they can figure out how to reproduce Kal's trick of manipulating air pressure, then they can use an invisible attack(meaning atium won't give warning) by quickly dropping air pressure and causing the mistborn to pass out. While Windrunners can fly faster overall, depending on the amount of anchors around them they are likely less maneuverable than a Mistborn. Same with Skybreakers. And Kal's only been able to manipulate air pressure like that using Windspren, and we haven't seen anyone else doing it, so it's likely unique to him. 9 hours ago, Frustration said: Windrunners also generally attract people with high proficency with weapons, so their order will have a large number of people able to overcome Atium. Might I remind you that the only time we've seen someone 'overcome' Atium, it was Vin, the most skilled Mistborn of all time, chosen by Preservation as a perfect heir, who barely managed to trick the Mistborn who was merely toying with her? He could have killed her a dozen times before she figured out that trick, and any prepared Mistborn will be prepared for such a stunt. I'm seeing a big trend of you underestimating Atium, so I'll just address that here all in one go: 9 hours ago, Frustration said: I don't care how much atium a Mistborn is burning, they can't dodge a cloud of smoke a flame extending five feet out in all directions. 9 hours ago, Frustration said: Atium is good but it can't help you dodge from hundreds of pounds of plant matter coming at you in a missive wall. Yes they can dodge. Also making that many plants like that would take a ton of stormlight. 9 hours ago, Frustration said: Not only will a large number of them be able to overcome atium No, they can't. It would take somebody on the skill level of the Heralds to overcome Atium consistently. Ordinary soldiers will have no chance of pulling that off. Now, on to my other big issue: We don't know enough. You're giving Radiants powers that may not even be possible (cohesion nukes) or that they won't have till at least era 3, (lasers). Why don't the Mistborn get that same benefit? Answer: We don't know how their powers work well enough to know what will be possible in the future. For all we know, Chromium could completely negate long range surges of any kind. What if burning Chromium and touching stone that's being liquified by a Stoneward is enough of a connection to suck out all the Radiant's stormlight? What if there's a way to use time bubbles to shoot gamma rays at enemies or railgun projectiles? What if burning Duraluminum and Chromium completely leeches all investiture in a hundred-yard radius, and forces Plate and Blade to dismiss? We know more about what future Radiants might be able to do than we do future Mistborn (If they don't all just use Fullborn medallions in the future), so it's not fair to give the advantadge of knowledge. 9 hours ago, Frustration said: Elsecallers are one of the four orders I would say could theoretically beat a Fullborn. Soulcasting is a dnagerous art unto itself, just soulcast the air around your opponent into molten aluminum and watch as it burns through their skin and kills them because they can't heal from it. But not only that Elsecallers can do that while sitting in another realm of reality. Honestly the only way to kill a prepared Elsecaller is to have a way to travel the realms, otherwise pray they don't want to kill you. They'd need a lot of Stormlight to Soulcast a regular human, let alone a Mistborn burning metals. Jasnah, a fourth ideal Radiant who is probably the best soulcaster on Roshar outside of the fused, says that the souls of ordinary, uninvested men normally 'resist mightily'. A Mistborn burning electrum could easily see that they suddenly turn into stone or fire and start flaring all their metals, as well as just flying away so that their cognitive aspect gets away from the Elsecaller, who'll struggle to keep up with them. 9 hours ago, Frustration said: Stonewards are the third order that can take fullborn on. Not only will a large number of them be able to overcome atium, but they can make nukes, increase their physical strength, form stone shelters, sink mistborn anchors, and so much more. Talnelat knew what he was doing picking this order. 9 hours ago, Frustration said: Elsecallers are one of the four orders I would say could theoretically beat a Fullborn. Soulcasting is a dnagerous art unto itself, just soulcast the air around your opponent into molten aluminum and watch as it burns through their skin and kills them because they can't heal from it. But not only that Elsecallers can do that while sitting in another realm of reality. Honestly the only way to kill a prepared Elsecaller is to have a way to travel the realms, otherwise pray they don't want to kill you. Willshapers are the second order that may be able to take a fullborn. The fact that cohesion can make nukes is just insane to me, as long as the radiant stays out of the heavy damage zone, they can just blow their opponent to shreds while they stay safe inside their plate. And not only that but they can make stone walls to protect them from incoming attacks, sink Mistborn's coins, and travel between the realms and these are a seriously deadly order. Stonewards are the third order that can take fullborn on. Not only will a large number of them be able to overcome atium, but they can make nukes, increase their physical strength, form stone shelters, sink mistborn anchors, and so much more. Talnelat knew what he was doing picking this order. Bondsmiths are probably the most broken powerset we have seen from the published cosmere bar none, fullborn included. Not only do they get practically infinate investiture they have a perpedicularity, a way to physically strengthen themselves, the ability to modify other radiants surges, and admin powers to people's souls. Of all the powers in the cosmere this is the one that scares me the most. Not that I want to start a Fullborn argument again, but there is still no Radiant order that beats superspeed+pewter smash on the plate followed by leeching all the stormlight away. and a crushed skull. I'm not going to argue that Bondsmiths are weaker than Fullborn (because they're not), but they are still vulnerable to speedblitzing. Assassination is the only way I see to beat a Fullborn. 55 minutes ago, Frustration said: That's the same as saying "Have screamer spren alert skybreakers where all the mistborn are and then kill them in their sleep" Not really. Skybreakers don't have screamer spren as part of their moveset, and Mistborn would be able to hide from them with copper anyways.
The Wandering Wizard he/him Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 If a mistborn burned duralumin and then chromium would it be enough to drain the stormlight as normal chromium wouldn't be enough.
NameIess Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 5 minutes ago, The Wandering Wizard said: If a mistborn burned duralumin and then chromium would it be enough to drain the stormlight as normal chromium wouldn't be enough. Normal chromium should be enough. We've never seen chromium being anything other than instant.
Rg2045 Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 22 minutes ago, Nameless said: Normal chromium should be enough. We've never seen chromium being anything other than instant. Flacks vs loads of stormlight? Yeah seems like you are using incompetent data
Frustration Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 8 minutes ago, Nameless said: Their foresight isn't going to protect them from Atium. It might make their Atium shadow a little bit unpredictable, but shouldn't cause a splitting affect unless they were currently in a vision. Atium's too focused on events that are just about to happen to be affected as much as longer-term futuresight. When has the specific time that your enemy is foreseeing been a factor in how your future sight reacts? Even the tiny foresight of electrum completly negates Atium. 13 minutes ago, Nameless said: I do not believe that would work, as a Radiant cannot burn gold. Furthermore, I'm guessing that chromium will go for the investiture that is currently being used before the metal that is completely useless to the Radiant. Regardless, even if it does work like that, nicrosil will work just as well. Stormlight, unlike metals, is always being used for something, so using nicrosil and touching the radiant will instantly expend all of the Radiant's Stormlight. The Mistborn can also leech the Radiant, preventing them from summoning their Blade or Plate. (Also, where are you getting Chromium burning really fast from?) Nicrubursting won't work through plate, and assuming the mistborn engages in the fight first is giving them an unfair leg up. Chromium burns as fast as duralumin Spoiler Kaymyth I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings. Brandon Sanderson What it boils down to is this: 1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off. 2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds. 3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal. ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015) 16 minutes ago, Nameless said: Well, Mistborn normally use flakes of metal in liquid, but for this fight, they can just eat some nice chunks of the stuff, which should give them plenty of stores, even when using duraluminum. It won't matter how much metal they eat duralumin will burn all of it away if used together. 17 minutes ago, Nameless said: While Windrunners can fly faster overall, depending on the amount of anchors around them they are likely less maneuverable than a Mistborn. Same with Skybreakers. They can instantly change direction without slowing down. They are FAR more maneuverable than mistborn. 18 minutes ago, Nameless said: And Kal's only been able to manipulate air pressure like that using Windspren, and we haven't seen anyone else doing it, so it's likely unique to him. We haven't seen anyone else do Kelsier's trick with metal rods, so it's likely unique to him. 19 minutes ago, Nameless said: Might I remind you that the only time we've seen someone 'overcome' Atium, it was Vin, the most skilled Mistborn of all time, chosen by Preservation as a perfect heir, who barely managed to trick the Mistborn who was merely toying with her? He could have killed her a dozen times before she figured out that trick, and any prepared Mistborn will be prepared for such a stunt. No, they can't. It would take somebody on the skill level of the Heralds to overcome Atium consistently. Ordinary soldiers will have no chance of pulling that off. How fortunate that Stonewards take after Taln, the most skilled Herald ever and Windrunners aren't far behind. Quote “Now, as each order was thus matched to the nature and temperament of the Herald it named patron, there was none more archetypal of this than the Stonewards, who followed after Talenelat'Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of War: they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability. Alas, they took less care for imprudent practice of their stubbornness, even in the face of proven error. ” —Chapter 13, page 1[9] Brandon Sanderson Stoneward I will be there when I'm needed Stoneward oaths focus on team dynamics, on learning to work with others, and on being there for those who need them. They put the interests of others before their own, and will not bend their Ideals for the sake of convenience. Stonewards are the infantry and ground troops of the Radiants and are renowned as their finest soldiers. (A title that, on occasion, the Windrunners dispute.) They tend to attract those who are most interested in warfare, prowess with weapons, or athletics of any sort. They like a challenge, and in times of peace are seen engaging in (and running) various sporting events of both a military and non-military nature. Many enjoy the outdoors, and you’ll find exploration enthusiasts among them, as well as those who just like the fresh air. They tend to be known for their can-do attitudes and for taking on enormous projects (sometimes more than they can handle). However, most agree that the primary attribute of the Stonewards is their dependability. Though sometimes gregarious, they are never flighty. If a Stoneward is your friend, they will be there for you, and that is a core tenet of their Order—to be there when they are needed. Another key attribute is their ability to take a difficult situation with few resources and make something better of it. Though not known as inventors or creators, they are good at improvising solutions to problems in the moment. The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020) So no, Stonewards and Windrunners will have a massive selection bias in favor of people skilled enough to overcome atium. 34 minutes ago, Nameless said: Yes they can dodge. Also making that many plants like that would take a ton of stormlight. You cannot doge into a place where the is no room for your body. It's not a skill issue it's a physics issue. 36 minutes ago, Nameless said: Now, on to my other big issue: We don't know enough. You're giving Radiants powers that may not even be possible (cohesion nukes) or that they won't have till at least era 3, (lasers). Why don't the Mistborn get that same benefit? Answer: We don't know how their powers work well enough to know what will be possible in the future. For all we know, Chromium could completely negate long range surges of any kind. What if burning Chromium and touching stone that's being liquified by a Stoneward is enough of a connection to suck out all the Radiant's stormlight? What if there's a way to use time bubbles to shoot gamma rays at enemies or railgun projectiles? What if burning Duraluminum and Chromium completely leeches all investiture in a hundred-yard radius, and forces Plate and Blade to dismiss? We know more about what future Radiants might be able to do than we do future Mistborn (If they don't all just use Fullborn medallions in the future), so it's not fair to give the advantadge of knowledge. I am giving Mistborn the same benefit. Mistborn will not have all sixteen metals until era 3, and I'm even considering them having atium to boot. 37 minutes ago, Nameless said: They'd need a lot of Stormlight to Soulcast a regular human, let alone a Mistborn burning metals. Jasnah, a fourth ideal Radiant who is probably the best soulcaster on Roshar outside of the fused, says that the souls of ordinary, uninvested men normally 'resist mightily'. A Mistborn burning electrum could easily see that they suddenly turn into stone or fire and start flaring all their metals, as well as just flying away so that their cognitive aspect gets away from the Elsecaller, who'll struggle to keep up with them. Why would you soulcast them? It would be so much easier to place them in a solid aluminum cube. Or molten aluminum.
NameIess Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Rg2045 said: Flacks vs loads of stormlight? Yeah seems like you are using incompetent data That's the thing: WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH STORMING DATA! We don't have conversion rates between Investiture. We don't know how a couple minutes of steel compares to stormlight. I'm guessing that Chromium will get rid of investiture extremely quickly, because that's what we've seen it do. I could be completely wrong. Maybe a few minutes of steel is equivalant to only a few chips of Stormlight. I'm just going with what would make sense, given that this is a book. It's not going to take forever, it might not be instant, but it'll be really quick. 44 minutes ago, Frustration said: When has the specific time that your enemy is foreseeing been a factor in how your future sight reacts? Even the tiny foresight of electrum completly negates Atium. The further the future, the more it splits. The closer, the easier to predict. A Truthwatcher's Atium shadow would be unstable, yes. However, seeing a bit of your future will not fundamentally change the way you fight. It will make your decisions unpredictable, but I doubt it would completely block Atium. However, I don't really want to argue this point, as we both know all the evidence and I doubt I can convincingly change your mind. 44 minutes ago, Frustration said: Nicrubursting won't work through plate, and assuming the mistborn engages in the fight first is giving them an unfair leg up. Well, surprise does give a Mistborn the advantadge, but a 'fair' fight on a battlefield gives the Radiant an advantage. Mistborn are assassins by nature, not soldiers. As I have said, a fourth ideal Radiant of any order would almost certainly win against any Mistborn without tons of Atium, assuming the combat skill levels are relatively similar. 44 minutes ago, Frustration said: Chromium burns as fast as duralumin How fast does duraluminum burn. 44 minutes ago, Frustration said: It won't matter how much metal they eat duralumin will burn all of it away if used together. Yes it does matter. Duraluminum is not instant, just as aluminum is not instant. The rate of burning is merely accelerated drastically. 44 minutes ago, Frustration said: They can instantly change direction without slowing down. They are FAR more maneuverable than mistborn. Not how that works. They can't get rid of their momentum, merely accelerate themselves in any direction. 44 minutes ago, Frustration said: We haven't seen anyone else do Kelsier's trick with metal rods, so it's likely unique to him. We kinda do. Wax was able to see and push on a bullet as separate parts even as a child. With enough practice, any Mistborn could do it. 44 minutes ago, Frustration said: How fortunate that Stonewards take after Taln, the most skilled Herald ever and Windrunners aren't far behind. Yeah, no. taking after the 'nature and temperament' of a herald does not mean you are just as skilled as the man with thousands of years of combat experience and the body of a supersoldier. 44 minutes ago, Frustration said: So no, Stonewards and Windrunners will have a massive selection bias in favor of people skilled enough to overcome atium. Only problem is there's no one besides literally the heralds that's skilled enough to do that. out of the people we've seen in SA, I'd say Kaladin, Szeth, and maybe Dalinar and Adolin would be able to replicate Vin's success under the same circumstances. Probably some of the Fused too. Under normal circumstances? You know how Wax said he didn't know anyone who could react to someone drawing a pistol and outdraw them? it's like that. Not happening. 44 minutes ago, Frustration said: You cannot doge into a place where the is no room for your body. It's not a skill issue it's a physics issue. I dunno, a Mistborn can move quite far in the few seconds they get. 44 minutes ago, Frustration said: I am giving Mistborn the same benefit. Mistborn will not have all sixteen metals until era 3, and I'm even considering them having atium to boot. A Mistborn would have all 16 metals in era 2. You're saying they'll discover no new ways to use their powers in 300 years? What if they figure out how to keep up a speed bubble while outside it? They could trap a Radiant in slowed time. We don't know what a Mistborn with full knowledge of their powers would look like, even less than we know what a Radiant with full knowledge would. 44 minutes ago, Frustration said: Why would you soulcast them? It would be so much easier to place them in a solid aluminum cube. Or molten aluminum. Fair. Aluminum does seem to be pretty hard to soulcast en masse, or else Fused would have done so. Edited June 30, 2022 by Nameless
Frustration Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 5 minutes ago, Nameless said: How fast does duraluminum burn. Given that the speed of burning is equivelent to the work done, it's probably one of the fastest. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson The longest lasting of the Allomantic metals is actually copper, which is used by Smokers to hide Allomancy. Tin is second, however. Steel and Iron are actually rather quick, but since they're generally used in bursts, it's hard to notice. Both brass and zinc are medium, as is bronze. Pewter burns the fastest of the basic eight, though atium and gold both burn faster than it does. In my mind, it's related to how much 'work' the metal has to do. That's why pewter, steel, and iron burn so quickly. A lot of weight and power is getting thrown around, while copper only has to do something simple. However, I never really set any of these things hard-fast. And, only atium is really all that rare. Because of the value of the metals, the noble houses expended a lot of resources finding and exploiting mines to produce the metals. This resulted in a slightly higher value for most of them as opposed to our world, but not really noticeably so, because Allomancers really don't need that much metal. Even fast burning metals, like pewter, are generally only swallowed in very small amounts. (i.e. A small bit goes a long way.) TWG Posts (July 31, 2006) 18 minutes ago, Nameless said: Yes it does matter. Duraluminum is not instant, just as aluminum is not instant. The rate of burning is merely accelerated drastically. Aluminum is instant Quote "Finally, Vin relented, burning the metal. Immediately, all of her other metal reserves vanished." -The Final Empire page 499 As is duralumin, any metals burnt with it go instantly, though the metal itself just burns normally. Spoiler Questioner What happens if you burn duralumin while Compounding? Brandon Sanderson Duralumin while Compounding. So, what duralumin does is it burns out of all of your metal in one burst. So it doesn't necessarily gain you power, it makes it all happen at the same time. The same thing would happen. Questioner Could you turn into a baby? Brandon Sanderson Oh, you could totally turn into a baby. That is within the power of using that, doing <health wrong>, yeah you could totally... You'd be really dangerous. Questioner But it wouldn't really do much? Brandon Sanderson Oh it would have explosive... it does things really fast. That's what it does. Yes you could achieve very powerful sudden effects through that. It'd be scary. Controlling it can be dangerous, regardless of which metal you use. Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016) 31 minutes ago, Nameless said: Not how that works. They can't get rid of their momentum, merely accelerate themselves in any direction. I didn't think about momentum good catch, but that's still negigable when you can simply add another lashing. 37 minutes ago, Nameless said: We kinda do. Wax was able to see and push on a bullet as separate parts even as a child. With enough practice, any Mistborn could do it. But he doesn't pull on the other end, he doesn't make a cloud of spinning metal. And on top of that why should Kaladin have special powers exclusive to him? 41 minutes ago, Nameless said: Yeah, no. taking after the 'nature and temperament' of a herald does not mean you are just as skilled as the man with thousands of years of combat experience and the body of a supersoldier. It clearly extends beyond that, the WoB there says that Stonewards were the masters of combat for all radiant orders. That cannot just be a fluke, especially for it to last so long, and to extend to a common intrest for them. There are selective pressures in the order of Stonewards pushing for strong combatants, and Windrunners aren't far behind. 43 minutes ago, Nameless said: Only problem is there's no one besides literally the heralds that's skilled enough to do that. out of the people we've seen in SA, I'd say Kaladin, Szeth, and maybe Dalinar and Adolin would be able to replicate Vin's success under the same circumstances. Probably some of the Fused too. Under normal circumstances? You know how Wax said he didn't know anyone who could react to someone drawing a pistol and outdraw them? it's like that. Not happening. We are talking about a planet that has named(and used) a technique for catching a shardblade mid-swing. Roshar just on a base level has much more competent fighters than Scadrial does. And of those the best will be drawn to Radiance, and the best of those will be in Windrunners and Stonewards. Now not all of them will be able to do it, but it will be a significant amount. 1 hour ago, Nameless said: I dunno, a Mistborn can move quite far in the few seconds they get. All it takes is one pant wrapping its vines around them, and they lose a lot of mobility. And avoiding every seed tossed with a plate enhanced throw is going to be insanely hard because either you run and don't get the speed of steel, or you jump and lose the fine control needed to use Atium. 1 hour ago, Nameless said: A Mistborn would have all 16 metals in era 2. And how many Mistborn exist in era 2? How much atium? 1 hour ago, Nameless said: You're saying they'll discover no new ways to use their powers in 300 years? No, but I already gave them their "Give me" 1 hour ago, Nameless said: What if they figure out how to keep up a speed bubble while outside it? Given that they couldn't figure out how to do that with copperclouds, which are far more mobile and they've had over a thousand years to do it, won't happen. 1 hour ago, Nameless said: Fair. Still means that assassination is the only option against a Fullborn. And aluminum seems to be pretty hard to soulcast en masse, or else Fused would have done so. Fused also have differnet uses for the surges than Radiants.
Rg2045 Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 12 minutes ago, Frustration said: We are talking about a planet that has named(and used) a technique for catching a shardblade mid-swing. Roshar just on a base level has much more competent fighters than Scadrial does. And of those the best will be drawn to Radiance, and the best of those will be in Windrunners and Stonewards. Made me laugh considering how insane and true this is. I mean for crying out loud how many times has a radiant been stabbed/broken something and shrug it off after healing
NameIess Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 32 minutes ago, Frustration said: Given that the speed of burning is equivelent to the work done, it's probably one of the fastest. Still, swallow a fair-sized chunk of the stuff and you'll have plenty of time. 32 minutes ago, Frustration said: Aluminum is instant Aluminum is extremely quick. Not instant. 32 minutes ago, Frustration said: As is duralumin, any metals burnt with it go instantly, though the metal itself just burns normally. Definitions of burst: a sudden issuing forth. a short, sudden, and intense effort. a sudden outbreak, typically short and often violent or noisy. Not an instant thing, it simply vastly increases the speed at which your metals burn. The more metal, the longer the burst lasts. Chromium burns stuff away at the same speed as aluminum. It's external aluminum, after all. So if Chromium isn't instant: Quote Kaymyth I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings. Brandon Sanderson What it boils down to is this: 1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off. 2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds. 3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal. ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015) Why is aluminum? 32 minutes ago, Frustration said: I didn't think about momentum good catch, but that's still negigable when you can simply add another lashing. A Mistborn can easily push off of anchors with varying strength, giving them a fine control that's difficult for a Radiant to get. 32 minutes ago, Frustration said: But he doesn't pull on the other end, he doesn't make a cloud of spinning metal Wax isn't a Mistborn, so he physically can't use A-iron. If he could, then with all the practice he has he'd be as good as or better than Kelsier in TFE. 32 minutes ago, Frustration said: It clearly extends beyond that, the WoB there says that Stonewards were the masters of combat for all radiant orders. That cannot just be a fluke, especially for it to last so long, and to extend to a common intrest for them. There are selective pressures in the order of Stonewards pushing for strong combatants, and Windrunners aren't far behind. Yes, they are strong warriors. No one is contending that. However, they are not near the level of a herald. That idea is completely ludicrous. 32 minutes ago, Frustration said: We are talking about a planet that has named(and used) a technique for catching a shardblade mid-swing. Roshar just on a base level has much more competent fighters than Scadrial does. And of those the best will be drawn to Radiance, and the best of those will be in Windrunners and Stonewards. Now not all of them will be able to do it, but it will be a significant amount. Catching a Shardblade midswing is stupid and only works when the person swinging it is an idiot and the person catching it is really really skilled. Coincidentally, that's just like this technique to overcome Atium. 32 minutes ago, Frustration said: And how many Mistborn exist in era 2? How much atium? 2 Mistborn, Kel and Marsh, possibly 3 if Spook's still around. And Marsh has Atium. And all of them would beat almost any Radiant alive in a fight, even if only using their Mistborn powers. If we do go eras 3-4, the Mistborn has practically infinite Atium because they can distill it from Harmonium: Quote Questioner If I were to alloy atium and lerasium, would I get harmonium? Or is harmonium different after the Shards combined? Brandon Sanderson It's different after the Shards combined. Questioner If I was to take harmonium and separate it out through distillation, would I get lerasium and atium or something that functions similarly? Brandon Sanderson No, you would-- It actually has become a different-- Questioner Can't be split? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. I mean, you could find a way, but you're not going to get it through normal, mechanical means. Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018) And you can likely distill Harmonium from the mists: Quote BlackYeti Because you've talked about alloying the god metals with other ones-- I was wondering whether you would be able to melt them down as you would with normal metals. Brandon Sanderson If you could distill the god metal: you could distill it out of the mist, that's theoretically possible. Manchester signing (Aug. 6, 2014) 32 minutes ago, Frustration said: All it takes is one pant wrapping its vines around them, and they lose a lot of mobility. And avoiding every seed tossed with a plate enhanced throw is going to be insanely hard because either you run and don't get the speed of steel, or you jump and lose the fine control needed to use Atium. A Mistborn can jump without losing fine control, if there's enough metal anchors around. 33 minutes ago, Frustration said: No, but I already gave them their "Give me" Well their "Give me" is way worse than the Radiants. Lasers and maybe even nukes plus tons of prep time compared to being able to use the metals that are commonly available and a some Atium? 36 minutes ago, Frustration said: Given that they couldn't figure out how to do that with copperclouds, which are far more mobile and they've had over a thousand years to do it, won't happen. Copperclouds are completely different and work on completely different principles. 37 minutes ago, Frustration said: Fused also have differnet uses for the surges than Radiants. But they're still the same surges. Soulcasting still works on the same basic principles, we see Raboniel use it.
Frustration Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, Nameless said: Aluminum is extremely quick. Not instant. Vin says instantly 3 minutes ago, Nameless said: Chromium burns stuff away at the same speed as aluminum. It's external aluminum, after all. So if Chromium isn't instant: Why is aluminum? Why would they be the same speed? Aluminum interacts oddly with all magic this would just be one more. 12 minutes ago, Nameless said: A Mistborn can easily push off of anchors with varying strength, giving them a fine control that's difficult for a Radiant to get. No they can't, Vin mentions several times that moderating pushes in increadibly difficult, even for her. 4 minutes ago, Nameless said: Wax isn't a Mistborn, so he physically can't use A-iron. If he could, then with all the practice he has he'd be as good as or better than Kelsier in TFE. Kaladin is the only windrunner we have seen try and stop a highstorm. 13 minutes ago, Nameless said: Yes, they are strong warriors. No one is contending that. However, they are not near the level of a herald. That idea is completely ludicrous. They don't have to be, and I'm not saying they are. I'm saying that Stonewards take after Taln, if they acheive even a tiny fraction of his skill then they will overcome atium. Radiants historically fought enemies that could see the future all the time, and they won. 5 minutes ago, Nameless said: Catching a Shardblade midswing is stupid and only works when the person swinging it is an idiot and the person catching it is really really skilled. Coincidentally, that's just like this technique to overcome Atium. So if it's the same conditions and it occurs often enough on Roshar they have a name for it, then obviously Rosharans and thus Radiants must be skilled enough to pull it off with some level of regularity. Add in selective and cultural pressures, along with constant competition with similarly skilled individuals and the Winrunners and Stonewards with the greatest skill will be able to overcome even a prepared Atium burner. 9 minutes ago, Nameless said: 2 Mistborn, Kel and Marsh, possibly 3 if Spook's still around. And Marsh has Atium. And all of them would beat almost any Radiant alive in a fight, even if only using their Mistborn powers. Only Spook is strictly mistborn and he's era 1. And Marsh doesn't even have the ability to burn all of the metals unless he decided to get new spikes. Marsh has some atium, but he's certainly not sharing. 15 minutes ago, Nameless said: A Mistborn can jump without losing fine control, if there's enough metal anchors around. Steelpushing isn't graceful, its a jerking shove that pushes the user away. When you can't get hit by any of the thousands of seeds being flung at you, and the countless vines growing from them, steelpushing is not a desireable way to flee. 20 minutes ago, Nameless said: Well their "Give me" is way worse than the Radiants. Lasers and maybe even nukes plus tons of prep time compared to being able to use the metals that are commonly available and a some Atium? How about existing? No Mistborn has been born since Harmony acsended. It won't be until era three that they start coming back, so why should Mistborn get something they won't have until era 3 but Roshar has to stay where it is right now? 22 minutes ago, Nameless said: Copperclouds are completely different and work on completely different principles. Yeah, ones that allow for them to move, something timebubbles don't get until savanthood. So it should be easier for them to be projected away from the user. 23 minutes ago, Nameless said: But they're still the same surges. Soulcasting still works on the same basic principles, we see Raboniel use it. We do not see her soulcast. The fused use them very differently, or do you have an explanation for why no Stoneward can walk through stone, or why no Elsecaller can teleport?
NameIess Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 1 minute ago, Frustration said: Vin says instantly Vin is not a scientist. It is extremely fast to the point of seeming instant, but isn't actually instant. 1 minute ago, Frustration said: Why would they be the same speed? Aluminum interacts oddly with all magic this would just be one more. Well, Wax lost his metals instantly. So Chromium's instant? 5 minutes ago, Frustration said: No they can't, Vin mentions several times that moderating pushes in increadibly difficult, even for her. Oh, right. I'm too used to Wax. Well, a Mistborn can still have fine control in the air, and it's not like the Edgedancer or Truthwatcher (I'm not convinced Truthwatchers can do the plan thing, btw) can do anything to them while they're up there. Neither order can fly. 8 minutes ago, Frustration said: Kaladin is the only windrunner we have seen try and stop a highstorm. Yeah. And what does that have to do with anything? We've seen that stuff like what Kelsier did is possible with enough practice. We've never seen another Windrunner pull Windspren to them like Kaladin does. 10 minutes ago, Frustration said: They don't have to be, and I'm not saying they are. I'm saying that Stonewards take after Taln, if they acheive even a tiny fraction of his skill then they will overcome atium. Radiants historically fought enemies that could see the future all the time, and they won. Historically, they fought enemies led by someone who could see the future, aided by someone who could see the future. Those are completely different things. And no, they can't overcome Atium. Overcoming Atium is practically impossible. Taln could do it, but the Radiants? No. Storming. Way. To bring it back to the Lastclap, how many Radiants can reliably pull it off against an opponent who swings their Blade with the proper amount of force? (Hint: The answer is none of them. Because if the opponent swings their Blade hard enough, you can't do a Lastclap.) 17 minutes ago, Frustration said: So if it's the same conditions and it occurs often enough on Roshar they have a name for it, then obviously Rosharans and thus Radiants must be skilled enough to pull it off with some level of regularity. Add in selective and cultural pressures, along with constant competition with similarly skilled individuals and the Winrunners and Stonewards with the greatest skill will be able to overcome even a prepared Atium burner. No they're not. Vasher straight up says that it's a stupid move that only works if the person who's swinging the sword is stupid. Rosharans probably just have names for stupid maneuvers like that cause Taln pulled it off after challenging three Shardbearers to a fight while unarmed. All this selective pressure stuff will make the average Radiant more skilled, but it will not make the average Radiant Kaladin, or Dalinar, or Adolin, or Szeth. We have seen Mistborn of similar skill levels to the top Radiants and fighters. Kelsier and Vin were both very skilled in their powers. Add on Atium, and they die. In fact, the only person whom we know for certain has the ability to counter Atium, Vin, would lose to Kelsier burning Atium: Quote Questioner Which of your characters do you think would win in a fight? Brandon Sanderson At what stage in their career? Questioner Not the Slivers. Brandon Sanderson Okay, so they don't count, the Shards of Adonalsium don't count… Does Kelsier have atium? Questioner Yes, atium exists. Brandon Sanderson A Mistborn burning atium is really hard to beat in any other way. Questioner So you think that Kelsier would beat Vin? Brandon Sanderson Oh, Kelsier would beat Vin if he had atium and she didn't. If they both did? Vin has more raw talent, Kelsier has a lot more experience. So if you can pick Vin after she's had more experience she will give him a fair fight, but before that she will not. Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014) So I really don't think Atium is as easy to overcome as you think it is. 25 minutes ago, Frustration said: Steelpushing isn't graceful, its a jerking shove that pushes the user away. When you can't get hit by any of the thousands of seeds being flung at you, and the countless vines growing from them, steelpushing is not a desireable way to flee. Wait, don't Edgedancers have touch the seeds to grow them? Even still, growing 'countless vines' would also take massive quantities of Stormlight. Also, with enough practice, you can have the fine control you need, especially if you have Atium. 27 minutes ago, Frustration said: How about existing? No Mistborn has been born since Harmony acsended. It won't be until era three that they start coming back, so why should Mistborn get something they won't have until era 3 but Roshar has to stay where it is right now? Fine. Mistborn gets practically infinite Atium from distilling, Radiant gets lasers. Not nukes though, as Cohesion hasn't been shown to be able to do that yet, and everything we've gotten so far has shown that it likely can't. (And if it can, then it can happen on accident, meaning that Radiant better be real careful how they use their surges) 28 minutes ago, Frustration said: Yeah, ones that allow for them to move, something timebubbles don't get until savanthood. So it should be easier for them to be projected away from the user. The maker of the time bubble can move around inside of it. Can't move around inside a coppercloud. 31 minutes ago, Frustration said: We do not see her soulcast. Yes we do. She gets stabbed, and soulcasts the spear as it hits her.
Frustration Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 5 minutes ago, Nameless said: Vin is not a scientist. It is extremely fast to the point of seeming instant, but isn't actually instant. And other than chromium not being instant do you have anything to back that up? 6 minutes ago, Nameless said: Oh, right. I'm too used to Wax. Well, a Mistborn can still have fine control in the air, and it's not like the Edgedancer or Truthwatcher (I'm not convinced Truthwatchers can do the plan thing, btw) can do anything to them while they're up there. Neither order can fly. What's the plan thing? And shardspears can get long enough to stab someone who can fly, or they can cover coins. And Mistborn really can't do anything to them either. 8 minutes ago, Nameless said: Yeah. And what does that have to do with anything? We've seen that stuff like what Kelsier did is possible with enough practice. We've never seen another Windrunner pull Windspren to them like Kaladin does. And other than Kaladin we have never had a PoV for a Windrunner at the same point in there story as Kaladin is in his when he pulls windspren to him. Windspren make up a Windrunners plate, so any Windrunner near or above the fourth ideal will have windspren. 9 minutes ago, Nameless said: Historically, they fought enemies led by someone who could see the future, aided by someone who could see the future. Those are completely different things. Nightform singers, Voidbinders, Unmade etc. 10 minutes ago, Nameless said: And no, they can't overcome Atium. Overcoming Atium is practically impossible. Obviously not as anyone who has the skill to either react to the atium burner, or is just physically better than them can do it. Shardplate makes the wearer much faster and stronger than pewter. If the Radiant is warform then the difference is even greater. Atium does not give speed, so anyone who moves faster than a Mistborn can basically ignore it. Geting inside a swordsmans guard is almost impossible, humans are just too slow to not get hit. If you look at anytime someone with a knife fights someone with a sword they rely heavily on their knife to block incoming strikes, because dodging them is next to impossible, and against a shardblade that won't work. Even with atium you can't get in because only an idiot wouldn't change the direction of their strike once it became obvious that it wouldn't connect. 18 minutes ago, Nameless said: Taln could do it, but the Radiants? No. Storming. Way. How did Vin do it then? How could Taln do it? He isn't faster than they are, and changing direction of a strike mid-swing is laughably easy. 19 minutes ago, Nameless said: To bring it back to the Lastclap, how many Radiants can reliably pull it off against an opponent who swings their Blade with the proper amount of force? (Hint: The answer is none of them. Because if the opponent swings their Blade hard enough, you can't do a Lastclap.) The answer is all of them, because they have plate, so force isn't an issue. 20 minutes ago, Nameless said: No they're not. Vasher straight up says that it's a stupid move that only works if the person who's swinging the sword is stupid. Rosharans probably just have names for stupid maneuvers like that cause Taln pulled it off after challenging three Shardbearers to a fight while unarmed. All this selective pressure stuff will make the average Radiant more skilled, but it will not make the average Radiant Kaladin, or Dalinar, or Adolin, or Szeth. We have seen Mistborn of similar skill levels to the top Radiants and fighters. Kelsier and Vin were both very skilled in their powers. Add on Atium, and they die. In fact, the only person whom we know for certain has the ability to counter Atium, Vin, would lose to Kelsier burning Atium: Kaladin, Dalinar, Adolin and Szeth weren't just magically born better that the rest of the world at fighting. Sure they might have some natural inclinations, but anyone who trained like they did would have near equivelent skill. 22 minutes ago, Nameless said: Wait, don't Edgedancers have touch the seeds to grow them? To start the process at the very least. 24 minutes ago, Nameless said: Even still, growing 'countless vines' would also take massive quantities of Stormlight. Well if we assume every sphere they use is a broam, and that each sphere can only be made into a 1 gram gem(both highly conservative estimates) then a radiant can multiply their stormlight carrying capacity by a factor of 2.5. Add in higher oaths greater efficency, and Singers not leaking light and the stormlight required becomes much less of a burden. 27 minutes ago, Nameless said: The maker of the time bubble can move around inside of it. Can't move around inside a coppercloud. Because it moves with you, just like time bubbles do when you reach savanthood. 28 minutes ago, Nameless said: Yes we do. She gets stabbed, and soulcasts the spear as it hits her. Huh, I missed that. However they do have aluminum, and in pretty significant quantities.
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 22 minutes ago, Frustration said: Vin says instantly 22 minutes ago, Frustration said: No they can't, Vin mentions several times that moderating pushes in increadibly difficult, even for her. Really anything you see a character "say" or "mention" being a limiting factor for anything cosmere related is totally meh. My favorite part of Sanderson's writings is that he does a great job at letting the characters be wrong... all the time it seems. I don't doubt moderating pushes is difficult but how infatuated was Vin when Zane showed that kind of control? Vin had a few flakes in her when she used aluminum. From what we have heard on duralumin a chain reaction starts that is near instant. I would bet all 4 of those metals work in a similar fashion meaning more metal more time. If duralumin burns one thing before something else and can be blocked via the consumption or wearing of far more metal than your opponent can leech / nicroburst then it is obvious there is nothing instant about it or else there would be no order in which you can say gold ingestion would divert stormlight. If on the other hand it was instant then it is a perfect argument for how to counter the soulcast aluminum as all you need is to instinctively burn it as it forms around you and you instantly rid yourself of that aluminum. Unless soulcasters have such finely adjusted use as to moderate and differentiate the air around a person from that which is constantly moving in and out of that same person. 25 minutes ago, Frustration said: Steelpushing isn't graceful, its a jerking shove that pushes the user away. When you can't get hit by any of the thousands of seeds being flung at you, and the countless vines growing from them, steelpushing is not a desireable way to flee. even if only a small % of the time a mistborn could escape that would not that same radiant have taken a heafty chunk out of their stormlight reserves? 53 minutes ago, Frustration said: They don't have to be, and I'm not saying they are. I'm saying that Stonewards take after Taln, if they acheive even a tiny fraction of his skill then they will overcome atium. Radiants historically fought enemies that could see the future all the time, and they won. I am still convinced the only reason Vin was able to get around atium was plot armor. I am sure plate does more for strength for radiants than pewter does for mistborn but pewter enhances all of the speed and reflexes of the mistborn. Pewter can allow you to run faster than a horse. Plus the usage of steel and iron combined with the cognitive speed from atium should make dancing around even the best stoneward pretty simple even in plate. This isnt me taking validity away from other arguments you have made. Future sight would fuzz up atium. All the atium and other metals dont matter if the ground is quicksand. Atium cant save you from getting stuck in a soulcast aluminum cube (although I think saying no assassinations allowed but letting a radiant hop into a different realm and then soulcast with infinite free actions is a bit odd). What I am disputing is the idea that any soldier without a shard watching their back can stand toe to toe with a mistborn with atium and survive just cause they have that 1337 level of fightor skillz. 26 minutes ago, Frustration said: Only Spook is strictly mistborn and he's era 1. And Marsh doesn't even have the ability to burn all of the metals unless he decided to get new spikes. Marsh has some atium, but he's certainly not sharing. This is another thing that is hard about the radiant v x argument. Scadrial has 3 systems to pull from. Roshar really only has the 1. A 5th ideal radiant with all surges vs TLR is really the only way to discuss a fair fight between systems as everyother argument comes down to what do we allow and what do we not. 26 minutes ago, Frustration said: How about existing? No Mistborn has been born since Harmony acsended. It won't be until era three that they start coming back, so why should Mistborn get something they won't have until era 3 but Roshar has to stay where it is right now? I feel like both of these can be touched on at once. Really the timeline is in favor of neither group for different reasons. Both will progress in power. The natural born abilities are on the decline on Scadrial but may make a comeback later on. In Scadrial the tech advancements are being driven by the fact that power is on the decline. The actual powerset on Roshar is on the up and up while the tech is largely driven by that powerset. Thus this allowance or disallowance of tech vs ability is really difficult as tech is being driven by 2 different causes / reasons. Scadrial is recovering from a near world ending event (in fact Ruins plan and goals, being total extinction of all life, were far worse for the progress of the civilization than what Odiums plans appear to be). Imagining the future of either group is really difficult. Scadrial is growing rapidly and Roshar is getting chopped to bits currently... in era 3 and 4 timelines this same issue could be totally flipflopped.
Frustration Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Really anything you see a character "say" or "mention" being a limiting factor for anything cosmere related is totally meh. My favorite part of Sanderson's writings is that he does a great job at letting the characters be wrong... all the time it seems. I don't doubt moderating pushes is difficult but how infatuated was Vin when Zane showed that kind of control? Zane also had a spike giving him greater ability. 4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: If on the other hand it was instant then it is a perfect argument for how to counter the soulcast aluminum as all you need is to instinctively burn it as it forms around you and you instantly rid yourself of that aluminum. Unless soulcasters have such finely adjusted use as to moderate and differentiate the air around a person from that which is constantly moving in and out of that same person. Even if they could burn the aluminum, which I highly doubt, it would only burn away the metal that was inside of them, leaving them to painful suffication as they run out of air. 5 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: even if only a small % of the time a mistborn could escape that would not that same radiant have taken a heafty chunk out of their stormlight reserves? As stated above stromlight is not an issue. 6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I am still convinced the only reason Vin was able to get around atium was plot armor. I am sure plate does more for strength for radiants than pewter does for mistborn but pewter enhances all of the speed and reflexes of the mistborn. Pewter can allow you to run faster than a horse. Anything other than healing that pewter gives, plate is better at. A person in plate would easily outrun pewter, and not only that but radiant plate has no time limit, but pewter burns increadibly quickly. 8 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Plus the usage of steel and iron combined with the cognitive speed from atium should make dancing around even the best stoneward pretty simple even in plate. Simply turning is far faster than even steeljumps around a seven foot radius. 9 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: What I am disputing is the idea that any soldier without a shard watching their back can stand toe to toe with a mistborn with atium and survive just cause they have that 1337 level of fightor skillz. I'm not saying any solider, but it is well within human potential. 10 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: This is another thing that is hard about the radiant v x argument. Scadrial has 3 systems to pull from. Roshar really only has the 1. A 5th ideal radiant with all surges vs TLR is really the only way to discuss a fair fight between systems as everyother argument comes down to what do we allow and what do we not. Roshar has at least 5(surgebinding, Voidbinding, Lifebinding, Fabrials, Nightwatcher) but only two that we've really explored.
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 Just now, Frustration said: Even if they could burn the aluminum, which I highly doubt, it would only burn away the metal that was inside of them, leaving them to painful suffication as they run out of air. The metal is all one piece thus instant would chain into the entire block of aluminum. Saying it doesn't simply shows and implies that even aluminum is not an instant burn. Which is in part why I made a claim that the aluminum would all be burnt... it is ridiculous and I admit it but then I also don't actually think any of the metals burn instantly showing that even preservations chosen warrior doesn't really know what's going on with her magic. 3 minutes ago, Frustration said: As stated above stromlight is not an issue. All resources on either side being unlimited is totally contrary to the entire purpose of economy limited magic systems. Saying resources don't run out should leave us with 2 systems systems totally at a wash. 6 minutes ago, Frustration said: Anything other than healing that pewter gives, plate is better at. A person in plate would easily outrun pewter, and not only that but radiant plate has no time limit, but pewter burns increadibly quickly. Resources aren't an issue. Until they are. 8 minutes ago, Frustration said: I'm not saying any solider, but it is well within human potential. So long as that human is in plate. 9 minutes ago, Frustration said: Roshar has at least 5(surgebinding, Voidbinding, Lifebinding, Fabrials, Nightwatcher) but only two that we've really explored. Knowing that we haven't explored many on Roshar this is a total side pitch here. Scadrial has the tools to combine all of their systems which is totally overlooked. Fabrials and Scadrial tech are equivalents. Guns made via homeboys brain and guns made via fabrial tech are a wash for future advancement. 30 minutes ago, Frustration said: How did Vin do it then? How could Taln do it? He isn't faster than they are, and changing direction of a strike mid-swing is laughably easy. I like this point but struggle with how well this would hold up in time. Time being the future. Is the future set in stone? This is a topic all on its own. I do believe there is a speed barrier that exists where you simply move faster than atium can show... the tip of a sword is ridiculously fast. But would that mistborn see the atium shadow of that sword changing faster than they can react. Can a radiant move faster than the god metal can show the mistborn that they need to react? In the end I do agree radiant vs mistborn isn't about who wins. It is about when does the mistborn start to lose and when does the radiant start to win. 1st and 2nd ideal is the mistborns game all day. 4th and 5th ideal the mistborn is mistdead. 3rd ideal is where I think all of the back and forth happen. This could have minor changes back and forth depending on order and era but I am certain the tides change with shards. Add in tech and fabrials and it all becomes a cremstorm.
NameIess Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, Frustration said: And other than chromium not being instant do you have anything to back that up? Do you think it makes sense for a Mistborn burning aluminum to be able to destroy as much metal as they can physically get in their body instantly? For a Sword swallower to be able to instantly metabolize an entire steel sword? Also, why are we arguing about this again? I forgot. 8 minutes ago, Frustration said: What's the plan thing? Plant thing. 9 minutes ago, Frustration said: And shardspears can get long enough to stab someone who can fly, or they can cover coins. And Mistborn really can't do anything to them either. Shardspears can't get longer than like 20 feet at most, and with Atium, they'll be easily to dodge. A Mistborn could chuck metal at them until the Radiant runs out of Stormlight. 10 minutes ago, Frustration said: And other than Kaladin we have never had a PoV for a Windrunner at the same point in there story as Kaladin is in his when he pulls windspren to him. Windspren make up a Windrunners plate, so any Windrunner near or above the fourth ideal will have windspren. Teft was 'close'. He managed to summon his Shardblade in the tower, something even Kaladin never pulled off. And he didn't get any windspren. We have to accept that Kaladin could be an outlier. 12 minutes ago, Frustration said: Nightform singers, Voidbinders, Unmade etc. Nightform singers we don't know enough about, but if they do have futuresight it's almost certainly like Renarin's or Rlain's, not Atium. Only one Unmade has futuresight, and it's not short-term based. Voidbringers is a group term that doesn't really apply to anything. So no, they've never fought anything like an Atium-burning Mistborn. 16 minutes ago, Frustration said: Obviously not as anyone who has the skill to either react to the atium burner, or is just physically better than them can do it. Shardplate makes the wearer much faster and stronger than pewter. If the Radiant is warform then the difference is even greater. Atium does not give speed, so anyone who moves faster than a Mistborn can basically ignore it. Geting inside a swordsmans guard is almost impossible, humans are just too slow to not get hit. Normal men can fight people in Plate. Kaladin fought Shardbearers with only Stormlight, which grants an inferior boost to Pewter, and he won twice. An Atium misting could have won against Kaladin like that. And you think that Plate would allow you to beat Atium? The metal so valuable that anyone burning it was considered invincible? The metal that allowed an army of like 200 ordinary soldiers to fight against an army of Koloss that outnumbered them literally a thousand to one, for hours? They only died when they ran out of Atium. And Koloss have almost 5 times the strength of an ordinary human, and are superior soldiers in every single way besides tactics. Being able to move slightly faster than a Mistborn doesn't make your Atium shadow magically split. They can see exactly what you're going to do before you do it, and they instinctually know how to use that information. A little speed doesn't help. A little skill doesn't help. you'd need to reach speeds that only a Steel ferring or compounder can reach in order to overcome Atium. Vin got incredibly lucky while Zane was literally just toying with her. You can't beat Atium that easily. 29 minutes ago, Frustration said: The answer is all of them, because they have plate, so force isn't an issue. A Lastclap isn't a maneuver you pull off in Plate. The point is that Vin's trick wouldn't have worked if her opponent was prepared for it. 32 minutes ago, Frustration said: Kaladin, Dalinar, Adolin and Szeth weren't just magically born better that the rest of the world at fighting. Sure they might have some natural inclinations, but anyone who trained like they did would have near equivelent skill. No they weren't. However, they are better than the rest of the world. Adolin's the best duelist in Alethkar. Kaladin's the best soldier in the entire storming Cosmere. Szeth's the assassin in white, with experience in all ten surges. Dalinar was to quote from the books 'never just another sword'. They are all the best of the best, and very very few people will ever become as skilled as they are. 34 minutes ago, Frustration said: To start the process at the very least. How many seeds can you fit in your hand? Seeds that grow into large vines, that is. And how much stormlight can you fit on your person? Because you best believe that covering everything in giant vines will use that all up. 36 minutes ago, Frustration said: Well if we assume every sphere they use is a broam, and that each sphere can only be made into a 1 gram gem(both highly conservative estimates) then a radiant can multiply their stormlight carrying capacity by a factor of 2.5. Add in higher oaths greater efficency, and Singers not leaking light and the stormlight required becomes much less of a burden. Right. But growing enough vines that there is literally nowhere for the Mistborn to dodge to is still going to take an absolutely insane amount of Stormlight. Like, perpendicularity levels of Stormlight. 38 minutes ago, Frustration said: Because it moves with you, just like time bubbles do when you reach savanthood. Yeah, I know. Where are you getting the Savancy allows time bubbles to move thing? I thought it would allow for distortion of the bubble, not full-on movement. Because if it allows for movement, then every Mistborn moves at superspeed. Eat like a pound of Cadmium and Bendalloy, make a small Cadmium bubble with a larger Bendalloy bubble outside it, burn duraluminum. Repeat until you're a savant. 41 minutes ago, Frustration said: Huh, I missed that. However they do have aluminum, and in pretty significant quantities. Yes, it's soulcast. However, they only give aluminum weapons to the fused. Even if Fused with the surge of Soulcasting make up ~5% of the Fused population, they'd only have to make 20 weapons each. Seems like they could do that really easily, especially if they can just soulcast big blocks of aluminum and allow others to smelt it into shape. So something about soulcasting aluminum must be difficult in some way.
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 8 minutes ago, Nameless said: Normal men can fight people in Plate. Kaladin fought Shardbearers with only Stormlight, which grants an inferior boost to Pewter, and he won twice. An Atium misting could have won against Kaladin like that. And you think that Plate would allow you to beat Atium? The metal so valuable that anyone burning it was considered invincible? The metal that allowed an army of like 200 ordinary soldiers to fight against an army of Koloss that outnumbered them literally a thousand to one, for hours? They only died when they ran out of Atium. And Koloss have almost 5 times the strength of an ordinary human, and are superior soldiers in every single way besides tactics. Being able to move slightly faster than a Mistborn doesn't make your Atium shadow magically split. They can see exactly what you're going to do before you do it, and they instinctually know how to use that information. A little speed doesn't help. A little skill doesn't help. you'd need to reach speeds that only a Steel ferring or compounder can reach in order to overcome Atium. Vin got incredibly lucky while Zane was literally just toying with her. You can't beat Atium that easily. I still believe Vin vs Zane was more preservation behind the scenes doing some vudu. If Ruin can exert his will to turn a sword into a hemalurgic spike for spook I imagine all of the shard can play a role and be blamed for other impossible feats. Same with Dalinar catching the 10000000 lb leg. We already saw powers that were impossible to explain before Dalinar even started to think about saying the words. 12 minutes ago, Nameless said: How many seeds can you fit in your hand? Seeds that grow into large vines, that is. And how much stormlight can you fit on your person? Because you best believe that covering everything in giant vines will use that all up. Given that I am in the process of saying good bye to my vine vegitables right now I imagine this is a well thought out argument. Seeds vary and it is rare for anything except gigantic trees to have such thick vines as to pose an issue to pewter and a steel push. Tree roots would be the better way to trap a person. Grab them with the roots... the vines are weak. But then the stormlight cost goes way up as anything with strong roots would need to be pretty large. Hollyhock roots growing all over me would be about the most terrifying nightmare out there. 17 minutes ago, Nameless said: Yeah, I know. Where are you getting the Savancy allows time bubbles to move thing? I thought it would allow for distortion of the bubble, not full-on movement. Because if it allows for movement, then every Mistborn moves at superspeed. Eat like a pound of Cadmium and Bendalloy, make a small Cadmium bubble with a larger Bendalloy bubble outside it, burn duraluminum. Repeat until you're a savant. How much stormlight do you imagine would be burned through if a mistborn just kept up both bubbles (cadmium being larger than bendalloy) and just hopped back and forth making the radiant experience the gut wrenching temporal shift side effects over and over again. To them the mistborn would likely look as though they are standing still meanwhile they are getting pounded by this horrible sensation... they can either fight through it or expend stormlight to end it... but it never stops because everytime they get past cadmium bubble and get hit with the sickness they are moving so slow the mistborn only needs to take a step back... Cant lie, the thought has me giggling.
Frustration Posted June 30, 2022 Posted June 30, 2022 38 minutes ago, Nameless said: Do you think it makes sense for a Mistborn burning aluminum to be able to destroy as much metal as they can physically get in their body instantly? For a Sword swallower to be able to instantly metabolize an entire steel sword? Yes. 38 minutes ago, Nameless said: Also, why are we arguing about this again? I forgot. Bro I have no idea. 38 minutes ago, Nameless said: Shardspears can't get longer than like 20 feet at most, and with Atium, they'll be easily to dodge. A Mistborn could chuck metal at them until the Radiant runs out of Stormlight. When suspended in the air there is only so far a Mistborn can move. And lurchers blocked coins with wooden sheilds, shardplate can compltely ignore them. 39 minutes ago, Nameless said: Teft was 'close'. He managed to summon his Shardblade in the tower, something even Kaladin never pulled off. And he didn't get any windspren. Fair enough but you yourself point out he was in the tower at the time. 41 minutes ago, Nameless said: We have to accept that Kaladin could be an outlier. And why is that? 41 minutes ago, Nameless said: Nightform singers we don't know enough about, but if they do have futuresight it's almost certainly like Renarin's or Rlain's, not Atium. They do Quote “Nightform predicting what will be, / The form of shadows, mind to foresee. / As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered. / A new storm will come, someday to break. / A new storm a new world to make. / A new storm a new path to take, the nightform listens. ” —17th stanza of the Song of Secrets[53] And how do you know it's not at least close to Atium? 43 minutes ago, Nameless said: Only one Unmade has futuresight, and it's not short-term based. Considering all Unmade can grant Voidbinding, and the only confirmed power of voidbinding is seeing the future I have to disagree 1 hour ago, Nameless said: Voidbringers is a group term that doesn't really apply to anything. So no, they've never fought anything like an Atium-burning Mistborn. I said Voidbinders. 1 hour ago, Nameless said: Normal men can fight people in Plate. Kaladin fought Shardbearers with only Stormlight, which grants an inferior boost to Pewter, and he won twice. An Atium misting could have won against Kaladin like that. And you think that Plate would allow you to beat Atium? Liveplate that lets you remove the only weakness? Yes. A man with living shards wins against a seer with an aluminum dagger. 1 hour ago, Nameless said: The metal so valuable that anyone burning it was considered invincible? The metal that allowed an army of like 200 ordinary soldiers to fight against an army of Koloss that outnumbered them literally a thousand to one, for hours? They only died when they ran out of Atium. And Koloss have almost 5 times the strength of an ordinary human, and are superior soldiers in every single way besides tactics. Being able to move slightly faster than a Mistborn doesn't make your Atium shadow magically split. They can see exactly what you're going to do before you do it, and they instinctually know how to use that information. A little speed doesn't help. A little skill doesn't help. you'd need to reach speeds that only a Steel ferring or compounder can reach in order to overcome Atium. Vin got incredibly lucky while Zane was literally just toying with her. You can't beat Atium that easily. Do you think atium will let you dodge bullets? 1 hour ago, Nameless said: The point is that Vin's trick wouldn't have worked if her opponent was prepared for it. Why not? Not much you can do when the shadows suddenly split. 1 hour ago, Nameless said: No they weren't. However, they are better than the rest of the world. Adolin's the best duelist in Alethkar. Kaladin's the best soldier in the entire storming Cosmere. Szeth's the assassin in white, with experience in all ten surges. Dalinar was to quote from the books 'never just another sword'. They are all the best of the best, and very very few people will ever become as skilled as they are. Well the individuals in Stoneward and Windrunner orders already are the kinds of people who would undergo the training neccesary to become that skilled. 1 hour ago, Nameless said: How many seeds can you fit in your hand? Seeds that grow into large vines, that is. From personal experience you only need a few seeds to cover a large amount of land. And depending on size you can hold hundreds of seeds. 1 hour ago, Nameless said: And how much stormlight can you fit on your person? Enough for interplanetary travel. 1 hour ago, Nameless said: Because you best believe that covering everything in giant vines will use that all up. I really don't think that is the case. 1 hour ago, Nameless said: Right. But growing enough vines that there is literally nowhere for the Mistborn to dodge to is still going to take an absolutely insane amount of Stormlight. Like, perpendicularity levels of Stormlight. Source? 1 hour ago, Nameless said: Yeah, I know. Where are you getting the Savancy allows time bubbles to move thing? I thought it would allow for distortion of the bubble, not full-on movement. Because if it allows for movement, then every Mistborn moves at superspeed. Eat like a pound of Cadmium and Bendalloy, make a small Cadmium bubble with a larger Bendalloy bubble outside it, burn duraluminum. Repeat until you're a savant. Right here Spoiler Questioner So my quick question: Can you use Identity (I love the speed bubbles!) to anchor speed bubbles to yourself? Brandon Sanderson Uh, this is possible. That's less a matter of Identity. What’s gonna happen there, like, the more someone uses the powers, the more familiar and intermingled with their soul the powers become, and they are able to accomplish things that others can't. This would be like a Mistborn learning to hover a coin, right, which they can do, but most think you can't. That's the sort of level we're going with. Necarion So a savant could? Brandon Sanderson A savant could totally do that. The problem is, things moving in and out of a speed bubble, there's a transference of energy. This is how we keep speed bubbles from irradiating people when light moves through them, right, red shift. And so there's a transfer of energy directly from the Spiritual Realm, which means that moving with a speed bubble, you're gonna run into that, and it's gonna be, it's gonna cause all kinds of problems, but it would be possible. Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016) Well that would make you a savant of multiple metals, savanting in just one metal has enough complications, I wouldn't consider worth it. 1 hour ago, Nameless said: Yes, it's soulcast. However, they only give aluminum weapons to the fused. Even if Fused with the surge of Soulcasting make up ~5% of the Fused population, they'd only have to make 20 weapons each. Seems like they could do that really easily, especially if they can just soulcast big blocks of aluminum and allow others to smelt it into shape. So something about soulcasting aluminum must be difficult in some way. I would say that equiping everyone with a weapon that is only better at fighting a handfull of individuals is a bit of a waste if you ask me.
NameIess Posted July 1, 2022 Posted July 1, 2022 25 minutes ago, Frustration said: When suspended in the air there is only so far a Mistborn can move. And lurchers blocked coins with wooden sheilds, shardplate can compltely ignore them. They have more than one coin on the ground I'm assuming. And why only coins? There can be bigger pieces of metal. 27 minutes ago, Frustration said: And why is that? Because he's been one. We've literally never seen any other Radiant summon Windspren like Kaladin. I doubt they're all going to be able to control thousands of windspren and stopping Highstorms. 29 minutes ago, Frustration said: And how do you know it's not at least close to Atium? Because they'd be the most dangerous kind of Regal on the battlefield. They'd mow through regular soldiers like a weedwacker. a couple hundred regular humans with Atium killed over thousands of Koloss. Nightforms would be so dangerous, it wouldn't even be funny. 31 minutes ago, Frustration said: Considering all Unmade can grant Voidbinding, and the only confirmed power of voidbinding is seeing the future I have to disagree Voidbinding's futuresight is not Atium. It's long term prophecy style futuresight. 32 minutes ago, Frustration said: Liveplate that lets you remove the only weakness? Yes. A man with living shards wins against a seer with an aluminum dagger. Dalinar won a fight against a Shardbearer with Shardplate. And he didn't stab him through the eyeslit. So it is possible. And you don't want an aluminum dagger when fighting a Shardbearer, you want an aluminum shield of some kind, a warhammer, and something to stab through the cracks you make. 37 minutes ago, Frustration said: Do you think atium will let you dodge bullets? Yes. Atium shadows leave a trail: Quote Questioner I’ve always wondered what Atium looks like when you’re burning it, do you have possible things coming out of you or do have one shadow just walking out or like an accordion of shadows? Brandon Sanderson I see one shadow that bursts out that leaves a trail, so like a really faint blur, and then the one shadow in the front, for each...and yeah, if you've got like two Atiums then it's a whole bunch of those, but I see one shadow with a blur of all the pieces and things behind it. Alloy of Law Los Angeles signing (Nov. 10, 2011) And you get a sensory boost to be able to process it all anyways, so that wouldn't even be needed. 44 minutes ago, Frustration said: Why not? Not much you can do when the shadows suddenly split. Because a smart Mistborn won't let you get that chance. After I've thought about it, Vin killing Zane like that is actually a huge plot hole. People change their actions based on an Atium burner's actions all the time, and it doesn't work. So why was Vin different? People try to dodge and block a Mistborn's attacks. If what Vin did split the shadow, so should any attempt to react to the Mistborn. But they don't, and Vin's does. 49 minutes ago, Frustration said: Well the individuals in Stoneward and Windrunner orders already are the kinds of people who would undergo the training neccesary to become that skilled. Yeah, and only a few of them will. One or two per order maybe. Not the average Windrunner/Stoneward. 50 minutes ago, Frustration said: Source? How much mass do you think the vines have? Because the Radiant has to convert Stormlight into that mass. 51 minutes ago, Frustration said: Enough for interplanetary travel. Right. So they're going to put a whole bunch of super valuable perfect gemstones in danger. 52 minutes ago, Frustration said: Source? How much stormlight would it take to soulcast all those vines? Because you're looking at similar amounts here. 53 minutes ago, Frustration said: Well that would make you a savant of multiple metals, savanting in just one metal has enough complications, I wouldn't consider worth it. Just Cadmium and Bendalloy. It's worth the superspeed. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: I would say that equiping everyone with a weapon that is only better at fighting a handfull of individuals is a bit of a waste if you ask me. You don't need to equip everyone, but we should at least see regals with aluminum weapons, similar to hazekillers.
Frustration Posted July 1, 2022 Posted July 1, 2022 6 minutes ago, Nameless said: And why only coins? There can be bigger pieces of metal. Because you have to carry them, and lugging a large piece of metal around doesn't seem very convienent. 8 minutes ago, Nameless said: Because he's been one. We've literally never seen any other Radiant summon Windspren like Kaladin. I doubt they're all going to be able to control thousands of windspren and stopping Highstorms. We've seen Shallan draw creationspren like he does, and Dalinar does the same with gloryspren. 8 minutes ago, Nameless said: Because they'd be the most dangerous kind of Regal on the battlefield. They'd mow through regular soldiers like a weedwacker. a couple hundred regular humans with Atium killed over thousands of Koloss. Nightforms would be so dangerous, it wouldn't even be funny. For SA that's one overpowered drop from the bucket. That won't top 72 foot stone monsters, people that can straight up teleport, summon lightning etc. And besides Koloss have the IQ of day old bread, so that doesn't mean much. A group of three competent alethi spearmen working together could easily take a seer down. 35 minutes ago, Nameless said: Dalinar won a fight against a Shardbearer with Shardplate. And he didn't stab him through the eyeslit. So it is possible. And you don't want an aluminum dagger when fighting a Shardbearer, you want an aluminum shield of some kind, a warhammer, and something to stab through the cracks you make. Dalinar had a shardblade and plate of his own. Or are you refering to his first time at the rift when he only fought someone with a blade when he had plate of his own? 48 minutes ago, Nameless said: Yes. Atium shadows leave a trail: Yes, but a Mistborn can't move faster than bullets. 48 minutes ago, Nameless said: Because a smart Mistborn won't let you get that chance. After I've thought about it, Vin killing Zane like that is actually a huge plot hole. People change their actions based on an Atium burner's actions all the time, and it doesn't work. So why was Vin different? People try to dodge and block a Mistborn's attacks. If what Vin did split the shadow, so should any attempt to react to the Mistborn. But they don't, and Vin's does. Because to paraphrase Brandon "She reacted to him reacting to the future" which is still really easy to do, and one of the many reasons I think Atium isn't that powerful. 50 minutes ago, Nameless said: Yeah, and only a few of them will. One or two per order maybe. Not the average Windrunner/Stoneward. It's not a once ever ability, everyone can do it if they know how. I can easily see anywhere from 5-20% of each order being able to do it at least some of the time 52 minutes ago, Nameless said: How much mass do you think the vines have? Because the Radiant has to convert Stormlight into that mass. Given that they can make stone buildings, entire city walls, and a lot more which are far more dense than vines, it's not that much stormlight. 53 minutes ago, Nameless said: Just Cadmium and Bendalloy. It's worth the superspeed. I mean, I suppose it's to each person to decide, but given how bad tin was, and it being one of the more "tame" Savant side effects I wouldn't risk it. 55 minutes ago, Nameless said: You don't need to equip everyone, but we should at least see regals with aluminum weapons, similar to hazekillers. We really don't see enough regals to say. Which is a real shame because they are awesome.
NameIess Posted July 1, 2022 Posted July 1, 2022 9 minutes ago, Frustration said: For SA that's one overpowered drop from the bucket. That won't top 72 foot stone monsters, people that can straight up teleport, summon lightning etc. And besides Koloss have the IQ of day old bread, so that doesn't mean much. A group of three competent alethi spearmen working together could easily take a seer down. 3 men? Are you storming KIDDING ME? 11 minutes ago, Frustration said: Yes, but a Mistborn can't move faster than bullets. They. Don't. Have. To. They have multiple seconds to move out of the way. I am done. If I continue to argue with you I will probably break my keyboard or get this thread locked.
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