Allomancer vs Knight Radiant

[Duxredux he/him]

Duh. I got confused with a WoB that accidentally contradicted that I think. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/377/#e12295, I looked at it again and the footnote links to a post on Reddit where Brandon retracts his statement.

Thanks!

[Letryx13]

6 hours ago, Nameless said:

Well, that works until you bring in aluminum weapons. And besides that, the Mistborn only needs like 20 minutes of Atium to win, not infinite.

Why do aluminum weapons matter? Stormlight probably wouldn't push the weapon out but would still keep the radiant alive and heal the wounds, wouldn't it?

[NameIess]

6 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Why do aluminum weapons matter? Stormlight probably wouldn't push the weapon out but would still keep the radiant alive and heal the wounds, wouldn't it?

Wounds from aluminum can't be healed while the aluminum's in the wound:

Quote

Kurkistan

What would happen if you shot a thug with an aluminum bullet or stabbed him with an aluminum knife?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, that's a good question. The wound would not be able to heal around the aluminum, but once the aluminum came out and was gone from the system, they would be okay.

Kurkistan

Wait, is that a Bloodmaker, not a Thug?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you're talking about Thugs?

It would work similarly, but it really wouldn't have a huge effect on them.

Kurkistan

Alright, because Peter was implying that there was some weird aluminum interaction with Thugs.

Brandon Sanderson

What was he thinking of...?

There is some weird interaction but...

Kurkistan

In the wedding scene, Wax thinks they would have aluminum bullets to deal with Thugs, and I was like, "Oh, that's a typo." And Peter was like, "Oh no it's not..."

Brandon Sanderson

No, no. That would just be-- it's like I said: healing it until the bullet is gone, it's just the same as Bloodmakers.

Footnote: Referring to AoL sample chapter commentary.
Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

 Stab a Radiant in the head, destroy a part of their brain, and they can't really function well. Kinda like Shallan in OB, when she got shot in the head. Stab them in the neck, and they're paralyzed.

[Rg2045]

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Wounds from aluminum can't be healed while the aluminum's in the wound:

 Stab a Radiant in the head, destroy a part of their brain, and they can't really function well. Kinda like Shallan in OB, when she got shot in the head. Stab them in the neck, and they're paralyzed.

If they can get to them. Bunch of if they can 

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Rg2045 said:

If they can get to them. Bunch of if they can 

Radiants aren't gods. They take hits. Especially against those who are faster and stronger than they are. Stormlight doesn't grant that much of a physical boost, Pewter doubles your strength and adds on dexterity to match.

[Letryx13]

6 hours ago, Nameless said:

Radiants aren't gods. They take hits. Especially against those who are faster and stronger than they are. Stormlight doesn't grant that much of a physical boost, Pewter doubles your strength and adds on dexterity to match.

The problem is that if we start taking into account unusual weapons/equipment that one side doesn't usually have, there's no end to this. I don't remember any Mistborn using aluminum daggers, only glass ones.  Yes, aluminum guns and bullets were used in Era 2, but it would be nearly impossible to use that against plate.  Point  blank shots through the eye slit, or super human accuracy are the only ways that's going to happen. And honestly, if the bullet passed through, I wonder whether or not that would be enough to put a radiant down. If it stayed in, that would do it, but its hard to say if that would happen.

Radiants with shard bows could likely pick off Mistborn from much further than the reverse with aluminum guns.  And if we assume the Mistborn are allowed to have aluminum blades, then we can't rule it out for Radiants either.  Its why I focused on abilities.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

The problem is that if we start taking into account unusual weapons/equipment that one side doesn't usually have, there's no end to this. I don't remember any Mistborn using aluminum daggers, only glass ones.  Yes, aluminum guns and bullets were used in Era 2, but it would be nearly impossible to use that against plate.  Point  blank shots through the eye slit, or super human accuracy are the only ways that's going to happen. And honestly, if the bullet passed through, I wonder whether or not that would be enough to put a radiant down. If it stayed in, that would do it, but its hard to say if that would happen.

Radiants with shard bows could likely pick off Mistborn from much further than the reverse with aluminum guns.  And if we assume the Mistborn are allowed to have aluminum blades, then we can't rule it out for Radiants either.  Its why I focused on abilities.

I feel like the unusual weapons and equipment that one side doesn't usually have access to is the entire point of the discussion.  Radiant vs mistborn is never a discussion about power vs power.  It is always that radiants have access to 1 shot weapon and indestructible plate that can cocoon them 100% and turn invisible.   

I have very rarely seen the argument for radiants in the 100s of pages worth of threads like this actually argue in favor of the radiants magic itself.  It is their equipment that the enemy doesn't have access to that makes the argument in favor of them.  So why would we disqualify discussion of Scadrial tech.  Guns and a wide knowledge of aluminums anti magic properties are what scadrial has in place of being a walking tank.  

As for shardbows vs guns.  I would say it all depends on the shardbow and the guns.  If there is metal on the arrow being shot from the shardbow it is unlikely to be an issue for a mistborn in reality.  With access to time bubles this becomes even more true. Mistborn have a ton of tools for dealing with ranged attacks if metals are involved and they have a decent amount still yet if aluminum is involved.  Electrum could show them at the very least all the bad choices for where to stand.  

As for radiants needing aluminum blades... why??  Shardblades are unaffected by pushes and pulls and are offensively far more powerful anyways with plenty of 1 shot potential.   Its a wash on that one.  Use aluminum blades for radiants.  Aluminum arrowheads can be permissible too... the mistborn still has a good stretch of defensive options against that. 

But again.  Why would a radiant choose aluminum when shards exist?   They do literally anything aluminum can do but better when discussing the mistborn vs radiant battle.   

We haven't gone so far into the depths as to make assumptions like "mistborn killed non radiant shardbearer weeks ago and has a set of dead plate and a dead blade to fight in as well".  

If it came down to scadrial invading roshar I have little doubt that the scad invaders would quickly aquire dead shards.   A mistborn turned shardbearer would be terrifying.  And if a mistborn exists on roshar it would only be a short matter of time before they got some shards... I am sure the couple mistborn currently on roshar have already done so.  

[Letryx13]

26 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I feel like the unusual weapons and equipment that one side doesn't usually have access to is the entire point of the discussion.  Radiant vs mistborn is never a discussion about power vs power.  It is always that radiants have access to 1 shot weapon and indestructible plate that can cocoon them 100% and turn invisible.   

I have very rarely seen the argument for radiants in the 100s of pages worth of threads like this actually argue in favor of the radiants magic itself.  It is their equipment that the enemy doesn't have access to that makes the argument in favor of them.  So why would we disqualify discussion of Scadrial tech.  Guns and a wide knowledge of aluminums anti magic properties are what scadrial has in place of being a walking tank.  

As for shardbows vs guns.  I would say it all depends on the shardbow and the guns.  If there is metal on the arrow being shot from the shardbow it is unlikely to be an issue for a mistborn in reality.  With access to time bubles this becomes even more true. Mistborn have a ton of tools for dealing with ranged attacks if metals are involved and they have a decent amount still yet if aluminum is involved.  Electrum could show them at the very least all the bad choices for where to stand.  

As for radiants needing aluminum blades... why??  Shardblades are unaffected by pushes and pulls and are offensively far more powerful anyways with plenty of 1 shot potential.   Its a wash on that one.  Use aluminum blades for radiants.  Aluminum arrowheads can be permissible too... the mistborn still has a good stretch of defensive options against that. 

But again.  Why would a radiant choose aluminum when shards exist?   They do literally anything aluminum can do but better when discussing the mistborn vs radiant battle.   

We haven't gone so far into the depths as to make assumptions like "mistborn killed non radiant shardbearer weeks ago and has a set of dead plate and a dead blade to fight in as well".  

If it came down to scadrial invading roshar I have little doubt that the scad invaders would quickly aquire dead shards.   A mistborn turned shardbearer would be terrifying.  And if a mistborn exists on roshar it would only be a short matter of time before they got some shards... I am sure the couple mistborn currently on roshar have already done so.  

Actually, I consider the Radiant's ability to heal automatically to such an extent to be their most formidable ability.  Armor is all well and good, but it can be broken with enough force, and blades are only useful at close range, which any archer could overcome.  But to be able to survive any wound short of decapitation, which is about where I draw the line for what a Radiant could recover from, and you've got someone who's nearly unstoppable.  Such as Miles Hundredlives, who is admittedly even harder to stop. 

And as far as blades and plate are concerned, those are directly related to their powers, created by bonding spren, with the plate even feeding off of the Radiant's stormlight.  So I don't consider them unconventional or external equipment. If we want to compare Mistborn abilities and Radiant abilities directly, we need to determine how their powers would work against each other straight up, or with the normal equipment they would employ. 

You mentioned why Radiants would use aluminum blades and why a Radiant would choose aluminum when shards exist.  Outside of this exact matchup, why would MistBorn use aluminum blades instead of the glass ones that Vin used?  With regard to shardbows, there's no way to tell what kind of arrowhead they use, but if MistBorn know enough to use aluminum daggers, then stone headed arrowheads are just as likely.  Even without them, there's still an issue of physics.  The Mistborn would weigh more than the spear-like arrow fired, but without duralumin, they're aren't going to stop something fired with that much force. And duralumin would use up all their currently burning metals, forcing them to consume more, creating an opening. They could probably divert the arrow with just steel, but that's still likely to require flaring the steel, which would use it up quickly.

Electrum probably would be useful as a defense, but is likely difficult to use in a fight.  Which raises another issue.  One disadvantage that hasn't been discussed much is balancing all these different abilities.  Radiant's powers can be versatile, but handling electrum, tin, pewter, iron/steel, and possibly zinc, brass, copper, and bronze all at the same time would take a lot more focus and would be more taxing mentally, and more likely to result in a mistake. Yes, so many different skills makes them extremely difficult to counter, which is why I think MistBorn would stand a fair chance against Radiants, but seriously, how many video game players make mistake because they press the wrong buttons?

And everything so far is something that any Radiant of nine orders are capable of.  Not touching BondSmiths, since they're in a league of their own. But gravitation can match or even surpass steel pushing and iron pulling.  Abrasion would help avoid bullets or pushed coins.  StoneWards could melt the ground under them and lock their feet in place, like Amaram did to Kaladin, neutralizing any evasion tactics, or forcing a MistBorn to stay in the air the entire time.  Transformation can create pits underneath people or turn air to pitch, and then ignite it; useful against ground or air attacks. Illumination as a distraction probably wouldn't help, with bronze likely countering it, but that's another metal they'd have to juggle.  And who knows how division could be applied.  At close range it would melt any weapon other than aluminum, I assume. But I don't want to include the specific Radiant surges in the calculation, since there are different kinds of Radiants. So it's mostly about blades, plate, recovery, enhanced reflexes, and stamina.

 

[therunner he/him]

56 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I feel like the unusual weapons and equipment that one side doesn't usually have access to is the entire point of the discussion.  Radiant vs mistborn is never a discussion about power vs power.  It is always that radiants have access to 1 shot weapon and indestructible plate that can cocoon them 100% and turn invisible.   

I have very rarely seen the argument for radiants in the 100s of pages worth of threads like this actually argue in favor of the radiants magic itself.  It is their equipment that the enemy doesn't have access to that makes the argument in favor of them.  So why would we disqualify discussion of Scadrial tech.  Guns and a wide knowledge of aluminums anti magic properties are what scadrial has in place of being a walking tank. 

I would say that is because (as far as we know) both Blade and Plate are inherent parts of the Knights Radiant magic system. You cannot be a Radiant of 4th oath without those two tools, and they are a function of their magic system, not external to it (like guns or daggers). Conversely, there was never a Mistborn alive at the same time as guns existing (as far as we know), and existence of guns or other Tech (which typically uses Feruchemy) has nothing to do with Allomancers (as is the name of the thread).

In the mighty 70+ pages thread there were also discussion on surges and their applications, but ultimately the discussion of higher Oath Radiants vs Mistborn always end up at the simple fact that Blade and Plate are quite strong on their own, giving overwhelming offense in close-quarters and (for the time being) unparalleled defense, especially when coupled with Stormlight healing.  If we start including guns and other non-inherent things, we can start including Fabrials, such as those that block Invested arts, or attract given essences to mess with/remove metals.

If we look at Surges, we are suddenly dealing with 10 questions instead of one, as fighting styles of different orders would be quite different:
 

1. Windrunners: Have superior mobility to Mistborn thanks to Gravitation, so they can stay further away if need be, or do strafing attack. Additionally they can use Adhesion to immobilize Mistborn, or use Reverse Lashing to defend against long-range weaponry (aluminum notwithstanding). Lashings can also be used for long range attacks. These abilities are at least partially independent on Oath level.
2. Skybreakers: Gravitation gives them similar mobility to Windrunners + same long range option. Division in addition to that allows them most likely to create effectively bombs + gives them good melee option in addition to Shardblade.
3. Elsecallers: Soulcasting allows them to attack from distance, and they can soulcast even people (see Jasnah when still on at most 3rd Oath), and Mistborn are Invested only when actively burning. This gives them good option to either immobilize or fully kill people, and they can do that from Cognitive realm, where Mistborn cannot touch them. Additionally it lets them remove anchors, but not sure if that is good usage of it.
4. LIghtweavers: Soulcasting could be used similarly to Elsecallers, however they most likely can do it only at melee range (I think the long-distance Soulcasting is only possible for Elsecallers). Additionally they could use Illusions to confuse Mistborn (but Bronze could potentially detect them, however that could depend on strength of the Mistborn as Lightweaving is not very 'loud' per Oathbringer), or use them offensively to blind Mistborn. Eventually, lasers.
5. Edgedancers: Abrasion allows them for increased mobility on the ground + allows them to evade grappling by Mistborn, which could serve as defense against Chromium (depending on how leeching and active surge would work). Additionally, it could be used to interfere with anchors to hinder Mistborn mobility. Progressions makes them even harder to kill then other Orders.
6. Dustbringers: Can use Abrasion to again move around (not sure if as well as Edgedancers) + Division for better offensive option. (here we know relatively little)
7. Truthwatchers: We know little of regular orders, but their abilities Lightweaving + Progression suit them more towards indirect methods of attack and would supplement their main offensive option, Shardblade.
8. Willshapers: Terrain manipulation via Cohesion + Elsecalling to evade Mistborn, again, we have seen very little of them so far.
9. Stonewards: We have seen nothing of them, but their surges (and name) hint at ability to strengthen regular materials and manipulate them, so even their regular clothing could serve as armor to some extent, giving them better defense at lower Oaths, but that is speculative.
10. Bondsmiths: If unchained Bondsmith touches Mistborn, they most likely win, but their powers are so nebulous it makes it difficult to judge exactly + there seems to be variance even within this order.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

We haven't gone so far into the depths as to make assumptions like "mistborn killed non radiant shardbearer weeks ago and has a set of dead plate and a dead blade to fight in as well".  

If it came down to scadrial invading roshar I have little doubt that the scad invaders would quickly aquire dead shards.   A mistborn turned shardbearer would be terrifying.  And if a mistborn exists on roshar it would only be a short matter of time before they got some shards... I am sure the couple mistborn currently on roshar have already done so.  

Then why not consider Radiant with gun with aluminum bullets? Killing Allomancer is far easier than killing Radint or even Shardbearer, since they have no healing abilities.
However, this is going out of the scope of the thread (in my opinion), and I already did this for 70+ pages so I will stop here

[cometaryorbit]

Radiants are imo in general more powerful in each specific ability, and potentially vastly more powerful. Gravitation flight is better than Iron/Steel flight, for example; Jasnah's ranged Soulcasting is crazy; Stormlight healing is really awesome; Plate is incredible.

So in general Radiants would beat Mistborn in at least a direct physical fight. (Mistborn abilities are generally broader, with all the cognitive/mental stuff - Soothing/Rioting emotions, emotional protection through copper, detection through bronze - and sensory boost from tin, whereas say Kaladin or Szeth have purely physical abilities.)

However, there is one asterisk there: atium. I'd argue that most Mistborn pre fall of the Lord Ruler had at least some access to it since they were mostly tied into the Noble House system and its atium economy. In general I'd expect Stormlight healing to be able to outlast 30 seconds or so of atium guided stabs, but that may depend: Shallan survived a crossbow bolt to the head but I think she'd have been in trouble if she couldn't have gotten out of danger to remove it.

Not sure if Plate would help or not - atium would probably make stabs go perfectly through the gaps, but living Plate might be able to close all gaps?

So even there the Radiant is probably OK, but atium is definitely a consideration.

But... I think Mistborn advance faster and easier. Not all Radiants ever get to the higher Ideals and Plate; the Skybreakers don't even get their second Surge until 3rd ideal. Mistborn get all their powers upon Snapping and (even excluding Vin's super intuitive knack for Allomancy) Allomancers seem to learn quickly. So I'd say a new Mistborn likely beats a new Radiant.

 

EDIT: however, some Twinborn might be better, since they'd have access to Era 2 weapons: Shallan had enough trouble with that crossbow bolt that heavier Era 2 guns might work against pre-Plate Radiants (and not all Radiants ever get Plate, maybe not even the majority). Miles Hundredlives with a heavy gun might run a 3rd ideal Radiant out of Stormlight before the Radiant used up his healing.

Edited June 28, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[NameIess]

53 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Actually, I consider the Radiant's ability to heal automatically to such an extent to be their most formidable ability.  Armor is all well and good, but it can be broken with enough force, and blades are only useful at close range, which any archer could overcome.  But to be able to survive any wound short of decapitation, which is about where I draw the line for what a Radiant could recover from, and you've got someone who's nearly unstoppable.  Such as Miles Hundredlives, who is admittedly even harder to stop. 

Radiant Plate heals, actually, so breaking that will eventually get rid of all their stormlight, leaving them unable to heal once it's gone.

55 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

And as far as blades and plate are concerned, those are directly related to their powers, created by bonding spren, with the plate even feeding off of the Radiant's stormlight.  So I don't consider them unconventional or external equipment. If we want to compare Mistborn abilities and Radiant abilities directly, we need to determine how their powers would work against each other straight up, or with the normal equipment they would employ. 

You mentioned why Radiants would use aluminum blades and why a Radiant would choose aluminum when shards exist.  Outside of this exact matchup, why would MistBorn use aluminum blades instead of the glass ones that Vin used?  With regard to shardbows, there's no way to tell what kind of arrowhead they use, but if MistBorn know enough to use aluminum daggers, then stone headed arrowheads are just as likely.  Even without them, there's still an issue of physics.  The Mistborn would weigh more than the spear-like arrow fired, but without duralumin, they're aren't going to stop something fired with that much force. And duralumin would use up all their currently burning metals, forcing them to consume more, creating an opening. They could probably divert the arrow with just steel, but that's still likely to require flaring the steel, which would use it up quickly.

Yes, normal equipment. If you were a Mistborn anytime from era 2 and beyond, which would you rather pick: the brittle glass daggers that will instantly shatter the moment any real weapon hits them, or aluminum-coated steel daggers (or maybe an alloy of some sort that maximizes durability) that are just as immune to allomancy, but are much more durable. A Radiant would never use stone arrowheads, as it wouldn't affect the Fused's powers. They might use aluminum, but we haven't seen any Radiants that use bows before, only heard of the possibility. And I doubt diverting arrows would require flaring steel, and even if it did, steel burns rather slowly and most Mistborn carry tons of it, so that's not an issue.

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

Electrum probably would be useful as a defense, but is likely difficult to use in a fight.  Which raises another issue.  One disadvantage that hasn't been discussed much is balancing all these different abilities.  Radiant's powers can be versatile, but handling electrum, tin, pewter, iron/steel, and possibly zinc, brass, copper, and bronze all at the same time would take a lot more focus and would be more taxing mentally, and more likely to result in a mistake. Yes, so many different skills makes them extremely difficult to counter, which is why I think MistBorn would stand a fair chance against Radiants, but seriously, how many video game players make mistake because they press the wrong buttons?

I don't know if electrum would actually be useful in a fight. It'd probably be better not to let it distract you and just try to react normally. I doubt a Mistborn's going to be soothing or rioting a Radiant, especially when their Plate is on. Bronze would only really be necessary against Lightweavers or Truthwatchers, perhaps Elsecallers. It's pretty easy just to let copper burn, no need to do anything fancy with it. That leaves the four physical metals, iron/steel and pewter/tin, along with chromium if the Radiant doesn't have Plate, and duraluminum if needed. Incidentally, the physical metals are the ones that Mistborn practice the most in. So yeah, they might make a mistake, but it's not like they're managing all sixteen metals at once.

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

And everything so far is something that any Radiant of nine orders are capable of.  Not touching BondSmiths, since they're in a league of their own. But gravitation can match or even surpass steel pushing and iron pulling.  Abrasion would help avoid bullets or pushed coins.  StoneWards could melt the ground under them and lock their feet in place, like Amaram did to Kaladin, neutralizing any evasion tactics, or forcing a MistBorn to stay in the air the entire time.  Transformation can create pits underneath people or turn air to pitch, and then ignite it; useful against ground or air attacks. Illumination as a distraction probably wouldn't help, with bronze likely countering it, but that's another metal they'd have to juggle.  And who knows how division could be applied.  At close range it would melt any weapon other than aluminum, I assume. But I don't want to include the specific Radiant surges in the calculation, since there are different kinds of Radiants. So it's mostly about blades, plate, recovery, enhanced reflexes, and stamina.

Any Radiant without Gravitation has to have an answer to big metal objects coming at them from all directions while the Mistborn flies in circles around them. Abrasion might help, but Radiants use Stormlight faster than Mistborn use metal, and if they're in a location with tons of metal everywhere, even that added speed won't be enough to avoid everything.

Here's my stance: Radiants below the third ideal stand little chance against a Mistborn. They're slower and weaker, and as soon as the Mistborn touches them, they're powerless. Third ideal, they have a Shardblade, meaning the Mistborn will struggle more to reach them, but again, once a Mistborn touches them, they're powerless unless they have more spheres. If they dismiss their Blade while the Mistborn is touching them, then they're totally screwed, because now they're weaponless and powerless in a close-quarters fight with a Pewter-enhanced assassin wielding daggers.

Fourth ideal is where things get more interesting. I'd say a Mistborn's best option is to fly around the Radiant hitting them with tons of metal, similar to how Kelsier fought the inquisitor in TFE. If they're in a favorable environment such as a city at night, with the mists out, I'd give the advantage to the Mistborn, actually. They can stay hidden, strike from the shadows, and there's plenty of metal to push around. Perfect for slowly wearing the Radiant out of Stormlight and killing them. On a more favorable location for the Radiant like a battlefield, a Mistborn would still have plenty of metal to throw around, but they'd find staying away from the Radiant a lot harder. If a Mistborn gets forced into close combat with a fourth ideal Radiant, they will almost certainly die unless they have Atium. With enough Atium to get rid of the Radiant's Plate, the Mistborn will be able to win. Otherwise they'll die.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Then why not consider Radiant with gun with aluminum bullets? Killing Allomancer is far easier than killing Radint or even Shardbearer, since they have no healing abilities.

Roshar does not have access to guns. Scadrial does. If we give a Mistborn all 16 metals, why not give them guns too? It's pretty realistic that they'd have access to them.

[Duxredux he/him]

I'll toss this in here, Gravitation isn't strictly better than Iron and Steel. It can go faster, and doesn't have to rely on anchors, but I think a skilled Mistborn may be able to change directions faster. It's kind of the distinction between a cheetah and a gazelle, one has a higher top speed, the other has good turning and maneuverability. A Windrunner or a Skybreaker will be able to outpace a Mistborn (short of insane Duralumin stunts) and can flee very easily when low on Stormlight so the advantage is still theirs, but it's not just a flat trump.

I think I'd give fairly good odds to Wax taking down some of the 3rd or 4th Ideal Radiants if he had all of the weaponry he usually carries around. That hand cannon that Ranette made for him could probably do some heavy damage to Plate, particularly if he pushed on the slug with increased weight. He's fought healers, shape shifters, and even came up with a viable strategy against a Steelrunner (though he needed Wayne for that). He's fast, maneuverable, has stunts that he can do with weight that are hard to predict, and has accurate, ranged weaponry. Also, Wax is good evidence that you can do plenty do distract a healer and Radiants still feel pain. Getting plugged in the face repeatedly cannot be good for concentration. He'd probably have trouble with Gravitation, Elsecallers, and maybe Stonewards though.

On the Radiant side, one of the Radiant strategies that we see rarely but seems way more powerful than most usages of living Blades is (Dawnshard spoiler)

Spoiler

Huio's strategy of repeatedly throwing his Shardspear and resummoning it. Frankly, that seems way more dangerous than a Shardbow firing huge but normal arrows, particularly if you are throwing while using Plate. Giant spear that can cut through anything, walls, buildings, you, coming at you over and over is really dangerous and scary. That's a fantastic deterrent that will make enemies want to keep their head down. I don't see why any 3rd Oath Radiant couldn't do this, it doesn't take any Stormlight, and it removes a major reach disadvantage. This I think could give a Mistborn or Wax some serious trouble, particularly if they can't end the fight quickly.

 

[cometaryorbit]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

I would say that is because (as far as we know) both Blade and Plate are inherent parts of the Knights Radiant magic system. You cannot be a Radiant of 4th oath without those two tools

While I completely agree with your general point that Blade/Plate are generally part of being a Radiant, not sure this is 100% true.

Not all Orders seem to advance the same (Skybreakers don't get their 2nd Surge until 3rd ideal). And Dalinar is 3rd ideal with no Blade; not sure if that is the Stormfather's restriction or the general case for Bondsmiths.

So I don't think we can necessarily say that "3rd ideal = Blade, 4th = Plate" is universally true.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Here's my stance: Radiants below the third ideal stand little chance against a Mistborn. They're slower and weaker, and as soon as the Mistborn touches them, they're powerless. Third ideal, they have a Shardblade, meaning the Mistborn will struggle more to reach them, but again, once a Mistborn touches them, they're powerless unless they have more spheres.

1st and 2nd: Yeah, Radiants advance slower than Mistborn. Even excluding Vin's intuition for Allomancy, well, Kelsier's about at the peak of possible non-savant skill in Iron/Steel after being a Mistborn just 2 years. Radiants often never hit 4th ideal. I think Kelsier in "The Eleventh Metal" (3 months in) would generally beat a (proto-)Radiant 3 months into their Nahel bond.

3rd: I'm skeptical of Leeching (which requires touch* and isn't really that instant vs high Investiture) being all that viable against someone with a live Shardblade. And a Radiant will probably have some spheres on them.

Much better would be to stay out of range. One of the Orders without Gravitation or a good ranged attack option could just be run out of Stormlight by coins eventually (iron and steel last fairly long) - depending on the conditions of the fight, does the Mistborn have space, anchors, and time to fight for a half hour or more?

*now, with Era 2 primer cubes, that changes: but Mistborn didn't have that tech.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

 If we give a Mistborn all 16 metals, why not give them guns too? It's pretty realistic that they'd have access to them.

That's why I left out Chromium as an option for the Mistborn, it wasn't really available to Mistborn except possibly Spook and reborn-Kelsier.

(I was going to say those two are also probably the only Mistborn to ever coexist with guns, but actually, the original Mistborn also did - we know TLR suppressed knowledge of guns/gunpowder so at the beginning of his conquests they existed.)

28 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

I think I'd give fairly good odds to Wax taking down some of the 3rd or 4th Ideal Radiants if he had all of the weaponry he usually carries around.

 

I can see that, certainly for the 3rd ideal non-flying ones. His powerful bullets + steelpush boost would require a lot of Stormlight to heal, and steeljumping plus lightened weight could keep him out of Shardblade range fairly easily.

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

3rd: I'm skeptical of Leeching (which requires touch* and isn't really that instant vs high Investiture) being all that viable against someone with a live Shardblade. And a Radiant will probably have some spheres on them.

Every time we've seen leeching or something similar, it's taken a few seconds at most. The only exception to this is the Fused's weapons, which are working off of a pressure differential, not leeching.

[cometaryorbit]

15 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Every time we've seen leeching or something similar, it's taken a few seconds at most. The only exception to this is the Fused's weapons, which are working off of a pressure differential, not leeching.

True, but a few seconds is a long time if you are at arms length of someone with a Shardblade.

And Rosharan things are high Investiture compared to Scadrian, so it might be at the upper end of that time range. Still seconds, but long enough to use a Shardblade - especially a live Blade.

[Letryx13]

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

Radiant Plate heals, actually, so breaking that will eventually get rid of all their stormlight, leaving them unable to heal once it's gone.

I know living plate heals, but if they're attacking through the eye slit, the only weak spot, then they're likely to injure the radiant.

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

Yes, normal equipment. If you were a Mistborn anytime from era 2 and beyond, which would you rather pick: the brittle glass daggers that will instantly shatter the moment any real weapon hits them, or aluminum-coated steel daggers (or maybe an alloy of some sort that maximizes durability) that are just as immune to allomancy, but are much more durable. A Radiant would never use stone arrowheads, as it wouldn't affect the Fused's powers. They might use aluminum, but we haven't seen any Radiants that use bows before, only heard of the possibility. And I doubt diverting arrows would require flaring steel, and even if it did, steel burns rather slowly and most Mistborn carry tons of it, so that's not an issue.

When have we ever seen a MistBorn using an aluminum dagger? Aluminum guns and bullets make sense, but you'd still need to fire point blank to get through the eye slit, or have Waxilium's level of skill. And if the bullet passed through an unarmored Radiant, they'd probably recover. I think it would have to stay lodged in them to kill them.  I only use the shardbow as an example against the idea of unvoncentional equipment.  It doesn't make sense to consider them using equipment they don't typically use. Although, depending on how the force is considered when steel pushing, if the force the arrow exerts is what the push is against, then perhaps the MistBorn would be the one that moved. Is there a WoB on this?

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

I don't know if electrum would actually be useful in a fight. It'd probably be better not to let it distract you and just try to react normally. I doubt a Mistborn's going to be soothing or rioting a Radiant, especially when their Plate is on. Bronze would only really be necessary against Lightweavers or Truthwatchers, perhaps Elsecallers. It's pretty easy just to let copper burn, no need to do anything fancy with it. That leaves the four physical metals, iron/steel and pewter/tin, along with chromium if the Radiant doesn't have Plate, and duraluminum if needed. Incidentally, the physical metals are the ones that Mistborn practice the most in. So yeah, they might make a mistake, but it's not like they're managing all sixteen metals at once.

A WoB confirms that electrum can be used to achieve more than what Vin and Elend did with it.  Do we know if plate protects against emotional allomancy? If it doesn't, then I'd consider it one of the most effective ways to beat a radiant, considering the mental state of some of them.  That's still at least a half dozen different metals at once, taking care of which metals to burn in combination with duralumin. Make a mistake on that one, and the entire reserve is gone, creating an opening. 

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

Any Radiant without Gravitation has to have an answer to big metal objects coming at them from all directions while the Mistborn flies in circles around them. Abrasion might help, but Radiants use Stormlight faster than Mistborn use metal, and if they're in a location with tons of metal everywhere, even that added speed won't be enough to avoid everything.

Stormlight greatly enhances reflexes, as Kaladin proved on his first ideal, let alone the second. Large metal objects aren't likely to be used as projectiles, too easy to see and avoid. Screws, nails, or coins make more sense.  As for the surges, gravitation could evade the metal or even fire them back at the MistBorn. Transformation could turn the metal into wood from a distance.  Abrasion can aid in dodging or having the metal slide off them in the case of glancing hits. Abrasion/cohesion could create stone walls for shields (I think it's the combination of the two that lets StoneWards do things like that). And division could melt the metal or more.  A lot of this depends on the environment, unfortunately. It's hard to figure out what a completely even setting would be. An open setting with lots of metal favors the mistborn, but a more closed one or one without lots of metal favors the radiant. 

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

Here's my stance: Radiants below the third ideal stand little chance against a Mistborn. They're slower and weaker, and as soon as the Mistborn touches them, they're powerless. Third ideal, they have a Shardblade, meaning the Mistborn will struggle more to reach them, but again, once a Mistborn touches them, they're powerless unless they have more spheres. If they dismiss their Blade while the Mistborn is touching them, then they're totally screwed, because now they're weaponless and powerless in a close-quarters fight with a Pewter-enhanced assassin wielding daggers.

Again, stormlight increases stamina and reflexes significantly.  Leeching is the main allomantic skill to use against a Radiant.  But they'd need to get close enough to the Radiant to leech them, which puts them in range of the Radiant's powers as much as the Radiant is in range of the MistBorn's.  And with an extra set of eyes keeping watch, sneeking up is going to be tricky.  And at least four orders would be difficult to leech at all, with abrasion and gravitation.  Two others can transform things, and three (including the previous two) can look into shadesmar to tell what's happening around them, making it nearly impossible to sneak up on them, making conventional assassination difficult, if not impossible.  TruthWatchers are probably the least combat oriented order, so they'd be in real trouble, but StoneWards can make non metal weapons out of almost anything, stone walls to protect from fired metal, and trap a MistBorn when they touched the ground, as Amaram did to Kaladin in their fight. And if the spren is not needed directly to fight as a blade, they they could act as a distraction by yelling in the tin enhanced ear of the MistBorn, taking advantage of that metal's weaknesss.

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

Fourth ideal is where things get more interesting. I'd say a Mistborn's best option is to fly around the Radiant hitting them with tons of metal, similar to how Kelsier fought the inquisitor in TFE. If they're in a favorable environment such as a city at night, with the mists out, I'd give the advantage to the Mistborn, actually. They can stay hidden, strike from the shadows, and there's plenty of metal to push around. Perfect for slowly wearing the Radiant out of Stormlight and killing them. On a more favorable location for the Radiant like a battlefield, a Mistborn would still have plenty of metal to throw around, but they'd find staying away from the Radiant a lot harder. If a Mistborn gets forced into close combat with a fourth ideal Radiant, they will almost certainly die unless they have Atium. With enough Atium to get rid of the Radiant's Plate, the Mistborn will be able to win. Otherwise they'll die.

I agree that the envrionment plays a huge roll in this conflict. A city with the mists does play exactly to a MistBorn's strength, but it's not a battlefield that plays to a Radiant's advantage, it's a fight anywhere without lots of metal that plays to the Radiant's advantage.  A mist born needs both iron pulling and steel pushing to maximize their maneuverability. Nails and screws don't seem to be used as much since wood isn't the main building material on Roshar, so it'd be harder to find projectiles, other than what they carry.  Rosharan's don't even use coins for money.  In a forest, the MistBorn is screwed. They could only go so far before they ran out of coins or other things to push on.  And even with the mists on Scadrial, there are orders that could circumvent the mist's concealment, with gravitation, transformation, and transportation. Not even taking into account a spren could probably find a MistBorn in the mists.  And the problem with saying that with enough Atium they could get rid of the plate is that with enough Stormlight, the plate would just keep healing.  

 

PS I love this topic. It's so much fun to debate.

[therunner he/him]

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Any Radiant without Gravitation has to have an answer to big metal objects coming at them from all directions while the Mistborn flies in circles around them. Abrasion might help, but Radiants use Stormlight faster than Mistborn use metal, and if they're in a location with tons of metal everywhere, even that added speed won't be enough to avoid everything.

Not sure if Radiants use Stormlight faster than Mistborn, Kaladin on 3rd Oath flew as hard as he could for ~12 hours on single sack of spheres. It would depend on Oath level, Surge and what metal you are comparing to.

I'd guess it would be similar to steel? But hard to say really.

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Here's my stance: Radiants below the third ideal stand little chance against a Mistborn. They're slower and weaker, and as soon as the Mistborn touches them, they're powerless. Third ideal, they have a Shardblade, meaning the Mistborn will struggle more to reach them, but again, once a Mistborn touches them, they're powerless unless they have more spheres. If they dismiss their Blade while the Mistborn is touching them, then they're totally screwed, because now they're weaponless and powerless in a close-quarters fight with a Pewter-enhanced assassin wielding daggers.

Mostly agree on below third ideal, with some exceptions (Skybreakers, Windrunners who have better maneurevibility; Elsecallers who could kill them from Cognitive). Also note that below 3rd Oath Radiant will be carrying a weapon, so getting in melee range is dangerous for Mistborn, as while Radiant can survive couple deadly wounds, Mistborn cannot.

On 3rd Oath, Mistborn has to bypass Shardblade, which without Atium will be very difficult to impossible (it is shapeshifting sentient weapon). Also if they are carrying at least a dagger or something, then again Mistborn touching them is not necessarily a win for Mistborn (not sure why Mistborn get great equipment, but Radiants are assumed to be without any weapon outside of Blade).

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Fourth ideal is where things get more interesting. I'd say a Mistborn's best option is to fly around the Radiant hitting them with tons of metal, similar to how Kelsier fought the inquisitor in TFE. If they're in a favorable environment such as a city at night, with the mists out, I'd give the advantage to the Mistborn, actually. They can stay hidden, strike from the shadows, and there's plenty of metal to push around. Perfect for slowly wearing the Radiant out of Stormlight and killing them. On a more favorable location for the Radiant like a battlefield, a Mistborn would still have plenty of metal to throw around, but they'd find staying away from the Radiant a lot harder. If a Mistborn gets forced into close combat with a fourth ideal Radiant, they will almost certainly die unless they have Atium. With enough Atium to get rid of the Radiant's Plate, the Mistborn will be able to win. Otherwise they'll die.

Radiant won't stand waiting to get hit, and Plate is roughly as fast as horse (if I remember correctly). So not so easy a target to hit. Additionally they could form Shardblade into a shape of shield for additional protection. Orders with Transportation could simply move to Cognitive, and either strike from there, or use it to relocate to better position. Gravitation orders are right in the mist chasing Mistborn. Cohesion orders can well, make a hiding place for themselves if need be.

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Roshar does not have access to guns. Scadrial does. If we give a Mistborn all 16 metals, why not give them guns too? It's pretty realistic that they'd have access to them.

I understood thread to be comparing the specific Invested arts and their wielders, not planets and tech levels. Guns have less to do with Allomancy, then Fabrials have with Knights Radiant.

But alright then, Roshar has access to Fabrials, let us give Fabrials to Radiants. Example, material attracting Fabrial, to take away vials of metal from Mistborn + destabilize anchors. Potentially also fabrials blocking Invested abilities.

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

I'll toss this in here, Gravitation isn't strictly better than Iron and Steel. It can go faster, and doesn't have to rely on anchors, but I think a skilled Mistborn may be able to change directions faster. It's kind of the distinction between a cheetah and a gazelle, one has a higher top speed, the other has good turning and maneuverability. A Windrunner or a Skybreaker will be able to outpace a Mistborn (short of insane Duralumin stunts) and can flee very easily when low on Stormlight so the advantage is still theirs, but it's not just a flat trump.

Not so sure, Gravitation allows you to change direction arbitrarily + with as much acceleration you wish for (have Stormlight for). I don't see how Mistborn who is limited in directions, and whose typical strength is limited to steelpush which can propel them 50 feet upwards at most (Vin early training with Kelsier) is better. Duralumin could give them very short speed advantage, but that is about it.

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

While I completely agree with your general point that Blade/Plate are generally part of being a Radiant, not sure this is 100% true.

Not all Orders seem to advance the same (Skybreakers don't get their 2nd Surge until 3rd ideal). And Dalinar is 3rd ideal with no Blade; not sure if that is the Stormfather's restriction or the general case for Bondsmiths.

Bondsmiths seem to be the exception when it comes to Blade and Plate. For five orders we have evidence of getting blade at 3rd Oath (Windrunners, Skybreakers, Edgedancers, Elsecallers, Lightweavers) and per WoB it is that way for most orders (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/60/#e6662) , which does not rule out it happening sooner ).

For two we have evidence of Plate being at fourth Ideal (Windrunners, Elsecallers). Blade seems to be pretty established pattern, and that leaves Plate for being either Fourth Oath of Fifth Oath. Also per WoB (older and paraphrased admittadly https://wob.coppermind.net/events/167/#e3039 ) Plate was available to all Orders, so maybe even Bondsmiths .

32 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

I know living plate heals, but if they're attacking through the eye slit, the only weak spot, then they're likely to injure the radiant.

Eye slit can be closed, so Radiant would have to leave a weak spot intentionally. Even users with Dead plate close them in battle (see Adolin) and make it translucent, so it could be taken that Radiant would as well, since they have greater control over it.

33 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

A WoB confirms that electrum can be used to achieve more than what Vin and Elend did with it.  Do we know if plate protects against emotional allomancy? If it doesn't, then I'd consider it one of the most effective ways to beat a radiant, considering the mental state of some of them.

Shardplate does protect again emotional Allomancy, a fresh WoB

Quote

 

BasakaIsTheStrongest

Does Shardplate provide protection against emotional Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Don't dismiss your helmet when you're around an Allomancer.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

When have we ever seen a MistBorn using an aluminum dagger?

Aluminum was ultra rare in Era 1, it's Allomantically inert status wasn't known, and I don't know if it would hold an edge/point that well. Era 2 "aluminum" guns are an alloy that Era 1 tech couldn't make.

 

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

Abrasion/cohesion could create stone walls for shields (I think it's the combination of the two that lets StoneWards do things like that).

Nitpick: Stonewards have Cohesion and Tension. Abrasion is used by Dustbringers and Edgedancers.

28 minutes ago, therunner said:

Mostly agree on below third ideal, with some exceptions (Skybreakers, Windrunners who have better maneurevibility; Elsecallers who could kill them from Cognitive).

You might be giving too much credit to low Ideal Radiants' effective use of those powers; entering Shadesmar is really dangerous unless you know what you're doing, and it takes Kaladin a long time to really use that maneuverability. But better trained Radiants probably learn faster, so maybe.

28 minutes ago, therunner said:

On 3rd Oath, Mistborn has to bypass Shardblade, which without Atium will be very difficult to impossible (it is shapeshifting sentient weapon).

That's why Leeching is a bad idea (even if it were available; Era 1 Mistborn won't have it). Rain of coins probably would be much more effective against a pre-Plate Radiant.

If the Radiant has Plate they have an overwhelming advantage, coins probably won't scratch Plate. If they have a good ranged option or Gravitation their healing means they probably still win without Plate.

But without either the Mistborn can wear them down with coins from a distance; about the only option they'd have then would be a nonmetallic ranged weapon like a sling, and that would probably be really hard to hit a Mistborn with.

Edited June 28, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Letryx13]

20 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Aluminum was ultra rare in Era 1, it's Allomantically inert status wasn't known, and I don't know if it would hold an edge/point that well. Era 2 "aluminum" guns are an alloy that Era 1 tech couldn't make.

My point exactly.  By the time aluminum aluminum would be common enough to use as a weapon (or the alloy they use to make it stronger) guns were available. So it makes no sense for mistborn to be using aluminum daggers.

25 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Nitpick: Stonewards have Cohesion and Tension. Abrasion is used by Dustbringers and Edgedancers.

That sound you just heard was me hitting myself in the forehead for getting the surges mixed up.

[NameIess]

4 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I know living plate heals, but if they're attacking through the eye slit, the only weak spot, then they're likely to injure the radiant.

Attacking through the eye slit won't work. The Radiant can easily seal it up.

4 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

When have we ever seen a MistBorn using an aluminum dagger? Aluminum guns and bullets make sense, but you'd still need to fire point blank to get through the eye slit, or have Waxilium's level of skill. And if the bullet passed through an unarmored Radiant, they'd probably recover. I think it would have to stay lodged in them to kill them.  I only use the shardbow as an example against the idea of unvoncentional equipment.  It doesn't make sense to consider them using equipment they don't typically use. Although, depending on how the force is considered when steel pushing, if the force the arrow exerts is what the push is against, then perhaps the MistBorn would be the one that moved. Is there a WoB on this?

An aluminum dagger is a reasonable upgrade from the equipment Mistborn traditionally use. guns are also a reasonable addition, maybe even non-aluminum ones, as the added benefit of being able to push on the bullets might be worth exposing your weapon to manipulation from other allomancers. Arrows from shardbows would probably be hard to outright stop, but a Mistborn shouldn't have any problem dodging to the side.

4 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

A WoB confirms that electrum can be used to achieve more than what Vin and Elend did with it.  Do we know if plate protects against emotional allomancy? If it doesn't, then I'd consider it one of the most effective ways to beat a radiant, considering the mental state of some of them.  That's still at least a half dozen different metals at once, taking care of which metals to burn in combination with duralumin. Make a mistake on that one, and the entire reserve is gone, creating an opening. 

We've never really seen anyone mess up with Duraluminum like you're saying. Using their metals becomes pretty instinctual for a Mistborn after a while.

4 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Stormlight greatly enhances reflexes, as Kaladin proved on his first ideal, let alone the second. Large metal objects aren't likely to be used as projectiles, too easy to see and avoid. Screws, nails, or coins make more sense.  As for the surges, gravitation could evade the metal or even fire them back at the MistBorn. Transformation could turn the metal into wood from a distance.  Abrasion can aid in dodging or having the metal slide off them in the case of glancing hits. Abrasion/cohesion could create stone walls for shields (I think it's the combination of the two that lets StoneWards do things like that). And division could melt the metal or more.  A lot of this depends on the environment, unfortunately. It's hard to figure out what a completely even setting would be. An open setting with lots of metal favors the mistborn, but a more closed one or one without lots of metal favors the radiant. 

The way I see it, Stormlight basically gives you your maximum speed, strength, and awareness for as long as you have some. When Kaladin gets that, he becomes a way more dangerous soldier. However, we don't see him dodging arrows at point blank range or anything like that. He just never tires. A Mistborn can get a whole bunch of large projectiles and hit the Radiant from all sides with them. Stuff like Swords and whatnot. A Radiant with Gravitation could dodge, but firing metal back won't work. Transformation takes a lot of Stormlight, and a lot of effort if you're not Jasnah. Abrasion could mitigate hits, but using it like that would take lots of Stormlight, and the Mistborn could just sit back and wait for the Radiant to run out. Adhesion/Cohesion like that wouldn't be too helpful, just help you hunker down. and we still don't know a lot about Division.

4 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Again, stormlight increases stamina and reflexes significantly.  Leeching is the main allomantic skill to use against a Radiant.  But they'd need to get close enough to the Radiant to leech them, which puts them in range of the Radiant's powers as much as the Radiant is in range of the MistBorn's.  And with an extra set of eyes keeping watch, sneeking up is going to be tricky.  And at least four orders would be difficult to leech at all, with abrasion and gravitation.  Two others can transform things, and three (including the previous two) can look into shadesmar to tell what's happening around them, making it nearly impossible to sneak up on them, making conventional assassination difficult, if not impossible.  TruthWatchers are probably the least combat oriented order, so they'd be in real trouble, but StoneWards can make non metal weapons out of almost anything, stone walls to protect from fired metal, and trap a MistBorn when they touched the ground, as Amaram did to Kaladin in their fight. And if the spren is not needed directly to fight as a blade, they they could act as a distraction by yelling in the tin enhanced ear of the MistBorn, taking advantage of that metal's weaknesss.

Stormlight is inferior to Pewter in terms of stamina and reflexes. Abrasion likely wouldn't help against leeching, as the Stormlight that makes the Radiant slick would probably just get leeched off as soon as the Mistborn makes contact. Stonewards would be difficult, but it's not too hard for a Mistborn to fly around them, assuming they have the room to. While a spren probably could yell in a Mistborn's ear, they'd be much more useful as a weapon, especially considering how vulnerable to leeching dismissing them makes the Radiant.

4 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I agree that the envrionment plays a huge roll in this conflict. A city with the mists does play exactly to a MistBorn's strength, but it's not a battlefield that plays to a Radiant's advantage, it's a fight anywhere without lots of metal that plays to the Radiant's advantage.  A mist born needs both iron pulling and steel pushing to maximize their maneuverability. Nails and screws don't seem to be used as much since wood isn't the main building material on Roshar, so it'd be harder to find projectiles, other than what they carry.  Rosharan's don't even use coins for money.  In a forest, the MistBorn is screwed. They could only go so far before they ran out of coins or other things to push on.  And even with the mists on Scadrial, there are orders that could circumvent the mist's concealment, with gravitation, transformation, and transportation. Not even taking into account a spren could probably find a MistBorn in the mists. 

Yeah. A Mistborn's best option in an unfavorable enviroment is a retreat. They can recreate Vin's horshoe trick to run away, which will be faster than any order withou Gravitation. And I seriously doubt a Spren would be any better at finding a Mistborn in the mists than a Radiant. (I don't think Gravitation would help either. You can only hover above the mists for so long)

 

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Not sure if Radiants use Stormlight faster than Mistborn, Kaladin on 3rd Oath flew as hard as he could for ~12 hours on single sack of spheres. It would depend on Oath level, Surge and what metal you are comparing to.

I'd guess it would be similar to steel? But hard to say really.

Healing takes a lot of Stormlight, and Kaladin had a lot of spheres on him. More than Radiants normally carry.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Mostly agree on below third ideal, with some exceptions (Skybreakers, Windrunners who have better maneurevibility; Elsecallers who could kill them from Cognitive). Also note that below 3rd Oath Radiant will be carrying a weapon, so getting in melee range is dangerous for Mistborn, as while Radiant can survive couple deadly wounds, Mistborn cannot.

On 3rd Oath, Mistborn has to bypass Shardblade, which without Atium will be very difficult to impossible (it is shapeshifting sentient weapon).

Yeah, fair. I don't think Elsecallers would find it easy to kill a Mistborn from the Cognitive, but it is possible. Aluminum daggers will block a Shardblade, so that will make it easier, as will Pewter's superiority to Stormlight. 

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Also if they are carrying at least a dagger or something, then again Mistborn touching them is not necessarily a win for Mistborn (not sure why Mistborn get great equipment, but Radiants are assumed to be without any weapon outside of Blade).

Standard equipment for a Mistborn are metals, mistcloak, and daggers that are immune to allomancy. Traditionally glass or obsidian, but an aluminum alloy will be a far superior option, so a Mistborn from era 2 or beyond will almost certainly have them. Standard equipment for a Radiant is plenty of Stormlight. I don't think we ever see a Radiant going into a fight that they can use their Blade in carrying any other weapon. Maybe a knife, but I'm pretty sure even Kaladin didn't have one on him.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Radiant won't stand waiting to get hit, and Plate is roughly as fast as horse (if I remember correctly). So not so easy a target to hit. Additionally they could form Shardblade into a shape of shield for additional protection. Orders with Transportation could simply move to Cognitive, and either strike from there, or use it to relocate to better position. Gravitation orders are right in the mist chasing Mistborn. Cohesion orders can well, make a hiding place for themselves if need be.

So without Gravitation or Transportation, a Radiants plan is either running or hiding in a hole? Both of those seem pretty good to me. And we see Shardbearers get hit all the time. The Parshendi hit Dalinar with giant slings.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

I understood thread to be comparing the specific Invested arts and their wielders, not planets and tech levels. Guns have less to do with Allomancy, then Fabrials have with Knights Radiant.

But alright then, Roshar has access to Fabrials, let us give Fabrials to Radiants. Example, material attracting Fabrial, to take away vials of metal from Mistborn + destabilize anchors. Potentially also fabrials blocking Invested abilities.

Guns could reasonably be part of standard Mistborn equipment. Are Fabrials part of standard Radiant equipment? Mistborn don't fight barehanded, and if and when we see a Radiant fight a Mistborn in the books, the Mistborn is almost certainly not going to fight without equipment.

[therunner he/him]

7 hours ago, Nameless said:

 A Mistborn can get a whole bunch of large projectiles and hit the Radiant from all sides with them. Stuff like Swords and whatnot.

How will Mistborn attack from all sides, when steel and iron work on lines radiating away from Mistborn? At best they can attack from two sides at a time. Anything else would require skill on par with Kelsier, which is quite outside of ordinary.

7 hours ago, Nameless said:

Stormlight is inferior to Pewter in terms of stamina and reflexes. Abrasion likely wouldn't help against leeching, as the Stormlight that makes the Radiant slick would probably just get leeched off as soon as the Mistborn makes contact. Stonewards would be difficult, but it's not too hard for a Mistborn to fly around them, assuming they have the room to. While a spren probably could yell in a Mistborn's ear, they'd be much more useful as a weapon, especially considering how vulnerable to leeching dismissing them makes the Radiant.

In terms of stamina and reflexes Stormlight is equivalent to Pewter, both seem to only 'perfect' and push you to natural limit.

Pewter has edge in doubling strength, but it heals very little comparatively.
Stormlight has edge in healing on par with F-Gold, but provides little strength boost.

When it comes to Abrasion, there is a question if the Mistborn even could make contact in the first place, provided Radiant is sufficiently 'slicked'. Most likely yes, but could they hold on long enough to fully cancel that effect? I would say no.

7 hours ago, Nameless said:

Yeah. A Mistborn's best option in an unfavorable enviroment is a retreat. They can recreate Vin's horshoe trick to run away, which will be faster than any order withou Gravitation. And I seriously doubt a Spren would be any better at finding a Mistborn in the mists than a Radiant. (I don't think Gravitation would help either. You can only hover above the mists for so long)

Could they recreate that trick? I mean, Vin was kind of a savant (lower-case s), and no other Mistborn did that, neither Kelsier (who was savant-like in Steel and Iron) nor Elend (who had more raw power).

7 hours ago, Nameless said:

Healing takes a lot of Stormlight, and Kaladin had a lot of spheres on him. More than Radiants normally carry.

They need to heal only when they get hit. If Mistborn gets hit, they are worse off permanently, maybe even crippled or dead, if hit with Shardblade.

Well, why would they not carry as much Light as possible into battle? We see in RoW that they have started sowing spheres into clothes, adding a small backpack/sash with some more is not much of a stretch. Main point was that even when using very physical surge to a maximum (Gravitation), amount of spheres one person can easily carry was sufficient to last 12 hours, more then enough for any fight with Mistborn.

7 hours ago, Nameless said:

Yeah, fair. I don't think Elsecallers would find it easy to kill a Mistborn from the Cognitive, but it is possible.

If the Mistborn is currently not burning, it would be 'trivial', i.e. as difficult as soulcasting regular person. If they are burning it would consume more Stormlight, but it would still be doable.

7 hours ago, Nameless said:

 Aluminum daggers will block a Shardblade, so that will make it easier, as will Pewter's superiority to Stormlight.

Shardblade would still have advantage of weight and momentum, so daggers would not be that suitable for blocking. Also, Shardblade can shapeshift, i.e. it could get blocked but still be near Mistborn, then shapeshift to allow it to move around daggers and Radiant wins.

Or if the Radiant is sufficiently skilled they could use skipping (where you dismiss Blade for split second to avoid getting blocked by Shardblade, or something else).

I addressed my opinion on Pewter vs Stormlight earlier.

7 hours ago, Nameless said:

Standard equipment for a Mistborn are metals, mistcloak, and daggers that are immune to allomancy. Traditionally glass or obsidian, but an aluminum alloy will be a far superior option, so a Mistborn from era 2 or beyond will almost certainly have them. Standard equipment for a Radiant is plenty of Stormlight. I don't think we ever see a Radiant going into a fight that they can use their Blade in carrying any other weapon. Maybe a knife, but I'm pretty sure even Kaladin didn't have one on him.

Standard equipment changes as the time and technology changes, as you yourself allow for.

Most Radiant carry weapons prior to 3rd Oath, and considering that Fused carry Stormlight leaching lances, it would be prudent of them to carry a backup weapon, i.e. small dagger or knife. Allowing Radiant to have a knife on their person is really not that much of a stretch I think, it is just a knife afterall, and sometimes it is useful to have tool that does not cut through everything like butter.

How will that equipment change going forward we don't exactly know but SotD 2 gives some hints, but clearly it will change.

7 hours ago, Nameless said:

So without Gravitation or Transportation, a Radiants plan is either running or hiding in a hole? Both of those seem pretty good to me.

Well, you chose ideal terrain for Mistborn, there it makes sense to deny them those advantages as best able. And we have seen little of those Orders, so I did not wish to engage in speculation on what they could do, and settled for conservative option. Abrasion orders could also dodge much more easily and chase after Mistborn, I just did not explicitly mention them.

7 hours ago, Nameless said:

And we see Shardbearers get hit all the time. The Parshendi hit Dalinar with giant slings.

Yes, and that was deadplate, Dalinar made little effort to dodge, and despite those being multi-kilo stones thrown by equivalent of Pewter arms, they did not damage the Plate that much.

7 hours ago, Nameless said:

Guns could reasonably be part of standard Mistborn equipment. Are Fabrials part of standard Radiant equipment? Mistborn don't fight barehanded, and if and when we see a Radiant fight a Mistborn in the books, the Mistborn is almost certainly not going to fight without equipment.

To paraphrase you, Fabrials could reasonably be part of standard Radiant equipment. Why deny themselves tools that would help them?

I will point out again, that at least Fabrials and Radiants are contemporary, whereas Mistborn and guns are separated by ~200 years (as far as we currently know). So Radiant equipped with Fabrial is more "realistic" then Mistborn with gun.

 

EDIT (Posted before finishing):  I would also add this, while all Mistborn are the same, there are 10 kinds of Radiants, some more suited for direct combat, some less. At ~4th Oath all have good melee option in Shardblade, and great defense in Shardplate, but suitability of their Surges for combat is different. However, I think that that diversity makes them much better at supporting each other, and covering weaknesses.

E.g. 10 Mistborn vs 10 Knight Radiant, if those Radiants were from different suitable orders they would be stronger then if it was only 10 Edgedancers for example. A Stoneward to manipulate terrain and create defensive position, Lightweaver to confuse and create illusions, Skybreakers to harry and chase Mistborn, Windrunners to do the same, or provide protection from projectiles with Reverse Lashings. Elsecallers to attack from Cognitive, or scout for information (Willshaper could do the same).

I would say they would work much better as a team, than as individuals, and there even those 'weaker' orders would show their value.

Edited June 29, 2022 by therunner
spelling + final paragraph

[Rg2045]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

How will Mistborn attack from all sides, when steel and iron work on lines radiating away from Mistborn? At best they can attack from two sides at a time. Anything else would require skill on par with Kelsier, which is quite outside of ordinary.

In terms of stamina and reflexes Stormlight is equivalent to Pewter, both seem to only 'perfect' and push you to natural limit.

Pewter has edge in doubling strength, but it heals very little comparatively.
Stormlight has edge in healing on par with F-Gold, but provides little strength boost.

When it comes to Abrasion, there is a question if the Mistborn even could make contact in the first place, provided Radiant is sufficiently 'slicked'. Most likely yes, but could they hold on long enough to fully cancel that effect? I would say no.

Could they recreate that trick? I mean, Vin was kind of a savant (lower-case s), and no other Mistborn did that, neither Kelsier (who was savant-like in Steel and Iron) nor Elend (who had more raw power).

They need to heal only when they get hit. If Mistborn gets hit, they are worse off permanently, maybe even crippled or dead, if hit with Shardblade.

Well, why would they not carry as much Light as possible into battle? We see in RoW that they have started sowing spheres into clothes, adding a small backpack/sash with some more is not much of a stretch. Main point was that even when using very physical surge to a maximum (Gravitation), amount of spheres one person can easily carry was sufficient to last 12 hours, more then enough for any fight with Mistborn.

If the Mistborn is currently not burning, it would be 'trivial', i.e. as difficult as soulcasting regular person. If they are burning it would consume more Stormlight, but it would still be doable.

Shardblade would still have advantage of weight and momentum, so daggers would not be that suitable for blocking. Also, Shardblade can shapeshift, i.e. it could get blocked but still be near Mistborn, then shapeshift to allow it to move around daggers and Radiant wins.

Or if the Radiant is sufficiently skilled they could use skipping (where you dismiss Blade for split second to avoid getting blocked by Shardblade, or something else).

I addressed my opinion on Pewter vs Stormlight earlier.

Standard equipment changes as the time and technology changes, as you yourself allow for.

Most Radiant carry weapons prior to 3rd Oath, and considering that Fused carry Stormlight leaching lances, it would be prudent of them to carry a backup weapon, i.e. small dagger or knife. Allowing Radiant to have a knife on their person is really not that much of a stretch I think, it is just a knife afterall, and sometimes it is useful to have tool that does not cut through everything like butter.

How will that equipment change going forward we don't exactly know but SotD 2 gives some hints, but clearly it will change.

Well, you chose ideal terrain for Mistborn, there it makes sense to deny them those advantages as best able. And we have seen little of those Orders, so I did not wish to engage in speculation on what they could do, and settled for conservative option. Abrasion orders could also dodge much more easily and chase after Mistborn, I just did not explicitly mention them.

Yes, and that was deadplate, Dalinar made little effort to dodge, and despite those being multi-kilo stones thrown by equivalent of Pewter arms, they did not damage the Plate that much.

To paraphrase you, Fabrials could reasonably be part of standard Radiant equipment. Why deny themselves tools that would help them?

I will point out again, that at least Fabrials and Radiants are contemporary, whereas Mistborn and guns are separated by ~200 years (as far as we currently know). So Radiant equipped with Fabrial is more "realistic" then Mistborn with gun.

 

EDIT (Posted before finishing):  I would also add this, while all Mistborn are the same, there are 10 kinds of Radiants, some more suited for direct combat, some less. At ~4th Oath all have good melee option in Shardblade, and great defense in Shardplate, but suitability of their Surges for combat is different. However, I think that that diversity makes them much better at supporting each other, and covering weaknesses.

E.g. 10 Mistborn vs 10 Knight Radiant, if those Radiants were from different suitable orders they would be stronger then if it was only 10 Edgedancers for example. A Stoneward to manipulate terrain and create defensive position, Lightweaver to confuse and create illusions, Skybreakers to harry and chase Mistborn, Windrunners to do the same, or provide protection from projectiles with Reverse Lashings. Elsecallers to attack from Cognitive, or scout for information (Willshaper could do the same).

I would say they would work much better as a team, than as individuals, and there even those 'weaker' orders would show their value.

A 10 v 10 would be fun but extremely unfair lol

[cometaryorbit]

15 hours ago, Nameless said:

 Arrows from shardbows would probably be hard to outright stop, but a Mistborn shouldn't have any problem dodging to the side.

I actually don't think they'd even have trouble Pushing away shardbow/grandbow arrows: they don't have that much mass. More than normal arrows but... still the momentum would be way less than a flying human, so well within normal Allomantic Push strength.

8 hours ago, therunner said:

In terms of stamina and reflexes Stormlight is equivalent to Pewter, both seem to only 'perfect' and push you to natural limit.

Pewter has edge in doubling strength, but it heals very little comparatively.
Stormlight has edge in healing on par with F-Gold, but provides little strength boost.

I'm not sure. I agree on Pewter giving more strength and Stormlight healing better (obviously) but I think Pewter balance and agility is an external boost unrelated to an Allomancer's natural ability, rather than taking them to their natural 100% peak. That seems to be how Pewter works, a direct external boost rather than a factor of the Allomancer's natural or base ability.

Pewter burners are also probably faster than Stormlight holders, though it doesn't matter much for a Mistborn with Iron/Steel mobility.

--

Vin's horseshoe trick is definitely unique to her (the annotations emphasize that) and not something Mistborn in general can do. Throwing down coins to jump off is the normal Mistborn Iron/Steel mobility option. (Which I think is why Kelsier and Vin pewter drag in book 1: for very long distances like that you can't carry enough coins, without Vins trick to reuse your anchors.)

--

15 hours ago, Nameless said:

 Yeah, fair. I don't think Elsecallers would find it easy to kill a Mistborn from the Cognitive, but it is possible.

It's probably* possible at some level, I was questioning whether it would be doable at 2nd ideal.

*I will note however that Mistborn are usually burning copper and/or tin even  when not fighting, so Investiture interference will be an issue. Scadrial magic is relatively low Investiture so it's probably still possible though.

At high ideals the Radiant wins pretty automatically imo. Even if the Radiant is one of the Orders without flight or a good ranged-attack Surge, like an Edgedancer/Truthwatcher or Willshaper/Stoneward, coins just aren't going to do anything to living Shardplate, so the Mistborn will have to get into Shardblade range to attack effectively. And at that point one hit kills the Mistborn whereas they have to get through both Plate and Stormlight healing.

EDIT: Even atium probably won't work here: a normal amount of atium (maybe 30 seconds or a minute) will run out, making the Mistborn Shardblade-vulnerable again, before daggers can get through living Plate and Stormlight healing.

A Skybreaker or Dustbringer at high ideal could probably just explode them from a distance without there ever really being a fight. 

So imo the more interesting question is where the "cross-over point" is. At 1st ideal they might have trouble with some of the stronger combat Mistings (a Coinshot likely, possibly a Thug though healing might tip that balance) whereas a few Orders (Bondsmiths, possibly Elsecallers, maybe Skybreakers and Dustbringers depending on how Division works) at 4th or 5th ideal might be able to defeat the Lord Ruler or Marsh.

Edited June 29, 2022 by cometaryorbit
atium comment

[therunner he/him]

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I'm not sure. I agree on Pewter giving more strength and Stormlight healing better (obviously) but I think Pewter balance and agility is an external boost unrelated to an Allomancer's natural ability, rather than taking them to their natural 100% peak. That seems to be how Pewter works, a direct external boost rather than a factor of the Allomancer's natural or base ability.

Pewter burners are also probably faster than Stormlight holders, though it doesn't matter much for a Mistborn with Iron/Steel mobility.

Completely fair. I personally read it that the strength+endurance is the main pewter power, and the rest is passive-ish effect, and it only bring them up to peak human, or very little beyond that.
But I concede it can be read the other way as well.

Also agreed on speed, pewter burner would most likely be a bit faster, but for Mistborn that is less important.

[cometaryorbit]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Completely fair. I personally read it that the strength+endurance is the main pewter power, and the rest is passive-ish effect, and it only bring them up to peak human, or very little beyond that.

The main reasons I think otherwise are:

- I don't think Allomancy's degree of power is ever based on what you naturally have, as Feruchemy is. I think that's part of the difference between the two systems, you draw external power from Preservation without any real correlation to your own attributes.

(Your weight does matter for Iron/Steel but that's due to regular Newtonian physics, being heavier doesn't actually give you more Allomantic power.)

- Sazed comments about Spook's balance/grace when he lands from jumping off a 2 story house as being beyond what's normally possible (as a clue that he's somehow become a Thug though that should be impossible).