Allomancer vs Knight Radiant

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

He noted that the stores that changed his levels of investiture were running low. That's F-nicrosil.

A base power increase sure, but I'm not convinced that that means the bands were running out of A-steel just the ability to push on trace metals.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

A base power increase sure, but I'm not convinced that that means the bands were running out of A-steel just the ability to push on trace metals.

How is that any different? That's F-nicrosil either way. According to that WoB, it shouldn't run out.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

How is that any different? That's F-nicrosil either way. According to that WoB, it shouldn't run out.

The WoB was about medallions, which you can count the bands I guess, but I would place them as their own thing.

Medallions don't have the huge power boost the bands do.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

The WoB was about medallions, which you can count the bands I guess, but I would place them as their own thing.

Medallions don't have the huge power boost the bands do.

Medallions and the Bands are the same thing. It's just that the bands had access to compounding. Unless you can explain how someone can use powers from F-nicrosil without tapping F-nicrosil, that WoB is innacurate.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

Medallions and the Bands are the same thing. It's just that the bands had access to compounding. Unless you can explain how someone can use powers from F-nicrosil without tapping F-nicrosil, that WoB is innacurate.

Medallions don't have boosted investiture stores, the bands clearly do.

Therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that the two attribute behave differently.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Medallions don't have boosted investiture stores, the bands clearly do.

Therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that the two attribute behave differently.

Yes it is unreasonable. Why would power levels affect the way it's tapped and stored? Also, if medallions worked like that, then storing your abilities would permanently store them and leave you powerless.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Yes it is unreasonable. Why would power levels affect the way it's tapped and stored?

Why do you lose some power when you ccompress a feruchemical attribute?

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Also, if medallions worked like that, then storing your abilities would permanently store them and leave you powerless.

That depends on how excisors work.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Why do you lose some power when you ccompress a feruchemical attribute?

I don't know what you mean by 'compressing' a feruchemical attribute.

Just now, Frustration said:

That depends on how excisors work.

Not really. Nicrosil feruchemy would be completely useless without compounding.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

I don't know what you mean by 'compressing' a feruchemical attribute.

Drawing it out at a faster rate than you stored it.

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Not really. Nicrosil feruchemy would be completely useless without compounding.

You know we'll have the answers to these questions in a few months how about we table discussions on medallions until then?

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Drawing it out at a faster rate than you stored it.

That doesn't happen with copper. And if it did work like that, Wax should've kept all of his allomantic abilities after chucking the bands out the window.

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

You know we'll have the answers to these questions in a few months how about we table discussions on medallions until then?

Fine. if we're not going to discuss medallions, then we definitely can't bring in surge fabrials.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

What is unfair about saying: 'A Mistborn has a very good chance of assassinating a Radiant, regardless of their ideal'? Nothing. Just like saying: 'A Radiant has a very good chance of killing a Mistborn if they have the advantadge of surprise' isn't unfair to the Radiant. Both of those statements are factual, so far as I see them. Do you disagree with these statements?

The difference is that a mistborn doesnt risk giving up access to his entire magic system by stabbing someone in the back where it may very well be frowned upon by many spren.  Not all orders would be against that but I think that is a dangerous gray area for a lot of them.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

I think both are pointless, yes if you rig a fight enough you can get any outcome you want, so don't rig the fight at all.

This is a fact.  This is also why the entire vs battle ends like this most of the time.  Tensions flare and then it dies down to nothing or gets locked.  

I believe most agree that first and second oaths die pretty quick vs mistborn  3rd oaths are where things become more of a toss up and then 4th or higher is where mistborn get splat without tech.  Medallions make a huge swing with just gold+ steel / pewter / iron / zinc and guns lead to the disagreement of what caliber and type of ammo breaks through plate (some think plate can withstand a nuke and others think it is able to be broken by a .22 so no ground there usually).  

There is no way to agree on terms because it will always swing the vote with any one option.  I cant wait to see the conflict come to the page.  I have a feeling it will be close and both sides will be using weapons we can only dream of right now.  

 

Mistborn uses atium to duct tape a harmonium bomb on the back of the radiant and then pushes off of it as far as possible while flaring as much pewter as it can before the boom.  Radiant pulls X shenanigans to get out of it all by teleporting to the sun and then flying around the moon before being shot through the head with aluminum bullets from an angle noone thought possible but then the radiant had that last sphere that lets insta heal the gaping hole in his head before teleporting back into his now fully recovered live plate before a new harmonium bomb is duct taped to it and he uses "the ground is lava" to trap the mistborn in the earth before changing the waves of sound and light around him to redirect the blast but the mistborn knew this was going to happen all along and a shards mistpowers enter into his lungs to magically piece him together as the bits of flesh are all torn off of his face before boosting his power level above 9000 and ripping a whole in the earths crust itself to toss like a ragdoll at the radiant but then a perpendicularity opens up and swallows up that earth simultaneously recharging all of the radiants spheres making the radiant grin at his new found endless fountain of raw power but then his grin gets wiped as he sees this slight shimmer as a timebubble drops and the mistborn is covered in all newly compounded armors from the soulcaster he borrowed from the radiants mother last night.   

Woah!  Sorry I think I just got lost watching the last fight of "The Deadliest Warrior" Radiants vs Mistborn.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

If the spren is alive, and is the metal, the metal is invested. It might not be a shardmetal, but it would be just as hard to push on as something inside someone's body.

On a more serious note where is the line from what can be leeched and what cant?  If it is investiture being drained and spren is the metal and is invested why does plate become immune to being drained?  I get that the radiant inside is protected from nicrosil while the plate is on... but couldnt the mistborn straight murder the spren and/or drain the stormlight from the radiant as a result of draining the living plate?  I know that would take some time but theoretically how is it that the investiture of a spren in live plate can both block all invested arts while also being immune to them as well?  I cant see how burning chromium while touching plate does nothing for the mistborn because magic plate is so invested that it cant ever be leeched and it is so invested that the person under it cant ever be leeched.  Chromium does something in this fight just as any other surge would.  

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

On a more serious note where is the line from what can be leeched and what cant?  If it is investiture being drained and spren is the metal and is invested why does plate become immune to being drained?  I get that the radiant inside is protected from nicrosil while the plate is on... but couldnt the mistborn straight murder the spren and/or drain the stormlight from the radiant as a result of draining the living plate?  I know that would take some time but theoretically how is it that the investiture of a spren in live plate can both block all invested arts while also being immune to them as well?  I cant see how burning chromium while touching plate does nothing for the mistborn because magic plate is so invested that it cant ever be leeched and it is so invested that the person under it cant ever be leeched.  Chromium does something in this fight just as any other surge would.  

Living Shardplate doesn't require light. And even if it did it would be really hard to drain it.

Spoiler

ProfessorWC

Could a Surgebinder shut down Shardplate by cracking a piece and then consuming the Stormlight from the internal gems?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, though getting the Stormlight out of those gems while they're already powering something is not easy.

General Twitter 2015 (March 12, 2015)

Starfishpr1me

Why do Szeth and Kaladin not suck all the stormlight out of the gems that power shardplate when they fight people wearing plate, thus rendering the plate useless? Is there something different about the gems that power plate that would make this impossible?

Brandon Sanderson

So, in the magic of Stormlight (and across several of my books) there's are some underlying principles. One is that the power of the magic (which we call investiture) is difficult to manipulate when it is claimed by someone, or something, else.

You can imagine that magic in the process of being used, like the energy powering plate, works like a kind of negative charge to your own magic. Trying to lash someone in Plate will be very difficult, as the stormlight in the plate is going to resist your attempts to push through it and get at the person. Likewise, that power in the plate is actively being used--draining it is difficult.

If you can rip off a piece of the plate, disconnecting it from the system, then you can get at those gemstones and drain them much more easily. But tucked away inside, they're both shielded and being actively used by the armor. They would be virtually impossible to drain.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 28, 2016)

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Living Shardplate doesn't require light. And even if it did it would be really hard to drain it.

  Hide contents

ProfessorWC

Could a Surgebinder shut down Shardplate by cracking a piece and then consuming the Stormlight from the internal gems?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, though getting the Stormlight out of those gems while they're already powering something is not easy.

General Twitter 2015 (March 12, 2015)

Starfishpr1me

Why do Szeth and Kaladin not suck all the stormlight out of the gems that power shardplate when they fight people wearing plate, thus rendering the plate useless? Is there something different about the gems that power plate that would make this impossible?

Brandon Sanderson

So, in the magic of Stormlight (and across several of my books) there's are some underlying principles. One is that the power of the magic (which we call investiture) is difficult to manipulate when it is claimed by someone, or something, else.

You can imagine that magic in the process of being used, like the energy powering plate, works like a kind of negative charge to your own magic. Trying to lash someone in Plate will be very difficult, as the stormlight in the plate is going to resist your attempts to push through it and get at the person. Likewise, that power in the plate is actively being used--draining it is difficult.

If you can rip off a piece of the plate, disconnecting it from the system, then you can get at those gemstones and drain them much more easily. But tucked away inside, they're both shielded and being actively used by the armor. They would be virtually impossible to drain.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 28, 2016)

 

So this says that the stormlight in the spheres would be virtually impossible to drain.  I can see that.  As for the spren themselves... no longer targeting stormlight or a radiant at all.  How do you kill a spren?  How do you damage a spren?  

(Please forgive me in this.  I am only on chapter 20 of Oathbringer so a lot of what I go off of is forum and wiki info and WoB I have read).  I had this post up about leechers and their own investiture.  Leechers and their own investiture - Cosmere Discussion - 17th Shard, the Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite

In one of the responses it talked about a spren being stabbed with a shardblade and not dying but reappearing elsewhere later.  So I take it in my future readings I shall read about Kaladin attacking a spren.  Why then is it futile to attack a spren in the form of living plate?  

It isnt a difference between innate vs a more physical investiture because biochomatic breath can be leeched away just as stormlight can.  Metals are only a key to the investiture being used so the fact that it burns the metals even when not actively being used says it works on a different principle than duralumin too in that chromium knows what has that potential for investiture usage as well no?  So why cant it just straight up drain a spren?  And if it can drain a spren what would happen to that spren?  Would it turn the living plate into dead plate if only temporary?  Would that spren try to resist and heal itself via taking the stormlight from the spheres under it?  

Or is the only way to kill and hurt a spren by bashing it with weapons?  Kind of weird that chromium cant hurt a spren since all dead shards came from the simple act of abandoning oaths.  Breaking a promise is more dangerous to spren than a leecher draining all of the investiture that makes them... them?

[Rg2045]

Mistborn vs KR direct confrontation is 8-9/10 KR victory? That’s fair enough, 
So let’s use a different scenario so that we can even the playing field. Average KR let’s say an edgedancer. (Only non op KR that I could consider average enough) tho we could argue any of the orders if we really want to. (Don’t let this scenario restrict the momentum)

has to survive one week (not kill the Mistborn tho their is no punishment if it happens)  

mistborn has to kill the radiant, may attempt it as many times as they wish and at any time as long as it’s within the week. 

All scenarios are actually 2, one at the third ideal and one at the 4th 

in all scenarios they have a week prep time(if they know) 
scenarios:

1) no prep time time starts right away and the mistborn on roshar. radiant doesn’t know about the attempt 
2) same as 1 but the radiant knows that someone is coming 

3) prep time+ mistborn having access to all Scandrian metals. Radiant doesn’t know

4) same as 3 but radiant knows of the coming attack

5) bonus round they both know it’s a week but the radiant thinks it’s a roshar week but doesn’t think it’s 7 days. How does this play out? 

 @Frustration and @Nameless do y’all think this is fair? 

[cometaryorbit]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

You know we'll have the answers to these questions in a few months how about we table discussions on medallions until then?

Good idea.

50 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I believe most agree that first and second oaths die pretty quick vs mistborn  3rd oaths are where things become more of a toss up and then 4th or higher is where mistborn get splat

[...]

guns lead to the disagreement of what caliber and type of ammo breaks through plate

Yeah pretty much.

Well we know from WoB that plate would protect well against bullets, but Wax using Vindication could break Plate with two shots, arguably maybe one shot in absolutely ideal conditions (which probably includes Steelpushing the bullet for extra force).

Combined I think those WoBs actually give fairly strict limits- it's very effective against normal personal scale Era 2 firearms fired by normal users (a normal person would have real trouble hitting the exact cracked spot again, though Wax could do it) but once you boost that force to Vindication + steelpush levels it becomes potentially vulnerable.

So a .22 would be useless but a grenade or any significant explosive would break right through, and a high powered sniper rifle (maybe not with Era 2 tech but once we get to mid-late 20th century*) might do it with one shot.

* Era 2 firearms might actually be a bit behind their usual ~1910 equivalent level since Northern Scadrial hasn't had any regular wars since the Catacendre (being a single nation the whole time), though I think they had fights with koloss tribes .

Edited July 6, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Rg2045 said:

Mistborn vs KR direct confrontation is 8-9/10 KR victory? That’s fair enough, 

Fourth ideal Radiant, I agree, barring unrealistic amounts of Atium. I'd put a Third ideal Radiant at 5/10 or so, depending on equipment, and second or lower at 8-9/10 for the Mistborn. (Since Radiants tend to use metal, non-aluminum weapons when they don't have Shardblades)

Also, we need to establish the equipment. For example, can a Mistborn with prep time get a bunch of gatling guns and rig them all to be fireable via allomancy?

5 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

1) no prep time time starts right away and the mistborn on roshar. radiant doesn’t know about the attempt 

Mistborn wins 8-9/10. Ideals don't matter a whole lot for this one, as leeching will prevent the Radiant from summoning Plate and Blade. Radiants aren't normally suspicious of regular people walking up to them while they're walking around off-duty, so with soothing to get rid of what little suspicion they might feel, a sneak attack will be pretty easy to pull off. However, a skilled or lucky enough Radiant might be able to turn the tables on the Mistborn and land enough hits to take them down before the Mistborn manages to do the same. Still in the Mistborn's favor, I'd say, but the Radiant at least has a small chance.

16 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

2) same as 1 but the radiant knows that someone is coming 

Third ideal Radiant, I'd give a 7/10 win for the Mistborn. I'd already give the edge to a Mistborn in a straight-up fight, so with at least a little bit of a surprise advantage things are even more in their favor. Fourth ideal, things are trickier. I don't think a melee strategy would work unless the Radiant wasn't prepared for soothing, and even then it would be pretty chancy. So assassination via guns (If they're allowed) or dropping big pieces of metal on the Radiant's head would probably work better. Or they could riot the Radiant's paranoia to try and make them attack innocents or do something stupid. Maybe 4-5/10 for the Mistborn? I'm honestly not sure how this would play out.

24 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

3) prep time+ mistborn having access to all Scandrian metals. Radiant doesn’t know

9.5-9.9/10. With Atium, the sneak attack plan becomes basically unbeatable.

25 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

4) same as 3 but radiant knows of the coming attack

9/10 for Third ideal, maybe 6-7 for the Fourth? The sneak attack plan is probably back on the table, with Atium to back it up. So is getting a bunch of large metallic objects and smashing the Radiant to bits while dodging everything they can do via Atium.

30 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

5) bonus round they both know it’s a week but the radiant thinks it’s a roshar week but doesn’t think it’s 7 days. How does this play out? 

Mistborn fakes their death on the fifth day, then kills the Radiant on the sixth while they're out drinking to their victory.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 minute ago, cometaryorbit said:

Well we know from WoB that plate would protect well against bullets, but Wax using Vindication could break Plate with two shots, arguably maybe one shot in absolutely ideal conditions (which probably includes Steelpushing the bullet for extra force).

Combined I think those WoBs actually give fairly strict limits- it's very effective against normal personal scale Era 2 firearms fired by normal users (a normal person would have real trouble hitting the exact cracked spot again, though Wax could do it) but once you boost that force to Vindication + steelpush levels it becomes potentially vulnerable.

So a .22 would be useless but a grenade of something would break right through, and a high powered sniper rifle (maybe not with Era 2 tech but once we get to mid-late 20th century*) might do it with one shot.

* Era 2 firearms might actually be a bit behind their usual ~1910 equivalent level since Northern Scadrial hasn't had any regular wars since the Catacendre (being a single nation the whole time), though I think they had fights with koloss tribes .

I guess the issue is that other than "large caliber round" we dont know too much about these weapons.  I hear the sterrion 36 and picture a .357 in my brain.  A larger caliber than that I imagine as the .44.  But there are much larger caliber rounds that could be made in a handgun that would require a thugs arms to shoot (I wont touch a 45-70 revolver with a 10 foot pole as I enjoy my wrists working but I am sure if I was a pewterarm I could shoot them all day long) plus on top of shooting a far larger round (nearly double the grain size from my .44 to my 45-70 rounds) you would also be able to steelpush as a mistborn.  

TLDR:  If Wax with Vindication could break plate in 2 shots there is little doubt that pewterarms already shoot far larger rounds than Wax and with a steelpush in addition you have the word shardplate quickly become more pun-y.  

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Or they could riot the Radiant's paranoia to try and make them attack innocents or do something stupid. Maybe 4-5/10 for the Mistborn? I'm honestly not sure how this would play out.

The "how can I make this radiant break their oaths and bond" trick.

[NameIess]

Just now, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The "how can I make this radiant break their oaths and bond" trick.

Pretty much. Might have the unintended side effect of causing the Radiant to swear a new oath, so you've got to be careful.

[Rg2045]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Fourth ideal Radiant, I agree, barring unrealistic amounts of Atium. I'd put a Third ideal Radiant at 5/10 or so, depending on equipment, and second or lower at 8-9/10 for the Mistborn. (Since Radiants tend to use metal, non-aluminum weapons when they don't have Shardblades)

Also, we need to establish the equipment. For example, can a Mistborn with prep time get a bunch of gatling guns and rig them all to be fireable via allomancy?

Mistborn wins 8-9/10. Ideals don't matter a whole lot for this one, as leeching will prevent the Radiant from summoning Plate and Blade. Radiants aren't normally suspicious of regular people walking up to them while they're walking around off-duty, so with soothing to get rid of what little suspicion they might feel, a sneak attack will be pretty easy to pull off. However, a skilled or lucky enough Radiant might be able to turn the tables on the Mistborn and land enough hits to take them down before the Mistborn manages to do the same. Still in the Mistborn's favor, I'd say, but the Radiant at least has a small chance.

Third ideal Radiant, I'd give a 7/10 win for the Mistborn. I'd already give the edge to a Mistborn in a straight-up fight, so with at least a little bit of a surprise advantage things are even more in their favor. Fourth ideal, things are trickier. I don't think a melee strategy would work unless the Radiant wasn't prepared for soothing, and even then it would be pretty chancy. So assassination via guns (If they're allowed) or dropping big pieces of metal on the Radiant's head would probably work better. Or they could riot the Radiant's paranoia to try and make them attack innocents or do something stupid. Maybe 4-5/10 for the Mistborn? I'm honestly not sure how this would play out.

9.5-9.9/10. With Atium, the sneak attack plan becomes basically unbeatable.

9/10 for Third ideal, maybe 6-7 for the Fourth? The sneak attack plan is probably back on the table, with Atium to back it up. So is getting a bunch of large metallic objects and smashing the Radiant to bits while dodging everything they can do via Atium.

Mistborn fakes their death on the fifth day, then kills the Radiant on the sixth while they're out drinking to their victory.

Emotional allomancy doesn’t work on 4th ideal and up because their shard plate act like a copper cloud 

also for scenario one how reddily access does a mistborn have to chromium on roshar? 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Just now, Rg2045 said:

Emotional allomancy doesn’t work on 4th ideal and up because their shard plate act like a copper cloud

Is that while actively wearing armor?  Is armor actively working while hidden?  Or is the armor not acting as armor while hidden but instead a free 100% uptime coppercloud for saying the words.

[NameIess]

Just now, Rg2045 said:

Emotional allomancy doesn’t work on 4th ideal and up because their shard plate act like a copper cloud 

If they wear it constantly, which they almost certainly won't.

Just now, Rg2045 said:

also for scenario one how reddily access does a mistborn have to chromium on roshar? 

Depends on how easily they can get access to a Soulcaster who doesn't ask too many questions. Or steal one.

[Rg2045]

Just now, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Is that while actively wearing armor?  Is armor actively working while hidden?  Or is the armor not acting as armor while hidden but instead a free 100% uptime coppercloud for saying the words.

Idk I just know of the WoB that I’m too “at work” to look up 

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Rg2045 said:

Idk I just know of the WoB that I’m too “at work” to look up 

It only works while Plate is summoned.

[Rg2045]

7 minutes ago, Nameless said:

It only works while Plate is summoned.

Source? 
you know you and frustration have the same problem of starting theory as fact. And that’s what’s causes more problems I think