Allomancer vs Knight Radiant

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

I highly doubt that Cadmium would be affected by Shardplate. It might protect from the jarring sensation, but not the time dilation.

I doubt it plate would protect the radiant from time bubbles.  Neither the time dilation or the sick feeling of stepping through.   My curiosity is here:  Would the radiant instinctively burn through a portion of stormlight to overcome that.  They obviously can tell a difference when their body isn't perfect and the stormlight wants to correct that.  

It would be interesting if the plate were to protect the radiant from the time dilation but the plate itself was stuck in the changing time.  How horrifying to feel like the world is moving around you but you are practically paralyzed in your suit of magical armor.  

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I doubt it plate would protect the radiant from time bubbles.  Neither the time dilation or the sick feeling of stepping through.   My curiosity is here:  Would the radiant instinctively burn through a portion of stormlight to overcome that.  They obviously can tell a difference when their body isn't perfect and the stormlight wants to correct that.  

It would be interesting if the plate were to protect the radiant from the time dilation but the plate itself was stuck in the changing time.  How horrifying to feel like the world is moving around you but you are practically paralyzed in your suit of magical armor.  

There's nothing wrong with the body, so Stormlight wouldn't heal it. Even aluminum functions normally in speed bubbles.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Nameless

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

There's nothing wrong with the body, so Stormlight wouldn't heal it. Even aluminum functions normally in speed bubbles.

The vertigo and nausea caused by passing through a speed bubble would be disorienting at the least.  The reason I ask if stormlight may be used (even a little bit) is just based on the scene in BoM when the party goes through Marasi's cadmium bubble and that jolt plus them all feeling sick and disoriented.  I imagine if stormlight wouldn't be used to heal that then there is a very real opening made for the mistborn for that second or two where the radiant crosses into that bubble.  

Pulsing out cadmium bubbles plus a bendalloy bubble inside of it would allow time to appear to pass as normal from the outside as it does for the slider in the bendalloy while maintaining a space between the 2 bubbles that is slowed significantly for the mistborn to react and line up multiple coins / bullets to make sure the ones that are in the right line get an extra steel push as well.  All the while the radiant has 2 bubbles worth of that gut wrenching disorientation through the bubbles. 

Stormlight could negate that sick feeling side effect and likely help the radiant get their bearings back much more quickly but it requires using up so stormlight which could then open up the strategy for mistborn of slamming the radiant with time bubble after time bubble. 

A battle of attrition to be sure.  

But I think the time manipulation is generally looked past in mistborn strength and I think the surprise of crossing through those bubbles is way way under appreciated.   

We saw with Vasher vs Denth the value of just a small moment of shock.  That split second was worth throwing breaths away for Vasher.  There is a difference between sudden immobilizing euphoria and feeling like the wind just got taken out of you or a wave of extreme nausea.  But I believe a second is a second and when dealing with deadly arts a second could well be the difference between life and death.  

 

[Flaming Coinshot]

To my understanding, healing with any form of Investiture is repairing physical injury to what the soul was previously. The only time I've read of mental disorientation being fixed or lessened by Investiture was when a Tineye or Mistborn flared Tin to feel pain so that they could refocus, or when a Pewterarm steadied themselves. I don't think F-Gold counts because Wayne cleansing his drunkenness his body was cleansing a "poison." So Stormlight heals your body according to your Spiritweb, meaning that the Stormlight wouldn't heal that nausea. Like Tamriel said above, Vasher, who was far outclassed by Denth and facing a number of other disadvantages, killed Denth by giving him breath in the same way he killed Aresteel, who was even better than Denth. 

 

[cometaryorbit]

19 hours ago, therunner said:

I don't think so.

  Reveal hidden contents

Shardplate will continue to be used far into the future of Cosmere, even when they will come to conflict with Scadrial. (SotD 2). If it was that easily destroyed be Era 3 tech, it would not make sense.

 

[...]

plate seems to be weakest against high pressure concentrated attack (i.e. Bladed weapons, bullets) but grenades would not generate enough concentrated pressure to break a section. Typical modern day handgun generates around ~300 MPa of pressure, but hand grenade generates only ~268 kPa, making grenades ~1000 times weaker on this front. Based on that I think even modern grenades would not do much to Shardplate.

 

Spoiler

Shardplate might have been improved too- we see a Shard gun of some sort in that excerpt. So clearly spren have learned new tricks.

And in any case living Shardplate can probably be used as a non encumbering spacesuit/environment suit so would be very useful regardless of weapons.

I thought blunt force (eg warform Parshendi two-handed slings flinging rocks) was better vs plate, not bladed weapons (except through the eye slit of course).

Good point on concentrated force/pressure though. So a heavy rifle would probably be better than a grenade.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

23 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said:

To my understanding, healing with any form of Investiture is repairing physical injury to what the soul was previously. The only time I've read of mental disorientation being fixed or lessened by Investiture was when a Tineye or Mistborn flared Tin to feel pain so that they could refocus, or when a Pewterarm steadied themselves. I don't think F-Gold counts because Wayne cleansing his drunkenness his body was cleansing a "poison." So Stormlight heals your body according to your Spiritweb, meaning that the Stormlight wouldn't heal that nausea. Like Tamriel said above, Vasher, who was far outclassed by Denth and facing a number of other disadvantages, killed Denth by giving him breath in the same way he killed Aresteel, who was even better than Denth. 

 

Exactly.  That moment before you upchuck... the world starts spinning and your mouth is watering uncontrollably.  Fight through that... just keep pace with the magical being who is trying to stick a dagger through whatever hole they can while the world around you is spinning. 

F gold can get rid of illness too I imagine.  Does stormlight not work on anything but trauma?   If it doesn't help in this situation it is even better for the mistborn.  If it does get used to keep the radiant perfectly focused then it is a non chromium avenue of attacking the investiture levels directly from a safe distance given that cadmium bubbles are so much larger than bendalloy.  The bendalloy is your safe net to set up retreats and change directions to set up the cadmium.  

I have posted it before but still like the mental image in a large scale army vs army fight where cadmium bubbles are set up in the front lines.  You have a line of enemies cross the bubble and feel horrible on the other side.  Meanwhile the 2nd line and back are all charging forward and suddenly come crashing into their friends who seemingly stop moving in an instant.   Total train wreck for that army.  

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

12 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

 

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Shardplate might have been improved too- we see a Shard gun of some sort in that excerpt. So clearly spren have learned new tricks.

And in any case living Shardplate can probably be used as a non encumbering spacesuit/environment suit so would be very useful regardless of weapons.

I thought blunt force (eg warform Parshendi two-handed slings flinging rocks) was better vs plate, not bladed weapons (except through the eye slit of course).

Good point on concentrated force/pressure though. So a heavy rifle would probably be better than a grenade.

In this case I wonder how well plate would protect the squishy bits.   Its the barotrauma from the blast that is devastating from a grenade.  Sure you might end up with chunks of metal in you but those surface wounds aren't all that is happening.  Massive pneumothorax and busted ear drums... basically anything filled with air in your body gets rocked and hit even when there is no shrapnel hitting you directly. 

The concussive force is what is dangerous there.  Then again we are talking about magical plate.  Real world armor is protecting the squishy bits but the concussive force and barotrauma don't care about all the Kevlar you are wearing.  But this is magic armor we are talking about so who knows.  If the shardplate doesn't block the changes in airpressure then we are again faced with an option to force the radiant to burn some stormlight fixing themselves from the internal injuries that bypass simply beating on their surface until it breaks. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[cometaryorbit]

I think live plate might be able to protect against that sort of thing, possibly... but who knows.

--

A bit less than double speed with Stormlight plus a quarter lashing upward (half weight) suggests the Stormlight isn't doing that much for speed, since the halved weight should help a lot. So pewter is likely better on speed and strength- though Stormlight is ridiculously better at healing.

[therunner]

14 hours ago, Nameless said:

Yeah, I feel like this would likely lead to a draw, unless the Radiant lures the Mistborn in close and then activates the fabrial. Most Mistborn ain't stupid enough to run in and go fight a power-armored pseudo-deity while powerless. I would put suppressor fabrials in the same boat as surge fabrials, however, since they require a sentient spren.

Ah, my mistake, I thought suppressor fabrial don't need higher spren. I'd argue they are still not on level of Surge Fabrials, where spren form the full fabrial with only gemstones being separete, whereas suppresor seemed to have been the 'modern' kind. However, I was avoiding half-shards for this reason, and so I should also avoid suppresor.

If Mistborn knows about suppresor, then I agree they would avoid it, however at least 6 orders could catch up with them. If Mistborn does not know precise size of the effect, they could get caught off guard.

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Attractor Fabrials are more limited than you make them seem. The ones we see don't have very good range and can only be focused on specific types of materials, so maybe you could get it to attract all metals, from pretty closeby. Unless we've seen some more advanced models that I'm forgetting about.

Close combat would be very risky, but it could be done if the Mistborn had aluminum melee weapons. I'd give the Mistborn better odds than you did, maybe 6-7/10 for the Radiant, maybe less depending on how effective attractor Fabrials are.

Range could be boosted by size, as is typical for fabrials. Additionally, the one Navani uses in WoR chapter 82 to attract moisture from air has sufficient range to cover all the archers (unless there are multiple and I overlooked it). As long as the range is at least 50 feet, it can take steel vials away from Mistborn.

And you are correct on only attracting given substance. In that case taking away steel vials is the best option, closely followed by pewter to take away the edge. Considering this limitation, I would give 3rd Oath Radiants probably around 7/10, for the Orders without mobility even taking away steel will do a lot, and for the rest of Orders taking away pewter will shift balance of power considerably.

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It's possible that soothing/rioting wouldn't work as well, but I'm assuming a 'lot of breaths' to mean something like fifth heightening, which is likely much more investiture than the average Radiant has, given that a thousand breaths is enough to create a Shardblade, which is sort of approximately equal to a spren, maybe? Soothing or rioting a spren would be tough though.

Yeah, 'lot of breaths' is not exactly a precise measurement, not to mention we don't have standard unit of Investiture, so who knows how much Stormligth ~ breath? Vasher could probably tell us, but he is secretive one.

Well, thousands breaths on their own are not enough to create Shardblade, something else was involved in creation of Nightblood (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10871). And Azure's blade seems to be somewhat less sentient, but we have seen very little of it. So I think Type 4 BioChromatic entities are typically considerably less Invested then spren, outside of Nightblood who is somehow special and keeps getting more and more Invested over time.

On soothing/rioting spren we have only RAFO (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1722), but I would agree that due their nature as essentially living Investiture it would be tough.

BTW, while looking for WoBs on Nightblood, I found this one (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482/#e15334), so Shardblades could still be somewhat damaged by anti-Light daggers.

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In OB, when Sigzil was testing the abilities of Stormlight, Skar managed to run 'over a mile from the center of the market, then crossed the plateau and charged the ramp' in ten minutes without Stormlight. With Stormlight and a quarter lashing upwards to make himself lighter, Drehy managed to run that distance in under six minutes, which was the fastest time out of all bridge 4. a quick google tells me that the world record for a two-mile run (Which is probably longer than bridge 4 was running) is 7:58.61. Given that Drehy used a lashing to help instead of just relying on the Stormlight boost, I'd say that this lines up pretty well with Stormlight letting you sprint forever, something that normal humans can only do for about 20-30 seconds.

Thanks for the quote and quantification. I'd point out that Rosharan measurement are actually longer then our (and Scadrial equivalent), https://wob.coppermind.net/events/479/#e15384  . Not by much (if the example in WoB can be generalized, it is around 10%), but it would suggest that they are actually a bit faster then just sprinting if only a little.  Also, while the world record on two-mile run is on flat ground, with specialized track and shoes, Bridge 4 did it on uneven ground, with elevation changes and without any real equipment.

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It's not really necessary, given how OP normal compounding is. I was just bringing it up to defend the fully charged steel plate armor, which really isn't necessary. ten times speed for an hour or so will be more than enough, and won't require duraluminum compounding.

Fair enough. I'd say 10x the speed for an hour could still be quite a lot of stores, even for compounder. The more you push past the human body, the more Investiture you will need (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153-hal-con-2012/#e2803 ). I ran the numbers back in the previous thread, and if the loss gets progressively stronger, than to get 1 hour at 10x speed you would require something like ~1 million hours of stored full speed (or 2 million hours of storing 50% of speed). For compounder that is 'just' 6 cycles, however we don't know how fast those metals are burning, and you would need to burn a lot more than just flakes, and even those can last minutes. Conceivably it could still take days to build that up.

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Thanks. In that case, I would theorize that Kel used duraluminum compounding to fill them, increasing the 'pressure' of attribute and allowing him to force more trait in.

I don't think you can 'pressurize' it like that, but who knows. I have my own theory for why BoM behaves the way it does (shameless plug)

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Vindication isn't stronger than a shotgun, it's still a pistol. And a Mistborn can still boost their shots with A-steel. They don't need to break Plate in one shot, they only need a consistent way to damage it until they run the Radiant out of Stormlight.

 I was not saying it is stronger than a shotgun, just stronger than most similar guns of the time.  Even with consistently damaging the plate, it could still take hour for Radiant to run out of Stormlight, see Jasnah in RoW, where she was fighting quite long. Even if it only took half an hour, they need to consistently hit the Radiant and avoid nearly every single Radiants attacks (because Mistborn cannot take more than one good hit from 4th Oath Radiant), so I think Mistborn would die a lot sooner especially against Orders with mobility options.

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I've got another scenario to bring up:

Mistborn with allomantic grenades vs. Radiant with normal fabrials.

With allomancy grenades, a Mistborn can leech 3rd ideal Radiants from a distance and set up speedbubbles to slow them down. Moreover, charging the device with aluminum will allow for shutting down powers around the grenade:

Interesting set up. I would say that the best bet for Mistborn are chromium grenades, that would sap Radiant effectively. The speedbubbles would be only good as defensive option, as you could not shoot inside them, and aluminum bullets would pop them (and might still be a bit deflected), so you would get at best 1 free shot per 1 grenade. Though that could be enough. Minor question, how many of these would Mistborn carry?

Big question is how large is the area affected by the allomancy grenade, and what is the terrain. If the terrain is relatively open, at least some of the time you could dodge it most likely. For area of effect, I would say radius of 5-7-ish feet could be feasible, after all in AoL robbers freely use them in the train seemingly without worrying about themselves.

Best defense of Radiant would be suppresor if allowed, as it could completely cancel the grenades. The other option would be repeller fabrial, but that would require either knowing the composition of the grenade, or they have to be able to effect harmonium (which I doubt). If it worked, it would make them miss at least some of the time, depending on the radius of the grenade and on area of effect of the fabrial.

I'd say that Mistborn with these grenades could win ~7-8/10 against 3rd Oath, with Gravitation and Transportation orders being able to dodge effectively enough, even without fabrials. Suppressor (if allowed) would turn it back into 7/10 for Radiant, and the repeller (if working) could tip the scales closer towards parity I think, 5-6/10 for Mistborn.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

In this case I wonder how well plate would protect the squishy bits.   Its the barotrauma from the blast that is devastating from a grenade.  Sure you might end up with chunks of metal in you but those surface wounds aren't all that is happening.  Massive pneumothorax and busted ear drums... basically anything filled with air in your body gets rocked and hit even when there is no shrapnel hitting you directly. 

The concussive force is what is dangerous there.  Then again we are talking about magical plate.  Real world armor is protecting the squishy bits but the concussive force and barotrauma don't care about all the Kevlar you are wearing.  But this is magic armor we are talking about so who knows.  If the shardplate doesn't block the changes in airpressure then we are again faced with an option to force the radiant to burn some stormlight fixing themselves from the internal injuries that bypass simply beating on their surface until it breaks. 

Considering the Plate could be made air-tight (there are no gaps between the sections, and face-slit can be closed) there would be no barotrauma for the Radiant in Plate. And even if there was, Stormlight would heal that quickly enough, considering healing severed spine takes seconds.

[NameIess]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Range could be boosted by size, as is typical for fabrials. Additionally, the one Navani uses in WoR chapter 82 to attract moisture from air has sufficient range to cover all the archers (unless there are multiple and I overlooked it). As long as the range is at least 50 feet, it can take steel vials away from Mistborn.

There are multiple. Although Navani only sets up one, when she tells Dalinar that she's worried about moisture flooding into the pavillion, this is what she says:

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"And I don't know how well the fabrials will work; with the front of the pavillions open, humidity is going to flood in constantly. We might run out of Stormlight after just a short time." WoR ch. 82, p. 993

 

5 hours ago, therunner said:

And you are correct on only attracting given substance. In that case taking away steel vials is the best option, closely followed by pewter to take away the edge. Considering this limitation, I would give 3rd Oath Radiants probably around 7/10, for the Orders without mobility even taking away steel will do a lot, and for the rest of Orders taking away pewter will shift balance of power considerably.

While this would be useful for an unprepared Mistborn, a prepared Mistborn could counter attractors by either using aluminum vials or eating a few hours worth of metals before the fight. The second option would limit them in their duraluminum usage, but the first isn't something we've seen any Mistborn or Misting do, probably because aluminum's so dang expensive.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Well, thousands breaths on their own are not enough to create Shardblade, something else was involved in creation of Nightblood (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10871). And Azure's blade seems to be somewhat less sentient, but we have seen very little of it. So I think Type 4 BioChromatic entities are typically considerably less Invested then spren, outside of Nightblood who is somehow special and keeps getting more and more Invested over time.

I didn't get the impression that Azure's blade is less sentient, but I suppose it is a possibility. Regardless, it still functions as a Shardblade, if a bit of an odd one. So it's at least close. It's more invested than the Bands of Mourning, anyways.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

BTW, while looking for WoBs on Nightblood, I found this one (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482/#e15334), so Shardblades could still be somewhat damaged by anti-Light daggers.

'more resilient' almost certainly means 'immune' given what we've seen in the books, he just didn't want to confirm it. Raysium can channel anti-voidlight without harm (Navani even gets a good look at the Raysium in the dagger that she uses to kill Raboniel, when she takes it out and reverses it, so we can be pretty sure that it didn't decay visibly) and besides that, in order for Raysium to work properly you have to stab into something, an impossible feat against a Shardblade.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Fair enough. I'd say 10x the speed for an hour could still be quite a lot of stores, even for compounder. The more you push past the human body, the more Investiture you will need (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153-hal-con-2012/#e2803 ). I ran the numbers back in the previous thread, and if the loss gets progressively stronger, than to get 1 hour at 10x speed you would require something like ~1 million hours of stored full speed (or 2 million hours of storing 50% of speed). For compounder that is 'just' 6 cycles, however we don't know how fast those metals are burning, and you would need to burn a lot more than just flakes, and even those can last minutes. Conceivably it could still take days to build that up.

I don't know that we should take those numbers as binding. In any case, something like 5 or 6 times speed would work too, 10x is just a nice round number.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

 I was not saying it is stronger than a shotgun, just stronger than most similar guns of the time.  Even with consistently damaging the plate, it could still take hour for Radiant to run out of Stormlight, see Jasnah in RoW, where she was fighting quite long. Even if it only took half an hour, they need to consistently hit the Radiant and avoid nearly every single Radiants attacks (because Mistborn cannot take more than one good hit from 4th Oath Radiant), so I think Mistborn would die a lot sooner especially against Orders with mobility options.

Yes, I agree. Even with a shotgun, Mistborn's going to struggle a lot against a Radiant. Maybe they could do it with Atium. They'd need something like a 50 cal machine gun to get through Plate quickly. I will note that Jasnah probably didn't have to repair her Plate too much during the battle, just a few cracks here and there.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Interesting set up. I would say that the best bet for Mistborn are chromium grenades, that would sap Radiant effectively. The speedbubbles would be only good as defensive option, as you could not shoot inside them, and aluminum bullets would pop them (and might still be a bit deflected), so you would get at best 1 free shot per 1 grenade. Though that could be enough. Minor question, how many of these would Mistborn carry?

Do speedbubbles get popped by aluminum bullets? I know the WoB you're getting that from, but I could swear that the Vanishers in AoL shot aluminum into Wayne's speedbubble without collapsing it. Seems like a pretty good way to counter speedbubbles that neither Wax nor Wayne was worried about, in any case. I don't have access to AoL at the moment, so I can't check right now.

As for how many they could carry, I'd say maybe 3-5? They should be able to pull the grenades back to themselves with allomancy, so they can reuse them with a little effort.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Big question is how large is the area affected by the allomancy grenade, and what is the terrain. If the terrain is relatively open, at least some of the time you could dodge it most likely. For area of effect, I would say radius of 5-7-ish feet could be feasible, after all in AoL robbers freely use them in the train seemingly without worrying about themselves.

You mean in BoM?

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Best defense of Radiant would be suppresor if allowed, as it could completely cancel the grenades. The other option would be repeller fabrial, but that would require either knowing the composition of the grenade, or they have to be able to effect harmonium (which I doubt). If it worked, it would make them miss at least some of the time, depending on the radius of the grenade and on area of effect of the fabrial.

Actually, duraluminum might be able to counter a suppressor, as according to that WoB I quoted earlier:

Spoiler

Rodrigo

What would be the difference between an aluminum and a chromium grenade, and between nicrosil and duralumin grenades?

Brandon Sanderson

We're talking specifically about the Bands of Mourning ones?

*Matt affirms*

So, what would be the difference? Aluminum would create a sort of "You can't use Allomancy in this... nearby this" most likely, yeah. Duralumin would do the opposite. You would be able to use it and then enhance someone. I haven't played with the ranges on these things yet, and so that's where we get into kind of the question mark territory. Like, right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. Does that make sense?

But, my intent is to get to the point where it's doing things like this, right. Where you could theoretically be an Aluminum Gnat, you could charge this thing up and throw. And hey, you know, you have... the Metalborn nearby are unable to use their talents. That's convenient, right? Like, I want more of the powers to be relevant and these grenades are a way to do that.

You know, Marasi's power is not the most useful on the planet to have herself. For those who don't know, she can slow down time... well, speed up time? Awkward how... the phrasing of how you do that. But basically she can make a bubble around herself where everyone outside of it moves super fast. That's not terribly useful, right? Unless you want to age, you know, really slowly.

[...]

Not really useful in combat, to be able to be like "Yeah, I'm gonna make all my enemies move really, really fast and I can't respond to them". But, she can charge up one of those grenades and toss it, it becomes real handy. For her, the grenades are more useful than the inverse, right, because speeding up someone is useful, but slowing someone down takes someone out of the battle essentially. Or a whole globe of them... globe is the wrong term, but yeah.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

Durluminum would enhance powers in a radius, perhaps allowing for temporarily overcome the suppressor.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

I'd say that Mistborn with these grenades could win ~7-8/10 against 3rd Oath, with Gravitation and Transportation orders being able to dodge effectively enough, even without fabrials. Suppressor (if allowed) would turn it back into 7/10 for Radiant, and the repeller (if working) could tip the scales closer towards parity I think, 5-6/10 for Mistborn.

Yeah, this seems pretty good. I am interested in how the Fourth ideal would fair. I think it depends on how aluminum grenades, which apparently turn off powers around the cube, would interact with Shardplate. Although you could do some interesting things with cadmium.

[Frustration]

7 hours ago, therunner said:

Ah, my mistake, I thought suppressor fabrial don't need higher spren. I'd argue they are still not on level of Surge Fabrials, where spren form the full fabrial with only gemstones being separete, whereas suppresor seemed to have been the 'modern' kind. However, I was avoiding half-shards for this reason, and so I should also avoid suppresor.

The supressor fabrial is just like soulcasters, the spren is in the metal, not the gems.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

The supressor fabrial is just like soulcasters, the spren is in the metal, not the gems.

Well, the spren is in the Cognitive realm, as they can see it there. It's partially manifested as metal in the physical realm.

[therunner]

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

There are multiple. Although Navani only sets up one, when she tells Dalinar that she's worried about moisture flooding into the pavillion, this is what she says:

Thanks for that check. In that case we can say little of the range on those things.

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

While this would be useful for an unprepared Mistborn, a prepared Mistborn could counter attractors by either using aluminum vials or eating a few hours worth of metals before the fight. The second option would limit them in their duraluminum usage, but the first isn't something we've seen any Mistborn or Misting do, probably because aluminum's so dang expensive.

Well, yes, but the setup was Mistborn with a gun vs Radiant with fabrial, otherwise standard equipment and I guess rough general knowledge of abilities. Aluminum vials are not standard by any stretch of meaning, and swallowing hours worth of metal is also not 'usual'.

If we allow this type of preparation, Radiants would be carrying wooden shields at minimum, maybe aluminum hats to protect against emotional allomancy. (they know aluminum seems to block Investiture and connections, and they can get it via soulcasting).

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

I didn't get the impression that Azure's blade is less sentient, but I suppose it is a possibility. Regardless, it still functions as a Shardblade, if a bit of an odd one. So it's at least close. It's more invested than the Bands of Mourning, anyways.

I always had the impression that the blade is a bit 'lesser' on the Cognitive front compared to Nightblood and even regular Shardblades, but could be only my reading.

Though Azure herself calls the blade 'a pale imitation' of Shardblade, so while close to imitate some abilities it would definitely be less Invested.

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

'more resilient' almost certainly means 'immune' given what we've seen in the books, he just didn't want to confirm it. Raysium can channel anti-voidlight without harm (Navani even gets a good look at the Raysium in the dagger that she uses to kill Raboniel, when she takes it out and reverses it, so we can be pretty sure that it didn't decay visibly) and besides that, in order for Raysium to work properly you have to stab into something, an impossible feat against a Shardblade.

Maybe, maybe not. I think as long as the Raysium could bring the anti-light in contact with the Shardblade, it would hurt the spren even if it would not kill it outright. And there are specific reasons for why Raysium does not react (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482/#e15276), so it is not necessarily a general principle.

I think it makes sense to err on the side of caution when talking about life of a being whose soul is literally melding with yours, so I would expect Radiants to be more careful and to have backups.

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

I don't know that we should take those numbers as binding. In any case, something like 5 or 6 times speed would work too, 10x is just a nice round number.

Fair enough, I do think that even having 20 minutes of 5x fold speed should be enough to take down any Radiant below 3rd Oath, though some could run away. (F-steel won't help in air so Gravitation orders could go there, and Transportation orders can run away). Maaaybe Windrunners on 3rd Oath could win, as reverse lashing would be a good way to immobilize the steelrunner, but it would require good reflexes and skill.

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

Do speedbubbles get popped by aluminum bullets? I know the WoB you're getting that from, but I could swear that the Vanishers in AoL shot aluminum into Wayne's speedbubble without collapsing it. Seems like a pretty good way to counter speedbubbles that neither Wax nor Wayne was worried about, in any case. I don't have access to AoL at the moment, so I can't check right now.

As for how many they could carry, I'd say maybe 3-5? They should be able to pull the grenades back to themselves with allomancy, so they can reuse them with a little effort.

I think in AoL Wayne always drops the bubble before any bullet comes into contact with it, as even bullet passing inside would get reflected unpredictably, which would suck for the person inside. So it is possible that Wayne simply does not know that would happen. From external viewpoint Wayne typically puts it up for a second at most, so not much time to counter it, unless you know when and where it will happen.

Ok, 3-5 sounds reasonable.
I think at least against Willshapers and Stonewards, the recovery would not be so easy. They could use Cohesion to suck them inside the ground. Similarly Windrunners and Skybreakers could Lash them away. And all orders could try and use them themselves (if they knew basics of how it works).

And on the topic of range, when charged with Chromium Wax was almost right next to the grenade (other side of the door in train), so there we can't say much on range. Marasi's use seem to have been roughly similar to her own radius so about 8-ish feet. And the WoB you linked seems to suggest that the area of effect for local powers won't be that great (" , right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. "), but it could still change.

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

Actually, duraluminum might be able to counter a suppressor, as according to that WoB I quoted earlier:

  Hide contents

Rodrigo

What would be the difference between an aluminum and a chromium grenade, and between nicrosil and duralumin grenades?

Brandon Sanderson

We're talking specifically about the Bands of Mourning ones?

*Matt affirms*

So, what would be the difference? Aluminum would create a sort of "You can't use Allomancy in this... nearby this" most likely, yeah. Duralumin would do the opposite. You would be able to use it and then enhance someone. I haven't played with the ranges on these things yet, and so that's where we get into kind of the question mark territory. Like, right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. Does that make sense?

But, my intent is to get to the point where it's doing things like this, right. Where you could theoretically be an Aluminum Gnat, you could charge this thing up and throw. And hey, you know, you have... the Metalborn nearby are unable to use their talents. That's convenient, right? Like, I want more of the powers to be relevant and these grenades are a way to do that.

You know, Marasi's power is not the most useful on the planet to have herself. For those who don't know, she can slow down time... well, speed up time? Awkward how... the phrasing of how you do that. But basically she can make a bubble around herself where everyone outside of it moves super fast. That's not terribly useful, right? Unless you want to age, you know, really slowly.

[...]

Not really useful in combat, to be able to be like "Yeah, I'm gonna make all my enemies move really, really fast and I can't respond to them". But, she can charge up one of those grenades and toss it, it becomes real handy. For her, the grenades are more useful than the inverse, right, because speeding up someone is useful, but slowing someone down takes someone out of the battle essentially. Or a whole globe of them... globe is the wrong term, but yeah.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

Durluminum would enhance powers in a radius, perhaps allowing for temporarily overcome the suppressor.

I would expect the grenades to be blocked by the suppresor as well, after all they only replicate allomancy that was put into them, so they should be blocked as well.

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

You mean in BoM?

Indeed I do, thanks.

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

Yeah, this seems pretty good. I am interested in how the Fourth ideal would fair. I think it depends on how aluminum grenades, which apparently turn off powers around the cube, would interact with Shardplate. Although you could do some interesting things with cadmium.

I think it would block Plate and Blade from being summoned, if not present already, and of course preventing use of Surges. I wonder if it would also inhibit Stormlight enhanced healing.

Question is how long would the effect be, that would be decisive factor. And suppresor fabrials could be a hard counter to this.

 

Sidenote: I am a bit weirded out by that WoB, as it seems that sometimes the grenade replicates and externalizes allomantic/feruchemical power, but for some it does something completely different. In principle nicrosil and duralumin grenades should be exactly the same, and similarly for aluminum and chromium ones, yet they are not, for apparently no good reason. Very much looking forward to Lost Metal, hopefully we will know a bit more afterwards.

[NameIess]

5 minutes ago, therunner said:

Maybe, maybe not. I think as long as the Raysium could bring the anti-light in contact with the Shardblade, it would hurt the spren even if it would not kill it outright. And there are specific reasons for why Raysium does not react (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/482/#e15276), so it is not necessarily a general principle.

Raysium daggers only work once you get them inside the soul of something. With an indestructable Shardblade, that won't be possible. And the specific reasons for why Raysium doesn't react could just be: Solid Investiture isn't damaged by anti-light.

7 minutes ago, therunner said:

Fair enough, I do think that even having 20 minutes of 5x fold speed should be enough to take down any Radiant below 3rd Oath, though some could run away. (F-steel won't help in air so Gravitation orders could go there, and Transportation orders can run away). Maaaybe Windrunners on 3rd Oath could win, as reverse lashing would be a good way to immobilize the steelrunner, but it would require good reflexes and skill.

Reverse lashings require contact, so the Radiant can only pull the Mistborn towards them.

8 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think in AoL Wayne always drops the bubble before any bullet comes into contact with it, as even bullet passing inside would get reflected unpredictably, which would suck for the person inside. So it is possible that Wayne simply does not know that would happen. From external viewpoint Wayne typically puts it up for a second at most, so not much time to counter it, unless you know when and where it will happen.

Bullets do go through speed bubbles at some point. I think aluminum ones do.

9 minutes ago, therunner said:

Ok, 3-5 sounds reasonable.
I think at least against Willshapers and Stonewards, the recovery would not be so easy. They could use Cohesion to suck them inside the ground. Similarly Windrunners and Skybreakers could Lash them away. And all orders could try and use them themselves (if they knew basics of how it works).

It's possible that Radiant powers won't be able to charge Harmonium. But yeah, recovery probably won't work once the Radiant figures out what's going on.

11 minutes ago, therunner said:

And on the topic of range, when charged with Chromium Wax was almost right next to the grenade (other side of the door in train), so there we can't say much on range. Marasi's use seem to have been roughly similar to her own radius so about 8-ish feet. And the WoB you linked seems to suggest that the area of effect for local powers won't be that great (" , right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. "), but it could still change.

I took that to mean that Brandon hasn't settled on a specific area of effect for any of the powers besides those that already have a specific area of effect.

13 minutes ago, therunner said:

I would expect the grenades to be blocked by the suppresor as well, after all they only replicate allomancy that was put into them, so they should be blocked as well.

Probably, yeah. Similar to how the Fused's suppressors turned off Fabrials.

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

Question is how long would the effect be, that would be decisive factor. And suppresor fabrials could be a hard counter to this.

Suppressor Fabrials could be hard-countered by aluminum grenades too. Depends on how much charge they can hold, and which one's activated first.

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

Sidenote: I am a bit weirded out by that WoB, as it seems that sometimes the grenade replicates and externalizes allomantic/feruchemical power, but for some it does something completely different. In principle nicrosil and duralumin grenades should be exactly the same, and similarly for aluminum and chromium ones, yet they are not, for apparently no good reason. Very much looking forward to Lost Metal, hopefully we will know a bit more afterwards.

Yeah, hopefully BoM gives us lots more information on all of Scadrial's 'Fabrials' 

[Flaming Coinshot]

9 hours ago, therunner said:

Fair enough. I'd say 10x the speed for an hour could still be quite a lot of stores, even for compounder. The more you push past the human body, the more Investiture you will need (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153-hal-con-2012/#e2803 ). I ran the numbers back in the previous thread, and if the loss gets progressively stronger, than to get 1 hour at 10x speed you would require something like ~1 million hours of stored full speed (or 2 million hours of storing 50% of speed). For compounder that is 'just' 6 cycles, however we don't know how fast those metals are burning, and you would need to burn a lot more than just flakes, and even those can last minutes. Conceivably it could still take days to build that up.

Quote

For a compounder, 10x speed is nothing. They move so fast they might as well be teleporting. The Mistborn Adventure Game (Non-Cannonical, I know) measures Feruchemacy by charges. Compunders burn 1 charge and turn it into ten. A small metalmind stores 10 charges. If we were to use a system somewhat like that (Sazed and Wax said that Compounder drew 10x what they stored) then that means that by eating and burning a ring with steel stored in it, they would run with the equivalent of a steel bracer. The Coppermind says that a Steel Compounder could kill themselves by running to fast and dying to air resistance. 

Something I think that we're not considering is that Scadrial is centuries ahead of Roshar. The sole technological advancement that Roshar has that Scadrial doesn't is the Fabrial, which is half-magical anyways. And then we have the Southern Scadrians, who have powerful explosives and airships. And Aluminum refinement is kicking into high gear in Scadrial, meaning that it's not beyond believability that the Allomancer or Feruchemist has enough aluminum where they could block the Shardblades.

Also, Ettmetal. Brandon said that theoretically, using an Ettmetal bomb, you could replicate Surgebinding or something. These sort of advantages-the sneaky, annoying, clever person that seems to be the Scadrian archetype (Vin, Kelsier, Wax, Wayne, et cetera) has a good chance against the big, strong, honorable, straightforward Rosharan (Adolin, Kaladin, Dalinar, that Thaylen Prince) 

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said:

For a compounder, 10x speed is nothing. They move so fast they might as well be teleporting. The Mistborn Adventure Game (Non-Cannonical, I know) measures Feruchemacy by charges. Compunders burn 1 charge and turn it into ten. A small metalmind stores 10 charges. If we were to use a system somewhat like that (Sazed and Wax said that Compounder drew 10x what they stored) then that means that by eating and burning a ring with steel stored in it, they would run with the equivalent of a steel bracer. The Coppermind says that a Steel Compounder could kill themselves by running to fast and dying to air resistance. 

They never put a hard number to it.

5 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said:

Something I think that we're not considering is that Scadrial is centuries ahead of Roshar. The sole technological advancement that Roshar has that Scadrial doesn't is the Fabrial, which is half-magical anyways. And then we have the Southern Scadrians, who have powerful explosives and airships. And Aluminum refinement is kicking into high gear in Scadrial, meaning that it's not beyond believability that the Allomancer or Feruchemist has enough aluminum where they could block the Shardblades.

Scadrial is not ahead, and in many cases is far behind.

Just because Roshar doesn't have Scadrial's level of earth technology does not put them behind.

5 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said:

Also, Ettmetal. Brandon said that theoretically, using an Ettmetal bomb, you could replicate Surgebinding or something.

It's the grenades, and you have to already have surgebinding to do it.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Frustration

[Flaming Coinshot]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Scadrial is not ahead, and in many cases is far behind.

Just because Roshar doesn't have Scadrial's level of earth technology does not put them behind.

I would argue that point. The aerial advantage that Scadrial has with the airships against the bridge 1 is huge. But yes, I am counting that "century" in terms of earth technology, but Harmony hinted that they were supposed to have heavier-than-air flight and radio at this time. But this is a one-on-one fight, and I'm referring to Scadrian aluminum refining technologies and the allomantic grenade. 

Also, Wax and Sazed said "tenfold" when they were talking about compounding. But even without a hard number, the speed that a steel compounder has is incredible. 

[Frustration]

Just now, Flaming Coinshot said:

I would argue that point. The aerial advantage that Scadrial has with the airships against the bridge 1 is huge. But yes, I am counting that "century" in terms of earth technology, but Harmony hinted that they were supposed to have heavier-than-air flight and radio at this time. But this is a one-on-one fight, and I'm referring to Scadrian aluminum refining technologies and the allomantic grenade. 

Scadrian airships have the stability of wet tissue papper. A windrunner could down an entire fleet in a single confrontation.

Additionally AoL takes place after KoW, so by that time different sized conjoined gems, and the directional manipulation that Kal's glove had will make them the same speed ~25 mph.

And soulcasting is far better than any aluminum refining techniques Scadrial has.

[Flaming Coinshot]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Scadrian airships have the stability of wet tissue papper. A windrunner could down an entire fleet in a single confrontation.

Additionally AoL takes place after KoW, so by that time different sized conjoined gems, and the directional manipulation that Kal's glove had will make them the same speed ~25 mph.

And soulcasting is far better than any aluminum refining techniques Scadrial has.

They're literally getting their aluminum from the sky. (Roshar)

If they wanted to, the entire crew could pour water on their engine and the Windrunner's dead. 

And I know this is. very theoretical, but Harmony said they should have the radio at this point. And they have pre-dreadnaught warships. Meaning that they'd have the technology that accompanied it, meaning that they have machine guns, they'll get heavy ordnance soon, and with that, rifles with better reloading time, stronger sidearms, and most importantly, even better Bauxtite refining techniques meaning that they have better guns and more aluminum. Now, earlier, someone mentioned that plate is weakened by high pressure attacks. The guns they had in this era were fairly strong, meaning that if you had someone with good aim (a tineye, maybe?) then you could put a bunch of rounds through a Radiant. 

[therunner]

32 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Raysium daggers only work once you get them inside the soul of something. With an indestructable Shardblade, that won't be possible. And the specific reasons for why Raysium doesn't react could just be: Solid Investiture isn't damaged by anti-light.

Shardblade is technically the soul of the spren in physical form, so it could count for Raysium?

And true enough that the reason could be that simple, however with how gamechaning anti-Light is, and Brandon's evasiveness, I think there will be more to it. Agree to disagree.

32 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Reverse lashings require contact, so the Radiant can only pull the Mistborn towards them.

Heh, true enough did not think it through

Though it would give a nice (if suicidal) tactic if you had Windrunner and another Radiant against F-steel user.

32 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Bullets do go through speed bubbles at some point. I think aluminum ones do.

I could swear that the only instance of bullets going through is Wax shooting from the inside out, and that is regular bullets. Later today I will have time to look through the book, so I will check.

32 minutes ago, Nameless said:

It's possible that Radiant powers won't be able to charge Harmonium. But yeah, recovery probably won't work once the Radiant figures out what's going on.

It should be possible (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498/#e15665), but they would not know what exactly it will do so it could backfire spectacularly. Removing them from battlefield would be safer option for them, if possible.

32 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I took that to mean that Brandon hasn't settled on a specific area of effect for any of the powers besides those that already have a specific area of effect.

Ah, that would make sense. I'm afraid my brain is sometimes overly literal.

32 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Probably, yeah. Similar to how the Fused's suppressors turned off Fabrials.

Suppressor Fabrials could be hard-countered by aluminum grenades too. Depends on how much charge they can hold, and which one's activated first.

Indeed, that was my reasoning.
While I agree that aluminum (and chromium) grenades would hard counter suppressor fabrials, the grenades are 'one-and-done' and the effect is seemingly not that long. The fabrial has advantage in that it can be run for much longer, though it depends on how much Stormlight does the user have available. And even if it would be temporarily unusable, if it was aluminum grenade it could be turned off the second the effect wears of.

Still, you can turn the fabrial on as you see something flying towards you, and it is as simple as flipping a switch, so I think suppresor fabrial is superior in this regards.

32 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yeah, hopefully BoM gives us lots more information on all of Scadrial's 'Fabrials' 

I presume you meant The Lost Metal here?

16 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said:

I would argue that point. The aerial advantage that Scadrial has with the airships against the bridge 1 is huge. But yes, I am counting that "century" in terms of earth technology, but Harmony hinted that they were supposed to have heavier-than-air flight and radio at this time. But this is a one-on-one fight, and I'm referring to Scadrian aluminum refining technologies and the allomantic grenade.

Eh, Windrunners and Skybreakers in Shardplate are far beyond anything Scadrial has. Plus Bridge 1 is ~10-ish years out of date by the time of AoL, and they went from raising platforms to a freaking airship in year and a half, 10 years on they will have much more interesting stuff I am sure.

And while Roshar is behind when it comes to mining, metallurgy, electricity and other earth sciences, they are ahead on medicine, warfare, and Realmatic theory. They are even theorizing along the lines of quantum theory already!

And while manufacture and mining are far ahead on Scadrial, Roshar can obtain what they need directly via Soulcasting which is far faster and cheaper (at the moment).

Quote

They're literally getting their aluminum from the sky. (Roshar)

And can also get it via soulcasting.

Quote

If they wanted to, the entire crew could pour water on their engine and the Windrunner's dead. 

Or the Windrunner chucks a stone at several multiples of terminal velocity at the ship and calls it a day.

Quote

And I know this is. very theoretical, but Harmony said they should have the radio at this point. And they have pre-dreadnaught warships. Meaning that they'd have the technology that accompanied it, meaning that they have machine guns, they'll get heavy ordnance soon, and with that, rifles with better reloading time, stronger sidearms, and most importantly, even better Bauxtite refining techniques meaning that they have better guns and more aluminum. Now, earlier, someone mentioned that plate is weakened by high pressure attacks. The guns they had in this era were fairly strong, meaning that if you had someone with good aim (a tineye, maybe?) then you could put a bunch of rounds through a Radiant. 

Harmony said they should have it, and they don't. They do have some basic machine guns, which are not that accurate for a fight like this and could be countered by a simple attractor/repeller fabrial (unless you spend a fortune on hundreds of aluminum bullets).

And regarding stronger handguns, even the strongest handgun on Scadrial, when enhanced by a Steelpush with weight of F-Iron behind it, would still typically take 2-3 shots to break one section of plate.

Which is besides the point, as the thread is Allomancer vs Knight Radiant, not Roshar vs Scadrial.

Edited July 8, 2022 by therunner

[Flaming Coinshot]

Just now, therunner said:

And while manufacture and mining are far ahead on Scadrial, Roshar can obtain what they need directly via Soulcasting which is far faster and cheaper (at the moment).

I'm telling you, they don't soulcast aluminum. And I'd agree with you on the Realmatic Theory and Medicine for Roshar, but warfare? Really? Ettmetal, Dreadnaughts, and the like can "easily" take down Radiants. And it's not that big of a jump from airships to fighters, which would rip apart the flying stuff that Roshar has. (Although, admittedly, Windrunners and Skybreakers are pretty good and you'd need something Korean War era before you could reliably take them and win in a fight. Maybe Metalborn pilots?) Also, can you give me an example of when they're theorizing on quantum theory?

[therunner]

26 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said:

I'm telling you, they don't soulcast aluminum. And I'd agree with you on the Realmatic Theory and Medicine for Roshar, but warfare? Really? Ettmetal, Dreadnaughts, and the like can "easily" take down Radiants. And it's not that big of a jump from airships to fighters, which would rip apart the flying stuff that Roshar has. (Although, admittedly, Windrunners and Skybreakers are pretty good and you'd need something Korean War era before you could reliably take them and win in a fight. Maybe Metalborn pilots?)

They can (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8306) and it is most likely how Fused get it in the quantities necessary. Up until now Roshar did not have much use of it, as they have similar magic resisting metal (Shardblades and Shardplates made of Godmetals) which have superior physical properties.

And yes, Roshar has much more knowledge of Warfare than Scadrial, Scadrial had a single at best two wars in the last ~1000 years, those being succession war after death of Rashek (which was mostly a bunch of skirmishes than a proper war) and then war against Ruin and his Koloss, which Scadrians technically lost, and they survived only thanks to Atium hold and ascension of Sazed, neither of which were planned by them. Edit: So while Scadrial might have on-paper somewhat stronger technology (cannons, dreadnaughts) they have no clue how to actually wage war with those, since they never did.

By contrast Roshar has regular wars of conquest, and survived multiple wars that literally ended with participants back in the stone age. Alethi have warfare as national pride of honor. Single Skybreaker in Plate could tear apart the entire Dreadnaught, Single Elsecaller could turn it into dust.

And they are still far from fighters, what Southerners have is closer to zeppellins than airplanes. They don't yet have any theory of non-magical flight. And don't forget that while Scadrial develops to fighters, Roshar is not standing still.

 

Quote

Also, can you give me an example of when they're theorizing on quantum theory?

Sure, couple of ardents observing flamespren (Way of Kings Interlude I-8 ) notice that measuring them seems to force them to stick in that form, and until then they shift in size.
Immediately they verify that it takes actual measurement, not merely an expectation (i.e. it is not human Cognitive aspect doing this), and then starts to theoretize on effects of measurement precision, if less precision would let spren continue to shift a little.

This is effectively observing wave-function collapse, and theorizing the position-momentum commutation relation from it, which is roughly mid-1920s physics.

Edited July 8, 2022 by therunner
forgot to link WoB

[Flaming Coinshot]

Oh yeah, you're definitely right about war in that aspect. Roshar has the philosophy, development, and strategy of the greatest militaries in our own history. But it doesn't take a genius to drop high-powered explosives, or to fire some cannons. I mean, modern war strategy is a contest of who can shoot the most explosives from the farthest away. I think that Scadrial will progress at the same rate as Roshar, but they're already further along and they have a (semi) unified government. And they haven't even fully explored the minimum of their potentional. So when all these books crossover, I think Scadrial and Roshar will probably be very powerful in Cosmere terms, the more Traditional Science guys and the Magical Science guys. 

And thanks for the example, I'm not exactly well-versed in that particular field of science and I didn't realize it for what it was. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Flaming Coinshot

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Flaming Coinshot said:

If they wanted to, the entire crew could pour water on their engine and the Windrunner's dead. 

That's litterally suicide, and it won't work. With as far away from the blast as they are, the Scadrians would be lucky to cause the Windrunner mild annoyance.

52 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said:

Ettmetal, Dreadnaughts, and the like can "easily" take down Radiants. And it's not that big of a jump from airships to fighters, which would rip apart the flying stuff that Roshar has.

Scadrian airships would get blown to pieces by the recoil of any gun of sufficent caliber to harm a Rosharan airship.

Just now, Flaming Coinshot said:

Oh yeah, you're definitely right about war in that aspect. Roshar has the philosophy, development, and strategy of the greatest nations on our world. But it doesn't take a genius to drop high-powered explosives, or to fire some cannons. 

Actually it does. European armies stood in formation and took turns shooting at each other until WW1.

Looking back we can see that it was a stupid idea, but to them it was the most effective way to engage in combat.

56 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshot said:

And it's not that big of a jump from airships to fighters, which would rip apart the flying stuff that Roshar has.

A single human not storing weight would cause their entire ship to collapse, they can't carry heavy weapons.

[Lego Mistborn]

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Actually it does. European armies stood in formation and took turns shooting at each other until WW1.

And even then, all they really did different was jump in a hole to do it.

However, I really think that the purpose of this thread is not to determine whether or not a Scadrial army or a Roshar army would win, but whether a radiant would beat a mistborn in a fight or vice versa.

My opinion is that in the end, radiants and mistborn would generally be an even match for each other, just based on the direction the Cosmere is going. How that is, I'm not sure because radiants really seem much stronger than metalborn, except maybe with extreme combinations of powers.