Allomancer vs Knight Radiant

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

Source? 
you know you and frustration have the same problem of starting theory as fact. And that’s what’s causes more problems I think

Not a theory. The WoB's been used multiple times in this thread:

Quote

BasakaIsTheStrongest

Does Shardplate provide protection against emotional Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Don't dismiss your helmet when you're around an Allomancer.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

And I've already had a debate about whether or not Plate is always summoned (It's not).

[Rg2045]

12 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Not a theory. The WoB's been used multiple times in this thread:

And I've already had a debate about whether or not Plate is always summoned (It's not).

Fair enough but my earlier observation still stands I think 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So this says that the stormlight in the spheres would be virtually impossible to drain.  I can see that.  As for the spren themselves... no longer targeting stormlight or a radiant at all.  How do you kill a spren?  How do you damage a spren?  

(Please forgive me in this.  I am only on chapter 20 of Oathbringer so a lot of what I go off of is forum and wiki info and WoB I have read).  I had this post up about leechers and their own investiture.  Leechers and their own investiture - Cosmere Discussion - 17th Shard, the Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite

In one of the responses it talked about a spren being stabbed with a shardblade and not dying but reappearing elsewhere later.  So I take it in my future readings I shall read about Kaladin attacking a spren.  Why then is it futile to attack a spren in the form of living plate?  

It isnt a difference between innate vs a more physical investiture because biochomatic breath can be leeched away just as stormlight can.  Metals are only a key to the investiture being used so the fact that it burns the metals even when not actively being used says it works on a different principle than duralumin too in that chromium knows what has that potential for investiture usage as well no?  So why cant it just straight up drain a spren?  And if it can drain a spren what would happen to that spren?  Would it turn the living plate into dead plate if only temporary?  Would that spren try to resist and heal itself via taking the stormlight from the spheres under it?  

Or is the only way to kill and hurt a spren by bashing it with weapons?  Kind of weird that chromium cant hurt a spren since all dead shards came from the simple act of abandoning oaths.  Breaking a promise is more dangerous to spren than a leecher draining all of the investiture that makes them... them?

I wouldn't imagine leeching having any affect on spren. Esecially the ones summoned.

15 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

Source? 
you know you and frustration have the same problem of starting theory as fact. And that’s what’s causes more problems I think

We know a lot more than you seem to assume. I'd say anything either of us says is either confirmed, or so heavily hinted towards it's a fair bet.

Now I don't mind you asking for sources, it's good not just for you but for us, but you seem to have a lower opinion of us than I think is fair.

[Rg2045]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

 

We know a lot more than you seem to assume. I'd say anything either of us says is either confirmed, or so heavily hinted towards it's a fair bet.

Now I don't mind you asking for sources, it's good not just for you but for us, but you seem to have a lower opinion of us than I think is fair.

I know you both know more then me, however I’m only saying what I saw not as an insult, but as an observation. I don’t have a low opinion of either of y’all. In fact I respect both of y’all’s opinions greatly otherwise I wouldn’t go through the trouble of even making this post. 
so I do apologize if I made either you feel insulted. It definitely wasn’t my intention.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Rg2045 said:

I know you both know more then me, however I’m only saying what I saw not as an insult, but as an observation. I don’t have a low opinion of either of y’all. In fact I respect both of y’all’s opinions greatly otherwise I wouldn’t go through the trouble of even making this post. 
so I do apologize if I made either you feel insulted. It definitely wasn’t my intention.

No harm done.

Sorry if I seemed a little condesending there.

[NameIess]

32 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We know a lot more than you seem to assume. I'd say anything either of us says is either confirmed, or so heavily hinted towards it's a fair bet.

Maaaaaybe? Sometimes? Definitely not always. I still make mistakes all the time.

19 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

I know you both know more then me, however I’m only saying what I saw not as an insult, but as an observation. I don’t have a low opinion of either of y’all. In fact I respect both of y’all’s opinions greatly otherwise I wouldn’t go through the trouble of even making this post. 
so I do apologize if I made either you feel insulted. It definitely wasn’t my intention.

I'm not offended. Feel free to call me out for not sourcing my stuff any time. I'll either have some source that'll take me a few minutes to find (or, you know, I'll dig through Arcanum for a really long time before finally finding that one WoB I half-remember reading a few months ago) or I will realize that I'm just making stuff up or misremembering a WoB/quote from the books.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Nameless

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

Maaaaaybe? Sometimes? Definitely not always. I still make mistakes all the time.

You're really good. Mistakes are made yes, but in general I find you tend to be even better than I am at not overstating your sources.

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

(or, you know, I'll dig through Arcanum for a really long time before finally finding that one WoB I half-remember reading a few months ago)

The number of times I have spent half an hour digging through the Arcanum for a WoB I KNOW exists but can't find I cannot express.

[therunner]

So finishing up the comparison of Mistborn + gun (no Atium) vs Radiant with fabrial (only one at a time, no surge fabrials), so lets call it Era 2 Loadout. No sneak attacks (those don't really judge who is 'stronger', Elsecaller could kill surprised Fullborn but Fullborn is definitely stronger), no insanely long prep time (i.e. months).
 

1. If Radiant can get their hands on suppersor that works on Mistborn, Radiant wins majority of time.
   1. Mistborn has no defense there (maybe a coppercloud? but those can be pierced, and duralumin cage could be used to boost the fabrial, if the analogous functions of metals hold up). In this situation Mistborn can only hope to kill Radiant from a distance, and even against lower orders that could get difficult, as they either have mobility options (Gravitation, Teleportation, Abrasion) or improved healing/defense (Progression, Cohesion, Tension).
   2. If the Radiant order has long distance attack option (Gravitation, Soulcasting + elsecalling, Division?) they will most likely win this. If not, they need to have mobility option to reach Mistborn.
   3. In other situations Mistborn cannot kill the Radiant, but the Radiant cannot reach Mistborn, so a draw.
2. Radiant has attractor fabrial, which they could use to steal vials of metal from Mistborn (not gun, assuming it is aluminum and bullets are also aluminum). Here the outcome would depend on how much metal Mistborn already has inside of them.
   1. Against 4th Oath and above Mistborn loses, as they lack the offensive option (without vials they can do only one duralumin push) to get quickly through Plate, and they will run out sooner then the Radiant (higher Oath = better efficiency, and plate captures some of the run off from skin).
   2. Against 3rd Oath, orders with better mobility win (so 6/10), the rest has to survive long enough for Mistborn to run out of Steel so they can get close enough for the kill. I think Stonewards would have good shot at that with their defensive options, Lightweavers+Truthwatchers could hide/confuse Mistborn with enough Illusion (sure, they can detect them with bronze, but they still see them), and Bondsmith could survive if they could open Perpendicularity/renew their light. I'd give it to Radiant 7-8/10. Approaching for close combat would be very risky to Mistborn due to Shardblade.
   3. Against 2nd Oath, I think Mistborn would still win more often than not, but Gravitation orders could get in a win, and so could Elsecallers, if fast enough. More proficient Stonewards maybe too.  2-3/10
3. Radiant has painrials.
   1. 4th oath and above. Lucky Mistborn could win against Orders with worse mobility (repeated duralumin pushes) as they could last long enough to maybe crack a plate. 9.5/10 Painrial really does not make much difference here.
   2. 3rd Oath. Painrial could be used to counter Mistborn attempting leeching, but there is a chance that Painrial would get leeched too. As long as Painrial can be applied to Mistborn, it will incapacitate them, but they would have to get around Shardblade first. Safer option against non-mobility orders is to maintain distance and use duralumin pushes and guns. I'd give it to Radiant 6-7/10.
   3. 2nd Oath, I could see maybe a very skilled Windrunner winning, but they would have to be really skilled. Use reverse lashing to make everything but aluminum bullets a miss, hope that Mistborn will not get a good hit in with a gun, and then use reverse lashing to limit mobility of Mistborn to go in for the kill. But that is very specific, so 0.1/10 for Radiant.

For 3rd Oath and below there is a question of how effective would Soothing and Rioting be, considering Radiant is already quite invested when having Stormlight in the system. Lifeless are more effected (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/395/#e13062), those with a lot of Breath are less effected (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10895). So possibly this helps Radiant of 3rd Oath and below to be less thrown of balance.

I'd also remind people that emotional allomancy is not mind control, so making someone in a fight completely passive so you can just go up to them and stab them is not gonna happen (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e9038). Push them strongly in the opposite of what would be natural, and you will get backlash (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/189/#e9004). However, duraluming enhanced emotion blasts would be disorienting, so they would help.

16 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Perfecting what is there is different than improving.  There is no magical 600lb dude or 5 year old who becomes Bruce Lee after breathing in stormlight.  It works so well for Kal because he was a soldier already.  Where as pewter does add more to what was there.  Neither of them teach you how to fight or move but there is a difference in that pewter gives you what wasn't there and stormlight perfects what was.  In Vin and Ham discussing it with each other pewter actually did more for Vin because she started with less.  Stormlight isn't turning you into something you aren't where pewter is.  Stormlight just makes you never get tired and heals all of your wounds as they happen granting you the ability to ignore any negative sideeffects to what may comeup in a fight.  Imagine being able to lift your max ripping and tearing your muscle fibers but they all heal as it is happening.  You are going to feel stronger but it is still only your natural limits.  Pewter actually changes those limits themselves. 

15 hours ago, Nameless said:

Stormlight does not enhance skills such as balance, it takes you to your peak level of fitness indefinitely. 'Thug' has always been a misnomer. Basically every time we see a Pewterarm, it's noted that they move with 'pewter enhanced grace' or something similar. When explaining how to burn pewter effectively, Ham explicitly mentions burning pewter when he stumbles to give himself an instant sense of balance. Radiants never mention taking in Stormlight to give themselves an extra sense of balance.

Pewter mainly changes the strength, which it roughly doubles (but considering example of Vin, there is some level of boost independent of the strength of user). For the rest, it gives a sense of balance and it improves your speed somewhat + mildly better healing and durability.

So yeah, they will be a bit better on agility and on speed, but how far outside of human limit is it? Allomancers only compare against regular people, not perfected people who are at the limit of their abilities.  I do think pewter will give slight edge in this, just that the edge in non-strength abilities is slight enough to be neglected most of the time.

For what it is worth, Coppermind says this on Stormligth " Stormlight also greatly increases the physical capabilities of the Surgebinder, who gains superhuman strength, speed, endurance, stamina, and healing of both body and soul. ", but it does not source this, and I have only physical books which are not easily searchable. If someone could look through books, or knows why coppermind says this I would be grateful

Quote

It does not take millennia of skill to casually walk up to a Radiant from behind while soothing their caution, then stab them in the neck from behind and start leeching.

 Except being Invested should make Radiant at least somewhat more difficult to soothe, and soothing nor rioting are not mind control. If they are in a fight, Mistborn would not be able to do that.

Quote

Yeah. But I'm not arguing that a Radiant will take forever to learn to use their powers. We're using Fourth ideal Radiants here. I'm arguing that it would take a long time for a Radiant to learn to use a Surge fabrial.

Ah, I misunderstood you then. I think it would be more difficult to learn then using their own Surges, but not extremely so.

Quote

Duraluminum compounding will work extremely quickly, and shouldn't be a problem.

Using duralumin while compounding is extremely risky and difficult to control, as I mentioned before (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901), so not sure they could pull it off.

Quote

And where are you getting Miles not having metalminds that were that full?

Wax describes BoM as the fullest metalmind he has ever seen, hence they are fuller then Miles'.

 

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Well we know from WoB that plate would protect well against bullets, but Wax using Vindication could break Plate with two shots, arguably maybe one shot in absolutely ideal conditions (which probably includes Steelpushing the bullet for extra force).

Combined I think those WoBs actually give fairly strict limits- it's very effective against normal personal scale Era 2 firearms fired by normal users (a normal person would have real trouble hitting the exact cracked spot again, though Wax could do it) but once you boost that force to Vindication + steelpush levels it becomes potentially vulnerable.

So a .22 would be useless but a grenade or any significant explosive would break right through, and a high powered sniper rifle (maybe not with Era 2 tech but once we get to mid-late 20th century*) might do it with one shot.

* Era 2 firearms might actually be a bit behind their usual ~1910 equivalent level since Northern Scadrial hasn't had any regular wars since the Catacendre (being a single nation the whole time), though I think they had fights with koloss tribes .

I don't think so.

Spoiler

Shardplate will continue to be used far into the future of Cosmere, even when they will come to conflict with Scadrial. (SotD 2). If it was that easily destroyed be Era 3 tech, it would not make sense.

That WoB on 2-3 bullets is only Wax (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/385/#e12595) under regular circumstances, however that is Vindication, which is stronger then most Era 2 guns, it is Wax who can further boost the shot with A-Steel and he can tap F-Iron to put more leverage behind that push.

I also think explosives would be far worse against Shardplate, plate seems to be weakest against high pressure concentrated attack (i.e. Bladed weapons, bullets) but grenades would not generate enough concentrated pressure to break a section. Typical modern day handgun generates around ~300 MPa of pressure, but hand grenade generates only ~268 kPa, making grenades ~1000 times weaker on this front. Based on that I think even modern grenades would not do much to Shardplate.

Edited July 7, 2022 by therunner

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Using duralumin while compounding is extremely risky and difficult to control, as I mentioned before (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901), so not sure they could pull it off.

Not only that but AoL page 218 says that it's dangerous to stop compounding.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Frustration

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not only that but AoL page 218 says that it's dnagerous to stop compounding.

The compounding we definately agree on.  When I think of titrating a patient on medications or lifesupport you have to make smaller changes because large changes can be absolutely devastating to their systems.  

Likewise imagine compounding a ton of health you are storing massive amounts of it and still feel on top of the world.  But how much are you truly storing?   If it is more than what you need to stay alive and a leecher were to touch you wiping your compounding material while you were storing that much wouldn't it put you in a spot where you basically are committing suicide with the amount of storage going on?  

Compounding is definately dangerous in the moments that you are actively storing massive amounts of your attribute.  

I believe it is less dangerous when you are just drawing from it.   I have no idea if there is a WOB on this but I have wondered if bleeder ever truly used F steel in the books or if she always has A steel but was burning steel metalminds that were charged and she had the identity to do so.  Reasons I think this are mostly that her speed usage suggests a compounder but her spike totals make that difficult.  She could have set up a way to drop the spikes or move her bindpoints to change I guess but in my brain for compounding I think the dangers are more in the storing huge amounts. 

Duralumin would give you a massive boost of attribute to store, but if you get caught storing 100x your health for a second too long past when that chunk of metal is gone you were burning you are gonna be at a deficit that leaves you 100x more dead than you were before.  

Duralumin fueled compounding is also dangerous for folks around you.  Some of the metals if you were just burning a metalmind and you spiked it with duralumin could be devastating to the surrounding area no?   If a human suddenly became a few million lbs I assume that could be a dangerous thing.   

I don't know that the bands had every single feruchemical power inside of them totally full or even at all.  Marasie describes her tapping as her just pulling everything out of it she could.  Interesting that she didn't break a hole in the floor or burn off all of her clothes or have a total identity crisis and think she was Kel.  She didn't make everyone in the area want to worship her and she didn't turn into such a hulking monster that she couldn't move.  She either didn't tap everything at once and knew exactly which metals she needed to access or the bands were not what we all seem to think they were.  

[Flaming Coinshot]

Honestly, I think that Feruchemists and Fullborn have the best chance, with Mistborn having a conditional win. 

Let's think about it: Like it's been said earlier, a Feruchemists chance hinges on F-Steel, with F-Gold healing even Shardblade wounds*. For them, they need to win fast, meaning they get stupidly big and strong and can hit hard with F-Iron. However, if the Radiant is 3rd Ideal or higher, and if they are Stonewards, have access to Gravitation or Abrasion, or have Transportation, it will be very, very hard for the Feruchemist to win. Against Orders that don't have one of these, they have a chance. The fact that is that even with F-Gold, they need a lot of it and F-Steel and F-Pewter and F-Iron, so they need to win fast and make sure they hit a bunch without them getting hit a bunch. 

Mistborn: Their win hinges on usage of steel and iron to fly around and retreat from their enemy, using ranged tactics-something Radiants don't often have access to. Against Gravitation-Users, this advantage is weakened but a Mistborn generally has more control closer to the ground then a Flyer with Lashings. And the Mistborn's biggest advantage: no matter the ideal of a Radiant, unless they're a stupidly good fighter (Vin's level, Kaladin fights like an incredibly good soldier, she fights like a demon), Atium will trump almost all advantages. Death by a thousand cuts style, but the Radiant only needs one good hit. So, for a Mistborn, it depends on skill and Atium whereas the Radiant needs skill and it gets easier if they have access to Gravitation or Abrasion. 

Fullborn: Game over. Compunding gold means that nothing that the Radiants does can hurt them, and Compunding Pewter means that they can literally punch through the Radiants armor. If they can find a nice sturdy wall or rock or something, they can push a coin onto it, then push off the rock, compound steel, iron, and pewter and you'll have a horizontal meteor that can change direction easily. A Fullborn is one step below a god, able to match the God-King in combat. 

Speaking of which, let's talk about the God-King briefly. The God-King has the Tenth awakening, and the big factors in a fight are: Functional Immmortality, Instinctive Awakening, Greater Awakening, Audible Command, and Mental Command, all of which would allow the God King to awaken a Aluminum Monstrosity that could rip the Radiant to shreds while the God-King could tie up the Radiant. 

TL;DR: Feruchemists rely on reserved Strength, Weight, Speed, and Healing, Mistborn rely on skill and Atium, the Radiant will need every scrap of skill, luck, and Stormlight they can manage and will still most likely lose, the God King also has a good chance via awakening aluminum constructs with bones or stone or metal or something in them. 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

19 minutes ago, Flaming Coinshoot said:

Speaking of which, let's talk about the God-King briefly. The God-King has the Tenth awakening, and the big factors in a fight are: Functional Immmortality, Instinctive Awakening, Greater Awakening, Audible Command, and Mental Command, all of which would allow the God King to awaken a Aluminum Monstrosity that could rip the Radiant to shreds while the God-King could tie up the Radiant. 

Yes.  The godking.  My favorite of the magics.  Sadly there is no shardblade healing in this kit that we know of and we have seen a simple dagger kill off a returned with little issue.  

But hulking aluminum monsters fighting for you and the ability to command a shield wall from these monsters is beyond epic.  You are so invested you can't be soulcast.   

Even if aluminum encased bones would be impossible to use you can awaken the stone at that point and even the stone will be invested enough to resist a shardblade for a while... 

Plus ranged attacks that can strangle a person or crush them to death...

I have asked a few times with no response how strong awakened ropes and cloth are... what does the biochromatic breath do to the tensile strength of the material you are awakening?   We see awakened arm wraps toss humans around like rag dolls.  Would shardplate weigh too much for this or does the investiture simply not recognize weight?   Would it need to be a special cloth to toss a shardbearer?  

The godking is by far the most epic player next to TLR and if TLR didn't have access to steel I think godking even takes that fight.  You want to kill me??  Survive my gauntlet of hulking awakened golems and ribbons worth of crushing arms.  

 

[Flaming Coinshot]

I think that because they're highly invested, they'd be harder to break with invested weapons like the Shardblade. However, Adolin, a rather strong guy, is restrained and wrapped up by Vasher using awakened cloth. So Greater Awakening would allow the God King to create Golems with Aluminum, Steel, and Bone and using Cloth to restrain an enemy. The Steel and Bone is nessacary because I think that due to the nature of Aluminum-a counter to almost all known magic systems- it wouldn't be Awakenable. 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Flaming Coinshoot

[NameIess]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

If Radiant can get their hands on suppersor that works on Mistborn, Radiant wins majority of time.

1. Mistborn has no defense there (maybe a coppercloud? but those can be pierced, and duralumin cage could be used to boost the fabrial, if the analogous functions of metals hold up). In this situation Mistborn can only hope to kill Radiant from a distance, and even against lower orders that could get difficult, as they either have mobility options (Gravitation, Teleportation, Abrasion) or improved healing/defense (Progression, Cohesion, Tension).
2. If the Radiant order has long distance attack option (Gravitation, Soulcasting + elsecalling, Division?) they will most likely win this. If not, they need to have mobility option to reach Mistborn.
3. In other situations Mistborn cannot kill the Radiant, but the Radiant cannot reach Mistborn, so a draw.

Yeah, I feel like this would likely lead to a draw, unless the Radiant lures the Mistborn in close and then activates the fabrial. Most Mistborn ain't stupid enough to run in and go fight a power-armored pseudo-deity while powerless. I would put suppressor fabrials in the same boat as surge fabrials, however, since they require a sentient spren.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Radiant has attractor fabrial, which they could use to steal vials of metal from Mistborn (not gun, assuming it is aluminum and bullets are also aluminum). Here the outcome would depend on how much metal Mistborn already has inside of them.

Attractor Fabrials are more limited than you make them seem. The ones we see don't have very good range and can only be focused on specific types of materials, so maybe you could get it to attract all metals, from pretty closeby. Unless we've seen some more advanced models that I'm forgetting about.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Against 3rd Oath, orders with better mobility win (so 6/10), the rest has to survive long enough for Mistborn to run out of Steel so they can get close enough for the kill. I think Stonewards would have good shot at that with their defensive options, Lightweavers+Truthwatchers could hide/confuse Mistborn with enough Illusion (sure, they can detect them with bronze, but they still see them), and Bondsmith could survive if they could open Perpendicularity/renew their light. I'd give it to Radiant 7-8/10. Approaching for close combat would be very risky to Mistborn due to Shardblade.

Close combat would be very risky, but it could be done if the Mistborn had aluminum melee weapons. I'd give the Mistborn better odds than you did, maybe 6-7/10 for the Radiant, maybe less depending on how effective attractor Fabrials are.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

For 3rd Oath and below there is a question of how effective would Soothing and Rioting be, considering Radiant is already quite invested when having Stormlight in the system. Lifeless are more effected (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/395/#e13062), those with a lot of Breath are less effected (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10895). So possibly this helps Radiant of 3rd Oath and below to be less thrown of balance.

It's possible that soothing/rioting wouldn't work as well, but I'm assuming a 'lot of breaths' to mean something like fifth heightening, which is likely much more investiture than the average Radiant has, given that a thousand breaths is enough to create a Shardblade, which is sort of approximately equal to a spren, maybe? Soothing or rioting a spren would be tough though.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

For what it is worth, Coppermind says this on Stormligth " Stormlight also greatly increases the physical capabilities of the Surgebinder, who gains superhuman strength, speed, endurance, stamina, and healing of both body and soul. ", but it does not source this, and I have only physical books which are not easily searchable. If someone could look through books, or knows why coppermind says this I would be grateful

In OB, when Sigzil was testing the abilities of Stormlight, Skar managed to run 'over a mile from the center of the market, then crossed the plateau and charged the ramp' in ten minutes without Stormlight. With Stormlight and a quarter lashing upwards to make himself lighter, Drehy managed to run that distance in under six minutes, which was the fastest time out of all bridge 4. a quick google tells me that the world record for a two-mile run (Which is probably longer than bridge 4 was running) is 7:58.61. Given that Drehy used a lashing to help instead of just relying on the Stormlight boost, I'd say that this lines up pretty well with Stormlight letting you sprint forever, something that normal humans can only do for about 20-30 seconds.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

 Except being Invested should make Radiant at least somewhat more difficult to soothe, and soothing nor rioting are not mind control. If they are in a fight, Mistborn would not be able to do that.

I agree. This was in the context of a sneak attack, which is the Mistborn's preferred method of attack.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Using duralumin while compounding is extremely risky and difficult to control, as I mentioned before (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901), so not sure they could pull it off.

It's not really necessary, given how OP normal compounding is. I was just bringing it up to defend the fully charged steel plate armor, which really isn't necessary. ten times speed for an hour or so will be more than enough, and won't require duraluminum compounding.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Wax describes BoM as the fullest metalmind he has ever seen, hence they are fuller then Miles'.

Thanks. In that case, I would theorize that Kel used duraluminum compounding to fill them, increasing the 'pressure' of attribute and allowing him to force more trait in.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

That WoB on 2-3 bullets is only Wax (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/385/#e12595) under regular circumstances, however that is Vindication, which is stronger then most Era 2 guns, it is Wax who can further boost the shot with A-Steel and he can tap F-Iron to put more leverage behind that push.

Vindication isn't stronger than a shotgun, it's still a pistol. And a Mistborn can still boost their shots with A-steel. They don't need to break Plate in one shot, they only need a consistent way to damage it until they run the Radiant out of Stormlight.

I've got another scenario to bring up:

Mistborn with allomantic grenades vs. Radiant with normal fabrials.

With allomancy grenades, a Mistborn can leech 3rd ideal Radiants from a distance and set up speedbubbles to slow them down. Moreover, charging the device with aluminum will allow for shutting down powers around the grenade:

Quote

Rodrigo

What would be the difference between an aluminum and a chromium grenade, and between nicrosil and duralumin grenades?

Brandon Sanderson

We're talking specifically about the Bands of Mourning ones?

*Matt affirms*

So, what would be the difference? Aluminum would create a sort of "You can't use Allomancy in this... nearby this" most likely, yeah. Duralumin would do the opposite. You would be able to use it and then enhance someone. I haven't played with the ranges on these things yet, and so that's where we get into kind of the question mark territory. Like, right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. Does that make sense?

But, my intent is to get to the point where it's doing things like this, right. Where you could theoretically be an Aluminum Gnat, you could charge this thing up and throw. And hey, you know, you have... the Metalborn nearby are unable to use their talents. That's convenient, right? Like, I want more of the powers to be relevant and these grenades are a way to do that.

You know, Marasi's power is not the most useful on the planet to have herself. For those who don't know, she can slow down time... well, speed up time? Awkward how... the phrasing of how you do that. But basically she can make a bubble around herself where everyone outside of it moves super fast. That's not terribly useful, right? Unless you want to age, you know, really slowly.

[...]

Not really useful in combat, to be able to be like "Yeah, I'm gonna make all my enemies move really, really fast and I can't respond to them". But, she can charge up one of those grenades and toss it, it becomes real handy. For her, the grenades are more useful than the inverse, right, because speeding up someone is useful, but slowing someone down takes someone out of the battle essentially. Or a whole globe of them... globe is the wrong term, but yeah.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

 

[Rg2045]

Another though. Reverse lashes I feel are not being used properly in fights. How would a mistborn do if one arm is pulled to the right and the other to the left? What if it’s pulled so much their arm gets ripped off? 

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

Another though. Reverse lashes I feel are not being used properly in fights. How would a mistborn do if one arm is pulled to the right and the other to the left? What if it’s pulled so much their arm gets ripped off? 

The radiant still needs to touch the place in order to put a reverse lashing there.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Frustration

[Rg2045]

 

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The radiant still needs to toucn the place in order to put a reverse lashing there.

But they don’t have to touch the mistborn and can easily move around them

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

 

But they don’t have to touch the mistborn and can easily move around them

Yeah, but you need to maintain contact with the reverse lashing in order to make one.

[Rg2045]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yeah, but you need to maintain contact with the reverse lashing in order to make one.

Maybe with their current understanding, maybe they can leave a sphere there? Like shallan with her illusions 

[NameIess]

31 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yeah, but you need to maintain contact with the reverse lashing in order to make one.

Actually, you don’t. Kaladin infused the floor to pull on the Pursuer’s head and then walked away as it ripped off. Could be a continuity error, or perhaps he just timed it well.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Actually, you don’t. Kaladin infused the floor to pull on the Pursuer’s head and then walked away as it ripped off. Could be a continuity error, or perhaps he just timed it well.

I'd just call that timing.

Quote

"Kaladin turned and strode toward the Heavenly Ones as the Pursuer's head ripped from his body and slammed to the floor with a crunch." -RoW page 1128

 

[Rg2045]

“Reborn” I’m in audible so it’s about 9 mins in (it’s a 12 min chapter so 3/4 through it) lirin is making comments about the shardplate, How it doesn’t feel like anything, how it’s present but not intrusive. How it’s there but can be invisible with only an outline. This is said both wile the shards are fully up and wile they are invisible. So yeah I finally found the point I wanted to find

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

6 hours ago, Nameless said:

Mistborn with allomantic grenades vs. Radiant with normal fabrials.

In before shardplate negates all possible aoe effects from grenades.  

That said I love the cadmium example in that WOB.  

Using time bubbles as weapons themselves to jar the enemy is way underutilized.  

 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

In before shardplate negates all possible aoe effects from grenades.  

Would probably depend on the size of the grenade, but high-oath radiants would definatly be able to push through.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

In before shardplate negates all possible aoe effects from grenades.  

That said I love the cadmium example in that WOB.  

Using time bubbles as weapons themselves to jar the enemy is way underutilized.  

I highly doubt that Cadmium would be affected by Shardplate. It might protect from the jarring sensation, but not the time dilation.