Allomancer vs Knight Radiant

[cometaryorbit]

7 hours ago, therunner said:

I see we have moved goalposts to allow Medallions, as Mistborn could not keep up with 4th Oath and above with only Allomancy.

 

That's why I think its better to stick to Radiants as we've actually seen them vs Mistborn as we've actually seen them- which means no guns or medallions for the Mistborn, but they do get atium; but no hypothetical Surge uses or adding Surge Fabrials on top of Radiant abilities.

We don't really know what will keep Mistborn, once they reappear in Era 3 (?), from all being basically full compounders* through Medallions, but I think something will. We just don't know enough about the limits and rules of Medallions.

*even if the 3 powers limit holds (and the Bands strongly suggest it isn't impossible to get around) a Mistborn with compounded Steel, Gold, and Pewter is almost as powerful in combat as a full compounder.

7 hours ago, therunner said:

[...]

Kaladin had no clue what was happening, no teacher and had to practice in secret first few months. Even then he got to 3th Oath in year and a half, and his squires progressed faster and learned faster, since they had someone tell them what is going on.

Compare with Vin, who had teachers for every metal, and unknowinlgy practiced her entire life, and also needed a few months to train.

So I think Mistborn and Radinats are about on par in how long it takes to be proficient.

I agree the later Windrunner squires learned faster than Kaladin, but while Vin trained for months she was able to jump off the city wall on her first day - and I believe Kelsier said his teacher did that to him, so that's not just Vin being awesome/intuitive. Vin's also a special case since she actually Snapped at birth, but we know exactly when Kelsier Snapped.

Mistborn aren't super skilled at the beginning, sure - we see Kelsier during his training in "The Eleventh Metal" and he's definitely not the bar-spinning expert in Iron/Steel we see in Book 1 - but I think they gain basic competence for steel jumping significantly faster than Windrunners gain basic competence for flying using Lashings.

Although Gravitation flight is better once you do develop it (except maybe Vin's horseshoe flight, but that's unique to her).

I think part of the issue is that Radiants' Surges develop as the bond develops whereas Mistborn have full access to all metals upon Snapping, they just have to learn skill.

[Frustration]

37 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Wax wasn't dead for ten minutes.

And you can tell that how?

37 minutes ago, Nameless said:

and the Steel in the spearhead was only 1/16th of the total mass. Was the spearhead 16 times larger than a normal one? Probably not. So she didn't have a very large metalmind to work with.

It was roughly the same size as a spike, so much larger than a spearhead.

37 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Except metals can be pushed on via allomancy, from a distance greater than inside a large house.

Ony thing is that metal is made out of a spren, and is further invested by the fabrial itself. They won't be pushing on that.

37 minutes ago, Nameless said:

With the ability to tap Nicrosil, a Mistborn could compound their allomantic abilities.

They can. Take a nicrosil medallion that gives the ability to store and tap Nicrosil, then compound it, which will key that investiture to your identity, removing the leftover identity from other people that causes interference between medallions. Then take other nicrosil medallions that give the various allomantic abilities, and compound those. The identity gets keyed to you, you're now a Fullborn.

You can't store the investiture that is in a medallion.

37 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Alerter spren are weaker than Bronze, which can detect that somebody is holding Stormlight:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Would a Seeker burning bronze be able to tell what order of Knight Radiant someone is? Or what Surges they have access to?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but they'd have to be actively using it, right? So you could hear somebody -- for instance -- Lashing, but if you just saw somebody who'd drawn in Stormlight, you probably wouldn't be able to tell until they use that Stormlight, which it was. You'd be able to probably hear that they have the Stormlight.

Questioner

So the pulses are not unique to Scadrial's Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

No they're not. You'd be able to do that. In fact there are other things in the cosmere that are kind of the same sort of "radar detection" here and there, that you can read in the same way. Bronze is just the one of the best... way to do it -- being a Seeker is really handy for these reasons.

Being able to go off-planet with your Allomancy also is a pretty big advantage. It's really hard, for instance, to get a Surgebinder off of Roshar, because of the Connection stuff that's happening. In fact you may have heard in a prologue just recently someone complaining about that.

Footnote: The prologue Brandon talks about can be found here.
DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

 

The shriekers heard Kaladin holding stormlight too, it was only Shallan they had trouble with.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Frustration

[cometaryorbit]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You can't store the investiture that is in a medallion.

I think you're probably right, but we know so little about the mechanics here - medallions apparently do become part of the user's spiritweb in some sense, which is why people can use them without being a nicrosil Ferring.

There probably is some rule keeping an actual nicrosil Misting from compounding medallions, but it's not clear how/why.

That's why I don't think there's any point in adding medallions to the debate... we don't know their limits and rules well enough. There might even be something keeping a natural Allomancer from compounding with a medallion - I don't think we saw that done in BoM. (It's referenced that the Bands could probably be refilled by Compounding, but that could be either natural Twinborn Compounders or the Bands' own powers - not one natural power + one medallion power).

And if medallions are ruled out due to insufficient knowledge we should probably rule out Surge Fabrials too and stick to the regular Surge pairs.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

And you can tell that how?

Because His conversation with Harmony didn't last that long.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It was roughly the same size as a spike, so much larger than a spearhead.

Well, 1/16th of that is still pretty small. Even a pair of bracers would be vastly more than that.

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Ony thing is that metal is made out of a spren, and is further invested by the fabrial itself. They won't be pushing on that.

The Sibling incorporates normal metals into the tower, and metals in Fabrials are not necessarily invested.

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You can't store the investiture that is in a madallion.

Source?

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The shriekers heard Kaladin holding stormlight too, it was only Shallan they had trouble with.

No they did not. Kaladin could hold Stormlight just fine, they only detected him when he used it.

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Because His conversation with Harmony didn't last that long.

They spent a time walking without speaking.

10 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The Sibling incorporates normal metals into the tower, and metals in Fabrials are not necessarily invested.

When spren become fabrials they turn into metal.

10 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Source?

The fact that the investiture is in the medallion, not the user, as seen by the fact that they have to touch the metal in order to use it.

As well as the fact that the southerners would have tried that.

10 minutes ago, Nameless said:

No they did not. Kaladin could hold Stormlight just fine, they only detected him when he used it.

I don't recall anytime that happened.

On 7/4/2022 at 10:51 AM, Nameless said:

The Radiant's going to want their spren close, so they can be immediately summoned if the Mistborn pulls a sneak attack.

Shallan summons Pattern as a blade despite him not being there

Quote

"Oh! a perky voice said in Veil's mind. We were almost here anyway, Veil!" -RoW page 107

 

[NameIess]

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

When spren become fabrials they turn into metal.

And that metal is not necessarily a godmetal, and thereby can be affected by allomancy.

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The fact that the investiture is in the medallion, not the user, as seen by the fact that they have to touch the metal in order to use it.

A feruchemist has to touch their metalminds in order to use them. A Mistborn could eat a medallion granting F-nicrsosil, then compound it and store all the excess in another metalmind.

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

As well as the fact that the southerners would have tried that.

They don't have a Mistborn, so the identity conflict would still be there preventing a Fullborn from happening.

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't recall anytime that happened.

Chapter 69, page 687 of OB:

Quote

"I can hold Stormlight as long as I want without drawing attention," Kaladin said. "The moment I Lash something, they come screaming."

 

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Shallan summons Pattern as a blade despite him not being there

Pattern was fairly close by, but that is a good point.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

And that metal is not necessarily a godmetal, and thereby can be affected by allomancy.

But the spren is sentient, and thus counts as alive.

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

A feruchemist has to touch their metalminds in order to use them.

To tap them, but they can store in any metal, and aren't required to hold something else while doing it.

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

They don't have a Mistborn, so the identity conflict would still be there preventing a Fullborn from happening.

They have soulbearers, if it worked the way you say giving them a medallion with A-Nicrosil and any other power would enable them to gain a new power and they could just switch between medallions until they had them all.

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Reason 1 is valid, but reason 2 is not. A Shardblade is simply too far superior to any other weapon, and not using one does not actually completely protect your spren, as they are completely vulnerable while not summoned. If anything, seeing anti-light being used would cause the Radiant to immediately summon their Shardblade in order to keep their spren safe.

Spren needs not be nearby, as summoning is nearly instantaneous. But I agree that reason 2 is weaker of the two.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Mistborn gets +dexterity from Pewter, and the Radiant doesn't. So they're stronger and more dexterous even before the Radiant's stormlight gets leeched, which will happen in a few seconds after contact. Alternatively, the Mistborn can pull a Pursuer and stab the Radiant in the spine to paralyze them, then leech away all their Stormlight before they heal.

Stormlight improves dexterity, perfects is the word used I think, and the feats done by Radiants go beyond human level.
On Pewter improving dexterity we also don't have any quantifiers, so we can argue back and forth how much it improves it all day, but I would point out that Pewter-arms are called 'Thugs', not 'Dancers', which shows what is the main benefit, and what is minor side effect.

Pursuer could teleport + millennia of practice, don't tell me you expect Mistborn to be that fast and that skilled? That is seriously stretching what Mistborn are capable of.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

All of this arguing over a magic system is silly. We can, for the theoretical argument, give any side any equipment. You want to discuss a Mistborn with metals and guns against a Radiant with fabrials? Fine. How do you think it would turn out?

It is not silly, you use the argument 'is uses investiture' to discount entire basis of Rosharan technology.

Right now I don't have enough time to go into detail, but in ~12 ish hours I will post on Radiant + fabrials (non-surge) vs MIstborn with metals + guns (no atium), i.e. Era 2 standard.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

On the other hand, I say that if we give both sides a month on their respective planets to prepare, the Radiant could maybe get some surge Fabrials and some other ones, while the Mistborn could become a Fullborn.

And Radiant could built suppersor fabrial and simply, turn off Allomancy and Feruchemy in given radius. Or entire suppresor minefield.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

They still took weeks of practice, as I remember. Learning to use a gravitation fabrial would easily take that long, perhaps longer depending on how exactly you use it.

And so take most Mistborn to start pulling of the tricks you mention, months even.

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

That WoB doesn't say anything about a completely filled metalmind, just a filled one. Which could mean anything. Additionally, the Bands of Mourning, a full metalmind, was only slightly less invested than a Shardblade:

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

You've said that Shardblades can be made in other magic systems. So if it's not like a Shardblade from Roshar, what makes it a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

The "Shard" refers to the heavy Investiture of a Shard of Adonalsium. Most of what you’ll see will see are the Roshar ones, but it is technically possible to make them out of the other magic systems. It's going to be a heavily invested magical weapon, is kind of how I would define it.

Questioner

So are the Bands [of Mourning] one?

Brandon Sanderson

I would not call them one, but they are close. They're not Invested enough.

Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016)

So unless that Elsecaller has a ton of Stormlight, it's not happening.

Indeed, and we have no clue how long it took to create Bands of Mourning, could have been a week, could have been years. And maybe it works along different principles entirely.

The one compounder we have seen (Miles) did not have that filled metalminds, so why should this hypothetical Mistborn/Fullborn? (I will look for WoB on soulcasting Shardblades, because there was one).
And you can attack them indirectly, soulcast the ground beneath them into air, and then into stone. That should buy you a second or two even against pseudo-Fullborn.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

55 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And you can tell that how?

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They spent a time walking without speaking.

41 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Well, 1/16th of that is still pretty small. Even a pair of bracers would be vastly more than that.

A few things to note:

I feel like there could also reasonably be some serious time dilation here while speaking to a shard as you are in-between realms.

We know that there are serious diminishing returns on how much you are tapping a metalmind.  It even says she was tapping as much as she could at once... there is no real way to know how much speed was stored that completely got wasted... but undoubtedly a ton of all of the attributes got wasted as she tapped so much.  Remember Bleeder did some pretty disgusting stuff with steel and likely only used a fraction of what Marasi did.  

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They have soulbearers, if it worked the way you say giving them a medallion with A-Nicrosil and any other power would enable them to gain a new power and they could just switch between medallions until they had them all.

Could also be that the Southerners simply havent experimented very far into the medallions.  It was tech that was given to them by what must have seemed to be a god.  They obviously do plenty of experimentation but until we know more all we have to go off of is the fact that the bands do exist which indicates that can exist again and a mistborn swallowing a band and burning that metal is going to have access to that attribute (how you could have it while holding it and not while burning it ties up my brain).  Not that they need to create new bands.  A single medallion would provide the needed pieces to run circles around anything short of a shard and also survive a shardblade through the spine.  

 

1 minute ago, therunner said:

Stormlight improves dexterity, perfects is the word used I think, and the feats done by Radiants go beyond human level.

Perfecting what is there is different than improving.  There is no magical 600lb dude or 5 year old who becomes Bruce Lee after breathing in stormlight.  It works so well for Kal because he was a soldier already.  Where as pewter does add more to what was there.  Neither of them teach you how to fight or move but there is a difference in that pewter gives you what wasn't there and stormlight perfects what was.  In Vin and Ham discussing it with each other pewter actually did more for Vin because she started with less.  Stormlight isn't turning you into something you aren't where pewter is.  Stormlight just makes you never get tired and heals all of your wounds as they happen granting you the ability to ignore any negative sideeffects to what may comeup in a fight.  Imagine being able to lift your max ripping and tearing your muscle fibers but they all heal as it is happening.  You are going to feel stronger but it is still only your natural limits.  Pewter actually changes those limits themselves.  

 

7 minutes ago, therunner said:

And Radiant could built suppersor fabrial and simply, turn off Allomancy and Feruchemy in given radius. Or entire suppresor minefield.

The only fair way to judge who would win.  Neither is allowed powers or tech.  Just 2 naked combatants in the sand until one of them stops breathing.  

But then it is no longer arguing systems either haha.  

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Bleeder did some pretty disgusting stuff with steel and likely only used a fraction of what Marasi did.  

The most impressive thing she did was shooting four people in the same room quick enough that it sounded like one shot. Which isn't that impressive all things considered.

4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Could also be that the Southerners simply havent experimented very far into the medallions.

They were originally only given f-brass medallions, everything else is made from their experiments.

5 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

but until we know more all we have to go off of is the fact that the bands do exist which indicates that can exist again

Allik said it was possible, but only if the person making them was already Fullborn.

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

and a mistborn swallowing a band and burning that metal is going to have access to that attribute (how you could have it while holding it and not while burning it ties up my brain).

But why would they continue to have access after it burns completly?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But why would they continue to have access after it burns completly?

Is the nicrosil not what stores said ability?  The identity issue is solved in the compounding process.  

I do believe something fishy is going on with the nicrosil in medallions as it seems to not wear down and I would think a typical nicrosil metalmind should wear out eventually.  

There is a host of things that could happen depending on what exactly excisors are and also through various other combinations of scadrial magic / tech.  I actually am of the opinion that a soulbearer is the single most powerful ability on scadrial with access to the tech as it is evolving.  

Also the fact that the new protagonist for era 3 is going to be a nicroburst hints to Brandon playing off of the medallions more (total theory there).  And I don't know that we are going to see this person become a full feruchemist or fullborn but I do think we see scadrial in Era 2 at their all time low for invested arts. 

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Is the nicrosil not what stores said ability?

Metalminds store investiture too.

[NameIess]

31 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But the spren is sentient, and thus counts as alive.

If the metal is not invested, then it can be pushed and pulled.

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

To tap them, but they can store in any metal, and aren't required to hold something else while doing it.

That's because a Feruchemist doesn't get their abilities by tapping a metalmind.

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They have soulbearers, if it worked the way you say giving them a medallion with A-Nicrosil and any other power would enable them to gain a new power and they could just switch between medallions until they had them all.

Do they have soulbearers? metalborn are so rare in South Scadrial as to be considered gods.

27 minutes ago, therunner said:

Stormlight improves dexterity, perfects is the word used I think, and the feats done by Radiants go beyond human level.
On Pewter improving dexterity we also don't have any quantifiers, so we can argue back and forth how much it improves it all day, but I would point out that Pewter-arms are called 'Thugs', not 'Dancers', which shows what is the main benefit, and what is minor side effect.

Stormlight does not enhance skills such as balance, it takes you to your peak level of fitness indefinitely. 'Thug' has always been a misnomer. Basically every time we see a Pewterarm, it's noted that they move with 'pewter enhanced grace' or something similar. When explaining how to burn pewter effectively, Ham explicitly mentions burning pewter when he stumbles to give himself an instant sense of balance. Radiants never mention taking in Stormlight to give themselves an extra sense of balance.

33 minutes ago, therunner said:

Pursuer could teleport + millennia of practice, don't tell me you expect Mistborn to be that fast and that skilled? That is seriously stretching what Mistborn are capable of.

It does not take millennia of skill to casually walk up to a Radiant from behind while soothing their caution, then stab them in the neck from behind and start leeching.

37 minutes ago, therunner said:

And Radiant could built suppersor fabrial and simply, turn off Allomancy and Feruchemy in given radius. Or entire suppresor minefield.

Again, doesn't work because the Mistborn can tap tons of F-nicrosil to counter it.

38 minutes ago, therunner said:

And so take most Mistborn to start pulling of the tricks you mention, months even.

Yeah. But I'm not arguing that a Radiant will take forever to learn to use their powers. We're using Fourth ideal Radiants here. I'm arguing that it would take a long time for a Radiant to learn to use a Surge fabrial.

39 minutes ago, therunner said:

Indeed, and we have no clue how long it took to create Bands of Mourning, could have been a week, could have been years. And maybe it works along different principles entirely.

The one compounder we have seen (Miles) did not have that filled metalminds, so why should this hypothetical Mistborn/Fullborn? (I will look for WoB on soulcasting Shardblades, because there was one).
And you can attack them indirectly, soulcast the ground beneath them into air, and then into stone. That should buy you a second or two even against pseudo-Fullborn.

Duraluminum compounding will work extremely quickly, and shouldn't be a problem. And where are you getting Miles not having metalminds that were that full?

25 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But why would they continue to have access after it burns completly?

Because they've been storing the ability inside of metalminds? That's kinda the point of compounding.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

If the metal is not invested, then it can be pushed and pulled.

If the spren is alive, and is the metal, the metal is invested. It might not be a shardmetal, but it would be just as hard to push on as something inside someone's body.

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

That's because a Feruchemist doesn't get their abilities by tapping a metalmind.

So the power is in the metal itself, not the individual. Therefore they cannot store it.

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Do they have soulbearers? metalborn are so rare in South Scadrial as to be considered gods.

In order to make medallions they need metalborn. They have ferrings as seen by the firemothers and firefathers. And since feruchemical genes can bring out any specific ability they must have soulbearers.

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

It does not take millennia of skill to casually walk up to a Radiant from behind while soothing their caution, then stab them in the neck from behind and start leeching.

Assuming their spren doesn't notice. Or their plate. And ambush is accepted as an unfair advantage given to the side initiating it and should thus be disreguarded entirely.

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Because they've been storing the ability inside of metalminds? That's kinda the point of compounding.

Which they wouldn't be able to do without another medallion, which they can't use because you can only use one.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

If the spren is alive, and is the metal, the metal is invested. It might not be a shardmetal, but it would be just as hard to push on as something inside someone's body.

I don't believe it works like that, or else Kaladin would have had a very hard time using adhesion of the floors of the tower, which are manifested from the Sibling's essence.

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

So the power is in the metal itself, not the individual. Therefore they cannot store it.

Look. They tap the metal, and the power is inside them. Then they store it. That works, yes? So then, they could also compound the metal. I don't see your problem with this.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

In order to make medallions they need metalborn. They have ferrings as seen by the firemothers and firefathers. And since feruchemical genes can bring out any specific ability they must have soulbearers.

Soulbearers cannot compound. You need A-nicrosil for that.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Assuming their spren doesn't notice. Or their plate. And ambush is accepted as an unfair advantage given to the side initiating it and should thus be disreguarded entirely.

What is unfair about saying: 'A Mistborn has a very good chance of assassinating a Radiant, regardless of their ideal'? Nothing. Just like saying: 'A Radiant has a very good chance of killing a Mistborn if they have the advantadge of surprise' isn't unfair to the Radiant. Both of those statements are factual, so far as I see them. Do you disagree with these statements?

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Which they wouldn't be able to do without another medallion, which they can't use because you can only use one.

 While a Mistborn is burning a nicrosil medallion that gives them the ability to tap and store Nicrosil, they have tons of the ability. More than they need to actually store and tap Nicrosil. So they can store the excess. I don't see the issue.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

I don't believe it works like that, or else Kaladin would have had a very hard time using adhesion of the floors of the tower, which are manifested from the Sibling's essence.

No, the floors are made from the mountain of Ur, as they told Venli.

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Look. They tap the metal, and the power is inside them. Then they store it. That works, yes?

No. Tapping would draw the power out of the metal, which they can't do. Likewise they cannot store any of the abilities medallions give.

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Soulbearers cannot compound. You need A-nicrosil for that.

Medallions can give more than one ability. A-Nicrosil and any other one you want.

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

What is unfair about saying: 'A Mistborn has a very good chance of assassinating a Radiant, regardless of their ideal'? Nothing. Just like saying: 'A Radiant has a very good chance of killing a Mistborn if they have the advantadge of surprise' isn't unfair to the Radiant. Both of those statements are factual, so far as I see them. Do you disagree with these statements?

I think both are pointless, yes if you rig a fight enough you can get any outcome you want, so don't rig the fight at all.

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

While a Mistborn is burning a nicrosil medallion that gives them the ability to tap and store Nicrosil, they have tons of the ability. More than they need to actually store and tap Nicrosil. So they can store the excess. I don't see the issue.

The fact that you can't remove the ability from a medalion.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

No. Tapping would draw the power out of the metal, which they can't do. Likewise they cannot store any of the abilities medallions give.

Wait, what? How do you think they get the power if they can't tap it? If they can't tap the power, they can't use the abilities that the medallions give.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Medallions can give more than one ability. A-Nicrosil and any other one you want.

If they have no A-nicrosil mistings, they have no A-nicrosil medallions.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I think both are pointless, yes if you rig a fight enough you can get any outcome you want, so don't rig the fight at all.

Every fight is rigged. in all reality, a Mistborn assassinating a Radiant is much more likely to happen than a straight-up fight. Mistborn are assassins, not fighters like most Radiants.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The fact that you can't remove the ability from a medalion.

Let me reiterate: If you can't tap the medallion for power, you can't use the power. So how do you suppose they get the power?

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Wait, what? How do you think they get the power if they can't tap it? If they can't tap the power, they can't use the abilities that the medallions give.

The abilities are locked to the metal, if they could tap them they could remove the powers from the metal but they can't. So it's not tapping.

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

If they have no A-nicrosil mistings, they have no A-nicrosil medallions.

They have mistings, so they have to have all kinds of mistings.

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Let me reiterate: If you can't tap the medallion for power, you can't use the power. So how do you suppose they get the power?

Well obviously they can because if they could tap them they could remove the powers from the medallion.

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Every fight is rigged. in all reality, a Mistborn assassinating a Radiant is much more likely to happen than a straight-up fight. Mistborn are assassins, not fighters like most Radiants.

Fine Odium is released from Roshar and destroys Scadrial before new Mistborn are ever born.

Not a fair fight in the slightest, so why bother with it?

Edited July 6, 2022 by Frustration

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

The abilities are locked to the metal, if they could tap them they could remove the powers from the metal but they can't. So it's not tapping.

So how are they getting the powers?

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

They have mistings, so they have to have all kinds of mistings.

They have very few Mistings. They treat all metalborn as gods.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well obviously they can because if they could tap them they could remove the powers from the medallion.

What? They need to constantly tap it in order to use the powers. That's how feruchemy works.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Fine Odium is released from Roshar and destroys Scadrial before new Mistborn are ever born.

Not a fair fight in the slightest, so why bother with it?

Odium's release would likely not immediately lead to Scadrial's destruction, as he'd have to get through Harmony first. And this is Mistborn vs Radiant, not Odium vs. Harmony.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Odium's release would likely not immediately lead to Scadrial's destruction, as he'd have to get through Harmony first. And this is Mistborn vs Radiant, not Odium vs. Harmony.

Harmony is a non-issue

Spoiler

Questioner

Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Questioner

Yeah. 

Brandon Sanderson

Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?

Questioner

Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, there's your answer.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

And I was using it to illustrate my point. These discussions aren't fun if you rig it in one sides favor.

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

So how are they getting the powers?

What? They need to constantly tap it in order to use the powers. That's how feruchemy works.

If it is tapping why can't they pull the powers out and use them without medallions?

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

They have very few Mistings. They treat all metalborn as gods.

They have fewer but that doesn't mean they have 1 per generation. They have more than enough to have multiple metalborn of each type. In fact every member of their society needs a medallion to live, so they have to have them in significant number.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Harmony is a non-issue

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Questioner

Yeah. 

Brandon Sanderson

Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?

Questioner

Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, there's your answer.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

And I was using it to illustrate my point. These discussions aren't fun if you rig it in one sides favor.

You and I have different philosophies on these discussions. I know that a Radiant of the fourth ideal has a huge advantage over a Mistborn in open battle. I know a Mistborn's better at assassination. So I look for strategies and situations which could cause a Mistborn to win. If we put both players on an even field, a Mistborn loses the fight.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If it is tapping why can't they pull the powers out and use them without medallions?

If a feruchemist is tapping speed, why can't he tap it all at once and then use it as he wishes, instead of being limited by holding his metalminds?

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They have fewer but that doesn't mean they have 1 per generation. They have more than enough to have multiple metalborn of each type. In fact every member of their society needs a medallion to live, so they have to have them in significant number.

That is a good point, but it is still entirely possible that they haven't experimented enough (Because of the treating metalborn like gods thing) to figure out that a nicrosil misting could become a Fullborn.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

If a feruchemist is tapping speed, why can't he tap it all at once and then use it as he wishes, instead of being limited by holding his metalminds?

Because f-steel isn't like f-copper. With f-copper you keep your memory even after you stop tapping.

And medallions f-nicorsil portion behaves like a coppermind

Spoiler

 

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

Therefore it cannot be tapped as otherwise you would be able to take the ability to use f-brass out alltogether, rather than having to continue to hold the medallion.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Because f-steel isn't like f-copper. With f-copper you keep your memory even after you stop tapping.

And medallions f-nicorsil portion behaves like a coppermind

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

Therefore it cannot be tapped as otherwise you would be able to take the ability to use f-brass out alltogether, rather than having to continue to hold the medallion.

That WoB literally says that they can tap it. And regardless, you don't have to be able to tap it in order to compound it.

Also, this WoB contradicts BoM, where Wax notes that the F-nicrosil stored inside the Bands is running out. That doesn't make sense if this WoB is accurate. Books above WoBs.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

That WoB literally says that they can tap it. And regardless, you don't have to be able to tap it in order to compound it.

Also, this WoB contradicts BoM, where Wax notes that the F-nicrosil stored inside the Bands is running out. That doesn't make sense if this WoB is accurate. Books above WoBs.

I don't recall it ever mentioning running out of f-nicrosil.

[NameIess]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't recall it ever mentioning running out of f-nicrosil.

He noted that the stores that changed his levels of investiture were running low. That's F-nicrosil.