Frustration Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 8 minutes ago, Nameless said: Yeah, it will crack a little bit. Not a lot, but a little bit. That seems fairly consistent with what we see in the books. It would take absolutely forever to break Plate that way, but it would eventually work. If the coins can't get through wood, then they can't get through plate. Warforms, who are easily as strong as someone with pewter, thrust pikes into Jasnah with no effect. Regualr steel plate can defeclt arrows from 160 pound bows from ten paces. 10 minutes ago, Nameless said: Well, if we're giving the Radiant bullets and knowledge of how to make their spren into a gun barrel, or a gun barrel and spren bullets, then the Mistborn definitely gets a shotgun. Wax could break Plate in one shot from Vindication, so a shotgun shouldn't have any problems. Wax could only possibly do it in one shot. It would still take him 2-3 on average. 12 minutes ago, Nameless said: Soulcasters use a lot of Stormlight, and make the barracks in sections. Tree sized plants will not be fine. Besides, how fast can a Radiant actually cause the plants to grow? I don't think we've ever seen anyone make plants grow at a speed that would be very difficult to dodge. They use three gems at most, so no they don't use a lot of stormlight. We saw them make an entire building. Kazah made a whole in one of the stone spires around Aiamia large enough to sail a ship through. 13 minutes ago, Nameless said: Except it's not at all like that, because Lightweaving illusions are made of Investiture, and are not something that is being affected by Investiture. No, I don't think it will leech the Radiant, but yes, it will get rid of the illusion. Hm, I suppose that might be possible. Make the illusion bigger, so it's a black sphere ten feet in diameter, with the Mistborn at the center, they will never be able to touch it, and thus can't leech it. 15 minutes ago, Nameless said: Source? Quote "Though Shallan wanted her team to become spies, Jasnah seemed to see their powers of illusion as a distant second to their ability to feed armies."-RoW page 315 Spoiler Questioner Can you tell me anything about the Elsecallers we don't know yet? Brandon Sanderson They should be able to get back out of Shadesmar without having to find a perpendicularity, but Jasnah doesn't know how to do it yet. She should be able to do that, she just hasn't figured it out. Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)  46 minutes ago, Nameless said: How fast can a Stoneward make stone move? upwards of 100 m/s? Unclear. 46 minutes ago, Nameless said: Alright, so the Radiant leaves air holes. What's stopping the Mistborn from just walking away and coming back later when the Radiant's not so prepared? What benefit does the Radiant get from bunkering down? What's to stop the radiant from following the Mistborn everywhere? 47 minutes ago, Nameless said: So what? Is the average Radiant a Singer? Because I thought we were using average Radiants and average Mistborn. Both of which are human, except maybe Willshapers. The average Mistborn only had ten metals. 48 minutes ago, Nameless said: Ten times speed? Compounding gives way more than ten times speed. It's exponential returns. otherwise TLR wouldn't be able to spend maybe an hour or two compounding youth every day and be fine, even ignoring the massively increased youth requirements placed upon him by his age. That's not even accounting for duraluminum, which will massively speed up compounding again. Besides that, no Radiant besides maybe a Skybreaker could get their hands on any Surge Fabrial besides a Soulcaster in as short a time as a week. And even if they did, A Mistborn would still be so much more powerful with gold and steel compounding that it wouldn't even be funny. It's not exponential, it's multiplicative. TLR is FAR more powerful than any other allomancer we've seen, his compounding is thus far more powerful as well. By the time a Mistborn is alive at the same time as medallions Radiants will have plenty of surge fabrials. And it's not a week it's weeks. So a minimum of 2-3. Even with Duralumin it would take you at least a month to get a bracer full enough to even resist a shardblade. 51 minutes ago, Nameless said: Mistborn carry knives. And, after checking RoW, it appears that Radiants do too. So Radiants can have knives. Still won't help them much when grappling with a Mistborn while being leeched. Leeching can't go through or affect plate. 51 minutes ago, Nameless said: If all the Shards left Roshar, then either sapient spren would still be there, or no spren would still be there. Modern-day spren are made of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium. Not just sapient spren, but all spren. Unless there's some spren from other Shards. Spren predate the arrival of shards on Roshar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) 15 hours ago, Frustration said: Given that lurchers can stop coins with wooden shields those won't even bother a plated radiant Yeah Plate is the key to Radiants (at 4th+ ideal) winning. Even Atium (in normal quantities) won't last long enough for a Mistborn's usual weapons (coins and daggers) to break through Plate. Range won't help the Mistborn much since they just can't really harm the Plated Radiant. I'm skeptical that some of the Order specific tricks would work in practice (eg Progression growing plants to grab a Radiant or Cohesion stoneshaping to fire a projectile... I doubt you could actually hit a Mistborn with those sorts of things) but at 4th ideal they don't need specific tricks. EDIT: so i'd say any Order could win reliably at 4th ideal, with the flying or ranged Orders (Windrunners, Skybreakers, Dustbringers, Elsecallers) winning reliably at 3rd due to the Mistborn's lack of healing. Other Orders at 3rd ideal would be pretty binary - either the environment lets the Mistborn stay out of range long enough to run the Radiant out of Stormlight with coins and the Mistborn wins, or it doesn't and the Mistborn gets Shardbladed. -- Now if we give the Mistborn Era 2 tech they can break Plate with guns boosted by Steelpushing the bullet, but even if there were Mistborn in Era 2 they wouldn't have atium, and by 4th ideal Stormlight healing will be so efficient I can't see the Mistborn winning except maybe in the very narrow case that they can stay away almost indefinitely from a Radiant with no ranged option that can hit a Mistborn... and even then, they might literally run out of bullets first given the crazy healing ability we see in RoW. Edited July 5, 2022 by cometaryorbit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Frustration said: If the coins can't get through wood, then they can't get through plate. Warforms, who are easily as strong as someone with pewter, thrust pikes into Jasnah with no effect. Regualr steel plate can defeclt arrows from 160 pound bows from ten paces. I I don't know if I agree that warforms are as strong as someone with pewter, but regardless, I never said that coins would get through Plate quickly. It would take, as I said, a very very long time. Bigger pieces of metal would work much better. 4 minutes ago, Frustration said: Wax could only possibly do it in one shot. It would still take him 2-3 on average. Yes, but he could potentially do it. With a slightly higher caliber than average pistol. A shotgun has a lot more force behind it than that. And the Mistborn doesn't need to do it in one shot. 6 minutes ago, Frustration said: They use three gems at most, so no they don't use a lot of stormlight. We saw them make an entire building. Kazah made a whole in one of the stone spires around Aiamia large enough to sail a ship through. Three very large gemstones. In fact, that's what they were hunting Chasmfiends for. The gemhearts were used for soulcasting, if you remember. And Kazah soulcast a hole large enough for some dinghies to get through, not a large ship. And we saw the soulcasters create a section of a stone block. 9 minutes ago, Frustration said: Hm, I suppose that might be possible. Make the illusion bigger, so it's a black sphere ten feet in diameter, with the Mistborn at the center, they will never be able to touch it, and thus can't leech it. If this was so easy, why haven't Lightweavers done it? Don't Lightweavers have to touch someone to put a Lightweaving on them? And getting too far away from the Lightweaver will still cause the illusion to dissipate, even if they do get it onto you. 12 minutes ago, Frustration said: Quote "Though Shallan wanted her team to become spies, Jasnah seemed to see their powers of illusion as a distant second to their ability to feed armies."-RoW page 315  Reveal hidden contents Questioner Can you tell me anything about the Elsecallers we don't know yet? Brandon Sanderson They should be able to get back out of Shadesmar without having to find a perpendicularity, but Jasnah doesn't know how to do it yet. She should be able to do that, she just hasn't figured it out. Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)  So what you're saying is that it's extremely difficult for even a fourth ideal Radiant to transfer back from the Cognitive realm? Jasnah had plenty of time when she was trapped in Shadesmar to try and figure out that problem, and yet she, one of the foremost scholars in all Roshar, couldn't do so. In any case, it will likely not be something they can do casually. 13 minutes ago, Frustration said: Unclear. Well, given that such speeds seem ridiculous, I'm going to say cannons are off the table. 14 minutes ago, Frustration said: What's to stop the radiant from following the Mistborn everywhere? Well, nothing. But what benefit does hiding in a hole give the Radiant? Seriously, that's just a delaying tactic and doesn't provide any benefit. You have to come out of the hole to continue the fight. 15 minutes ago, Frustration said: The average Mistborn only had ten metals. This is a theoretical argument, so if we wanted to, we could give the Mistborn access to Nightblood and a few thousand breaths and say they'd beat the Radiant. Or we could take away the Mistborn's metals and weapons and say they'd lose. I'm not really interested in debating those situations. The situation I'm interested in debating is a Mistborn with all 16 metals (maybe Atium too) and access to era 2 equipment against an average fourth ideal Radiant from around the same era. If you want to discuss a different scenario, feel free to. 22 minutes ago, Frustration said: It's not exponential, it's multiplicative It is exponential. You fill a metalmind with a few minutes of speed, then burn it and get that multiplied back out. You store that multiplied speed in another metalmind, then burn that and it gets multiplied again. say compounding multiplies something by 10x, and you start out with ten minutes of attrbute. Burn it once, you have 100 minutes. Again, and you've got 1,000. Three more times, and you've got 1,000,000 minutes, or a little less than 700 days worth. Add in duraluminum to make the burn go by practically instantly, and you've got a completely full metalmind in maybe an hour or two. 27 minutes ago, Frustration said: TLR is FAR more powerful than any other allomancer we've seen, his compounding is thus far more powerful as well. More powerful allomancers can simply burn their metals faster. Spoiler mooglefrooglian Does a more powerful Mistborn burn their metals more quickly, or do they use what they get more efficiently? Brandon Sanderson Metal burning speed is proportional to power withdrawn. /r/books AMA 2015 (July 14, 2015) If, as you say, duraluminum is instant, then a Mistborn will be able to compound just as well as TLR, if not better, as I doubt he used duraluminum. 30 minutes ago, Frustration said: By the time a Mistborn is alive at the same time as medallions Radiants will have plenty of surge fabrials. So? This is a theoretical situation. We don't know what Mistborn era 3 tech will look like. And even then, steel compounding is way more OP than surge fabrials. 30 minutes ago, Frustration said: And it's not a week it's weeks. So a minimum of 2-3. Even with Duralumin it would take you at least a month to get a bracer full enough to even resist a shardblade. Well, seven hundred days of attribute is a hundred weeks, so that's like 30 medallions full, in maybe an hour. They've still got a few months before the Radiant manages to convince an Honorspren to transform into a gravitation fabrial and then learns to use said fabrial. 34 minutes ago, Frustration said: Leeching can't go through or affect plate. I know. The context of that discussion was that a Radiant whose Plate was not summoned could be easily killed in a surprise attack by a Mistborn with Chromium, as a Radiant cannot summon Blade, or by extension Plate, while being leeched. 36 minutes ago, Frustration said: Spren predate the arrival of shards on Roshar. I am aware of this. Spren have probably existed on Roshar since before the Splintering. However, I fail to see why the Shards leaving would also necessitate all of the sentient spren leaving, and no other spren. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Nameless said: Well, Shardblades are still indestructible, as the Raysium dagger was perfectly fine channeling anti-Voidlight. Some armor for Radiants of the Third ideal and below could make sense, but Tension/Cohesion treated armor would probably be less useful than normal steel for anyone besides a Stoneward. But now they are vulnerable to being killed, like Phendorana was. If you could attack them in the Shard form directly is a question, but in principle you could catch them whilst forming. This makes usage of them against anyone wielding anti-Light much riskier, and forces a need for backup. You can treat steel armor with Tension/Cohesion to upgrade it further, so still applicable? 1 hour ago, Nameless said: Mistborn carry knives. And, after checking RoW, it appears that Radiants do too. So Radiants can have knives. Still won't help them much when grappling with a Mistborn while being leeched. Except that they can stab Mistborn in the jugular and kill them you mean? Mistborn cannot grapple freely, they need to maintain contact to continue to leech, which will take a couple of seconds at least. During that time their grappling options are limited, whereas all Radiant has to do is stab them in a vital spot. 1 hour ago, Nameless said: Magic systems don't have to be associated with one specific Shard. Feruchemy is of Ruin and Preservation. And besides, the spren you use has to come from a Shard. You literally just associated Feruchemy to Shards. I did not mean that one Invested Art corresponds to one shard, only that proper Invested Arts require Shard (or more). Fabrials can use non-Radiant spren, which predate arrival of Shards to Roshar. Those spren are tied to Shard only in the sense that every single piece of Investiture is tied to some Shard, and Rosharan are highly of Honor and Cultivation. 1 hour ago, Nameless said: Larkin are sapient, I don't think referring to them as animals is entirely accurate. Sapience has no bearing on being animal or not. Humans are animals. 1 hour ago, Nameless said: If all the Shards left Roshar, then either sapient spren would still be there, or no spren would still be there. Modern-day spren are made of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium. Not just sapient spren, but all spren. Unless there's some spren from other Shards. Why would no spren be there? There were spren there prior to arrival of Shards, why would they suddenly vanish? Only higher spren were actively formed by Honor + Cultivation (and some by Odium), the rest is naturally occurring, and predates both arrival of Shards and even Shattering. 1 hour ago, Nameless said: Yes, I would. Singers have the ability to form a kind of bond with a spren that gives them various abilities and specializations, some mundane and some less so. Greatshells can bond with spren to make themselves lighter. That's a magic system. Bonding with spren in order to gain abilities. Just like Fabrials, trapping spren in order to use their attributes, is also a magic system. It is magic system only from our perspective, in-world it is just evolutionary adaptation. Would you call electric eels magic simply because they harness a naturally occurring phenomenon to their advantage? Because greatshells and singers do literally the exact same thing. 1 hour ago, Nameless said: I'm sure that the Aimians wouldn't have an issue if Rysn started practicing hemalurgy. Or if she managed to connect herself to MaiPom enough to become a forger. Neither of those invested arts require the user to be invested. And the Aimians only wanted Rysn to avoid bonding a spren. They didn't say anything about needing to avoid all invested arts. Yeah, I think they would have a lot of issues with her practicing hemalurgy, it is the most monstrous Invested Art there is (at the moment). And even forgers are a bit Invested and channel Investiture when Forging to the stamps + they could Forge themselves, so again they would have issue with that. Dawnshards are an issue when combined with Investiture, where the most relevant one to Rysn is surgebinding (and also the most powerful one), so of course they will warn her of that. They did not tell her to not pickup Honorblades either, yet that does not mean that would not be similarly disastrous. 1 hour ago, Nameless said: I think we're arguing over semantics here. A modern-day Radiant could have access to fabrials, but they are not a part of the Radiant's natural powerset. A Mistborn could have access to medallions, but they are not part of their natural powerset. A Mistborn would be much more potent with medallions than a Radiant would be with surge fabrials. Whether or not you think fabrials are a magic system is up to a matter of philosophy: but Medallions and Fabrials are both magic, and both are available to a Mistborn and a Radiant respectively. If we let a Radiant have Fabrials, we should let the Mistborn have Medallions. I still disagree, non-surge fabrials are only tools just based along different principles than our own. They don't give user additional Invested abilities, they are just tools with various functions, like a gun, or GPS or a phone are. In contrast Medallions do give user access to additional Invested abilities, like Surge fabrials or Honorblades do, and so I feel there must be a distinction between the two cases. Otherwise in Era 3 we will get to point where Mistborn can use phones, GPS and machine guns, but Radiants are stuck with their Surges and knives because all of their tech will be fabrial based, and per your argument we cannot consider that as it is somehow equal to Medallions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, therunner said: But now they are vulnerable to being killed, like Phendorana was. If you could attack them in the Shard form directly is a question, but in principle you could catch them whilst forming. This makes usage of them against anyone wielding anti-Light much riskier, and forces a need for backup. I don't think it'd be that hard to summon a Shardblade, as there's a very narrow vulnerable point. Shardblades are still powerful enough to be worth the risk of using. And if a Radiant's spren dies, I doubt they'll be able to use a backup weapon. 17 minutes ago, therunner said: You can treat steel armor with Tension/Cohesion to upgrade it further, so still applicable? Well, I guess that could work. But metal armor isn't going to be very good against a Mistborn, even if it's been treated with Tension/Cohesion. 17 minutes ago, therunner said: Except that they can stab Mistborn in the jugular and kill them you mean? Mistborn cannot grapple freely, they need to maintain contact to continue to leech, which will take a couple of seconds at least. During that time their grappling options are limited, whereas all Radiant has to do is stab them in a vital spot. Do people normally break contact while grappling with knives? I figured they'd grab the Radiant's arms, tack them to the ground. Kinda like what Adolin did to Sadeas. The Radiant'll have a hard time pulling out their knife while actively getting stabbed by someone who's easily twice as strong as they are. 17 minutes ago, therunner said: You literally just associated Feruchemy to Shards. I did not mean that one Invested Art corresponds to one shard, only that proper Invested Arts require Shard (or more). Fabrials can use non-Radiant spren, which predate arrival of Shards to Roshar. Those spren are tied to Shard only in the sense that every single piece of Investiture is tied to some Shard, and Rosharan are highly of Honor and Cultivation. So is Yolish lightweaving not a magic system, since it was never tied to a specific Shard? 17 minutes ago, therunner said: Sapience has no bearing on being animal or not. Humans are animals. Maybe, but you wouldn't say: humans can be used to operate the tuning forks, and they're animals. 17 minutes ago, therunner said: Why would no spren be there? There were spren there prior to arrival of Shards, why would they suddenly vanish? Only higher spren were actively formed by Honor + Cultivation (and some by Odium), the rest is naturally occurring, and predates both arrival of Shards and even Shattering. Did lower spren form naturally, or were they formed by Adonalsium? 17 minutes ago, therunner said: It is magic system only from our perspective, in-world it is just evolutionary adaptation. Would you call electric eels magic simply because they harness a naturally occurring phenomenon to their advantage? Because greatshells and singers do literally the exact same thing. By that logic, the nahel bond isn't a magic system, because they simply use a naturally occurring bond to their advantage. 17 minutes ago, therunner said: Yeah, I think they would have a lot of issues with her practicing hemalurgy, it is the most monstrous Invested Art there is (at the moment). And even forgers are a bit Invested and channel Investiture when Forging to the stamps + they could Forge themselves, so again they would have issue with that. Their issue would not come from hemalurgy being too dangerous for her to use as a Dawnshard. Source? Forgers make soulstamps, which channel the Dor. They themselves aren't any more invested than a normal human, so far as I know. 17 minutes ago, therunner said: Dawnshards are an issue when combined with Investiture, where the most relevant one to Rysn is surgebinding (and also the most powerful one), so of course they will warn her of that. They did not tell her to not pickup Honorblades either, yet that does not mean that would not be similarly disastrous. Did they tell her to avoid Soulcasters? She has plenty of those right next to her. Why not tell her that? 17 minutes ago, therunner said: I still disagree, non-surge fabrials are only tools just based along different principles than our own. They don't give user additional Invested abilities, they are just tools with various functions, like a gun, or GPS or a phone are. In contrast Medallions do give user access to additional Invested abilities, like Surge fabrials or Honorblades do, and so I feel there must be a distinction between the two cases. Otherwise in Era 3 we will get to point where Mistborn can use phones, GPS and machine guns, but Radiants are stuck with their Surges and knives because all of their tech will be fabrial based, and per your argument we cannot consider that as it is somehow equal to Medallions. You misunderstand my argument. All I'm saying is that if we give Radiants access to all of their magic tech and equipment, then the Mistborn should get the same advantage. And the Mistborn with compounding from medallions is much more dangerous than the Radiant with all the surges from Fabrials. Edited July 5, 2022 by Nameless 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 I think it's probably better to compare known sets of abilities/equipment. There are a lot of things fabrial tech will probably do eventually, or medallion tech, or advanced applications of the Surges - but those aren't defined well enough to come to a conclusion. So I actually think era 1 Mistborn as we've actually seen them, with 9-12 basic metals (the base eight + gold and possibly electrum/duralumin/aluminum) plus atium but no firearms, vs. current Radiants as we've actually seen them up to RoW, is a better comparison. Â 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 9 minutes ago, Nameless said: Three very large gemstones. In fact, that's what they were hunting Chasmfiends for. The gemhearts were used for soulcasting, if you remember. And Kazah soulcast a hole large enough for some dinghies to get through, not a large ship. And we saw the soulcasters create a section of a stone block. Three gemstones that can fit on the back of someone's hand. That's well within the stormlight Radiants carry. 9 minutes ago, Nameless said: If this was so easy, why haven't Lightweavers done it? Shallan is an idiot. 9 minutes ago, Nameless said: Don't Lightweavers have to touch someone to put a Lightweaving on them? I don't think so, but I'm not sure. 10 minutes ago, Nameless said: And getting too far away from the Lightweaver will still cause the illusion to dissipate, even if they do get it onto you. Good luck getting that far away while effectivly blind. 12 minutes ago, Nameless said: So what you're saying is that it's extremely difficult for even a fourth ideal Radiant to transfer back from the Cognitive realm? Jasnah had plenty of time when she was trapped in Shadesmar to try and figure out that problem, and yet she, one of the foremost scholars in all Roshar, couldn't do so. In any case, it will likely not be something they can do casually. Jasnah never practiced getting back before that was her first journey to Shadesmar. On top of that she used all of her stormlight to get there. It might be difficult, but no more difficult than Kaladin flying, or Shallan soulcasting. Saying they can't come back casually is like saying two orders have a semi-useless surge. 14 minutes ago, Nameless said: Well, given that such speeds seem ridiculous, I'm going to say cannons are off the table. Fair. 15 minutes ago, Nameless said: Well, nothing. But what benefit does hiding in a hole give the Radiant? Seriously, that's just a delaying tactic and doesn't provide any benefit. You have to come out of the hole to continue the fight. Why would they hide? No one is suggesting Radiants hide. You're the one suggesting Mistborn hide and wait for a Radiant's stormlight to disipate. 17 minutes ago, Nameless said: This is a theoretical argument, so if we wanted to, we could give the Mistborn access to Nightblood and a few thousand breaths and say they'd beat the Radiant. Or we could take away the Mistborn's metals and weapons and say they'd lose. I'm not really interested in debating those situations. The situation I'm interested in debating is a Mistborn with all 16 metals (maybe Atium too) and access to era 2 equipment against an average fourth ideal Radiant from around the same era. If you want to discuss a different scenario, feel free to. So ambushing Mistborn is off the table, but the Mistborn can wait for a Radiant to not have plate on? 18 minutes ago, Nameless said: It is exponential. You fill a metalmind with a few minutes of speed, then burn it and get that multiplied back out. You store that multiplied speed in another metalmind, then burn that and it gets multiplied again. say compounding multiplies something by 10x, and you start out with ten minutes of attrbute. Burn it once, you have 100 minutes. Again, and you've got 1,000. Three more times, and you've got 1,000,000 minutes, or a little less than 700 days worth. Add in duraluminum to make the burn go by practically instantly, and you've got a completely full metalmind in maybe an hour or two. That's still multiplicative x*10 rather than x^10. And we do not know how much compounding mutiplies by(it's probably different for each metal) so saying that they can do it in an hour is a huge assumption. 47 minutes ago, Nameless said: So? This is a theoretical situation. We don't know what Mistborn era 3 tech will look like. And even then, steel compounding is way more OP than surge fabrials. No it's not. The most impressive thing we've seen steel compounding do used up all of the f-steel in the bands of Mourning(page 407), and she was only moving that fast for a short time, even from her perspective. 49 minutes ago, Nameless said: Well, seven hundred days of attribute is a hundred weeks, so that's like 30 medallions full, in maybe an hour. They've still got a few months before the Radiant manages to convince an Honorspren to transform into a gravitation fabrial and then learns to use said fabrial. Again we do not know the mutiplication factors for any of the compounded metals. And Rushu uses a soulcaster just fine despite probably never using one beforehand. 41 minutes ago, therunner said: I still disagree, non-surge fabrials are only tools just based along different principles than our own. They don't give user additional Invested abilities, they are just tools with various functions, like a gun, or GPS or a phone are. Straight facts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 5 minutes ago, Frustration said: Three gemstones that can fit on the back of someone's hand. That's well within the stormlight Radiants carry. Gemhearts are used for soulcasting. That's basically the only reason the Alethi want them. So it's safe to assume that Soulcasters can use larger gemstones, and commonly do, as such gemstones don't break as easily. 6 minutes ago, Frustration said: I don't think so, but I'm not sure. Every time I remember a Lightweaver put an illusion on someone, they are very close to them, so that at least is likely a requirement. 8 minutes ago, Frustration said: Good luck getting that far away while effectivly blind. Fair. 10 minutes ago, Frustration said: Jasnah never practiced getting back before that was her first journey to Shadesmar. On top of that she used all of her stormlight to get there. It might be difficult, but no more difficult than Kaladin flying, or Shallan soulcasting. Saying they can't come back casually is like saying two orders have a semi-useless surge. I'd say it's more difficult than Kaladin flying, as Fourth ideal Jasnah might not have figured it out yet. Or perhaps she just needs enough Stormlight, which she didn't have access to. I doubt travel between the realms is going to be something any Radiant can do casually. 12 minutes ago, Frustration said: Why would they hide? No one is suggesting Radiants hide. You're the one suggesting Mistborn hide and wait for a Radiant's stormlight to disipate. You suggested that a Stoneward could stop a Mistborn from attacking them from a distance by creating a hole in the ground and hiding inside. 13 minutes ago, Frustration said: So ambushing Mistborn is off the table, but the Mistborn can wait for a Radiant to not have plate on? No, ambushing a Mistborn is not off the table. We can both agree how that would go, I think. Mistborn gets a Shardblade to the spine. 14 minutes ago, Frustration said: That's still multiplicative x*10 rather than x^10. And we do not know how much compounding mutiplies by(it's probably different for each metal) so saying that they can do it in an hour is a huge assumption. Why would it be different for different attributes? Sure, 10 minutes of one attribute might be less Investiture than 10 minutes of another attribute, but if you have a small amount of one attribute and a large amount, they'll both be multiplied the same amount. Now, different metals will have different burning speeds, but with duraluminum that's not a problem. 17 minutes ago, Frustration said: No it's not. The most impressive thing we've seen steel compounding do used up all of the f-steel in the bands of Mourning(page 407), and she was only moving that fast for a short time, even from her perspective. Well, considering that she managed to search the entire temple for Wax, I'd say you're making assumptions about how long it was from her perspective are wrong. Now consider that Marasi was using only the investiture stored in 1/16th of a larger than average spearhead. Full plate armor made entirely of steel contains much more metal than that. And it's not like the Mistborn needs to use as much as Marasi did. Five or ten times normal speed will do just fine to make the Radiant practically helpless. 27 minutes ago, Frustration said: Again we do not know the mutiplication factors for any of the compounded metals. And Rushu uses a soulcaster just fine despite probably never using one beforehand. How long does it take Kaladin to become competent with his lashings? Sure, the Fabrial would allow them to use lashings immediately, but to become good enough to actually use them in a fight against a Mistborn? That took Kaladin quite a long time, and he's Kaladin. Add on whatever difficulties or limitations come from the fabrial, and it's taking the Radiant a few weeks to become competent, minimum. 32 minutes ago, Frustration said: Straight facts. I mean, they're literally not. Fabrials give users access to extra Invested abilities. They work off Investiture. They're magictech. Just like medallions are, if less powerful in combat. Just to reiterate my beliefs about the Radiant vs Mistborn debate again, they are as follows: Radiants below Third ideal stands little chance against a Mistborn. Third ideal, the fight's pretty even. Fourth ideal, Radiants have a huge advantage, and the only situation I can really see the Mistborn winning is when they have proper equipment for breaking Plate and enough Atium to last until the Radiant runs out of Stormlight. Or if they have access to medallions. A steel/gold/pewter combo would be best, although steel/gold or just steel would work as well. Access to gold, nicrosil, pewter, zinc, or chromium might let them win as well, but that's less certain. (Iron and Duraluminum might work too, but that one is really a long shot) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, Nameless said: Gemhearts are used for soulcasting. That's basically the only reason the Alethi want them. So it's safe to assume that Soulcasters can use larger gemstones, and commonly do, as such gemstones don't break as easily. You can't fit something that big on the back of your hand, but you can break a gemheart down into smaller pieces. Soulcasters have to have gems applied into sockets on the back, gemhearts are too big to fit inside. 5 minutes ago, Nameless said: You suggested that a Stoneward could stop a Mistborn from attacking them from a distance by creating a hole in the ground and hiding inside. Where? 6 minutes ago, Nameless said: Why would it be different for different attributes? Sure, 10 minutes of one attribute might be less Investiture than 10 minutes of another attribute, but if you have a small amount of one attribute and a large amount, they'll both be multiplied the same amount. Now, different metals will have different burning speeds, but with duraluminum that's not a problem. If the invesitiure needed for the feruchemical attribute is greater than for the allomantic one in one metal, but the feruchemical attirbute requires less investiture than the allomantic attribute in another they would be different. (So gold would have a lower multiplyer than say Iron or brass) 12 minutes ago, Nameless said: Well, considering that she managed to search the entire temple for Wax, I'd say you're making assumptions about how long it was from her perspective are wrong. She slows down significantly before even begining to search for Wax. 12 minutes ago, Nameless said:  Now consider that Marasi was using only the investiture stored in 1/16th of a larger than average spearhead. Full plate armor made entirely of steel contains much more metal than that. And it's not like the Mistborn needs to use as much as Marasi did. Five or ten times normal speed will do just fine to make the Radiant practically helpless A steel ring weighs 5-6 oz plate armor weighed 70 pounds That's over 200 times the amount of steel. Even assuming that compounding was 200x more effective than standard feruchemy it would take 2-3 weeks to fill up a set of armor. And let's not forget that the bands of mourning are by far the most invested metalmind we have ever seen. 39 minutes ago, Nameless said: mean, they're literally not. Fabrials give users access to extra Invested abilities. I mean so does Atium. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 10 minutes ago, Frustration said: You can't fit something that big on the back of your hand, but you can break a gemheart down into smaller pieces. Soulcasters have to have gems applied into sockets on the back, gemhearts are too big to fit inside. Then why is it mentioned multiple times that the larger the gemstone, the less likely it is to break? 10 minutes ago, Frustration said: Where? Ah, sorry. Letryx said it, actually, and then you replied to my reply to him without reading the context, I guess. 11 minutes ago, Frustration said: If the invesitiure needed for the feruchemical attribute is greater than for the allomantic one in one metal, but the feruchemical attirbute requires less investiture than the allomantic attribute in another they would be different. (So gold would have a lower multiplyer than say Iron or brass) That's not how it works. And even if it is and the multiplier gets as low as double, then ten minutes will only require 20 cycles of burning and storing to get a 1 million times multiplier. With Duraluminum, that could be finished quite quickly. 19 minutes ago, Frustration said: She slows down significantly before even begining to search for Wax. Still manages to search the entire temple extremely quickly before running out. 22 minutes ago, Frustration said: A steel ring weighs 5-6 oz plate armor weighed 70 pounds That's over 200 times the amount of steel. Even assuming that compounding was 200x more effective than standard feruchemy it would take 2-3 weeks to fill up a set of armor. And let's not forget that the bands of mourning are by far the most invested metalmind we have ever seen. 200 times is eight cycles even assuming compounding only multiplies attributes by 2 times. And honestly, I'm assuming it's way more than that for any attribute. And how would the bands be more than completely full? 28 minutes ago, Frustration said: I mean so does Atium. So? It's not like I'm giving the Mistborn access to the powers of a Sandmaster. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Nameless said: No, ambushing a Mistborn is not off the table. We can both agree how that would go, I think. Mistborn gets a Shardblade to the spine. Definitely - if the Radiant is in Shardblade range the Mistborn is probably doomed (barring atium, and even then 30 seconds or so won't be enough to wear through their defenses at higher Ideals). Though tin (which is very slow burning and probably on most of the time) means ambushing a Mistborn will be really, really hard for anyone except a Lightweaver. Though l guess when they're asleep... I wonder if bronze detects Surgebinding by default (since it's loud/high-power) or if that is a really advanced skill (since it's an alien magic system)? 1 hour ago, Nameless said: How long does it take Kaladin to become competent with his lashings?  I do think this is a key point. A lot of the Allomancy abilities are pretty intuitive- pewter makes you stronger/faster/tougher/more agile, tin improves your senses: abilities you already know how to use, just better. Bronze/copper detect/hide: sure there's subtlety with bronze, but the basic "magic here!" function doesn't really have to be learned. Atium basically does the work for you. We see atium users dodge attacks coming from behind even when they didn't consciously see the shadow before dodging. The external mental/physical metals are the ones where skill really matters, and even they seem to be easier to learn than a lot of Radiant abilities. Shooting coins at people is pretty easy, and if you have pewter to absorb hard landings learning to jump isn't that bad either. (Doesn't Kelsier claim his teacher pushed him off a wall his first day, or something? Sure Vin is exceptionally intuitive with Allomancy, but I think it really is learned fast.) 1 hour ago, Nameless said: Radiants below Third ideal stands little chance against a Mistborn. Third ideal, the fight's pretty even. Fourth ideal, Radiants have a huge advantage, and the only situation I can really see the Mistborn winning is when they have proper equipment for breaking Plate and enough Atium to last until the Radiant runs out of Stormlight. Or if they have access to medallions Pretty much. I would say 3rd ideal is pretty binary - either the Mistborn can stay out of range long enough to wear through Stormlight healing with coins (and win), or they can't (and lose). A 3rd ideal Windrunner/Skybreaker, or maybe Dustbringer/Elsecaller depending on the ranged ability those Orders have at 3rd, would probably win.  0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: Definitely - if the Radiant is in Shardblade range the Mistborn is probably doomed (barring atium, and even then 30 seconds or so won't be enough to wear through their defenses at higher Ideals). Though tin (which is very slow burning and probably on most of the time) means ambushing a Mistborn will be really, really hard for anyone except a Lightweaver. Though l guess when they're asleep... I wonder if bronze detects Surgebinding by default (since it's loud/high-power) or if that is a really advanced skill (since it's an alien magic system)? Yeah, bronze would find Surgebinding by default. 4 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: Pretty much. I would say 3rd ideal is pretty binary - either the Mistborn can stay out of range long enough to wear through Stormlight healing with coins (and win), or they can't (and lose). A 3rd ideal Windrunner/Skybreaker, or maybe Dustbringer/Elsecaller depending on the ranged ability those Orders have at 3rd, would probably win. The Mistborn does have a chance at close quarters because of Chromium, but yeah, on the whole getting close would favor the Radiant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 20 minutes ago, Nameless said: Then why is it mentioned multiple times that the larger the gemstone, the less likely it is to break? You can still have size differences, but you aren't fitting three basketball sized gems on the back of your hand. 24 minutes ago, Nameless said: Still manages to search the entire temple extremely quickly before running out. Why would she search the entire temple? She knew where he was at. 24 minutes ago, Nameless said: 200 times is eight cycles even assuming compounding only multiplies attributes by 2 times. And honestly, I'm assuming it's way more than that for any attribute. And how would the bands be more than completely full? Kelsier's allomancy is better, why not his feruchemy? 26 minutes ago, Nameless said: So? It's not like I'm giving the Mistborn access to the powers of a Sandmaster. But it is an outside source of investiture, not native to allomancy. So if Atium is allowed so are other forms of investiture. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Frustration said: You can still have size differences, but you aren't fitting three basketball sized gems on the back of your hand. Then why do they care about gemhearts so much? They're just as valuable as a bunch of smaller gemstones stuck together. Not at all worth the cost. 2 minutes ago, Frustration said: Why would she search the entire temple? She knew where he was at. How? 2 minutes ago, Frustration said: Kelsier's allomancy is better, why not his feruchemy? There are limits to how much investiture a metalmind can hold before it is completely full. Perhaps compounding allows one to fill a metalmind more, as the 'pressure' of it allows you to squeeze more in, but that's not a Kelsier thing. Regardless, the fully invested plate armor isn't even necessary. 500 hours of speed should be more than enough. Go to 10x speed, repeatedly bash the Radiant's Plate with some suitably large object until it shatters, casually dodging any attack they throw at you. What exactly can a Radiant do against that except run away? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Nameless said: Then why do they care about gemhearts so much? They're just as valuable as a bunch of smaller gemstones stuck together. Not at all worth the cost. Based on the rosharan economy each gemheart is worth roughly 10 million USD. And there aren't a lot of creatures out there with suitable gemhearts. They have to both be emerald and big enough to fit into a soulcaster. 42 minutes ago, Nameless said: How? She watched him fall down the hole and after that it's easy to follow the trail of blood as Edwardin showed. 42 minutes ago, Nameless said: There are limits to how much investiture a metalmind can hold before it is completely full. Perhaps compounding allows one to fill a metalmind more, as the 'pressure' of it allows you to squeeze more in, but that's not a Kelsier thing. Regardless, the fully invested plate armor isn't even necessary. 500 hours of speed should be more than enough. Go to 10x speed, repeatedly bash the Radiant's Plate with some suitably large object until it shatters, casually dodging any attack they throw at you. What exactly can a Radiant do against that except run away? Turn their speed off with a supressor fabrial, since multiple magic systems have been allowed. Edited July 5, 2022 by Frustration 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rg2045 Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 5 minutes ago, Nameless said: Then why do they care about gemhearts so much? They're just as valuable as a bunch of smaller gemstones stuck together. Not at all worth the cost. How? There are limits to how much investiture a metalmind can hold before it is completely full. Perhaps compounding allows one to fill a metalmind more, as the 'pressure' of it allows you to squeeze more in, but that's not a Kelsier thing. Regardless, the fully invested plate armor isn't even necessary. 500 hours of speed should be more than enough. Go to 10x speed, repeatedly bash the Radiant's Plate with some suitably large object until it shatters, casually dodging any attack they throw at you. What exactly can a Radiant do against that except run away? isn’t this basically a full born now?   Standard radiant load out. If fighting a mistborn. I think, especially when people talk about a week or two prep time, that the fabrial that would be used is the diminisher. To knock out the mistborn. Basically an easy win, but that’s not fun or fair so let’s ban that. No other fabrial comes to mind to be used except maybe the personal lift belt format. Maybe a weapon (but it feels counterintuitive for the radiant.) ah tho not in mass production a rysium dagger filled with anti-preservation light could cripple a mistborn and possibly take the powers away permanently. Or at least stabbing them with it can have the same effects as leeching and prevents any metals from burning. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Frustration said: But it is an outside source of investiture, not native to allomancy. So if Atium is allowed so are other forms of investiture. Eh... technically maybe, but access to Atium is standard for Mistborn in the Era when Mistborn are actually a thing. The vast majority of Mistborn are noble and hooked into the atium economy, and even outlaw skaa Mistborn like Kelsier could get it just fine until after the Collapse. If we stick to same-era the Mistborn gets atium or bendalloy/Leeching but not both. 10 minutes ago, Nameless said: Go to 10x speed, repeatedly bash the Radiant's Plate with some suitably large object until it shatters, casually dodging any attack they throw at you. What exactly can a Radiant do against that except run away? Depends on the type of Radiant. I'm not sure if that would protect against Jasnah's ranged Soulcasting. We've seen very little Division, but I'd expect at high ideals it could burn down someone moving at 10x speed. ( Gravitation flight under a double Lashing is likely at least that fast though we don't know Roshar's air density.) Edited July 5, 2022 by cometaryorbit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Frustration said: Based on the rosharan economy each gemheart is worth roughly 10 million USD. And there aren't a lot of creatures out there with suitable gemhearts. They have to both be emerald and big enough to fit into a soulcaster. Then why is the justification for why gemhearts are valuable: 'They are super useful for soulcasting, as larger gemstones take longer to break', as opposed to: 'They are super valuable because they are emeralds, and based on the apparent value and mass of emerald broams, are worth tens of millions of dollars'? 5 minutes ago, Frustration said: She watched him fall down the whole and after that it's easy to follow the trail of blood as Edwardin showed. Alright. She still got there extremely quickly, using the stores that were in a very small metalmind. 6 minutes ago, Frustration said: Turn their speed off with a supressor fabrial, since multiple magic systems have been allowed. Suppressor fabrials are hard to transport, short-ranged, and easy to destroy, even ignoring the fact that the Radiants would have to convince a sentient spren to become one. Additionally, a Mistborn could just use compounded Nicrosil to become powerful enough to overcome the suppression. And if we're allowing all magic systems that either side could feasibly have access to, then the Mistborn is a Fullborn via compounding medallions. so now we're doing Fullborn vs Radiant. I think we all know how that ends. Superspeed+superstrength+superhealing OP. 31 minutes ago, Rg2045 said: Standard radiant load out. If fighting a mistborn. I think, especially when people talk about a week or two prep time, that the fabrial that would be used is the diminisher. To knock out the mistborn. Basically an easy win, but that’s not fun or fair so let’s ban that. No other fabrial comes to mind to be used except maybe the personal lift belt format. Maybe a weapon (but it feels counterintuitive for the radiant.) ah tho not in mass production a rysium dagger filled with anti-preservation light could cripple a mistborn and possibly take the powers away permanently. Or at least stabbing them with it can have the same effects as leeching and prevents any metals from burning. Anti-Preservation light will be very difficult to create. You must find the tone of Preservation, which, considering that there is no Preservationlight, will be extremely difficult. In fact, you might have to get Preservationlight (Mistlight?) in order to convert it into Anti-Preservationlight. So not something you could do in a week or two. 30 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: Depends on the type of Radiant. I'm not sure if that would protect against Jasnah's ranged Soulcasting. We've seen very little Division, but I'd expect at high ideals it could burn down someone moving at 10x speed. ( Gravitation flight under a double Lashing is likely at least that fast though we don't know Roshar's air density.) Someone tapping that much speed and burning metals would be highly invested, so that wouldn't work. Gravitation flight would be faster, but the reaction speed of the Radiant would be 10 times slower. So they could run, but they couldn't fight. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Nameless said: Then why is the justification for why gemhearts are valuable: 'They are super useful for soulcasting, as larger gemstones take longer to break', as opposed to: 'They are super valuable because they are emeralds, and based on the apparent value and mass of emerald broams, are worth tens of millions of dollars'? How do you fit something the size of a basketball into one of the soulcaster's sockets? 22 minutes ago, Nameless said: Alright. She still got there extremely quickly, using the stores that were in a very small metalmind. She had A-steel, and pewter. And she had roughly ten minutes to get there(based on how long humans have before brain-death). And the Spearhead was way larger than a regular one, it's not that small. 22 minutes ago, Nameless said: Suppressor fabrials are hard to transport, short-ranged, and easy to destroy, even ignoring the fact that the Radiants would have to convince a sentient spren to become one. The one the fused used is described as little more than a gemstone with metal(RoW page 112). Very easy to carry, and had the range of a house, and is easy to defend. 22 minutes ago, Nameless said: Additionally, a Mistborn could just use compounded Nicrosil to become powerful enough to overcome the suppression. Only if they were using that beforehand, and that means they either only have F-steel or F-gold. Unless the mananged to get ahold of a medallion that gives three abilities, something so rare that we only know of two of them. 22 minutes ago, Nameless said: And if we're allowing all magic systems that either side could feasibly have access to, then the Mistborn is a Fullborn via compounding medallions. You can't do that. The only known way to make a medallion with all abilities is to already be a fullborn. Edited July 5, 2022 by Frustration 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rg2045 Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 28 minutes ago, Frustration said: How do you fit something the size of a basketball into one of the soulcaster's sockets? She had A-steel, and pewter. And she had roughly ten minutes to get there(based on how long humans have before brain-death). And the Spearhead was way larger than a regular one, it's not that small. The one the fused used is described as little more than a gemstone with metal(RoW page 112). Very easy to carry, and had the range of a house, and is easy to defend. Only if they were using that beforehand, and that means they either only have F-steel or F-gold. Unless the mananged to get ahold of a medallion that gives three abilities, something so rare that we only know of two of them. You can't do that. The only known way to make a medallion with all abilities is to already be a fullborn. Also isn’t mistborn considered on the low end of investiture usage. So they will most likely pass out like gedoki did in RoW 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted July 6, 2022 Report Share Posted July 6, 2022 (edited) I see we have moved goalposts to allow Medallions, as Mistborn could not keep up with 4th Oath and above with only Allomancy. 11 hours ago, Nameless said: I don't think it'd be that hard to summon a Shardblade, as there's a very narrow vulnerable point. Shardblades are still powerful enough to be worth the risk of using. And if a Radiant's spren dies, I doubt they'll be able to use a backup weapon. Yeah, but why risk it? Anti-ligth does look/feel wrong, so after some time (like those 10-ish year till Era 2), Spren could most likely tell if it is being used, and take appropriate actions, e.g. use other weaponry in the meantime. The idea is that backup weapon is there to use when Shardblade is somehow inaccessible, i.e. when leeched/larkined. To use against someone who could potentially kill the spren with anti-light. Both are obvious reasons to have a backup weapon, and both are now familiar scenarios to Radiants, hence usage of backup weapons can be considered normal. 11 hours ago, Nameless said: Well, I guess that could work. But metal armor isn't going to be very good against a Mistborn, even if it's been treated with Tension/Cohesion. I solely reacted to your comment, of course you could use non-metal armor treated in the same way to get something of similar properties that is non-metallic, e.g. use Cohesion to reshape carapace of chasmfiend (which is quite strong on its own, only Grandbows can get through and those require Shardbearers to even pull) and then Tension to strengthen it further. So yeah, we can get Radiants armor that can withstand coins with certainty (as those can be stopped by regular human with wooden shield), and possibly even guns (though it would hurt like hell), and we don't require fabrials for that. 11 hours ago, Nameless said: Do people normally break contact while grappling with knives? I figured they'd grab the Radiant's arms, tack them to the ground. Kinda like what Adolin did to Sadeas. The Radiant'll have a hard time pulling out their knife while actively getting stabbed by someone who's easily twice as strong as they are. Sure, but Radiant has reflexes that are in the same league as Mistborn, Mistborn mainly has strength advantage on them. If Radiant can keep one hand free to attack, Mistborn is toast, if Radiant can get in the killing strike before Mistborn reaches them, Mistborn is toast, if Radiant is on 3rd Oath and strikes Mistborn before they make contact, Mistborn is toast. And this does not even consider Surges. Mistborn does not have room for mistakes in this scenario, Radiant has. 11 hours ago, Nameless said: So is Yolish lightweaving not a magic system, since it was never tied to a specific Shard? Yolish ligthweaving is currently not functioning properly, and was not since Shattering, so there is a good chance it was tied to Adonalsium directly. 11 hours ago, Nameless said: Maybe, but you wouldn't say: humans can be used to operate the tuning forks, and they're animals. Yes, because humans require additional tools to be performing the same task, but that was not the point. The point was that removal of stormlight can be performed by something that is (seemingly at this point) of intelligence similar to crow or octopus, but not of human level. 11 hours ago, Nameless said: Did lower spren form naturally, or were they formed by Adonalsium? Good question, EDIT: (posted before finishing this part). So, apparently at least some of the spren formed from Investiture that Adonalsium left there,  Quote  Wetlander So is that like the mists and the Well? Are they... Brandon Sanderson They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness. But, the Seons are self-aware. So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there. Those were already Splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense? You have seen other Splinters. Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)   but they atteined sentience on their own. So it seems that Adonalsium cast off some of its power, and some spren formed from that on their own. So, those spren are natural in certain sense? They were not actively created. This does not preclude existence of some that were actively formed, but we have no mention of such. Additionally, most lower spren existed prior to Shattering and spren-formation is cosmere-wide fundamental rule (i.e. a natural rule) Quote Questioner Spren. The phenomenon that creates spren. Is that Roshar-specific or is that a general effect? Brandon Sanderson Well, yes and no. So the question is, the effect that creates spren, is that Roshar-specific or is it general. The general fundamental rules that create spren are cosmere-wide. Spren are pieces of Investiture, usually pieces of Investiture that come straight from one of the Shards of Adonalsium, split off in some way, that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own. Develops personalities and comes alive, so to speak. And this can happen on any pla-- in any place where there is Investiture. So it could happen on any planet in the cosmere with significant amounts of free Investiture. The places you've seen this happen most commonly are on Sel and Scadri-- err Roshar. You haven't seen it on Scadrial, and you've seen little kind of hints at it on Nalthis, but not quite. And so-- But it's possible for it to happen anywhere. Seons and spren are basically the same thing with different powers-- powers kind of pushing them in different-- growth out of them-- That said, the non-sapient spren, so the spren that are not quite as-- They're not going to stand up and talk to you. Those all existed-- not all, but most of them existed on Roshar before the Shattering of Adonalsium. JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)  11 hours ago, Nameless said: By that logic, the nahel bond isn't a magic system, because they simply use a naturally occurring bond to their advantage. Actually no, you are misapplying the argument. First, Nahel spren were formed by Shards, so they are not/were not naturally occurring and were made. Second, Nahel bond itself is more of a general principle, as you can bond seon or other Cognitive entities, so yes that part is just naturally occurring, but the Surgebinding is due to presence of Shards and were even first done directly by Shard (Honorblades) and only later did Spren start mimicking that (and we still don't know what happened afterwards, or how this process started). So yeah, Nahel bond is not a magic system, but Rosharan Surgebinding which is usually accessed through Nahel Bond is a magic system. 11 hours ago, Nameless said: Their issue would not come from hemalurgy being too dangerous for her to use as a Dawnshard. Source? Forgers make soulstamps, which channel the Dor. They themselves aren't any more invested than a normal human, so far as I know. Did they tell her to avoid Soulcasters? She has plenty of those right next to her. Why not tell her that? Their issue would come with the fact that using Hemalurgy she can easily gain Invested powers, they would not be happy with that. Forgery cannot be done just be anyone, so there is something different about Spiritwebs of people who can, and that difference allows them to manipulate Dor, including infusing themselves with it (see Soul Stamps), or give themselves different abilities. So I would say they would not like to see it in a similar way. Good point on soulcasters not being mentioned, either they forgot (doubtful) or using Soulcaster does not allow for Dawnshard to be used with it (as it is a mechanical mean of accessing Invested power). It is odd though, as Soulcasters (the people) have their spiritwebs warped by its usage leading to savantism, suggesting that Investiture does go through their soul. 11 hours ago, Nameless said: You misunderstand my argument. All I'm saying is that if we give Radiants access to all of their magic tech and equipment, then the Mistborn should get the same advantage. And the Mistborn with compounding from medallions is much more dangerous than the Radiant with all the surges from Fabrials. I understand your argument, I am saying that the argument is flawed. Fabrials are not the same thing as Medallions, fabrials are gun equivalent of Roshar. Medallion equivalent are Honorblades and maybe Surge Fabrials. You are the person that started bringing other tech into it (guns), and when I (and others) suggested that means Roshar can at least use basic fabrials (since all their tech will be based on that) you react by bringing up Medallions, which are step above what fabrials do, in that they allow user to access other Invested art which fabrials don't. 10 hours ago, Nameless said: I mean, they're literally not. Fabrials give users access to extra Invested abilities. They work off Investiture. They're magictech. Just like medallions are, if less powerful in combat. No they literally do not. Fabrials (regular, not Surge) mimic invested abilities, the glove Kaladin had did not grant him usage of Gravitation, it was just clever application of Conjoiner. Does Rysn get access to 'extra Invested abilities' because of her chair? Because it works off the exact same principles as Kaladin's glove. By your logic guns are also off the table, as they give limited ability to Steelpush to anyone who uses them (and are even more powerful, because they allow pushing of Aluminum!). And lightbulbs grant people basic lightweaving! Also off the table. Adrenalin shots can grant Pewter-like power, also off the table! Local anestezia are painrials in tablet form, also off the table! Technology is not magic, even when it uses different the real-world physics. The only difference between Scadrial technology and Rosharan fabrial based technology is fuel (e.g. gunpowder/electricity vs stormlight/lifelight/voidlight), and some operating principles (where Roshar can leverage also Cognitive and Spiritual realm physics to get what they want, but Scadrial is limited to Physical realm physics). To put it plainly, someone with a bunch of fabrials mimicking some application of some Surges is no more a Surgebinder, than a person with a gun and shot of adrenaline is Steelpusher and Pewter-arm. 10 hours ago, Nameless said: How long does it take Kaladin to become competent with his lashings? Sure, the Fabrial would allow them to use lashings immediately, but to become good enough to actually use them in a fight against a Mistborn? That took Kaladin quite a long time, and he's Kaladin. Add on whatever difficulties or limitations come from the fabrial, and it's taking the Radiant a few weeks to become competent, minimum. Kaladin had no clue what was happening, no teacher and had to practice in secret first few months. Even then he got to 3th Oath in year and a half, and his squires progressed faster and learned faster, since they had someone tell them what is going on. Compare with Vin, who had teachers for every metal, and unknowinlgy practiced her entire life, and also needed a few months to train. So I think Mistborn and Radinats are about on par in how long it takes to be proficient. 9 hours ago, Nameless said: That's not how it works. And even if it is and the multiplier gets as low as double, then ten minutes will only require 20 cycles of burning and storing to get a 1 million times multiplier. With Duraluminum, that could be finished quite quickly. Duralumin and compounding is bad idea, it is very difficult to control, so I don't think they could use it to compound faster https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901 9 hours ago, Nameless said: So? It's not like I'm giving the Mistborn access to the powers of a Sandmaster. Only a Feruchemist, which is pretty much equally different. Different Invested Art + different mode of Initiation. 9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: I wonder if bronze detects Surgebinding by default (since it's loud/high-power) or if that is a really advanced skill (since it's an alien magic system)? Some Surges definitely, but possibly not all. Shallan used Surgebinding in Kholinar, and no alerter noticed (and those are made to detect Surgebinders), so bronze would be better against some orders than others. 8 hours ago, Nameless said:  Additionally, a Mistborn could just use compounded Nicrosil to become powerful enough to overcome the suppression. And if we're allowing all magic systems that either side could feasibly have access to, then the Mistborn is a Fullborn via compounding medallions. so now we're doing Fullborn vs Radiant. I think we all know how that ends. Superspeed+superstrength+superhealing OP. You can only use one Medallion at the time, and typicaly Medallion can grant two powers at most, so they will still not turn Mistborn to Fullborn. And even then, as long as Elsecaller is in Cognitive, they can soulcast Medallions away, as even ordinary soulcaster can do that Quote Questioner Can you Soulcast an Invested object? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but it's much harder. But humans are Invested, and you can soulcast humans. Questioner So, suppose you had a goldmind that was filled. And you tried to Soulcast into iron. What would happen to the Investiture inside it? Brandon Sanderson So, the Investiture would remain in there, but it's keyed to the wrong thing, so you wouldn't be able to get it. It'd be much harder to Soulcast that, by the way. The more Invested, the harder it is. But Soulcasters are used to it, because everything has Investiture, and most of what they're Soulcasting. They deal with this, so it's something they're kind of expert at. So, this is not outside reason, that it could happen. You could give it to your average Soulcaster on Roshar, and they could make it happen. You just wouldn't be able to get the Investiture out of it anymore. Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)  Edited July 6, 2022 by therunner 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted July 6, 2022 Report Share Posted July 6, 2022 14 hours ago, Frustration said: How do you fit something the size of a basketball into one of the soulcaster's sockets? No idea, but here's the quote from tWoK: Quote Beyond that, the larger a gemstone was when used by a Soulcaster, the less likely it was to shatter. Enormous gemheart stones offered near-limitless potential. tWoK, ch. 15 p. 224  14 hours ago, Frustration said: She had A-steel, and pewter. And she had roughly ten minutes to get there(based on how long humans have before brain-death). And the Spearhead was way larger than a regular one, it's not that small. Wax wasn't dead for ten minutes. and the Steel in the spearhead was only 1/16th of the total mass. Was the spearhead 16 times larger than a normal one? Probably not. So she didn't have a very large metalmind to work with. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: The one the fused used is described as little more than a gemstone with metal(RoW page 112). Very easy to carry, and had the range of a house, and is easy to defend. Except metals can be pushed on via allomancy, from a distance greater than inside a large house. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: Only if they were using that beforehand, and that means they either only have F-steel or F-gold. Unless the mananged to get ahold of a medallion that gives three abilities, something so rare that we only know of two of them. With the ability to tap Nicrosil, a Mistborn could compound their allomantic abilities. 14 hours ago, Frustration said: You can't do that. The only known way to make a medallion with all abilities is to already be a fullborn. They can. Take a nicrosil medallion that gives the ability to store and tap Nicrosil, then compound it, which will key that investiture to your identity, removing the leftover identity from other people that causes interference between medallions. Then take other nicrosil medallions that give the various allomantic abilities, and compound those. The identity gets keyed to you, you're now a Fullborn. 6 hours ago, therunner said: Yeah, but why risk it? Anti-ligth does look/feel wrong, so after some time (like those 10-ish year till Era 2), Spren could most likely tell if it is being used, and take appropriate actions, e.g. use other weaponry in the meantime. The idea is that backup weapon is there to use when Shardblade is somehow inaccessible, i.e. when leeched/larkined. To use against someone who could potentially kill the spren with anti-light. Both are obvious reasons to have a backup weapon, and both are now familiar scenarios to Radiants, hence usage of backup weapons can be considered normal. Reason 1 is valid, but reason 2 is not. A Shardblade is simply too far superior to any other weapon, and not using one does not actually completely protect your spren, as they are completely vulnerable while not summoned. If anything, seeing anti-light being used would cause the Radiant to immediately summon their Shardblade in order to keep their spren safe. 6 hours ago, therunner said: I solely reacted to your comment, of course you could use non-metal armor treated in the same way to get something of similar properties that is non-metallic, e.g. use Cohesion to reshape carapace of chasmfiend (which is quite strong on its own, only Grandbows can get through and those require Shardbearers to even pull) and then Tension to strengthen it further. So yeah, we can get Radiants armor that can withstand coins with certainty (as those can be stopped by regular human with wooden shield), and possibly even guns (though it would hurt like hell), and we don't require fabrials for that. You could do that, but you also use metal. Why use such a non-standard material other than to stop a Mistborn from affecting you, something Radiants have no idea is a possibility? 6 hours ago, therunner said: Sure, but Radiant has reflexes that are in the same league as Mistborn, Mistborn mainly has strength advantage on them. If Radiant can keep one hand free to attack, Mistborn is toast, if Radiant can get in the killing strike before Mistborn reaches them, Mistborn is toast, if Radiant is on 3rd Oath and strikes Mistborn before they make contact, Mistborn is toast. And this does not even consider Surges. Mistborn does not have room for mistakes in this scenario, Radiant has. Mistborn gets +dexterity from Pewter, and the Radiant doesn't. So they're stronger and more dexterous even before the Radiant's stormlight gets leeched, which will happen in a few seconds after contact. Alternatively, the Mistborn can pull a Pursuer and stab the Radiant in the spine to paralyze them, then leech away all their Stormlight before they heal. 7 hours ago, therunner said: I understand your argument, I am saying that the argument is flawed. Fabrials are not the same thing as Medallions, fabrials are gun equivalent of Roshar. Medallion equivalent are Honorblades and maybe Surge Fabrials. You are the person that started bringing other tech into it (guns), and when I (and others) suggested that means Roshar can at least use basic fabrials (since all their tech will be based on that) you react by bringing up Medallions, which are step above what fabrials do, in that they allow user to access other Invested art which fabrials don't. No they literally do not. Fabrials (regular, not Surge) mimic invested abilities, the glove Kaladin had did not grant him usage of Gravitation, it was just clever application of Conjoiner. Does Rysn get access to 'extra Invested abilities' because of her chair? Because it works off the exact same principles as Kaladin's glove. By your logic guns are also off the table, as they give limited ability to Steelpush to anyone who uses them (and are even more powerful, because they allow pushing of Aluminum!). And lightbulbs grant people basic lightweaving! Also off the table. Adrenalin shots can grant Pewter-like power, also off the table! Local anestezia are painrials in tablet form, also off the table! Technology is not magic, even when it uses different the real-world physics. The only difference between Scadrial technology and Rosharan fabrial based technology is fuel (e.g. gunpowder/electricity vs stormlight/lifelight/voidlight), and some operating principles (where Roshar can leverage also Cognitive and Spiritual realm physics to get what they want, but Scadrial is limited to Physical realm physics). To put it plainly, someone with a bunch of fabrials mimicking some application of some Surges is no more a Surgebinder, than a person with a gun and shot of adrenaline is Steelpusher and Pewter-arm. All of this arguing over a magic system is silly. We can, for the theoretical argument, give any side any equipment. You want to discuss a Mistborn with metals and guns against a Radiant with fabrials? Fine. How do you think it would turn out? On the other hand, I say that if we give both sides a month on their respective planets to prepare, the Radiant could maybe get some surge Fabrials and some other ones, while the Mistborn could become a Fullborn. 7 hours ago, therunner said: Kaladin had no clue what was happening, no teacher and had to practice in secret first few months. Even then he got to 3th Oath in year and a half, and his squires progressed faster and learned faster, since they had someone tell them what is going on. They still took weeks of practice, as I remember. Learning to use a gravitation fabrial would easily take that long, perhaps longer depending on how exactly you use it. 7 hours ago, therunner said: Duralumin and compounding is bad idea, it is very difficult to control, so I don't think they could use it to compound faster https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901 Shouldn't be too hard to control safely, just make sure you have enough metal to store all the attribute in. 7 hours ago, therunner said: Some Surges definitely, but possibly not all. Shallan used Surgebinding in Kholinar, and no alerter noticed (and those are made to detect Surgebinders), so bronze would be better against some orders than others. Alerter spren are weaker than Bronze, which can detect that somebody is holding Stormlight:  Spoiler Questioner Would a Seeker burning bronze be able to tell what order of Knight Radiant someone is? Or what Surges they have access to? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but they'd have to be actively using it, right? So you could hear somebody -- for instance -- Lashing, but if you just saw somebody who'd drawn in Stormlight, you probably wouldn't be able to tell until they use that Stormlight, which it was. You'd be able to probably hear that they have the Stormlight. Questioner So the pulses are not unique to Scadrial's Investiture? Brandon Sanderson No they're not. You'd be able to do that. In fact there are other things in the cosmere that are kind of the same sort of "radar detection" here and there, that you can read in the same way. Bronze is just the one of the best... way to do it -- being a Seeker is really handy for these reasons. Being able to go off-planet with your Allomancy also is a pretty big advantage. It's really hard, for instance, to get a Surgebinder off of Roshar, because of the Connection stuff that's happening. In fact you may have heard in a prologue just recently someone complaining about that. Footnote: The prologue Brandon talks about can be found here. DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)  7 hours ago, therunner said: You can only use one Medallion at the time, and typicaly Medallion can grant two powers at most, so they will still not turn Mistborn to Fullborn. Again, compounding would key the investiture to your identity and allow you to gain all the powers. 7 hours ago, therunner said: And even then, as long as Elsecaller is in Cognitive, they can soulcast Medallions away, as even ordinary soulcaster can do that That WoB doesn't say anything about a completely filled metalmind, just a filled one. Which could mean anything. Additionally, the Bands of Mourning, a full metalmind, was only slightly less invested than a Shardblade:  Spoiler Questioner You've said that Shardblades can be made in other magic systems. So if it's not like a Shardblade from Roshar, what makes it a Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson The "Shard" refers to the heavy Investiture of a Shard of Adonalsium. Most of what you’ll see will see are the Roshar ones, but it is technically possible to make them out of the other magic systems. It's going to be a heavily invested magical weapon, is kind of how I would define it. Questioner So are the Bands [of Mourning] one? Brandon Sanderson I would not call them one, but they are close. They're not Invested enough. Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016) So unless that Elsecaller has a ton of Stormlight, it's not happening. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted July 6, 2022 Report Share Posted July 6, 2022 18 hours ago, Nameless said: Radiants below Third ideal stands little chance against a Mistborn. Third ideal, the fight's pretty even. Fourth ideal, Radiants have a huge advantage, and the only situation I can really see the Mistborn winning is when they have proper equipment for breaking Plate and enough Atium to last until the Radiant runs out of Stormlight. Or if they have access to medallions. A steel/gold/pewter combo would be best, although steel/gold or just steel would work as well. Access to gold, nicrosil, pewter, zinc, or chromium might let them win as well, but that's less certain. (Iron and Duraluminum might work too, but that one is really a long shot) Steel and gold are a gimme. I do think that iron is perhaps greater than pewter for breaking through armor though. Iron allows you to smash a coin against a radiants plate and then toss them like a ragdoll away from you. When you do connect a blow it could have thousands of lbs behind it. Heck just go into battle with a hammer and tap / store your weight while tossing it around to push and pull all day long. Plus the conservation of momentum allows for your steel pushes and iron pulls to make you far far more maneuverable and fast.  If you weigh 1500lbs (near the same as shardplate) then do a steel push or iron pull and store all of that weight you are going to rocket away far faster. Adjusting your weight to adjust your speed at that point.  Iron compounding could allow some disgusting things.  Zinc I think pairs so well with other things. If you wanted to give up compounded steel (but why???) The zinc would allow you to potentially process electrum to boost your defensive options significantly (again why when you can dance around your enemy while they are moving at snail speed with steel).  Gotta go gold for sure.  And yes mistborn slaughters nearly all radiants (a few orders are exceptions) pre shardplate. The magical armor is just a bit beyond broken. I am curious why plate negates chromium?  It may protect the user from the effects but if chromium can stop you summoning a shardblade it should have some application against plate no? Turn it into a 1500lb coffin that the radiant can't move in?  0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted July 6, 2022 Report Share Posted July 6, 2022 2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I am curious why plate negates chromium?  It may protect the user from the effects but if chromium can stop you summoning a shardblade it should have some application against plate no? Turn it into a 1500lb coffin that the radiant can't move in?  Plate has an interference field that generally protects the user from hostile investiture. Although I haven't been able to find any WoB's on the subject, I feel like there was one that was brought up here earlier. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted July 6, 2022 Report Share Posted July 6, 2022 Just now, Nameless said: Plate has an interference field that generally protects the user from hostile investiture. Although I haven't been able to find any WoB's on the subject, I feel like there was one that was brought up here earlier. So the plate protects the user. But what can a mistborn with chromium / nicrosil do to the plate? Just attack the lesser spren that make up the plate. Is there no investiture somehow in the plate itself that is susceptible to leeching or flaring?  0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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