Letryx13

Your will matters not! You can not hold me back if he speaks the words.

As has been pointed out by several others, there's no real chance Taravangian manipulated Lirin or Kaladin; the timeline just doesn't fit. The only possible way Taravangian could have influenced them would have been to set the stage for Rashone to be sent to HearthStone. But even the Diagram couldn't have predicted things accurately enough for that to work out. Too much of that was a matter of chance. Although I do think that Lirin's and Kaladin's connections to Kharbranth are not coincidental to the story. But I suspsect that relates more to the contest of champions. And as far as Shallan is concerned, I'm not sure what influence Taravangian could have had on her, or would have even wanted to. Her family has been connected to the Ghost Bloods for some time, and while it's now known that she bonded a spren when she was a young child, that information appears to have been completely contained. Her father went to extreme lengths to conceal that, if he even understood it at all. As I recall the flashbacks of WoR, the Ghost Bloods were trying to use Shallan's father to make a play for power in Jah Kaved. But considering that Taravangian was planning on creating chaos to seize control of the country by assassinating the king and crown prince, it doesn't seem likely that he would have had anything to do with it. It's possible he was aware of the Ghost Bloods' plot, but it's unlikely he participated in it. And considering that the Soul Caster broke as a complete accident, it's difficult to see the Diagram predicting Shallan setting out to find Jasnah.

Adolin is an EdgeDancer in personality if not in power. Sanderson has confirmed that Adolin is the kind of person that Maya would have wanted to bond, and I strongly suspect that's part of how he connected to Maya to partially restore her mind. Having said that, I do see a lot of overlap between some of the orders in terms of compatibility. Supposedly, the ancient StoneWards had a kind of rivalry with the WindRunners over who made the better soldiers. And it makes sense that people who could fit into one order might fit well into another one, depending on which type of spren found them first. So I don't think it unreasonable to say that Adolin would make a good StoneWard too.

Agreed. It would be almost impossible for him to have set that up, and it wouldn't have benefited him regardless. I do think the Rashone affair will come up again in book 5, but it will deal with Kaladin and Moash, and Moash's motivation for everything he has done.

That was my interpretation too. The Night of Sorrows seemed like when the Everstorm arrived, heralding the True Desolation.

True, you wouldn't want all of the splinters, since that would include spren. But it could (theoretically) work to attract any splinter that wasn't as defined enough to take the form of a spren. I know I'm spitballing here, but it doesn't seem unreasonable. And I admit, I have no idea what summoning the Storm Father as a shard blade could actually do, but I'm not certain it would form the perpendicularity. Ishar was able to summon it with a completely separate part of Honor's power, so it's not tied to the Storm Father specifically. Frankly, I think the Storm Father as a blade could be something so powerful that it turns the tide of the battle of champions, or some other important plot point of book 5. So I think it's worth contemplating. Totally agree that removing the storm father would cause massive problems for Roshar. My current hope, if the Storm Blade theory turns out to be viable, is that the Night Watcher ends up helping by handling the storms while he's needed for the contest of champions or something like that. Kind of like Hercules holding up the sky for Atlas. The Night Watcher herself has only shown up in flashbacks and references so far, and I don't think that's a coincidence. As far as being summoned being dangerous for the Storm Father, I admit that is a problem with my theory, but Dalinar was talking with the Storm Father about growing and stretching in RoW. And the idea of spren being more than they were is something that was discussed by Kaladin and Syl. Taking that into account, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that it could happen. Implausible, as the WoB says, but not impossible. However, you also make the argument that a BondSmith could have the power to just connect the needed splinters to reform the shard, and I admit, that seems like a reasonable theory as well. It would even help explain why Odium has been so frightened of Dalinar up to this point. Although figuring out how to do that, even with Honor's ghost in the Storm Father, will not be easy.

Someone came up with the idea of trying to sort of attract all the splinters in one place, I forget who posted it. Using the Storm Father as a sort of focus point, attracting piece of the shard from all over Roshar. My take on it was that if there could be a large enough concentration of Honor's power in a small enough space, that could draw in other pieces. If the Storm Father could be summoned as a blade, preferably without unleashing catastrophe on Roshar, that could act as a focal point, reforming the shard.

I've had this idea too. I'd love for a listener, or any singer really, to be the one to take up the shard of honor. The only problem is that the only singers who have played large enough roles in the story so far, and are still alive, are Venli and Rlain. Both of them have undergone pretty impressive character growth already, having become radiants. So I'm not sure it quite fits for either or them to take up honor's shard. Of the two, I could see it being Rlain much more easily that Venli, since he seemed to resolve himself to keeping an eye on humans, but that also fits with his being a TruthWatcher. Not sure if I completely agree with that. Kaladin was mostly comparing the listeners to the soldiers in Sadeas' army. Probably wouldn't happen. At the very least, Lyft is likely next in line to be Cultivation. Or at least Sanderson wants us to think that. I think Odium will end up either being bound or in some other way restrained or altered after KoWT, so he likely won't play a big role after that. But I do agree that it would be interesting to have more Shards that weren't originally human. I doubt Leshwi, or any of the fused, would be capable of taking up the Shard. They're probably too aligned with Odium's power to do it, no matter how honorable they might be. It feels similar to Mistborn with someone aligned with Ruin being unable to take up the power at the well of ascension, which was the power of Preservation. Honor and Odium may not be opposites, but the person taking up the power would likely still need to be compatible with Honor's shard. And I wouldn't exactly call Raboniel honorable. Not after she threatened to traumatize a child in order to keep Kaladin from attacking her. Totally agree. We really need to see more of the Listeners, they're culture and their history, especially now that they are the future of the order of Will Shapers.

Hmmm, that does seem like a possibility. It was hinted at in Oathbringer from Notom to Kaladin about there being ways to break the bond before the 5th ideal. And it's subtle enough that it's something Taravangian might try. But even then, Dalinar hasn't really broken his word, at least, not in regard to the contest of champions. Dalinar could still choose someone else to be his champion. And he might not be Honor's representative any longer, but that only hurts Todium. It's only Honor, or someone representing him, that can free Odium. If Dalinar doesn't represent him any longer, then he shouldn't be able to free Odium.

Sorry, I didn't phrase that well. I agree completely that Odium has the power to destroy or splinter the StormFather. I meant I don't know how he'd manipulate Dalinar into killing the StormFather. He'd have to get Dalinar to choose to end being a Radiant, but even beyond not wanting to betray his oaths, Dalinar likely suspects that turning the StormFather into a dead eye would be disastrous for Roshar. I just can't see him doing it. Agreed.

That could be one way to do it, by manipulating Dalinar. Which would cause indirect damage. I was thinking direct destruction of the StormFather or splintering him. Although, how he could pull that one off is beyond me.

The contract says he has to send a champion. If Taravangian is sending someone to provoke a riot, then he's not sending a champion for a duel. He's provoking a riot. He could probably pull off getting one of his subordinates to kill Dalinar, but Odium is likely the only one powerful enough to kill the StormFather, not counting Cultivation. The amount of anti stormlight needed for that would likely be massive. And Odium can't kill anyone unless he's freed from Honor's restrictions. Maybe one of the Unmade could do it, but I doubt it. And this circles back to the idea of whether or not Taravangian can ease the restrictions on himself, but he's not supposed to harm Kharbranth, otherwise he's violating another agreement. So sacrificing Roshar is also probably out of the question. He made the contract with Dalinar because Dalinar represents honor. Odium specifically stated that when he said that Dalinar could ease the restrictions on him. What it is exactly that makes Dalinar the representative of Honor is a little more nuanced. Whether it's being the leader of the Radiants, a BondSmith, the StormFather's BondSmith specifically, we do not know. But it is likely some combination of three. So I agree that it is entirely possible someone else could choose a champion.

That's part of what makes me think this idea wouldn't work. If the "champion" is provoking people in Uritheru, then Odium isn't sending a champion, he's sending someone to cause havoc. It's not the same thing. It could be different if just by walking by the champion provoked someone, but I don't think it would work if Odium's "champion" went out of their way to pick a fight.

That's the biggest variable in this whole situation. How literally someone might interpret the words of an agreement. And I think that's Sanderson's best asset in writing something like this. There's endless nuance in looking at a person's point of view. I had that idea too, and it doesn't seem all that unlikely. But it also feels to obvious for Taravangian. He seemed to think his method was subtle. Baiting someone into throwing a punch, which is basically what this is, seems too simple.

If that's the case, then I'd argue that as long as Dalinar chooses another champion before dying, there's no broken agreement. I still think it would be interfering, but Todium would have to make certain that Dalinar couldn't choose a champion, in order for that to work.