Letryx13

I remember in Oathbringer that Jasnah commented about how during the battle of Thaylen field she was holding more stormlight than she ever had before. She said something about how the human body wasn't meant to hold that much. It might be something similar.

I admit, I've disliked Jaasnah since her 'lesson' for Shallan.

It's a finer line than most give it credit for. And I wouldn't say he treated Wax like a dog, but like a soldier. Wax himself set out on the path to being a law man in the roughs. But as far as Paalm goes, the only thing we know for sure about what she was ordered to do was keep an eye on Wax and then try to draw him back to Elendel, the second of which she refused to do. Harmony's mistake was at that point, when he wasn't upfront with needing Wax's help. He should have sent another kandra to Wax to help recruit Wax back to Elendel, not had Lessie "killed" to drive him back. But importantly, I think he learned from that mistake. I think that's why he was so more transparent about what was going on in TLM about Autonomy. Sazed said himself that he was trying to do better. He needs all of that. But I think he has the right idea in avoiding Hemalurgy. Even if he does control Ruin, there's too much opportunity to exploit it. Don't forget about the creatures that attacked Wax and Tensoon in the kandra homeland. And who knows what else it might be capable of. He should want that too. Nah, he's more like a cowboy Sherlock Holmes. Way cooler. As far as we know, the first example of Harmony trying to influence Wax directly was when Melaan gave him the first earring. And Wax was already on his way to the roughs to try and make a difference there. I don't think Harmony pushed Wax as hard as most people think. At least, not toward becoming a lawman.

Give how time is moving much faster outside of Roshar than inside, it seems unlikely. I would have loved to see Wax visiting Roshar as a diplomat, had things gone differently on Roshar, but alas, it was not to be. Agreed. Sanderson built up things dramatically in the first half from Kaladin trying to save bridge four to becoming a herald and Dalinar having strange "dreams" to becoming a deity. Need to reset the scale a bit. I don't like what Harmony did, but at the same time, he started out the right way. He was trying to have Wax grow as a law man and warrior and eventually bring him back to Elendel. He went about handling Lessie's defiance the wrong way, but by that point, there probably wasn't enough time to find anyone else. Well, Wax had wanted to be a hero since he was a child, and I doubt that was due to any specific influence on Harmony's part. Lot's of kids on Skadriel probably dream of being like the Ascendant Warrior. Harmony probably took advantage of that, and I'm not thrilled that he did, but at the same time, he is genuinely trying to help his people. One of the questions that kept coming up in Mistborn Era 2 characters was why Harmony would just let things happen, and the answer that kept coming up was how Harmony was guiding people to help. Well, the line between guiding and manipulating is fine, so I can understand how Sazed could take things too far, despite good intentions.

Well, Hoid did instruct him to get off world. So that likely had something to do with it. We know that things eventually soured between Sig and his master, but it seems like that takes place after WaT.

One thing that Sanderson did great with this book was the many callbacks to the earlier books in the series. From Kaladin's famous declaration, "Honor is dead, but I'll see what I can do," to the father of the boy Adolin saved in Thaylen city being so loyal to Adolin, to the Takama in Dalinar's quarters having the belt wrapped twice, there were a lot of great call backs. My personal favorite was Kaladin asking Nale if Lyft had defeated him with the fork. I genuinely laughed out loud at that. But what was your favorite?

The problem is that if the singers get wind that BAM was the spren their ancestors were bonded to, turning them into parshmen, they may be reluctant to work with her. She may not have done it intentionally, but there's still a risk factor. Agreed. We don't know which shards would be doing this, but it's clear that Harmony would if he could. Unfortunately, not only is he dealing with his own threat in Autonomy, but there's the issue of him having trouble acting while holding opposing shards. Of course, a common threat tends to unite people, even when they have their differences from one another. So if three or more of the shards can work together to pin Retribution down, he's screwed. Also agreed. It's somewhat ironic, considering how much they've been a problem for Roshar, but the Ghost Bloods would be extremely useful for this, since it's exactly the sort of thing that their leader is good at. It's basically how he achieved his first real victory against a different, albeit more well intentioned, would be deity. Hard to say. But I suspect if there's anything of him left on Roshar, it's not much. He won't risk himself getting caught like that. Taravangian basically thought he won Roshar by taking up the shard of Honor. And he's arrogant enough to assume that no on left there would defy him. Time will tell. Exactly. That's the premise for this idea. He's the obvious choice. But the thing is that we still know so little about him. So it's hard to say what it is that he really wants. She's arguably the biggest wild card left on Roshar, except possibly the Night Watcher. There's no real way to know what she's going to do. Rayse never wanted her freed, likely realizing that her imprisonment was part of why the shard of Honor hadn't chosen a new vessel. But since it was both a human who locked her up and a human that helped free her, it's impossible to guess what she's planning on doing. This is one of the things I didn't like about this book. It makes sense that the spiritual aspects of people can connect, even across time, but for the spiritual aspect of Dalinar in the past to become aware like that opens up way too many possibilities. It's basically magical cloning. Assuming this new Blackthorn becomes as alive as Dalinar, then there's no reason he couldn't travel back to the spiritual realm and do the same thing to more past versions of Dalinar.

True, we have no idea what she might do to help the singers this time around. No one enjoys it when their help goes unappreciated. Who would a pseudo-deity rather support, people who appreciate her help or people who don't?

Well, it's more of a question of risk than blame. However it happened, it happened while they were all bonded to her. As far as who she supports, it's true that she would likely focus on those who oppose Retribution, well, she's probably not going to go where she's not wanted. And she likely can't empower Singers without their consent.

Also true. Venli managed to recruit people in Kholinar largely because of their fear of being taken over by Fuzed. Or at least their desire to be free of them. Exactly. The Fuzed will only be capable of doing so much with so few of them. And without a war to keep the singer masses focused outward, they're going to want to assert their independence. That's another factor, but then again, Taravangian could view that as a betrayal of loyalty to him. And we don't know how long it will take Honor to grow enough to begin exerting more influence over Taravangian's decisions. Yes, it mostly depends on how many Singers know how they ended up as Parshmen. Some would likely be willing to trust Mishram again, but most would likely be wary of allying with her again. Taravangian noted the his most valuable asset with the Singers was their rage toward humans. The reason most singers hated humans so much was because of what they were forced to endure as Parshmen. And Mishram was a big part of how they got turned into Parshmen.

Possibly. But that akso proves the singers weren't as united as the humans thought. True. She is absolutely a huge factor. But after what happened last time, the singers will likely be hesitant to work with her. Agreed. Rabonial confirmed there were many attempts to resist Fuzed rule in the times of the ancient radiants. I suspect Connection plays a large role in it too. That was my impression ever since we saw how differently the different singers acted after they were restored by the Everstorm. Since their souls were missing such a large piece, the Everstorm connected them to the land they were born to. Kind of like certain language abilities that Dalinar could do, but much more powerful. True, and that was foolish of me to simplify it like that. What I meant was, there would be cracks that any who oppose Retribution can exploit. That's kind of what I mean. So many will want to take different roads that it's going to lead to conflict. With both fuzed and regular singers. Without someone powerful to unify the singers, things are going to get messy, which will cause real problems for Taravangian when he eventually returns.

With the Storm Father gone, I strongly suspect that Syl will be his eventual replacement. But I suspect that won't happen anytime soon. Sounds like the sort of change that would happen in Book 10.

Something I've wondered about is what the singers will do during the time skip. Something that Sanderson has been pretty good about is turning expectations against his readers, such as assuming that all members of groups are united in one way or another. A good example of this is when Adolin is talking to Peak spren on his journey to Lasting Integrity and finds out they have different nationalities. And those nationalities don't seem to think too highly of each other. Which makes me think that things might get a little chaotic for the Singer nations going forward. The main thing that united them for the past several thousand years was common cause. Namely, defeating the humans and followers of Honor. Not only is that gone, but the deity that they followed and kept them together is gone as well. And who know when he's coming back. Combine that with the fact that their world has now changed completely with the Ever Storm and the singers might not be so happy about the world they ended up with. The singers are not above abusing their fellows for one reason or another. After Kaladin spent time with newly awakened singers, Sah and his fellows were basically enslaved. They even complained that they went from being abused by humans to being abused by their own people. And they were not happy about it. Sure, the Fuzed are still around, but they create their own wrinkle. Most of them want to be done with the conflict. Rabonial wanted anti light partially to help end Fuzed suffering. One of the Fuzed told Venli in Oathbringer that the Fuzed would be able to rest after they won back Roshar. They've basically done that. If Taravangian doesn't let them pass on, then they might start to decide they don't want to follow him anymore. Leshwi proves it's possible even for Fuzed to defect. What do I think that means? Well, as was pointed out during the meeting between the Mink, Dalinar, Jasnah, and Navani, Altehkar's unification didn't last a decade after Gavilar's death. Dalinar even points out in TWoK that the most delicate point in any nation's founding is immediately after the death of its founder. If that founder is Odium, while he may not be dead, he isn't on the planet anymore, which is pretty much as good as being dead as far as the people of Roshar are concerned. At least for now. And in that situation, considering the singers adopted much of their personalities from the human nations they come from and how those nations weren't all friendly, I think conflict between Singer nations is extremely likely. Rayse and Taravangian were planning on being there on Roshar to be able to build up militaries to send them off world for his eventual conquest of the cosmere. But since Retribution had to flee, he basically had to leave his followers behind to fend for themselves. If Hoid is correct, and Taravangian doesn't pay as much attention to Roshar as he should while he's gone, then I'd wager that large cracks will start to appear in the Singer nations. Cracks that the humans will be able to exploit in a counterattack.

I've wondered about that too. At this point, Kelsier is almost identical to a spren, which means he's nearly pure investiture. I kept wondering how Ba-Ado-Mishram could take up the shard when she's effectively the same.

Wit specifically says it wasn't a full ascension, which strongly points to Vin. We don't know for certain that he even knows about Kelsier holding the power of Preservation in-between Leras and Vin. But assuming he does know, since the power hadn't truly chosen Kelsier, it probably was easier for Kelsier to let go of it. That being said, it was still one of the more noble things Kelsier ever did. I've wondered that too. Could that orb have allowed Kelsier to hold the power indefinitely? I'd wager not. At least, not unless the person were already aligned with the power, which Kelsier wasn't. Agreed.

I agree, it would make perfect sense for Autonomy to do something like that. It might be something she's already done. But I wonder what religious figure she would use. On Skadriel she used one of the religions Preservation used to convey star maps down to Sazed for when he took up the powers to become Harmony. And there's a theory going around that Jaddeth on Sel is another of Autonomy's planted figures, one that I think is highly likely. Honestly, I'd expected the shard of Odium to be defeated in book five with other shards being the problems going forward. Autonomy in particular would be a great villain, considering how she's operated so far. But I've had some time to think over what Taravangium (or whatever we're storming calling it) and I suspect it will function similar to Raysium, but instead of simply transporting investiture along the metal, it will somehow absorb investiture. Taravangian is so power hungry that this what he would want in a diving metal.

If Sazen could still create Lerasium and Atium, then yeah, Taravangian can still create Raysium. What interests me is what Taravangium would do.

I agree. That would have made far more sense, a much better way to approach it. I completely agree that Jasnah needed to hit her low point in this book. It was the best possible way for her story to progress. And frankly, even personally I feel like Jasnah could stand to learn some humility (much like Taravangian) but having her not know the right answer makes way more sense than to suggest she’d turn traitor. It’s totally inconsistent with her character.

He was trying to humble Jasnah, to teach her a lesson, as I think he phrased it in one of the interludes. Taravangian respects Jasnah, as his belief in his own superiority probably motivated him to try and prove he was better than her. The problem with that is that there is a valid argument to be made that Taravangian is untrustworthy, even bound by oaths as a shard. So literally everything he was saying was suspect. Sure, Jasnah couldn't just keep repeating that without looking weak, but Fen didn't know about the deepest ones, and the 'invading force' had been exposed as a likely ruse. Unfortunately, this is true. I very much doubt that Taravangian cared about how he got Thaylena. What he really wanted to was get the better of Jasnah, and teach her a lesson. The upside of which is that this sets up a fantastic opportunity for her to turn the tables on him in the back half of the series either by proving Taravangian is a hypocrite, or by proving him wrong about her in some other way. Agreed. My reaction to the debate challenge was that Jasnah should have just walked in, told Fen to do what she's gotta do and walked out. He wanted to humble her, to prove he was better than her. The only thing bigger than Taravangian's ambitions is his ego. Exactly. If he merged with the shard of Ambition instead of Honor, he'd have been Arrogance. Sadly, that probably was part of her motivation. I was much the same. Fen's betrayal irked me so much I had trouble sleeping the night after I listened to it. Jasnah, Dalinar, Adolin, and the radiants fought to defend her city, against Alethi yes, but against people under Odium's influence. And she tossed them aside as soon as a more convenient option came along. And I agree about not dealing with a dirty dealer. Especially when the deal is as 'good' as the one Taravangian was offering. If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is. She didn't know they were in checkmate with the deepest ones. That's what makes it galling. If he had threatened to have them assassinated or something, that would be different. But she gave in, not because of threats to her kingdom, but because it was more beneficial to betray her allies. I figured from the start that his plan to take Thaylena involved someone already inside the city. I didn't guess an assassination was the plot, but I guessed that he had agents in Thaylen city as soon as they were talking about how nearly impregnable it was. Exactly. The smart thing to do would be to evacuate the council and Fen to Uritheru, assuming they could be persuaded to do so. As far as they knew, however, the invading force about to attack Thaylen city was a distraction, not a military. Jasnah had already figured that out, which meant a straight up fight was one Thaylen city was likely to win. Taravangian had probably planned on the assassination from the start. Which meant that Fen had no reason to assume they were going to lose the city in a battle. As for trading, they still had the oath gates. Besides, it's still a bad reason to betray allies just to have more people to sell to, even if they are a country of merchants. And I still seriously doubt Taravangian won't try to find some way to wriggle out of the deal he made with Fen. He's too underhanded for me to believe anything else. Fen didn't know about the deepest ones. And Taravangian wasn't doing it to get Thaylena. If that was all he wanted, all he had to do was have the deepest ones attack, and that would be that. He did it to prove his superiority to Jasnah. People think that sort of thing all the time, but then find themselves unable to do it in the moment. Look at what happened with Renarin during the battle of Thalen field. I seriously doubt he actually cares about whether he takes territory by negotiation or marshal force. He says that he wants to make things peaceful, but that's nothing more than his justification. He wants power, and he'll do whatever it takes to get it. Negotiation skills, military size, it doesn't matter. It's all power to him. And it doesn't make sense for him to care about setting up a new government, since he already had people on the council that served him. New leadership would have been easy to establish. Unlike a lot of people, I really don't like the Jasnah of the first half of the series. I was put off by her ever since the 'lesson' she gave to Shallan. I never liked how ruthless she was, such as when she suggested killing the heralds to set up the oath pact prison again. And the fact that she seems to have regularly hired assassins. But I agree that the humility she's hopefully gained from this will help to make her a better person going forward. Could not agree more. That's the main reason why the debate bothers me so much. The radiants had saved Thaylena before, but Fen turned her back on them the moment a better option came along. Fen had been built up nicely as a strong ally, since she had doubted Dalinar so much in Oathbringer but had then supported the coalition so strongly. For her to turn traitor like that is frustrating, no matter what Jasnah had done. I don't like Jasnah, and I don't like that she investigated her allies, but on the other hand, you don't work with people you don't know. And Jasnah probably would have been able to see the holes in Taravangian's arguments if he hadn't spent most of the time attacking Jasnah's character.

It's one of three things, if I had to guess. It's either some sort of remnant of Nohadon's spirit, kind of like a ghost, or Adolnasium, or some combination of the two I'm honestly not sure which I'd rather it be. Nohadon had the connection to Dalinar through The Way of Kings, but considering how he managed to intervene between Dalinar and Taravangian during the contest, that seems like a lot more than such a remnant should be capable of. I would have thought it was just Adolnasium, using Nohadon as a figure Dalinar would trust, but that doesn't quite fit either. This is definitely the same being that Dalinar spoke to in Oathbringer, and that one spoke as the person who had lived Nohadon's life. He specifically said that he tried and failed to conquer the world, which led him down a different path. So I'm left to conclude that it was some combination of Nohadon and Adolnasium. Perhaps it was Adolnasium that pulled Dalinar into the vision and Nohadon that did the talking? I'm not sure. But I'd be willing to wager that we'll see something similar happen to other characters in the future. Perhaps one of Dalinar's sons will need his guidance in a moment of internal conflict.

I'm guessing it was a mis-wording. I think Sanderson has said that all non-void spren are a mixture of Honor and Cultivation. It just means that honor spren are almost entirely of Honor and cultivation spren are almost entirely of Cultivation. Which seems perfectly reasonable.

That was when I knew for sure that 12124 was Aux. the fact that he using the word squire made me suspicious, but that word confirmed it.

I had a similar thought, and wondered if something like drawing out the time of the contest might be something Taravangian might try to win. But the problem with Dalinar trying to get the other shards to help is that he had seen Tanavast trying to do that exact same thing before, and they didn't help. That would achieve nothing but delaying the problem. Again. Dalinar is a first rate general, and if his son is a good Towers player, you can bet Dalinar is too. He almost certainly knew about the kind of situation that May and Adolin showed Yanagon. That's what that entire scene was meant to show. That sometimes the worst position to be in is the one with the most power. Dalinar guessed, correctly, that Taravangian wouldn't be able to resist taking up Honor's power and that once he did, the other shards wouldn't ignore him anymore.

Wild idea. Maybe Sazed become Discord, but that ends up causing the shards of Honor and Odium to fight against themselves, destroying Taravangian in the process.

It's the intent of the shard that matters, not the vessel, when it comes to protecting. Dalinar cared about protecting Roshar, but the shard of Honor didn't. That's why the shattered plains were so messed up after Tanavast and Rayse fought there. The shard of Preservation cared about protecting the people of Skadriel, not just Vin. And if I'm right and such clashes have happened before, then the shard of Devotion likely cared enough to prevent such destruction too.