Letryx13

The problem with that argument is that the members of Bridge 4 were all extremely damaged, except for maybe Lopen. Rock acknowledged that he wanted to die, Kaladin almost threw himself into the chasms, and Teft still hated himself for what happened to his family because of him. On top of that, Moash was already planning on how to kill Elhokar before he got put in the bridge crews. As for Moash's grandparents, the truth of the matter is, we still have absolutely no idea how exactly they died. We do not know that they were murdered. While it's certainly possible that the conditions of the Kholinar dungeons could have contributed to their deaths, at 75 years old, it's entirely possible, and not unlikely, that they died of natural causes. The prison in Dalinar's war camp, the only actual Alethi prison we've seen, wasn't exactly inhumane. And it's not unreasonable to assume that the Kholinar dungeons were similar. Moreover, there's no proof that they were guilty or innocent of the crime they were accused of. Would Moash's actions still be so justified if his grandparents were guilty of what they'd been accused of? Would Moash even care? The heralds situation is a little more complicated. It's one thing for someone to act out of vengeance, it's another when they're not mentally stable. Believe me, Nalan is a herald I would love to have words with about some of the stuff he's pulled, but that much torture changes who a person is, without that person choosing to change. And that's not even considering whatever supernatural element might be involved in their insanity, if Dalinar is correct. Whatever horrors Moash went through in the bridge crews, and like you I don't belittle those horrors, he came to the shattered plains with the specific intention of getting a shard blade to get revenge. And as we see with Kaladin, a desire for revenge can change a person as much as anything. The heralds minds are broken, and while Moash certainly was broken by the bridge crews, Moash himself admits that Kaladin re-forged him before he threw everything away. Having said all of that, I don't disagree with your assessment of the idea that anyone could be pushed to such actions, under the right (or wrong) circumstances. Kaladin once described the bridgemen as like animals, that morals couldn't apply to someone who'd been beaten down so badly, showing that pretty much anyone can be reduced to such a state. And I don't disagree with your point about war. War isn't about glory. It's death, destruction, and pain without end. It's a necessary evil at times, and evil changes people.

Hard to say on that one. We know, thanks to Dalinar's vision of the Recreance, that not all spren turned into dead eye blades are currently accounted for. So it's possible that they're in some other state besides shard blades. But I think there's some massive cash of blades and plate in the Shinnovar mountains or somewhere on the western section of Roshar.

Actually, I think I derailed it, by accident. So I'm making this one post about it and that's it. To the past several posts, I can see both sides of this argument. I do think Dalinar makes a good point about Kaladin managing to change things by distinguishing himself. The current Kaladin might be considered light eyed, but it's well known that he used to be dark eyed, and that sort of reputation can change people's opinions. And certainly seems to have had an impact on the people in Uritheru. On the other hand, Dalinar comes off as more than a little condescending. But I agree that Dalinar's handling of the situation overall seems very militaristic, and I think that is the appropriate approach. He is the commanding officer, and Kaladin chose to be a captain underneath him. Dalinar gave Kaladin more of a chance than likely anyone ever had, and showed him respect. But because of Kaladin's history with light eyes, Kaladin didn't trust Dalinar. Didn't trust him not to take everything from him, and didn't trust him to take his words seriously. When Kaladin didn't see anything happening to Amaram after he told Dalinar about what happened, he assumed Dalinar wasn't doing anything instead of following up with him. That shows that Kaladin wasn't being reasonable either. Understandable, given the situation, but still. As for why Dalinar didn't tell Kaladin about what Adolin was doing or about continuing to investigate, I have some guesses. He probably wanted to let Adolin be the one to reveal what he'd done, maybe to help them get along better. And as for not telling about the plan with the shardblade and Amaram, I would guess that he didn't tell anyone other than Navani and Bordin. He probably wanted to keep that secret to as few people as possible. We don't even know when Adolin or Renarin found out. I don't like how he handled the situation, but it doesn't seem like he acted as he did out of disrespect to Kaladin. On the other hand, the real problem in my mind was never that Kaladin accused Amaram. It's the fact that he did so without evidence. Dalinar asked if he had any when Kaladin first brough it up, but Kaladin didn't have any. If Kaladin had thought to try and find any kind of proof to support his claims, that would have changed everything (Syl would have been extremely helpful in that regard). What were Dalinar and the King supposed to do? Publicly take the word of one man against eighteen? Those are my thoughts. If you want to discuss that more, let's start a new thread.

Kaladin makes that exact same argument to Dalinar while imprisoned in WoR. And I don't disagree that it is unfair how powerful people are able get away with much more than people without such power. But it is equally unfair to judge two people the same way when they involved in situations that were obviously different.

I'm not sympathetic to the old Dalinar. I have rationally analyzed and given specific examples of why he was terrible, but not so far gone as to say he was beyond redemption. What he did in his past, at the Rift especially, was terrible, even horrifying. But there were always signs of redeeming qualities in Dalinar, even at his worst. Sparing a "brave boy", snapping out of his rage at the sight of his brother's welcoming smile, and my personal favorite. "It is enough. Let the rest of the people of the city escape out of the mouth of the canyon below. We have sent our signal." Even being influenced by Odium, even encouraged by Sade's, and despite being double crossed by the Rifters, Dalinar was able to draw the line before complete destruction. What redeeming qualities does Moash possess? If he was in denial, then he wouldn't have tried to say that he was sorry. And if he was legitimately sorry, then he would have been able to say it. It's like being sorry for getting caught doing something, not sorry for the act itself.

Difficulty dealing with pain is one thing. Not admitting fault and being unable to honestly say you're sorry, despite trying to do so, is something else altogether.

He only denied being responsible for Evi's death, he never tried to avoid responsibility for the Rift as a whole. Not that I can remember anyway. And he never intended to destroy the city completely, as I've repeatedly said. He wanted to send a message about the costs of rebellion and betrayal, and Sadeas took it further than he intended. Terrible yes, but not evil. How were they supposed to stop a city planning to revolt? Ask them nicely? Dalinar offered them a way out and was betrayed. He denied responsibility for Evi at first, but only in his own head. But I agree, Dalinar attempted to settle things peacefully and the Rifters tried to assassinate him. Things went further than Dalinar intended, but it's the difference in reaction that's so critical in assessing the difference between Dalinar and Moash. Dalinar realized the horror of what they had done almost immediately, and that knowledge haunted him for years. As soon as Moash saw a way to excuse his behavior, he immediately took it.

Working on a Progression/Gravitation order that act as mobile doctors. Will provide details when further developed.

To your original point, about Odium forcing Dalinar to free him, it almost certainly wouldn't work. The reason why Dalinar can free Odium is because he represents Honor. Odium specifically states that what's keeping him bound is Honor's restrictions (likely an oath made from Odium to Honor), and Dalinar can ease them, as he represents Honor. But if Dalinar belonged to Odium, which if will if he loses the contest, then he won't represent Honor anymore. So Dalinar wouldn't be able to free Odium anymore.

Agreed. No one is saying what Dalinar did is ok, least of all Dalinar himself, but how he responded to the events is completely different from Moash. I admit, I think the circumstances should play a big factor is how terrible an act is, but it's how his regret manifests that sets the two of them apart. What's more, Dalinar sought out the Night Watcher of his own accord. He made the choice to change. The problem is that just when it starts to look like Moash is beginning to recognize how terrible his actions were, he drops all signs of guilt when he sees things he doesn't like. When he discovers that dark eyes haven't used the desolation as a way of overthrowing light eyes, he immediately concludes that he's not the one who's broken, but everyone else is. He uses that as a way to excuse everything he did. And that's about the time that Odium starts to influence Moash. In fairness to Dalinar, the Rift was a city in rebellion. A battle of some sort was a foregone conclusion. And Dalinar never wanted it to go as far as it did. But Evi aside, it's his reaction to the horror he unleashed that's the real difference. He admits that they went to far, despite Sadeas saying otherwise. And then spends years trying to overcome the knowledge that he was to blame. And it's not a matter of Moash's crimes being worse or better than Dalinar's. It's a question of whether or not he's able to own up to them and try to atone. Which, so far, he hasn't, despite at one point being freed from Odium's influence.

Considering what happened with Seon's (which if they're not spren, they're definitely spren-adjacent) in a very similar situation, if a large scale healing takes place and the damage is repaired, it will very likely restore them to what they were. The damage is definitely more extensive to dead eyes, but was caused by a similar damaging of their world. Part of me really likes the idea of Adolin restoring Maya without becoming a Radiant. He's the only main character that isn't invested, at this point. And I think it's good to show characters without powers making an impact. Sanderson did a good job of that in several of his other stories. That said, I think he will end up as Maya's knight. It seems a lot like how Kaladin never wanted a shard blade, passed on owning one twice, and thought owning one would change who he was, but has never seemed to have a problem using Syl as one. He might not like being a light eyes, but he's never resented having her as his blade. The way Adolin doesn't want to be a Radiant feels similar. Kaladin probably still doesn't really want a shard blade, but he's fine with having Syl as one. Adolin didn't want to be a WindRunner when his father suggested it, and doesn't want a spren's ideals to impact his life, but he'd probably be ok with being a Radiant, if it meant being Maya's knight. Adolin and Kaladin are very similar, as has been pointed out both in universe and out. They'd probably have a similar response to change in circumstances and responsibility.

That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking. But here's the interesting point. It didn't require releasing BAM to restore the singers, so what other options might there be to restore the dead eye spren? Somehow restoring the shard of Honor and having a new one take Tanvast's place is about all I can think of. Maybe Cultivation could do something, but if could/would she probably would have done so already.

BondSmiths can do so many crazy things that it would be hard to nail down what their resonance would be. I thought about this when trying to invent my own order on another thread, but Some ideas that I came up with are enhanced mathematical ability (TruthWatchers maybe) enhanced senses (maybe StoneWards to feel vibrations in the stone) and enhanced aim (DustBringers to help them control division.)

Well, as far as we know, Adolin is the only person wielding a dead eye blade to actually see that spren in Shadesmar form. Perhaps the shard bearers know what they wield now, but that's not the same as seeing them as people instead of weapons. Adolin even refers to Pattern and Syl as the souls of Shallan and Kaladin's shard blades when they first enter Shadesmar. Seeing Maya as a full bodied person changed things for him, I think. I also agree with most of the people on this thread that Adolin being an EdgeDancer type of person played a roll in Maya's recovery. But what I've found interesting before is that they dead eye spren are very similar to what the singers were like as Parshmen.

I was mostly focusing on how three of your ideals focus on changing things, but that's reasonable. I was also thinking of how Pattern told Shallan she had changed Vatha and the others right after she met them in the Frostlands.

Thank you, that's kind of what I was aiming for. I think we had some similar ideas, but I think you need the surge of Transformation.

Order: Life Givers, people who like to help and find purpose in people relying on them Surges: Progression and Transformation True Spren- Cooperation Spren, nickname Builders Plate Spren- Hunger Spren Resonance-Enhanced mathematical skill. Useful for determining how much food communities need. Ideal Theme-Supporting life and growth, usually in a charity kind of way Ideals; First-Oath of Radiance Second-I will guard growth and support life Third-I will teach those who need it to support themselves Fourth-I will accept the taking of life, if it is done in the service of life Fifth-I will leave when I am no longer needed Not completely sure about the order of the third and fourth ideals, but I think they're both appropriate. I drew inspiration for this from the Wizard's oath from the Young Wizards series and a couple of other sources.

At one point Moash even mentions in Oathbringer about how he's felt like an outsider his entire life. He feels like Bridge 4 are the only ones that ever let him into their group, which was a "special case" and he'd failed that test. And Moash definitely felt like Bridge 4 was something special. He challenged Kaladin about turning on a member of Bridge 4 more than once. He may not be able to let go of his connection to Kaladin, but that doesn't mean Odium's connection didn't remove his negative emotions about Kaladin. Moash's desire for Kaladin to either join Odium or end his life is more about rationalizing his choices. I think in Moash's mind, if the person he respects the most gives up, then Moash can argue that nobody wouldn't have given up in his situation. That's rationalizing, not emotion. My guess is that Moash's eyes won't heal is similar to how Kaladin's slave brands didn't heal until his fourth ideal. Moash's stubborn refusal to accept that he was wrong, his desire to shut his eyes to the truth, is what's causing his blindness. Unless he's willing to let go of that, admit he was wrong, and atone, then there's no hope for redemption. And it doesn't seem like he's on the path to do all of that.

Agreed. This is the other main argument argument against Moash's redemption. Even when freed of Odium's influence, he makes the same selfish choices. It makes no sense that he's denying that he's sorry. He tries to say that he's sorry but isn't able to bring himself to say the words.

Nightblood is my favorite character ( if you can call him that) in Warbreaker. I loved the perky voice the audio books give him, and he does seem smarter, since he questions Vasher’s actions in nearly strangling a servant while sneaking into the palace. But then again, he was probably held by Vasher for many years before the events of WarBreaker happened, so they knew each other quite well.

I think it's less of an addiction and more of a painkiller for pain he can't stand. But the difference is small, I admit. At this point, about the only thing I can think of that could redeem him would be for him to help determine the outcome of the contest of champions in Dalinar's favor. I still think there's a good chance that Kaladin will end up as Dalinar's champion, and Kaladin is the one thing Moash hasn't completely let go of. I think that's mostly out of gratitude and respect for Kaladin, but there's a slim possibility. But I think it's extremely unlikely. The reason why I have a hard time believing in a Moash redemption arc is because he hasn't shown any redeeming qualities. Even when Dalinar was at his worst he showed some restraint and could acknowledge some of his mistakes. Ehlokar wasn't a good king, but he showed the desire to do better and try to be a better one, and was even willing to step down to let Dalinar become king at one point. And when Kaladin wanted to let Ehlokar be killed, he started to question his decision once he was presented with information that contradicted the idea that the king was a monster. Kaladin struggled with it, but he was able to admit that he'd been wrong. The most important qualities in redemption are humility and a desire to change, I think. And I don't think Moash has either of them. And without them, there's no chance at redemption.

Honestly, I always assumed Hoid was just making a jab at Cultivation by calling her a dragon. He alluded to her in WoR, saying the only woman his age and he never get along. So I thought he was just slinging a little mud in calling her a dragon.

Hard agree on the Moash analysis. People who know they're in the wrong often try to rationalize their behavior. Not so sure I agree with that on Dalinar though. He probably does want to prove Taravangian wrong, but I don't think it's anything like the force pushing Moash.

I don't think he's "lost" that excuse, exactly. I think he still blames the murders on the people of Shinovar who called him a Truthless. But I'd bet good money that it's something that's going to be explored in book 5. Kaladin called him out on it in their fight at the end of WoR, and since they're both going to Shinovar in book 5, Szeth's responsibility for his actions is almost certainly going to come up. When he finally believed he wasn't Truthless, he stopped holding to the idea that he had to hold to the rules of a Truthless. He'd wanted to die for a good while before then, he just finally beleived he could honorably allow himself to die. Answering both above quotes. I think it's more that Moash wants Kaladin to give up to justify his own giving up. Kaladin is someone that Moash respects and admires, even now. In Moash's mind, if even someone as great as Kaladin quits, then it's ok that he did too. He's trying to rationalize all the terrible things he's done.

Agreed. Simply put, Szeth was misguided and Moash is selfish.