Letryx13

I said almost identical, not exactly. The damage in my example was done when the Aon’s shapes no longer matched the land. And specifically done to the Seon’s when they became bonded to someone connected to that damaged power. The powers of Devotion and Dominion are tied to precise shape of things in the different ways they are channeled, via Aon’s or the other methods. The damage to the spren specifically happened when oaths were broken, but they only became dead-eyes after Bah-Ado-Mishram was imprisoned. BAM’s imprisonment damaged Roshar, not Honor’s power. The power of Honor is tied to oaths. It’s when the spren or Seon is connected to a person and the power is damaged at the same time that dead-eyes or the equivalent are formed. Just like how Seon’s who weren’t bonded to Ellantrians didn’t change during the Reod.

BAM was probably imprisoned before all the radiants ended the orders. The imprisoning of the unmade damaged Roshar, according to Kellek. And we've seen something almost identical happen before.

I'd forgotten about that conversation with the street girl. They play it off as Lift just knowing it from the streets, but that could be stronger evidence that she's a BondSmith than anything else. Ok, I'm a little more open to this idea now. Not so sure about that one. I doubt the proximity matters, just the bond itself. I think the spren don't like having to share the energy from thoughts and emotions they get from their human.

I see the state of dead eye spree as similar to the parshmen. It took the everstorm to bring them back, so it will probably take something similarly poweful. The storm father called the everstorm his opposite, which implies it’s as powerful as he is, or close to. And since the unmade are about as powerful as the storm father, there is a logical train of thought that leads to releasing BAM is the key to restoring the dead eyes

It's an interesting idea. I lean more toward the theory that Cultivation intends for Lift to be her successor, but this could work. One thing I've noticed is that despite repeated references to her, we haven't actually seen the NightWatcher except in Dalinar's flashback. Dalinar, Terravangian, Lift, and others talk or think about her, but we've only seen her or witnessed her direct actions on that one occasion. Lift being a BondSmith would explain a few things, certainly. Her ability to create LifeLight and her remaining conscious when the tower's protections were turned against the radiants, for example. But has she shown any specific BondSmith powers, such as Adhesion? Aside from drawing in Stormlight to heal himself, the first time Dalinar uses his powers (actively) is to glue Kadash to the floor. Yes, each BondSmith has unique abilities, like Dalinar and the StormFather's visions, but I'd bet the basic surges are still something they share. And we haven't seen her swearing any oaths other than EdgeDancer oaths. I mean, the book where she swore her third ideal was titled EdgeDancer. I do think the NightWatcher will (finally) play a direct roll in book 5. I read a theory a while back about the way to defeat Odium involving using the StormFather as a blade. That much concentrated investiture would be even stronger than NightBlood. But if the StormFather isn't keeping the storm going, does that mean the high storms will stop altogether? Maybe. Unless, someone else does the job for a while. If another spren, close enough in strength to the StormFather, were to do the job for a while. Kind of like how Hercules holds up the sky for Atlas in Greek mythology. But Lift as both and EdgeDancer and BondSmith? That does sound interesting. Sanderson confirms that spren don't like to share their people (just ask Syl in OathBringer when she's swatting away glory spren from Kaladin) but I have wondered if someone could be suited to multiple orders. The reason why Rlain and Dabbid didn't end up as WindRunner squires (in my opinion) is because they are better suited to different orders. But is it possible for someone to be a good fit for both a cultivation spren and an honor spren? Who knows?

Yeah, and the EdgeDancers were supposed to the orders with a lot of religious leaders. Which makes sense as they are often the type that help common every day people; remembering the forgotten and listening to the ignored, so to speak.

On the other hand, there are the Shards Ambition, Mercy, and Devotion, all of which seem like they could be related to emotions too. Ambition (not the Shard) and passion seem like they could overlap somewhat. People's passions and ambitions often tie together, being the best at a sport, for example. And mercy and devotion (still not Shards) seem like positive emotions compared to Odium's (the Shard) negative emotions like craving or fury. I think Odium could embody negative emotions such as fear, anger, and hate in general. Not just hatred. I think there's a WoB about how Odium could have been a Shard of fear not hatred, so I think negative emotions in general are a good description of him.

I suspect if anyone ever directly asked Odium about this, he would say other emotions weren't "true" passions. The Shards don't seem to lie much, but a lot of what they say is open to interpretation. It might have been interesting if the Shards were incapable of lying at all, but we've seen other Shards beside Odium outright lie before, so that doesn't quite work.

Even Honor said that to speak of the future was forbidden. He was wary of trying to predict events.

I'm happy to be a TruthWatcher. I've only taken the test once, but I'm about to go take it again after seeing this. I consider the surge of Progression to be one of the most practical surges (second only to Transformation) and from what I've heard Sanderson has said about Illumination, it could be a lot more interesting (and powerful) than I once assumed.

In RoW, Odium states that the reason Dalinar can ease the restrictions on him is because he represents Honor. Dalinar is bonded to the Stormfather, who contains what remains of Tanavast's soul, which I think is the main reason he represents Honor.

I wonder if its even possible to use the other divine metals for the metallic arts. But for Raysium, I'd say passion (as much as it pains me to say it) and for Tanavasium, I'd agree with several of the others and say self control or something similar.

I like most of these, except Moash and Dabbid. Considering the choices Moash has made, I can't see him ever swearing the oaths. But I had an idea about Dabbid. Dabbid seems much more of an ElseCaller than anything else. He wants to become a Radiant to heal his mind, and thinks of the idea in an almost reverent way. That strikes me as the mindset of an ElseCaller, the order that focuses on reaching their full potential, which is what Dabbid seems to want. It's why he couldn't be a WindRunner squire, I think. He is almost certainly worthy to be a Radiant, but he lacks the connection to the right order. Rlain might have had a similar problem, although that's kind of iffy when you take Renarin into account. But Yalb as a WillShaper, Hesina as a TruthWatcher, and Balat as a DustBringer all seem like perfect matches.

I've heard that one too, somewhere. That the WindRunner needs to remember to protect themselves too. This one also seems like a serviceable fifth ideal. That seems like a stretch, considering the third ideal.

Actually, having some sort of animal companion that varies among the orders might work. And it would suggest that some intelligent breeds of animals are the "reward" of achieving the fifth ideal. Larkin are intelligent, along with Ryshadium and apparently Chasmfiends. If we can find 7 other intelligent animals on Roshar, it could work. But I think Renarin points out that Ryshadium are better suited to Roshar, so I think they are the ones native to Roshar, while regular horses are descended from Ashyn horses. Shinovar breeds horses that seem more normal, which supports that.

Maybe Balat Davar. Shallan's brother, the one who liked to kill cremlings.

That seems even more like a BondSmith ideal. Except it's more about giving up power than delegation. It's been brought up several times, by Sadeas, Amarama, Wit, and even Jasnah, that Dalinar has trouble letting go of power. I'd bet money that giving up power under the right circumstances is the fourth or fifth BondSmith ideal. But I suppose they're not dissimilar. If I had to guess, the wording will be something like, "I will not interfere, when I am not needed."

I think there's a reference to Radiants having Ryshadium during the desolations in WoR. It doesn't feel right for all the orders, since two orders (arguably four) have a means of transportation superior to that of Ryshadium. But I do like the idea of them gaining them at the fifth ideal. Wit commented that there's only one dragon on Roshar that he knows of, but I think that's supposed to be a dig at Cultivation.

The problem with that is that it's themed more about taking responsibility, not protecting. That seems more in line with a BondSmith ideal than a Windrunner's. The only thing I've read that feels anything close right for Kaladin's fifth ideal is to let people protect themselves, if they can. It came up in RoW, when Kaladin's inner monologue was that the hardest thing for him to do was nothing. This was when Leshwi was dueling, and defeating, Sigzil. I'm not sure if this is the best idea for his fifth ideal, but it's the best I've seen.

I was going to put something to this effect, but you beat me to it. Haha.

What are regular humans? Besides, a random person who steals an honor blade isn't likely to hold on to it for very long. Sooner or later, it's likely to pass into the hands of someone who knows how to use it, or is smart enough to figure out how. The ghost bloods had a soul caster and had at least one member that knew how to use it. What happens if someone like Mraize got his hands on an honor blade? And even if the other powers of an honor blade aren't that impressive, or useful combatively, tracking down someone using an honorblade for dangerous purposes would be difficult. The WindRunner and SkyBreaker blades could allow for someone to fly away, and the LightWeaver, Elsecaller, and WillShaper blades could let them slip into Shadesmar. Unless the radiant had the same powers, they wouldn't be able to follow them. And if they were in fact able to slip into ShadesMar, the radiants would be unarmed if they followed. I don't think the SkyBreakers will be positive, exactly. I think they will act as some kind of neutral third party between nations. Even if they just managed to escape, that's dangerous enough. If they attacked somewhere, then managed to escape before radiants could be called to stop them, or even after they arrived, they could attack somewhere else. Kaladin managed to defeat full shard bearers twice before earning his blade. One without stormlight. I admit, justice is a subjective concept (if you're into anime, check out One Piece sometime) and can be interpreted as differently as morality. But the point I'm trying to make is that at least the oaths give some measure of guidance to the radiance, and acts as some level of check against the misuse of the power. Is it perfect? Of course not. There is no such thing as an absolute check against power. But while it's imperfect, it's better than something that has no checks at all, like the Honorblades. Lying to yourself, saying that something is ok, even when you know it is wrong, is wrong in and of itself. That's why Shallan's bond with Pattern would have been threatened. Shallan was literally arguing with herself over the morality of what she was doing. When have we seen the impact not being a positive thing? It's never been easy for any of the Radiants that we've seen (except maybe Lopen with his second). Kaladin found the strength the fight again after his second, overcame his hatred of Elhokar after his third, and his shame over Tien's death after his fourth. Dalinar found purpose with his second and accepted responsibility after his third. Teft started to forgive himself for his past after his third. Yes, Shallan struggled after her second Ideal, but that was when she started to face her past, acknowledging who she was not the monster she thought she was, despite her actions. The oaths are painful, but becoming a better person isn't always easy. And that light weaving fuzed managed to make off with a gemstone worth a fortune and capable of containing one of the unmade. And while the Skybreakers have been employed as soldiers, and likely Moash as well, that's an overt use of them. They haven't been used covertly, that we know of, but that's the greater concern. Someone with an honor blade could pop up anywhere they find a place that doesn't have radiants close by and attack. Killing and/or stealing and escaping before someone managed to contact Uritheru for help. I think guerrilla warfare is a much more dangerous use of the honorblades than traditional battles.

What has the StormFather lied about? He's been mistaken about some things, but as far as I know he hasn't outright lied. And we've only seen three wielders of HonorBlades so far. Discounting Ishar, that leaves Szeth and Moash, two whole examples. And who knows how exactly such powers are obtained. Sadeas did, and had the power and brains to pull off something like that. Nobody knew the Shinn had them. And the radiants destroyed so much knowledge of the past that almost nobody understood what the honorblades even were. Aside from holding someone they care about hostage, or using so many radiants they make the honor blade redundant, how do you keep that kind of power in check? Even radiants have to sleep. Or they could run out of stormlight. Or just be caught by surprise at the wrong time. Bridge four had Jezrien's blade stolen from them, didn't they? I believe the codes that Dalinar follows include something about not ordering something you wouldn't do yourself. If an assassination is needed badly enough that radiants would approve of it, then they should be able to carry it out. I don't think that would happen often, cases like Rashek on Scadrial for example, but they could happen. Which means the Honorblade ends up in the wrong hands, one way or another. This is my entire point. Based on the descriptions of the SkyBreakers and their philosophies, I find it to be very difficult to believe that they could think anarchy is correct. Anarchy is the exact opposite of codes and laws. Swearing to someone like Taravangian on the other hand, I admit that's much more likely, and is basically what's happened with them and Nale already. But on the other hand, what if that oath interfered with their oaths to seek justice and let it guide them? Unless they believe that there is justice in their actions, they may still be violating their oaths by doing something evil, even if they've sworn to obey someone like Taravangian. The reason they are able to fight on the singer's side is because they can see the validity of the Singer's cause. The truths we've seen so far are pretty much all negative, that's the entire reason Shallan has lied to herself for so long. In facts that's arguably the entire basis of lying to oneself., and the order of LightWeavers as a whole. There still needs to be a basis of honor and worthiness in the radiant. Shallan/Radiant may have killed Ialai, but she was a threat at the time. If Shallan had killed Kelek when she knew it was wrong, that might have been enough of a lie to herself to kill Pattern. Or start her on the path toward killing him. If you mean Kaladin, even before the fight in the arena, Kaladin knew that assassinating Sadeas was wrong. He couldn't explain it to himself why he felt that way, but he knew it. He mulled the idea over in the tavern before meeting Graves. He knew things like that were wrong, he was just willing to ignore that because of how Elhokar treated him. That's why he lost his powers over it. Sorry, I didn't explain that very well. I meant, that way, even if someone stole the BondSmith blade, they wouldn't be able to undo the protection binding the blade in place. You'd need at least two BondSmiths to undo the protection. Admittedly, BondSmith powers are so complex that it's hard to believe a thief could learn to undo them anyway, but still, if someone being taught how to use the blade were tempted, they'd be unable to steal it. I wouldn't be surprised if the Honorblades did turn out to be more powerful. The StormFather confirmed Jezrien's HonorBlade makes someone "A WindRunner unoathed, and more. More that men do not understand and can not". I suspect there's more to them than we've yet seen. But that's unimportant. And while I expect WindRunners will probably find future purpose as bodyguards after the war, an unexpected surgebinder could still be a huge threat. Someone who stole an honor blade might not necessarily try to use it right away. They could take some time to learn how to use the powers. Yes, people know about radiants, but soliders or guards or regular people suddenly finding themselves attacked by someone they think is a radiant is still going to be shocking. That kind of confusion was what Szeth relied on. I know that soldiers have trained to deal with regals and perhaps some kinds of fuzed, but how hard would it be for someone wielding an Honorblade to overwhelm soldiers being attacked by powers they weren't expecting? If the honorblade wielder were competent, how many people would it take to defeat them? Even at the battle of Narak, when Szeth's abilities were less of a surprise, he overwhelmed dozens of soldiers. Love the arguments, guys. It feels great to be able to flesh out these kinds of thoughts.

Depending on how sane the person with the HonorBlade was, I'd say it could be very likely. True, someone could try to sell it, but it'd be hard to try to sell an HonorBlade without word getting out, and in that case, I'd just try to kill the person instead of buying it. Even radiants have to sleep. Besides, from what the books have described, people selling even dead-eye blades seems very very rare. Transactions like that, even underground ones, are bound to attract attention. And even if it was sold, then what? Some new power crazy person willing to spend a fortune on the blade has it. Why would they be willing to spend that much money on such a weapon? I doubt SkyBreakers could swear to anarchy. Laws are fundamentally about order, so that seems a bit of a stretch. Even Szeth isn't planning on wiping out Shinovar completely, just cleansing it of the people who wrongfully convicted him. The second ideal for them is to seek justice and let it guide them. True, they could have a very twisted sense of justice, but according to Nale, the SkyBreakers are about consistency. And it seems unlikely the high spren would choose radiants who would do such things. Aside from the ash spren, the spren have chosen well in regards to radiants. (I don't consider the SkyBreakers to be bad, just misguided). This extends to the LightWeavers and Cryptics too. With the possible exception of Hoid (the jury is still out on him), the Cryptics seem to have chosen well with their radiants. True, being honest about themselves to their spren is essential to the LightWeavers, but Pattern and Shallan prove even the Cryptics try to help guide their radiants. When Shallan was handing out food in Kholinar, Pattern questioned why she was doing so, when it wasn't part of their mission. He realized she was lying to herself too much. I think worthiness is a big factor for spren in choosing their radiant. Except for the ash spren seeking revenge, perhaps. I am actually curious about what would happen if a Radiant truly went insane. Full on delusional insanity, like Taln. Venli's mother recovered from what sounds like Alzheimer's, which suggests some kinds of mental illness isn't applicable to radiants, but obviously Kaladin proves other kinds are. That's one I don't really have an answer for. Nale is crazy, but even in his madness, he follows the precepts of his oaths, doing what he believes is right. He was stubborn in refusing to acknowledge the desolations return, but he eventually realized he had been wrong. I don't think we have enough context to answer what happens if a radiant truly goes insane. Nohadon said that in reference to his belief that the surgebinders needed rules and regulations. They were probably pretty chaotic before the oaths. I admit that they might be worth hanging on to. To heal old wounds and teach people how to use the powers when there aren't available radiants to learn. I just think they need to have an extreme amount of security before it's safe to do so. One idea I had was to find a way to bind the HonorBlades to a specific place, making it impossible to move them too far from it. That seems like something a BondSmith could do, maybe even have both Dalinar and Navani do so together, to prevent a single BondSmith from being able to undo it. And Szeth proved quite thoroughly how superior the Honorblades are to dead plate and blades. True, few people knew about surgebinding at the time, but he still managed to decimate three shard bearers and "half an army" when killing the king of Herdaz.

Less dangerous that a completely unstable and uncontrolled power. The only reason they're dangerous is because they're sworn to follow someone who is insane. Besides, if and when peace is established it's very likely they'll act as a policing or border regulation force. That's not the same as an unknown quantity with powers described as being "more that men do not understand and can not". How successful was it historically? The orders had internal conflict before the recreance. Honor, the gemstones left behind by the ancient radiants, and even the Invisagers all confirm the orders were not perfectly harmonious. Granted, the recreance changed things in a big way for the DustBringers (who I suspect will still be stubborn, despite the truth of that being revealed) but what will the SkyBreakers do after peace is established? It seems highly unlikely that they will continue to wage war on human kingdoms. Besides, we know that they still work to some degree. When Kaladin went against his oaths, he lost his powers. Perhaps, but Kaladin is described as being the most skill WindRunner when it comes to flying and possibly fighting. Yes, Szeth is also extremely skilled, but that's the point. A highly skill fighter with an HonorBlade could likely only be taken down by a Radiant of comparable skill. And to quote Stormblessed, "Being a radiant isn't so much about your strength or skill. But about your heart." Most radiants probably wouldn't be able to defeat someone at Szeth's level. And if they weren't WindRunners, they'd have a hard time catching him. Or if the person had the LightWeaver blade, they'd have a hard time finding them in the first place. That actually is something I've wondered about. If it's possible for heralds to have plate. Aside from Nale, who probably has one as a SkyBreaker. It seems strange that they wouldn't. But depending on the matchup, plate might not help much. Szeth and Kaladin both defeated multiple shard bearers with plate. Obviously they didn't have surgebinding, but that might not help someone in disguise with the LightWeaver blade, or catch someone with the WindRunner blade without flying themselves. Radiants are definitely a check on the HonorBlades power, to be sure. But as I constantly say, how much damage could someone with an HonorBlade do before Radiants arrived to stop them? DustBringers are somewhat concerning, I admit. But I could see them going either way. I'm curious to see what the dead-eye Ash spren say when they find out what their fellows are rebelling. And I'm still not exactly sure how a radiant can truly go rogue unless they believe in what they're doing. I find it hard to believe someone that would kill people for fun or money would be chose as a radiant, even by an Ash spren. As for the SkyBreakers, they're only dangerous at the moment because of the war itself. Until the laws they enforce are at the same level of brutality as the Final Empire on Scadrial, I wouldn't consider them as dangerous. Radiants may very well choose to go their own way eventually, apart from the bulk of the orders. That seems likely. But how likely are such people to start attacking people for no reason or for profit? Their situation is fragile, as commented by both Kaladin and Rlain in RoW, but you're correct the HonorBlades aren't the problem there. I just think that's an additional risk to them, aside from the possibility of them falling into the wrong hands. 6. Nalan is insane, which is why he believes in what he is doing. But the heralds' insanity is not a natural madness, as confirmed in RoW. I have my issues with Nale's brutality, believe me I do, but that kind of madness makes it hard to compare motivation to someone who is of sound mind. Jasnah has also shown that she's willing to kill people :for the greater good" (don't get me started on her) but even still, neither of them are just killing people for the fun of it. 3. Kaladin and Syl's conversations in Oathbringer confirm the oaths are largely about perception of right and wrong and adhering to principles. And Dalinar's vision with Nohadon also supports the idea of principles being what someone gives up, not what they gain. 2. The StormFather confirms that Jezrien's HonorBlade makes someone "A WindRunner unoathed, and more. More that men do not understand and can not". We still don't know what that means, but I'd be willing to bet there's more power to the HonorBlades than we've seen yet. And honestly, I've always found it strange that the Heradlds don't have shard plate. Dalinar even assumes that a StoneWard in a vision is a herald. 4. Giving someone power comes with risk. Giving someone power with no checks against that power comes with far greater risk. 1. Feruchemy seems plenty destructive, if used in the right way. And even if a BondSmith could directly destroy as much as say a DustBringer could, one could still cause plenty of damage indirectly. Imagine if the StormFather was imprisoned the same was as an unmade. Bridge Four was attacked in Oathbringer to get the HonorBlade. On Roshar, thousands of soldiers have thrown themselves at shard bearers to try and win them, maybe millions. How many would throw themselves trying to get an Honor Blade? Bridger Four were squires when they lost Jezrien's HonorBlade. What job would an unbound surgebinder be able to do that radiant couldn't and any decent person would want to be done?

I've had that idea as well, actually. It wouldn't be a terrible solution, but only if there were existing (and trustworthy) radiants to pass the blades on to. The SkyBreakers might be misguided, but there's a big difference between that and some nutcase doing whatever they please. When Kaladin acted on his selfish impulses that he knew were wrong, he nearly killed Syl and lost his powers. The SkyBreakers aren't going around murdering people for fun or profit, they are at least holding to their beliefs. Yes, the damage wouldn't be as severe with other Radiants to act as a check, but the HonorBlades could also be used to frame the orders for crimes they hadn't committed. People on Roshar are only just starting to accept the Radiants again. It wouldn't take much to undo that. 1. It's pretty simple actually. If all surgebinding is dangerous, why wouldn't the order that has access to the greatest surges (confirmed by the StormFather) be the most dangerous? 2. Again, the oaths offer at least some kind of check on the Radiant's powers. That's pretty much the reason they exist in the first place. I can't remember the line exactly, but I believe Nohadon thought surge binders were dangerous unless they were bound by precepts and laws. When Kaladin started acting against them, he lost his powers. The only way for Radiant's to go rogue is if they believe in what they are doing. The SkyBreakers prove that can be dangerous, but that's not as dangerous as a weapon that anyone can use and get the same level of power. 3. Are the SkyBreakers or DustBringers murdering people for fun or profit? The SkyBreakers may be misguided, but there's at least some level of morality and logic to their actions. The DustBringers may be acting out of revenge, but there's some reasoning there too. They're untrusting of humans for the recreance, and feel their friends and families deserve justice. They're misguided, not evil. 4. I admit they might be useful enough to keep around, if proper safety measure can be taken. The problem is, Kaladin proves that even trustworthy and well meaning radiants can fail. He might not have been willing to cooperate with Elhokar's assignation if he had know it would cost him Syl, but he was still willing to betray his oaths in the first place. This is why I'm wondering if some other kind of safeguard could be created. 6. My point on Nalan was that his madness makes it difficult to compare him to other radiants such as the SkyBreakers and DustBringers and their oaths. Don't forget the Nalan himself also has a high spren, not just an Honor Blade. But you are actually making my point for me. What would happen if that criminally insane schizophrenic had an Honor Blade?