Letryx13

I used to think it was enhanced soulcasting that created Uritheru in the first place, but now we know that's not true. But I bet you could use enhanced StoneWard powers to create things like the windblades or soulcast huge bronze walls like Jasnah did that one time. BondSmith enhanced progression would be interesting. Imagine the kind of food production.

The last blade is Taln's He's the only one of the Heralds that was killed during that desolation, so he's the only one that went to Braize. This is basically confirmed in RoW.

My point exactly. By the time aluminum aluminum would be common enough to use as a weapon (or the alloy they use to make it stronger) guns were available. So it makes no sense for mistborn to be using aluminum daggers. That sound you just heard was me hitting myself in the forehead for getting the surges mixed up.

Kaladin chose to do what he knew to be right, eventually. And he swore an oath to protect people who couldn't protect themselves long before agreeing to anything with Moash. Wouldn't the earlier promise, especially a divine oath, take priority? As for Moash, his word to Graves didn't mean anything to him. He didn't care about Alethkar, he just wanted revenge. But even so, what exactly did Moash promise Graves? All I remember him promising Graves was that Kaladin was trustworthy. Which is true. But are you suggesting that Moash was right to do what he did? Betray the man that had not only led him to freedom from his enslavement, been his best friend, and given him a weapon and armor worth a small kingdom and try to kill him? The man he said would always be his captain, that he would never outrank?

I know living plate heals, but if they're attacking through the eye slit, the only weak spot, then they're likely to injure the radiant. When have we ever seen a MistBorn using an aluminum dagger? Aluminum guns and bullets make sense, but you'd still need to fire point blank to get through the eye slit, or have Waxilium's level of skill. And if the bullet passed through an unarmored Radiant, they'd probably recover. I think it would have to stay lodged in them to kill them. I only use the shardbow as an example against the idea of unvoncentional equipment. It doesn't make sense to consider them using equipment they don't typically use. Although, depending on how the force is considered when steel pushing, if the force the arrow exerts is what the push is against, then perhaps the MistBorn would be the one that moved. Is there a WoB on this? A WoB confirms that electrum can be used to achieve more than what Vin and Elend did with it. Do we know if plate protects against emotional allomancy? If it doesn't, then I'd consider it one of the most effective ways to beat a radiant, considering the mental state of some of them. That's still at least a half dozen different metals at once, taking care of which metals to burn in combination with duralumin. Make a mistake on that one, and the entire reserve is gone, creating an opening. Stormlight greatly enhances reflexes, as Kaladin proved on his first ideal, let alone the second. Large metal objects aren't likely to be used as projectiles, too easy to see and avoid. Screws, nails, or coins make more sense. As for the surges, gravitation could evade the metal or even fire them back at the MistBorn. Transformation could turn the metal into wood from a distance. Abrasion can aid in dodging or having the metal slide off them in the case of glancing hits. Abrasion/cohesion could create stone walls for shields (I think it's the combination of the two that lets StoneWards do things like that). And division could melt the metal or more. A lot of this depends on the environment, unfortunately. It's hard to figure out what a completely even setting would be. An open setting with lots of metal favors the mistborn, but a more closed one or one without lots of metal favors the radiant. Again, stormlight increases stamina and reflexes significantly. Leeching is the main allomantic skill to use against a Radiant. But they'd need to get close enough to the Radiant to leech them, which puts them in range of the Radiant's powers as much as the Radiant is in range of the MistBorn's. And with an extra set of eyes keeping watch, sneeking up is going to be tricky. And at least four orders would be difficult to leech at all, with abrasion and gravitation. Two others can transform things, and three (including the previous two) can look into shadesmar to tell what's happening around them, making it nearly impossible to sneak up on them, making conventional assassination difficult, if not impossible. TruthWatchers are probably the least combat oriented order, so they'd be in real trouble, but StoneWards can make non metal weapons out of almost anything, stone walls to protect from fired metal, and trap a MistBorn when they touched the ground, as Amaram did to Kaladin in their fight. And if the spren is not needed directly to fight as a blade, they they could act as a distraction by yelling in the tin enhanced ear of the MistBorn, taking advantage of that metal's weaknesss. I agree that the envrionment plays a huge roll in this conflict. A city with the mists does play exactly to a MistBorn's strength, but it's not a battlefield that plays to a Radiant's advantage, it's a fight anywhere without lots of metal that plays to the Radiant's advantage. A mist born needs both iron pulling and steel pushing to maximize their maneuverability. Nails and screws don't seem to be used as much since wood isn't the main building material on Roshar, so it'd be harder to find projectiles, other than what they carry. Rosharan's don't even use coins for money. In a forest, the MistBorn is screwed. They could only go so far before they ran out of coins or other things to push on. And even with the mists on Scadrial, there are orders that could circumvent the mist's concealment, with gravitation, transformation, and transportation. Not even taking into account a spren could probably find a MistBorn in the mists. And the problem with saying that with enough Atium they could get rid of the plate is that with enough Stormlight, the plate would just keep healing. PS I love this topic. It's so much fun to debate.

Actually, I consider the Radiant's ability to heal automatically to such an extent to be their most formidable ability. Armor is all well and good, but it can be broken with enough force, and blades are only useful at close range, which any archer could overcome. But to be able to survive any wound short of decapitation, which is about where I draw the line for what a Radiant could recover from, and you've got someone who's nearly unstoppable. Such as Miles Hundredlives, who is admittedly even harder to stop. And as far as blades and plate are concerned, those are directly related to their powers, created by bonding spren, with the plate even feeding off of the Radiant's stormlight. So I don't consider them unconventional or external equipment. If we want to compare Mistborn abilities and Radiant abilities directly, we need to determine how their powers would work against each other straight up, or with the normal equipment they would employ. You mentioned why Radiants would use aluminum blades and why a Radiant would choose aluminum when shards exist. Outside of this exact matchup, why would MistBorn use aluminum blades instead of the glass ones that Vin used? With regard to shardbows, there's no way to tell what kind of arrowhead they use, but if MistBorn know enough to use aluminum daggers, then stone headed arrowheads are just as likely. Even without them, there's still an issue of physics. The Mistborn would weigh more than the spear-like arrow fired, but without duralumin, they're aren't going to stop something fired with that much force. And duralumin would use up all their currently burning metals, forcing them to consume more, creating an opening. They could probably divert the arrow with just steel, but that's still likely to require flaring the steel, which would use it up quickly. Electrum probably would be useful as a defense, but is likely difficult to use in a fight. Which raises another issue. One disadvantage that hasn't been discussed much is balancing all these different abilities. Radiant's powers can be versatile, but handling electrum, tin, pewter, iron/steel, and possibly zinc, brass, copper, and bronze all at the same time would take a lot more focus and would be more taxing mentally, and more likely to result in a mistake. Yes, so many different skills makes them extremely difficult to counter, which is why I think MistBorn would stand a fair chance against Radiants, but seriously, how many video game players make mistake because they press the wrong buttons? And everything so far is something that any Radiant of nine orders are capable of. Not touching BondSmiths, since they're in a league of their own. But gravitation can match or even surpass steel pushing and iron pulling. Abrasion would help avoid bullets or pushed coins. StoneWards could melt the ground under them and lock their feet in place, like Amaram did to Kaladin, neutralizing any evasion tactics, or forcing a MistBorn to stay in the air the entire time. Transformation can create pits underneath people or turn air to pitch, and then ignite it; useful against ground or air attacks. Illumination as a distraction probably wouldn't help, with bronze likely countering it, but that's another metal they'd have to juggle. And who knows how division could be applied. At close range it would melt any weapon other than aluminum, I assume. But I don't want to include the specific Radiant surges in the calculation, since there are different kinds of Radiants. So it's mostly about blades, plate, recovery, enhanced reflexes, and stamina.

I've thought about this a lot, and I think Moash had two shots at redemption and threw away them both. First, when he arrived in the city before marching to Kholinar, and second after he killed Teft. The first time, he chose to blame everyone and everything besides himself for what he did, saying it wasn't his fault. He chose to only see the bad around him, and to put the worst possible spin on it. He hoped the upheaval would cast the light eyes down, and was disgusted that it hadn't happened. The second time, after killing Teft and then temporarily being disconnected from Odium, he couldn't say he was sorry for killing Teft. Moash regretted the pain it caused him, no his friend's death itself. I'll never say that someone is completely beyond redemption, but in order for someone this far gone to be redeemed, something pretty dang miraculous would have to happen. And I really don't think that's going to happen. I have some ideas for how to appropriately punish Moash, but that's a different matter. Also, two Moash related plot twists that might happen in book five. First, his grandparents actually committed the crime Rashone accused them of. Or second, they died of natural causes, something completely unrelated to their imprisonment, and would have been dead the all the same. I know Dalinar called what happen to them a mistake, but still. He was trying to get Kaladin to kill himself to try and validate his own actions. He's seeking approval from someone he respects as a way to justify what he's doing. In his head, it's like he's saying, "If Kaladin chooses to give up too, it must be ok that I did". Taravangian does something similar with Dalinar in a later chapter. He didn't want justice. He wanted revenge. As Syl stated, that's what revenge does. It twists you until you're something else. If Moash had sided with Kaladin in that hallway with Graves and the unconcious Elhokar, Kaladin would probably have kept quiet about Moash's previous involvement with them. After all, Graves was still intending to kill Elhokar, and Moash would have been what was stopping him. The king would have thought Moash was a hero. Instead, Moash chose his own petty vengeance over the new family he'd gained in Bridge Four. I see it more as a comparison between Moash and Dalinar. Both did terrible things, both were influenced by Odium, but one owned up to his mistakes and accepted responsibility. The other did not. As for the comparison to Szeth, you've got a point, he does place blame mostly on the Shin who named him TruthLess, but I think he accepts at least some of the blame too. I think Moash is supposed to be an example of what happens when someone let's a desire for revenge consume them. Amamaram is more an example of what happens when someone deludes themselves that what they are doing is righteous; the ends justifying the means, and so on.

The problem is that if we start taking into account unusual weapons/equipment that one side doesn't usually have, there's no end to this. I don't remember any Mistborn using aluminum daggers, only glass ones. Yes, aluminum guns and bullets were used in Era 2, but it would be nearly impossible to use that against plate. Point blank shots through the eye slit, or super human accuracy are the only ways that's going to happen. And honestly, if the bullet passed through, I wonder whether or not that would be enough to put a radiant down. If it stayed in, that would do it, but its hard to say if that would happen. Radiants with shard bows could likely pick off Mistborn from much further than the reverse with aluminum guns. And if we assume the Mistborn are allowed to have aluminum blades, then we can't rule it out for Radiants either. Its why I focused on abilities.

Why do aluminum weapons matter? Stormlight probably wouldn't push the weapon out but would still keep the radiant alive and heal the wounds, wouldn't it?

For the most part, I'm excluding BondSmiths, since we don't really know the upper limits of their power. I am also acting under the assumption these are straight up fights, such as duels or on a battlefield, not assassination attempts or fighting under their own ideal circumstances. Plate will be discussed and since we're mostly comparing the various magic users of Scadrial against Radiants, I'm using the other nine orders in general, without going into any specific order. 1) Hard to say. A full MistBorn seems about on par with a Knight Radiant, without plate. Even emotional allomancy could be effective against them. But Radiants have the stronger recovery and stamina, so I'd lean toward Knight Radiant, but in a 65% Radiant 35% Mistborn way. With Steel and Duralumin they could probably crack plate enough to do damage, but that would be difficult, so it's more 85% to 15% with plate. 2) Knight radiant, hands down. Maybe Seer Mistings could compete, but they'd have a hard time dealing enough damage (if any) before their atium ran out. 3) This one is hard to say, since there's not really a limit to how much a feruchemist could store, except by how much metal they are wearing. A SteelRunner could theoretically stab a Radiant with their own sword while they're still holding it, but that would be tricky to pull off, even with increased strength stored with pewter. Or with enough strength they could break through plate. This all boils down to how much the FeruChemist has stored in their metalminds. I think they'd need a lot to beat a Radiant (obviously more if plate is involved), but with enough, they could. 4) Twinborns are tricky, but I think they could only beat a radiant is if they had a large amount of feruchemical charge in a pewter or steel metal mind or were using steal or pewter compounding for unlimited superspeed or strength. Gold compounding is the other valuable one, but doesn't offer any offensive options. Maybe an iron compounder could pull themselves into the air and increase their weight to crush the radiant, but that seems tricky to pull off. Steel or pewter compunders could probably beat radiants, but I doubt any others could. 5) Fullborn, unquestionably. Maybe, maybe a fully realized BondSmith could match up, but impossible to say. We don't know a BondSmith's full potential yet, but Rashek said he defeated entire armies before. Most Radiant's can't match that. 6) I think Brandon confirmed Kaladin would win on a battlefield, but Kelsier would win otherwise. But that was back before Kaladin earned his plate. So probably Kaladin now.

I hadn't considered it being both the vessel and shard separately. Feels kind of like Venom from Spiderman using "we", but it's a valid theory. I listen to the audio books, so I didn't know the text there matched the stormfather's speach, but I'd bet that actually does mean something. My only issue with this idea is that Tanavast has been confirmed and re-confirmed to be dead. Being triggered by Dalinar's refusal doesn't feel like a strong enough reason to need to reassure himself (or themselves) that Tanavast is dead. I suppose the perpendicularity could be granting Odium sight into the spiritual realm and seeing Tanavast in some way. I still like my Adonalsium is still alive theory, but this one makes sense too. It could be seen as a very subtle hint about the division between Rayse and the shard.

I posted a related theory a while back, except I think it speaks to Adonalsium being alive. Odium's exclamation at Dalinar was specifically, "We killed you, we killed you!" I think the "we" are the ones who shattered Adolnasium, and that Odium is seeing him somehow. According to Ishar, it's possible to see more clearly into the spiritual realm when an ideal is sworn, so it seems possible. At least, I think it does. The only other explanation of what would horrify Odium is if he saw one of the shards, based on the information we currently have. And the only shard Dalinar has a direct connection to is Honor. But as far as I know, Odium killed Tanavast by himself, without help from the other shards. I suppose he could be referring to his underlings in the "we", but that doesn't feel right. People in positions of power tend to speak of their accomplishments as their own; when people underneath them contribute, it's all a part of their own power. But when equals accomplish such a task, then people tend to think of it as "we"

Completely agree with all three points. It's very difficult to directly compare hard magic systems and soft ones because soft systems have far fewer rules. It's why I prefer medium and hard systems, since it's much harder to just have someone pull of a miracle for the story. The writer has to build toward it, like with the ideals. Doesn't surprise me that some Sith can do crazy stuff like that. Although, I did some research, and apparently it is possible to temporarily or permanently cut off a force users connection to the Force without direct physical contact, which I bet a fully realized BondSmith could do. I don't think there's any way to predict who'd win a fight like that, except that whoever struck first would probably win. And definitely, it's the self healing that tips the scales in the Radiants' favor. Without that, and/or Shardplate, an archer/ambusher could drop a Radiant with a well aimed shot to the head. Difficult, as Kaladin proved, but much easier than stopping someone who can recover from almost any conventional wound.

Exactly. Dalinar's fight with Ishar proved that a BondSmith is capable of truly incredible things. Even Odium (the old one) was worried about what might happen if Dalinar learned to use the full extent of his powers. Saying Luke/Vader/Yoda/Palpatine are unbeatable against most radiants is unreasonable. If surge binding is capable of nuclear power, as RoW hints at, then most likely BondSmiths are capable of it. I'm not as knowledgeable about Star Wars as some, but very few force users, if any, could be capable of stopping that level of power. As for who would win with BondSmiths against the most powerful forces users such as Luke/Vader/Yoda/Palpatine, that's harder to say. We don't know the upper limits of a BondSmith's power, but if Odium fears Dalinar's potential, that says a lot. On the other hand, being able to pull entire space ships with the force says a lot about the upper class level of force users, and supposedly some high end Jedi could do more. Who knows would would win that fight. My opinion earlier is more about the average force user against the average radiant, in which I lean toward the radiants.

I'm not sure about the first one, but if I recall, one of the coded messages they found in Uritheru suggested that the singers were still continuing to fight. It's possible that this was only in reference to the false desolation, but it could also mean the Singers were righting that entire time.

It's kind of hard to say for me. I don't think it would be as clear cut as some people think. Yes, shardplate would presumably block a lightsaber, and the radiant's healing would make them very difficult to stop. I think their automatic recovery is what makes the especially formidable, more than anything else. But on the other hand, what some force users like Yoda and Vader can move with the Force is ridiculous. I lean toward radiants being the winners, especially since BondSmiths could probably just steal their connection to the Force and instantly win. Other surge binding like soulcasting would be useful, but not a guaranteed victory. I think a force connection would count as being highly invested, resisting soul casting. And Jedi have their own abilities, are are warriors trained their whole lives, which not all radiants are. But the radiants' endurance seem like they'd be able to overcome Jedi, more times than not.

Honestly, I have too many to keep track of. But here are three of mine. Kaladin; "If I kill a man, I'm going to do it in the sunlight, and I'm going to do it only because there is no other way." Shallan; "I'm sure you were quite brave,"..."Though, probably not as brave as the poor men who have to clean your armor." Pattern; "No mating!"

I always assumed that, since it was a dead-eye blade, the effect just wasn’t as strong. After Kaladin speaks the third ideal, his eyes turn pale blue instantly after he summons Syl as a blade. The same way that dead blades and plate aren’t as powerful or versatile as living radiant blades and plate, the eye changing effect is lessened.

It’s not conclusive, but I think the blade is described as having vines on it. That sounds like a cultivation spren. I’d think that would mean green eyes.

A lot of people have had a similar theory; that humans being more expressive of their emotions makes them easier to feed off of. It was the theory I subscribed to, until I had this idea. Either one seems seems like a good explanation to me. But as far as I knew, I was the first one to come up with this idea about singer souls being stronger (say that three times fast) and so I wanted people’s thoughts on it.

That is a good point, but there are a couple of problems. For one thing, he says the spren wouldn't like it, so you wouldn't see it very often. Which means it's possible, but not common. Syl said that Parshendi can not become surgebinders, meaning that as far as she knew, it was impossible, not unlikely. Secondly, Brandon appears to be referring to higher spren, since the questioner asks about having two shardblades. Admittedly, Syl once seemed possessive of Kaladin when some glory spren appeared around his head in Oathbringer. But on the other hand, radiants form bonds with the shardplate spren, which are lesser spren, as part of the fourth ideal, so it doesn't seem out of the question. And the radiant spren don't always like the lesser spren of shardplate. Pattern even calls the creation spren that gather around Shallan useless things in WoR. Well, my point is to explain why the spren don't like bonding singers. And while radiants like Shallan might be the exception, it's still a possibility, so that alone shouldn't exclude Singer children.

Saying "Shall we?" does sounds very much like an invitation to begin the duel, after which Ruthar says "Fine.", a clear acceptance. I agree there is some nuance there since after that Wit said he wanted to use a champion, but still. Dalinar himself admits nothing illegal is going on during all of this. I think Elhokar mentions to Dalinar that if Adolin pulls out of that duel he forfeits all the Shards he wagered, so it does seem like the only options are to fight or forfeit. There's no official winner of that contest, but Dalinar does give a mark of respect indicating he considers Aratin the victor. Technically, you can. The duel with Adolin and Kaladin in the arena was inspired by a duel Sadeus had. In that duel, Sadeus paused the fighting several times to up the stakes in order to create a bigger spectacle to earn the right of challenge from Gavilar. Though to be fair, you have a point. Wit did say he accepted the trial by combat, then asked Ruthar, "Shall we?", and only after Ruthar accepted did he say he wanted to use a champion. That does seem like the sort of thing you'd need to say before inviting the start of the duel. He probably only said it to make sure the duel happened then and there, but without knowing Alethi laws regarding duels (which I'd bet aren't clear) there's no real way to say for sure. I don't think it provoked him further. Ruthar paused when Dalinar spoke. I think it's more that the conversation just gave him a chance to vent a lot of grievances he felt. He probably should have said that he wanted to call a champion before inviting Ruthar to begin, but I agree. I don't think that would be enough to invalidate the duel.

I suppose that's a possibility. We know that some types of spren were imagined by someone other than humans. Maybe even someone other than singers, now wouldn't that be a good twist. That seems unlikely. Pattern bonded Shallan, despite her already having bonded Design. Pattern even says in Oathbringer that if Shallan kills him, the Cryptics will send another to bond her. And if Design was willing to bond Shallan so young, they'd probably bond young singers too, who don't require taking a form to think. And Timber bonded both Eshonai and Venli, who were both Regals, and Rlain with Tumi.

That's another possibility. One of the Listener's songs touches on that, something about being too close to "their realm". I think they kind of tie together. Being too close to Shadesmar is probably also part of their connection to the spiritual realm, strengthening their souls. Or maybe their connection is what brings them too close to Shadesmar.

That's kind of what I'm talking about. Part of my point on this is to explain how and why humans are able to provide more benefits to the spren than singers. Perhaps the singers could have formed Nahael bonds, but that seems unlikely, if Syl is correct in telling Dalinar that a BondSmith discovered the Nahael bond.