Letryx13

It's an interesting idea, because it's not good to have either Shard independently. Ruin said that if Preservation had his way he'd just have everything frozen in place. For me, that isn't saying life wouldn't change for people; it means time would basically be stopped for everyone on Scadrial. How that would work, I have no idea, but it would be interesting. I think the Shards would have to be changed in order for Ruin to end up on the hero's side. Instead of Preservation and Ruin, they could be Order and Chaos, or something like that. Order is usually seen as the desirable side, but it could be interesting to see the benefits of Chaos being added to the balance.

Interesting question. I thought it had something to do with symbolism. In a lot of fiction with middle ages technology, people swear their allegiance by "swearing their sword" to someone. I happens in the Game of Thrones books several times. Then, in Oathbringer, the StormFather said the Honorblades were the mark of an oath, the Oathpact, which was related to radiant oaths but different. Perhaps Honor wanted the Heralds to have a physical symbol of their Oaths and the weight they carried? A reminder of what they had sworn to?

I'm not so sure, since NightBlood's intent is to destroy evil, that it would work all that well against the StormFather. Szeth said that NightBlood liked Lift when they first met, so the intent of the person holding the sword probably matters. And I doubt many consider the StormFather to be evil. Still, you have a point. NightBlood's power to destroy would probably work against the StormFather in his traditional state. I was thinking over the idea of the "Storm Blade" last night and it gave me a crazy theory. It relates to my earlier idea of Dalinar using the StormBlade to win the contest of champions, but what if someone needs to act as StormFather during the contest? What if someone had to cause the storms to blow while the contest occurred, which would prevent him from dying, since someone is doing the job? It's kind of like Hercules having to hold up the sky for Atlas in Greek mythology, which is where I got the idea. Maybe the NightWatcher could do it. Or Kaladin somehow does it, and this is his way to help contribute to the contest. A little out there maybe, but I think it's interesting.

In a way, it's what Harmony is going for. He's trying to get his people to advance. And Vin spoke of growth in a similar manner just before defeating Ruin, but I agree. Great name for a Shard.

I wonder how much stormlight Nightblood could take in during a high storm. He's not a gemstone or a radiant, and so far he has to be directly touching a source of investiture to feed off it's power. And I suspect Nightblood would have to strike the StormFather's "core" in order to damage him. Similar to I have to admit, that this is an interesting idea that I hadn't considered before. The StormFather warned of the damage Dalinar might do by pushing him to far. I always thought he might injure the spren so much that it could interfere with high storms, which would make life unsustainable for most of Roshar. I'd just assumed that BondSmiths couldn't have shardblades. But this is an intriguing idea. I've held onto the idea that Kaladin would still be Dalinar's champion, despite what their conversation at the end of RoW, but this is another possibility, and a very cool idea. Dalinar is at the third ideal, and will likely reach the fourth during the next book; my money is on that he has to swear to relinquish power when it's called for. If he could summon the StormFather as a blade too, after earning his plate, well that might be even better than Kaladin being the champion after all. This seems like exactly the sort of thing Sanderson would do. Subtly suggest that it's something that couldn't/shouldn't happen, and then making it work in the finale. Interesting.

I think there's a WoB saying that all the surges except for BondSmith powers have some kind ancient fabrial. Kind of like SoulCasting fabrials. But I agree, they'll probably emulate real world technology with fabrials, making it feel more techno-sorcery than true technology. Unless there's some way to mimic spiritual Adhesion (which seems unlikely), I feel like Adhesion is the only surge that wouldn't be useful. I have an image in my head of radio fabrials using Illumination and a link similar to span reeds to act as a way to transmit sound. Tension could be useful in engineering and construction. Abrasion could be useful in moving objects, similar to Gravitation, but making the object slide easily instead of float. Division would be great for demolition, trash removal, or mining. And Transportation could be useful for going in and out of Shadesmar more easily; good for keeping in touch with spren populations, maintaining relationships with the spren, and travel between worlds.

Soulcasting is crazy OP for sure. BondSmiths may be the strongest order, but Transformation is the most practical surge for sheer versatility, followed closely by Progression for healing and food, and then Gravitation for mobility/transportation of people and objects. I've always considered these three to be the most useful surges, in that order. After those three, Cohesion would be great for construction, shaping buildings out of stone far more easily than they can be built, or even steal if Cohesion works on metal. I'm not so sure Roshar would advance that quickly. Transportation would still be an issue, since high storms would make maintaining roads or railways difficult. And same with any kind of radio tower. They've got span reeds and will probably develop some kind of radio fabrial eventually so that's probably being nit picky. Air travel seems like the only transportation likely to advance very quickly.

I'm not convinced that Adolnalsium is dead, dead. I mean, they called shard blades spren corpes but they're probably going to be restored in the future. So dead can be interpreted different ways. That being said, I agree with you. I would be very surprised if Adolnalsium didn't allow the shattering to occur. I've commented on this before as well. The important part isn't "You" it's "We". Who is "We"? Odium killed Honor by himself (as far as we know), so it doesn't seem like he would be referring to Honor. I consider it far more likely that he is referring to Adolnalsium there. The only other idea that I've heard that could work is the "we" refers to the shard of Odium itself and Rayse separately. But that seems unlikely. I don't think he thought they were lost; he just didn't know where they were.

I agree, that's almost certainly what it meant; being able to accept death and be at peace with it. But there's also the fact that Vin was able to let go of Elend not once, but twice. At the well of ascension, and after Marsh/Ruin killed him. She wasn't willing to let the deaths of so many be for nothing, but she did seem to accept them. Kelsier was surprised when she didn't fly into a rage. She definitely saw Ruin as the enemy, but I doubt Sazed saw it much differently until he took up the power.

True, and I think there's something to that. But she always felt like a fighter, a warrior. And part of a warrior's journey is learning to accept what they've done. A few invested individuals on Roshar would agree with that, I think. And that feels like a good balance between Preservation and Ruin. Just my opinion. Ruin and Cultivation would be an interesting combination. I think that would be something like Rebirth. Eventually, everything dies, but that death can give live to new generations and so on.

I'm kind of ambivalent. I agree that Vin's struggle to accept the necessity of what she's done is an issue, but that's part of her growth. She even says during a conversation in HoA that if nothing changes, that's the same as being dead, which goes completely against the idea of Preservation. So she's not exactly perfect for either one, which actually makes me feel like she could have held both. I mean, Sanderson's word is gospel as far as the Cosmere is concerned, and I like that he says he can see a world in which Vin could hold Ruin. I just think it's already closer to that than he makes it seem. It always felt like Yin and Yang to me. The two were both opposites and complementary to each other. Each half of the whole, but also separate from one another, providing balance by pulling equally on each other. I'd be really surprised if that concept didn't play any kind of role when he was devising Scadrial's set up.

I agree. Life does seem to be a good balance between them as well. And one that would suit Vin. It seems a possibility. I get what you're saying, but it feels too close to Harmony to really be different. I don't know about that. It's true the two shards are polar opposites, but considering that it's possible for opposites to be used together, it seems like there should be more than two ways for them to be interpreted together. And it depends on how someone defines harmony. Sazed says states that his goal is harmony in Era 2. I don't know if I'd say that Harmony isn't Sazed's intent. He tells Waxillium that the point to the balance he represents as a deity is harmony. For as many people as possible to be able to make their own choices. Survival would be a good option for Vin, but I think it's more suited to the old Vin, not the one at the end of THoA. She seemed to care more about her friends and Elend than her own life toward the end.

Order and Balance feel too close to Harmony. I think you've got the right idea though. She was chosen to be someone who could both destroy and protect. And her last words to Ruin were about the purpose of life was to watch it grow, so Progress is possible. Loyalty might be a good fit. Hope would be a good name for a shard, but it doesn't quite fit Vin. Maybe something about how she's come to accept there are good people; something she didn't believe when Kelsier found her. Friendship maybe?

Ok, so I've been listening/reading the mist born books in preparation of the lost metal, and something occurred to me. According to TSH, the reason that Sazed was able to take up both Preservation and Ruin at the same time was because he was balanced between both. Tindwyl's death instilled a sense of acceptance of death within him, which allowed him to take up Ruin, while still wanting to maintain life, allowing him to take up Preservation. The balance he represents between both is what makes him Harmony. I remember reading a WoB that stated that if Kelsier had managed to take up both Preservation and Ruin, he wouldn't have been Harmony; he would have been Discord. Sazed represents the balance between the two Shards, while Kelsier would represent the conflict between them. Based on their respective personalities, I think this makes a great deal of sense. But what if Vin had somehow managed to take up both Shards? She was both a destroyer and a preserver, something THOA makes perfectly clear, which seems to me to be another type of balance that could allow someone to take up both shards. Does anyone know if there is a WoB on this? It seems like the kind of question someone would have come up with a while ago. I don't think Vin would have been Harmony or Discord, although Harmony seems much more likely than Discord. The way she talked about life and growth just before she killed Ruin makes me think Vin would have been something like that. Maybe Life. What do you guys think?

I agree, it's probably that moment that he realizes that she thought of him as just another member of the crew, not a kandra. She explains why she understand what he has gone through, that there are humans who understand what the kandra people had gone through. Which is what starts to win him over. I wasn't a huge fan of him at first, but I did grow to like TenSoon during HoA. His judgmental attitude is annoying, but he did start to get past that eventually.

My brother thinks this is what Navani's strange ship designs are about, fabrial submarines. When I started RoW, I thought they were about the fourth bridge, but since Syl turned herself into a copy of the image without understanding what it was, it must be something else.

I can see Adolin being tempted to join Odium, due to his anger at his father, but he seems to have too many ties to just abandon them. Shallan, Maya, Kaladin, Renarin, Navani and Jasnah. Moash was in bridge four, but he was never really close with any of them except Kaladin, so the situation is different. Severing one tie out of anger or revenge is one thing. Severing half a dozen or more is a different story. I think it's very likely that releasing Ba-Ado-Mishram will have some effect on restoring dead-eye spren. Dead eyes are very similar to how the singers were parshmen, and the ever storm restored them. If the ever storm is equal to the high storms, it stands to reason that it's equal to the storm father. And I believe it's confirmed that the unmade are in the same league as the storm father. Not as powerful, but not completely outclassed. So it seems reasonable to conclude that releasing her could restore the deadeye spren. I'm still not convinced that Kaladin will not be Dalinar's champion. The definitive statement by Dalinar at the end of RoW seems like a misdirect to me. Although I'd prefer it if the champion were neither of them. Adolin would a good champion for Honor, I think. Although it seems unlikely that they'd make it back to the tower in time. Dalinar's rivalry with Taravangian seems like something that should play out outside of the contest of champions, in my opinion. Unless there's some way for Dalinar to face Taravangian himself, which seems highly unlikely. So I don't think Dalinar should act as his own champion. I firmly believe that Adolin needs to be a main cast character. He's pretty much the only non radiant main character (aside from villains) which makes him an important representative. One of my few issues with the Harry Potter series is that there are hardly any muggle characters that play any kind of major role (aside from the Dursleys). The only reason good enough, in my opinion, for him to become a radiant is if it's the only way to heal Maya.

Agreed. My initial reaction to the Fuzed was that they were using the Singers and except for those like Leshwi, nothing has really changed that impression. I agree. If the Singers were to cooperate with the Radiants and Dalinar, they'd probably be better off than under Fuzed rule. Odium is the main driving force pushing the singers to attack humans. They'd probably have been able to negotiate peace long ago without his influence. Hard agree. Moash repeatedly threw people away to get what he wanted. He didn't value his friends, only what they could do for him. A certain crew leader valued his friends above all else. And their choices define them. I think you summed up comparing and contrasting the two pretty well. I think that's probably a necessary element to it as well. That separation helps maintain order. If you're doing something to deter others from committing the same act, then you're not enacting revenge. Revenge is just you hurting someone who hurt you. The person committing it is doing to it make themselves feel better. Deterring criminal acts is meant to protect people from others who might commit those same acts. This is actually part of why I think the SkyBreakers and WindRunners have more common ground than they think. While another of Sanderson's books calls into question how effective this deterrence actually is, there can be little doubt that some form of deterrence is essential to maintaining order.

That makes absolutely no sense. Justice is a subjective concept, to be sure, but it is essential to order. People who want revenge just want to hurt the person that hurt them. They often don't care what it costs or who else it hurts, as long as they get what they want. That is chaos. You can't base a civilization on chaos.

He doesn't have the authority to overrule that structure. And he also expresses the desire to "oust Alethkar's ruling class" but realizes they have bigger problems at the moment. No it isn't. Society needs to have some sort of structure or leadership. The people at the top need to recognize the responsibility that comes with that position. Otherwise you have people who want power for power's sake. Revenge is short sighted and selfish. It accomplishes nothing but making a victim feel better and furthering chaos. No, if Kaladin had gone through with Killing Elhokar, he would have been the same as Moash. Something Kaladin himself admits, when he says he's no different from Moash, just before he swears the third ideal. And again, revenge is stupid. Particularly in this case, where we have no evidence that being in the dungeons is what actually killed Moash's grandparents.

Surgebinding is crazy powerful, Odium even mentions to Dalinar how powerful he knows it is. Although I think that's more support about the nuclear capabilities of surgebinding. BondSmiths seem like the exception. Since they are bonded to much greater spren, it makes sense that they'd have much greater powers, so I think that might work differently. And Division ties to the nuclear power idea too, I think. But it feels like they'd need a BondSmith's help to decimate entire armies. Soulcasting just seems so over powered because it can be used to meet most basic needs; food, shelter, waste removal, etc. And also because while there are ways to resist it, there's not much of a way to stop it. That we know of, anyway.

I could see it either way, with Cultivation's end goal to defeat to Rayse or for something beyond that with Taravangian. Personally, I think it's most likely that she considered the possibility of Taravangian still being a big problem, believes herself capable of handling him, but that Lift is her backup plan. Most agree that Cultivation has set up Lift as a possible successor, which strikes me as the sort of failsafe Sanderson would go for. He basically did that with Kelsier and Vin already. As for splintering the shard, we don't know exactly how that process goes about, or if Cultivation is even aware of how to do it. Even if she did, given what happened on Threnody, we know that splintering a shard can result in some nasty consequences. Perhaps Cultivation didn't want to risk that sort of thing. I doubt it. Preservation wanted to merge his shard with Ruin's, but I doubt any of the other shards want to change who they are. Those two shards are kind of an exception, since they always had kind of a complementary nature. More importantly, Preservation probably knew it was the only hope of stopping Ruin permanently.

Feruchemical Copper. Sazed proved how useful that much knowledge is. Imagine knowing enough to be a surgeon, lawyer, engineer, programmer, general, and political leader all at the same time. A photographic memory would be useful under almost any circumstances. Plus the metal is common.

Elhokar was not a good king, but he was not a tyrant on the level of Rashek. Elhokar recognized his failings later on and both tried to step down as king and almost became a radiant. As Dalinar himself discovers, there's a big difference between a man who recognizes his mistakes and owns up to them and someone who refuses to admit he made any and take responsibility. In that regard, Moash is actually similar to Rashek (and Tarravangian). I consider that to be a fatal flaw. And, based on how good Brandon is about throwing curveballs at us about expectations, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Moash's grandparents died of natural causes. While they died in prison, which was a mistake as Dalinar admitted, we have no proof that they would have lived even if left alone. They were 75 years old. Not an unheard of time to die of old age. I agree. Moash wouldn't spare somebody for someone else's sake, a major difference between him and Kelsier. Moash has proven time and time again he only looks at the negative aspect of situations. I think the differences between them are how they channeled their anger and how they treated people close to them. One of them launched himself into a crowd, toward almost certain death, all to rescue a young boy whom he called a friend. His last words (while alive) to his apprentice were a lecture about friendship. The other may have been willing to charge an army to rescue a high prince with his fellows, but he later was willing to kill a man who had helped free him and given him a vast treasure all to get his revenge. Both had friends who tried to help them, but only one of them genuinely cared. The single biggest difference between them is the choices they made, not their circumstances. Kaladin explicitly states that he doesn't want the "burden" of land ownership or rule. He recognizes the responsibility. And Moash didn't seem to want to help the humans that didn't have food against the humans that were hoarding food when he first got dropped off in that slave area in Alethkar. Being beaten is one thing, but giving up is another. He had the chance to own up to his mistakes, like attempting to kill Elhokar and nearly killing Kaladin, but he took the easier way out by blaming everyone else, and acting like he was forced into it. That is weakness, not strength.

Probably, but it's still the only real weak spot. It's how Kaladin beat Helaran. Living plate is obviously better, but didn't Jasnah get attacked the same way in that battle she fought in RoW? With stormlight enhanced reflexs, Radiants are likely to be able to dodge coins shot at them. Meaning they could dodge just as easily, if they even needed to. And if the MistBorn is taking the time to actually aim at their opponent (something a lot of people using guns don't do) they open themselves to counter fire. Guns are likely better, but shardbows would be effective as well. Especially if the spren could form into the spear-like arrow. Then the MistBorn couldn't push against it at all. We've only really seen two MistBorn using Duralumin, one of whom was probably the most skilled MistBorn to ever live. And even if they don't make a mistake with Duralumin itself, juggling them all is more mentally taxing, making it more likely for other mistakes to occur. A MistBorn might be maneuverable, but they're still only going to be able to fire from one direction at a time. Besides, Kaladin was dodging hundreds of arrows at a time. No MistBorn is going to be able to do that without atium. And if the Radiant is following them with their eyes, they aren't going to be surprised. I don't want to get more into the specific surges, since it might not matter, but if the MistBorn is just going to wait out the Radiant, then the Radiant can do the same thing to the Mistborn. If stormlight is limited, then so are their metals. Pewter and Atium burns pretty quickly, and those are the metal that's going to enable them to keep up with Radiants' reflexes and speed, and since one is an alloy, then they aren't likely to be able to scrounge either one up randomly like they could with iron or tin. Pewter also takes a significantly larger toll when it runs out, which it does even more quickly than stormlight, especially when flared. I've yet to see anyone have to sleep for two weeks after using a lot of stormlight. I'm not so sure about Abrasion, maybe they'd start to suck the stormlight out when they touch, but they'd have to pull it all out instantly to really stop it from protecting the Radiant. And if it were that easy, I don't think the leecher would ever need to grab hold of their target. But I admit, that one's kind of iffy. Stonewards could just surround themselves with stone for a defense, forcing a MistBorn to come to them on the Radiant's terms. As for the spren as a weapon, unless the Radiant is using them as a spear and throwing them, or as a shard arrow and firing them (something I'm still waiting to see) they they're not much use against opponents that are just waiting and stalling until their opponent is powerless. If the MistBorn decides to get in close, then the spren is better as a weapon. But at a distance, they could shout in their ear, which is probably as effective against someone burning tin as a flashbang against a normal person, incapacitating them. The only way they could balance that would be to use pewter, which again, would be used up extremely quickly. After that, a shardbow could finish the job. Syl was useful in finding knob weeds in TWoK, although that was partly just because she's so fast. And if the spren did manage to find the radiant, they could just keep talking to let the Radiant know where the MistBorn was. Although I wonder how fast Abrasion could be, Gravitation is probably the only surge to out speed steel pushing. One thing I haven't brought up, but should be mentioned is fabrials that imitate or activate the surges. If we're accepting guns are ok for MistBorn to use, and aluminum daggers as well, then fabrials such as soulcasters, healing fabrials, and the lift fabrial that Navani's scholar's developed used by Kaladin in RoW should be on the table. Even if a MistBorn gets close enough to leech the radiant, it wouldn't affect the fabrials they hold, since those have their own gemstones to hold stormlight. It's why emeralds are so valuable on Roshar. The ancient fabrials are made of the same metal as shardblades, so they couldn't be pushed or pulled. And they would enable the radiant to soulcast the MistBorn if and when they got close, and even to heal from injuring inflicted by the MistBorn at close range. Even if you don't want to accept that the Radiant could still use the ancient fabrials while leeched, according to a WoB, the ancient radiants had figured out fabrials to imitate most of the surges, (BondSmith powers were too complicated) so it's not unreasonable that they could have access to those fabrials as weapons to use Gravitation, Transformation, and the others. They obviously wouldn't be as good as the powers the Radiants get themselves, but they'd still be effective.