Letryx13

Agreed. This kind of pride is exactly Taravangian's problem too. Dalinar makes this exact point Adolin in RoW. People can rationalize almost anything, and if they use that alone to justify their actions, then there's no real restraint on them.

I think that's a pretty succinct way to put it.

I agree. It probably is possible for there to be a natural Fullborn, just really really unlikely. But over a thousand years of descendants, it's likely one could crop up eventually. Otherwise, Rashek's action to separate the bloodlines doesn't make much sense.

I didn't know other Fullborn candidates existed. Who are they?

I get what you mean. You can't say everybody makes mistakes, when there actually is someone who never does make a mistake.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to invalidate your point. In fact you make several valid ones. I think a big part of the stormlight archives overall theme is that people don't have to be perfect to be amazing. I just think having a tangible example as an ideal can also be a good thing.

No one is saying that what the street thugs did was right or justified. I don't think what Jasnah did was entrapment either, but she deliberately set out to sprung a trap with the specific intention of killing whoever set it. If intentions mean nothing, then there's no reason to distinguish between murder and manslaughter. It's not lethal force if it isn't capable of killing you. Those four thugs might as well have been swinging bags of yarn for all the threat they were to her. As I mentioned previously, she used herself as bait with the intention of drawing them out. That's hunting, or maybe fishing. Either way, her goal was clear. The only times I know of her mentioning soulcasting stone are during the battle of Thaylena, where she specifically mentions soulcasting a pit underneath enemies, and when she is fighting in Emul. She mentions in Emul that the stone would resist her, but doesn't say how much, also she seems to be speaking specifically of the stone on the plains. If that is the case, stone might be difficult, but souls are likely much more so. Unless there is some other reference that I'm unaware of. And even if you're correct, then she had two options, one lethal, one non lethal. And she chose the lethal one when she didn't need to. Dropping them in a pit would have stopped them.

If you're in a position where you can torture someone, or kill them slowly, then you can't claim self-defense. If they're incapacitated or restrained, then they aren't a threat to you. How exactly was Jasnah in danger? At what point was she afraid for her life? 1. If I sat still and did nothing while a toddler that had a knife threw a tantrum, they could kill me. That doesn't mean killing a toddler with a knife reasonable. 2. It's not about whether or not they deserved to be punished. It's about whether or not Jasnah has the right to hunt them down and kill them. 3. She was trying to kill too. And she could still have stopped them without killing them. If anything, she chose the more difficult route. She says in Oathbringer that a person's soul resits "mightily" when soul cast. Stone seems much easier. Soulcasting the stone out from under them would likely have been the easier option.

I like the fact that there was one person who wouldn't yield. He destroyed himself in the process to do so, and it appears the supernatural element to his madness played a role in his ability to do so, but I don't think it's a bad thing. To suggest that there really was a person, not a human but a person, that was strong enough to do what he did seems amazing to me. It's somewhat reflected in Adolin's internal monologue when he's fighting the mob in Shadesmar outside Lasting Integrity. Demonstrating the incomparable power of someone who won't ever give up. He's been destroyed more thoroughly than anyone in the series, except for maybe the deadeye spren, but in a way, that makes him all the more admirable. Humans aren't perfect, but the heralds are meant to represent ideas/ideals as much as anything.

False analogy. A person with a knife is still a threat to someone with a gun. Again, from EdgeDancer, the words of Arclo the sleepless, ""In defense of myself," he chuckled, "I suppose that is a lie. They were not capable of killing me, so I can't plead self-defense, any more than a soldier could plead it in murdering a child."" Tiqqa couldn't possibly have harmed Nale.

Not if the "victim" was specifically trying to draw someone into attacking her. Jasnah did what she did to provoke them into attacking her, not because she wanted to walk in that part of Karbranth, or was on her way to a party. For all she said to Dalinar about wanting ruling councils governing nations, she doesn't seem to mind taking it upon herself to decide people shouldn't continue living. I'm going to have to side with Kaladin in WoR on this one. "...telling ourselves it's for the good of the kingdom. If if kill a man, I'm going to do it in the sunlight. And I'm going to do it only because there is no other way." I think killing should only ever be used if there are no other options. I don't think it can be considered self defense if the other person is incapable of killing you. But let's compare this situation to something similar. In the novella Edgedancer, when Nale executes the street urchin, Tiqqa, he has the legal authority to do so, since since she pulls a knife on him, an officer of the law. Legally, he has the right to do this, because she assaulted him with a bladed weapon. However, later, when Lift summons Wyndle as a shardrod, he mocks her, clearly not feeling threatened or intimidated. If that's the case, ignoring all issues regarding Nale's sanity, was he justified in executing Tiqqa for breaking the law, despite the fact that she clearly posed no threat to him?

My brother thinks the fifth Ideal lets them hold stormlight indefinitely, but after RoW, I don't think that's it. It would likely be something that doesn't create a physical object, and it's likely the same for every order. I think the only radiant if the fifth ideal currently is Nale, at least as far as we know. We also know that it's possible to break a Nahael bond without killing the knight up until the fifth ideal, according to Notum. This is just a guess, but since all the other radiant ideals create something external, maybe the fifth is some kind of self-actualization and helps heal their souls, the trauma they've gone through. I know Kaladin says at the end of RoW that the oaths don't fix them, but twice now it's been mentioned that radiant's fill the cracks with something stronger (a line I love, by the way).

My point is that baiting someone into attacking is the action of a hunter.

Agreed. If someone wore strips of meat around their neck in an area where wild animals are known to prowl, then shoots one when it attacks them, that person is hunting.

This is the scene that made me worry about the kind of person Jasnah would ultimately end up being. My biggest issue is that I suspect Jasnah was capable of stopping them without killing them. She could have soulcast the stone out from underneath them and made a pit, dropping them enough to break their legs or something. If you can stop a criminal like that without killing them, I can’t think that it’s right to kill them.

I agree, it would be a good twist, especially since we haven't had much interaction with her directly. Although, in a way, that makes her a good candidate for a spren to be killed. She'd be a huge loss, without it being a major emotional investment. Although, I'm not sure how much the anti-light is going to impact the next book. So far, it seems like some of the biggest conflicts in each book are less important in the subsequent book.

So far, his second through fourth ideals can be connected to his father. With the second ideal, he heard his father's voice in his head just before, reminding him someone had choose to do the right thing. The third ideal is less in sync, but Lirin always chose to help everyone, even Roshone. But with how Kaladin reached this ideal, it seems to be more about Tien. And the fourth ideal matches, because another quote Kaladin heard in his head a few times was about learning when to care and when to let go.

I think it's supposed to suggest Adolnasium is somehow still alive in some capacity. The heralds are able to see more clearly when a radiant swears an ideal, so it makes sense that a shard could too. The only way I can see Honor making sense is if Odium had help in killing Tanavast or splintering his power. But I agree, these are the only two options that seem likely.

I realize this theory is going out on a limb, and makes a couple of very big assumptions. But I really think this could be a possible route to how the things go in StormLight book 5. Ever since I finished Oathbringer, I've come to the conclusion that since Honor and Cultivation restrained Odium in some way, Odium himself is only a real threat while he has the fuzed and singers obeying him. Obviously, there are humans following Him, along with the Unmade and Thunderclasts, but the vast majority of his forces come from the singers. The Fuzed are basically helpless without willing singers to sacrifice their bodies for them. When I realized this, it also occurred to me that the way to defeat Odium is to find a way to separate him from the singers. My first, relatively stupid, idea was to simply find a way to have the humans and singers on different worlds. Obviously this is never going to happen, since the humans have lived on Roshar for so long, and since the singers were the original inhabitant species, both feel as if it rightfully belongs to them. So I started trying to figure out what might get the singers to turn on or reject Odium. I've posted a theory already about how I think it was the singers that started the wars in the first place. But that alone wouldn't be enough to change their minds. They might not be happy that it was the Fuzed and their like that started the fighting, but that doesn't seem like it could overshadow their anger at humankind. The years they spent as slaves to humans is what is truly fueling their rage. That's when it hit me. What if the humans weren't the only ones to blame for the singer's enslavement? Stick with me on this. During Dalinar's last vision in WoK, Honor tells Dalinar various pieces of puzzle in the conflict between Him and Odium. One line that specifically stood out to me was when he mentions that Odium has realized that the people of Roshar will fight amongst themselves if left alone. This is a fairly simple concept. Getting multiple enemies to turn on each other is one of the easiest ways to defeat opponents. He also claims He will be dead by the anyone ever receives the message, if anyone even does. So it's safe to say that Honor died shortly after he created that message. This line in Honor's message is the first of two pieces of information supporting this theory. Honor's death would have happened after the Herald's decided to abandon the Oathpact (since the visions not only showed their abandoned swords, but at least one vision afterward at FeverStone Keep), which means that two of the four largest unifying forces for humankind, their god and his heralds, would be gone. The main unifying forces left would be the Knights Radiant and the singers, humankind's enemy. You might be able to see where I'm going with this. If Odium could figure out a way to remove both of those, humans wouldn't be as strongly united anymore, and would likely turn on each other. This brings me to my main point. I think that Odium intentionally setup Ba-Ado-Mishram's imprisonment, knowing what would come of it. I believe that Odium realized what would happen if the singers were removed from the equation; that the Radiants and their spren would choose to end the orders if they no longer had an enemy to fight. Honor encouraged the radiants not to give up even after they found out that Roshar originally belonged to the singers, and he also acted as a check against their powers. With Him gone, they lost both of these things, and Odium was likely crafty enough to deduce that if he could remove the singers somehow, the knights would be gone, and humans would eventually start fighting amongst themselves. But what's the evidence that Odium did anything like this? It takes a some amount of reasoning, but there is another piece of information that supports it. The fact that the entire population of singers were bonded to BAM at the time of her imprisonment. Not counting the Listeners, since they were separated at the time. Previously, the Fuzed had taken over willing singers, and some voidspren had granted some singers forms of power. But, if it's possible for one of the Unmade to grant every existing singer a Regal status, then why didn't Odium himself do this? Why hasn't he done this during the current desolation? A larger quantity of powerful soldiers would be better for his army. It doesn't fit. With the way Regals act so aggressively, it's likely they've be even more willing to give themselves up to the Fuzed. Yes, it's possible that there just weren't as many singers at the time of BAM's imprisonment, and this evens things out, but that answer doesn't sit right with me. If their numbers were proportionally smaller, then the Radiants shouldn't have needed to imprison BAM to end the war. During one of Venli's flashback chapters, the voidspren Ulim talks to her about how BAM was imprisoned and what that did to the singers. The fact that he never mentions anything about Odium being responsible makes sense however, since he wouldn't want to reveal anything that might turn singers against Odium, assuming Ulim even knew about it. We don't know when exactly human's learned to imprison spren, but judging from the way the Fuzed were surprised by it, it was probably after Aharietiam. We also don't know where humans learned to imprison spren in the first place. It's entirely possible that Odium himself leaked that knowledge to humans, but i admit that's pure speculation. It's more likely he took advantage of humankind's ability to imprison spread in gemstones. And let's not forget that Odium would need to eventually bring the singers back. Obviously, this is done with the Everstorm. While the Stormfather said that the Everstorm is new, it is old of design, which means that the idea for it probably existed before the recreance, during the time of the desolations. So it could easily have been a part of Odium's plans. It is also possible that he just never thought that Taln would be able to resist for for over four thousand years, and figured by the time Taln broke (which never happened) the humans would be sufficiently divided. If the information that Odium was responsible for the singer's enslavement were somehow distributed to the singer population, I imagine that would turn the entire situation on its head. They might not be any less angry at humans, but if they found out the very god they were following, the one their ancestors had followed, had betrayed them and gotten them enslaved, they would probably abandon Him pretty quickly. It's the sort of thing that could end the war in a chaotic enough way to upend the new Odium's plans and bring a semi-conclusion good enough for the first half of the ten book installment. Of course, the contest of champions would still happen, but this would be a dramatic enough event to impact even that.

I’m a TruthWatcher as well. One of the more practical orders, I think.

Not that I know of. It doesn’t even seem like the Everstorm was even that much of a deal in RoW. I think it’ll happen again in book 5.

I'd like to share my favorite theory that no longer seems possible. So, when I started reading stormlight archives, my brother shared several ideas he had about the series. He avoided spoilers, since he hates them, but since he was three books ahead of me at the start, he had a few ideas about the future of the series. My favorite one that he came up with involved Taravangian's diagram. Since Taravangian isn't able to remember what his super brilliant self (brilliant T) was thinking the day he wrote the diagram, there's always been a lot of speculation about what exactly he was planning on that day. Based on the translations a certain king of Karbranth and his people were able to make, it seemed to be pushing him to try and assume control of Roshar to put himself into the best position to negotiate with Odium. Now, like Dalinar, I think Taravangian's pride and desire to prove himself the best and smartest ruler influenced the not-so-brilliant Tarangian's actions, but this isn't about that. What interests me is what was his brilliant self really planning. This theory is probably not relevant any longer, since Taravangian is now Odium, but what if brilliant T was trying to maneuver his future self in a way that created an opening to defeat Odium? Not put him in a position to negotiate with him, but actually defeat him? However, there's not much to support this idea, other than the fact that it would be a truly spectacular plot twist. It seems similar to a detective style story where the protagonist was the killer the entire time, which is part of why I like it. Only in this case, it's the past self tricking the future self, knowing that the future self can't be trusted. It would have made for a great reveal, if present Taravangian realized he'd been tricked the entire time by his past self, and deciding what he'd do going forward. And again, I realize the theory is almost certainly debunked, now that Taravangian is Odium and no longer following the diagram. Unless he thinks on what his past brilliant self wrote him at some point in the next book and makes a decision based on that, it seems impossible. So, what are some of your favorite theories/ideas that didn't end up happening?

Not necessarily. He wants the people of Scadrial to be strong enough to handle what comes in the future, and part of that is struggling to achieve advancement. It could be argued Harmony wants His people to handle the Set, and grow because of it. He might even do the same if a new Lord Ruler emerged. I mean, one was already toppled, admittedly with a small bit of help from Preservation, but still.

The Thrill seemed like a throwaway description of adrenaline until Oathbringer. Never underestimate the subtlety of a write of Sanderson's caliber.