Letryx13

Weren't Honor and Cultivation romantically involved before they ascended?

I'm sorry, that was unclear. I meant there wasn't anything supporting the singers having the level of power to create the unmade. I suppose it's possible Odium influenced the singers into it, but they would still have needed His power to pull it off. I meant the singers didn't have the power to make the unmade, sorry, I wasn't clear. But I always kind of figured the unmade were on par with BondSmith spren. Imagine if one of them bonded someone to make a "radiant".

Well, I agree Lirin isn't suited to be a WindRunner, but I maintain he's more an EdgeDancer than anything else. Also, I like that you used The Lopen's proper title.

I suppose it's possible. But I don't think there's any evidence to support them having that level of power. Or am I forgetting something?

I suspected before RoW that the Listeners that fled into the chasms survived. And I kept picturing that the way they were going to start things off with the humans this time would be Rlain introducing Bridge Four to them, and a friendly cooking competition between Rock and a Listener chef.

I’m so frustrated by this, for the record, I really wanted him as a BondSmith. Having said that, I think a singer would make a good BondSmith, someone who swears to bring humans and singers together. But I don’t have a specific one in mind.

I figured there was a spren watching Tien. I think Mraize mentioned another surge binder in Ameram's army, and I thought that it was referring to him. I didn't think it was a cryptic. I completely forgot that Kaladin mentioned his father helping people, even those who hated him. Good support for Lirin being a WindRunner, but on the other hand, the townspeople acted like they hated Lirin, I don't think Lirin ever actually hated any of them.

Uh, I hate to break it to you, but the next sentence after the one you boldened in that quote supports Lirin being a WindRunner.

I'm with Sazed on Hemalurgy. I don't think ripping apart people's souls, even with good intentions, is a good idea. I know the Kandra wouldn't exist without it, but even they aren't comfortable knowing two people died to make each of them. Yes, granting power that way could do good, but it's just as easy to go the other way. The only thing stopping someone from using it to become another Lord Ruler is Sazed, and he might not choose to act if the person hasn't formed some kind of contract with him. He mentioned that when discussing Bleeder with Waxillium. I agree with the people who compare this to organ transplants. And it's also worrying to think what would happen if knowledge of Hemalurgy became common knowledge. Not just the Set and Vanishers kidnapping people, but common criminals doing so for power and rich people trying to buy people's lives or powers. Hopefully @Ralphaborn is right, and the medallion technology makes it unnecessary.

I get why some people would think the Singers created the unmade, but I just don't think they'd have the power before siding with Odium. Plus, changing only nine spren doesn't seem like it would provoke such a reaction. Although I admit, Blended says the Singer betrayal wasn't on such a large scale as the Recreance. The only evidence against the theory is that Sja-Anat says that she was unmade by Odium's hand. Unless she means that indirectly, then he's the one who created the unmade.

What law exactly did Sadeus break? Character is part of honor. Doing the right thing because you're obligated to is different from doing the right thing because you choose to. It's actually why I have issues with spren's judgement of humans based on oaths. They can not break them, while complaining that humans do. I wonder if they would, if they had the ability. Thus proving other people wrong to satisfy his pride. Why do you think he asked to be reminded of what the surgeon said when he was born? No, Dailinar went to the Nightwatcher to change. Taravangian went to ask to be given the capacity to stop what was coming. He went for the power to be the hero that saved everyone. And yet despite being presented with irrefutable evidence that he was wrong, he refused to admit it. Refusing to admit to your own mistakes is both petty and foolish. I agree. Plus, there were EdgeDancers that ran the clinic in Uritheru. And Syl said her old knight spent most of his time traveling, using her to cut aqueducts and storm cisterns. Clearly not all radiants are used for fighting. Lirin would probably take the place of someone more suited to combat.

I don't know if I have any good ideas on how to answer this question, but I absolutely love how you titled and phrased it.

I don't know if I would call him humble. He's seems pretty judgmental and it takes a lot to get him to even begin to change his mind. He's very stubborn, at the very least.

I think a lot of people have had a similar idea, but I agree, it seems a little too close to Adhesion/Connection. But I do like the idea of Lirin as an Edgedancer. I spent most of the book waiting to hear Lirin complain about why Kaladin couldn't have been one of the orders that can heal. That would have been funny, and somewhat stereotypical of a disappointed father. I just realized how much sense the enlightening/corrupting (I like the term blending, myself) of a spren creates a radiant with internalized abilities. Raboniel's conversation with Venli on the way to Uritheru even supports it, with how she describes radiants are outwardly focused as opposed to Fuzed being inwardly focused. A skybreaker wouldn't have tried to free slaves in the first place, as long as slavery was legal. He still sold out the rest of his entire home world to save his city, despite evidence that his Diagram was flawed. And he did that more out of pride than anything else. I admit there's some grey area about whether it was a deception or a betrayal, but I maintain that he acted mostly out of pride. Taravangian claimed he did everything to be in a better position to negotiate with Odium, but as Dalinar accused, he probably also did it to become his definition of the greatest king ever, not just to protect people. I think he wanted to prove the people who accused him of being of diminished capacity wrong. Change is a necessary part of honor when you're in the wrong, look at Dalinar. Being the most intelligent doesn't mean he was always right, and it definitely doesn't mean he should decide everything on his own. And the fact that he believed he was the only one capable of that is pure pride and arrogance. Acting out of pride is not of honor. Lirin is the better man, and I think one worthy of a spren bond. At least, potentially. Agreed.

Ruin is basically entropy, destruction, and intelligent decay. I have a hard time accepting Odium wouldn't consider him a top level threat or obstacle. I think you might be on to something about the state of Preservation and Ruin's conflict, however. I might be wrong, but it was only about 2000 year before the events of the original trilogy that Preservation and Ruin made their deal. Supposedly, no one ever took up the power at the well of ascension before Rashek, so Ruin was only imprisoned for 2000 years. Depending on how the timelines between Roshar and Scadrial match up, Preservation and Ruin were probably in some sort of stalemate when Odium starting attacking other worlds. The status of that stalemate might have influenced his decision, if he could move freely from world to world.

Kaladin's men were expressing a desire to help before he said anything. Kaladin himself was the resistance at first. So far, all Taravangian managed to save was Karbranth, while betraying the rest of Roshar and possibly the Cosmere, while making himself into an emperor/martyr in the process. I'm not a fan of Lirin, but at least he's starting to change. And while he thinks his way is best, at least he doesn't act like he's the only capable surgeon on Roshar.

I think the purpose of that revelation was to show what caused the Recreance, or at least what contributed to it. And I think the point is to show that in most wars, there's not really an innocent side. The main reason the singers are fighting now is because of the years their people were enslaved as Parshmen. That's the terrible act humans committed that created the situation they're in. But if it was the singers that started the conflict, and I'm confident it was, then it helps to show how much a tangled up mess a war can become. Which is also kind of the message Dalinar's memoir/biography conveyed. That's definitely worth considering, and they're probably discussing the oath pact, but we also don't know who was on which side, or what specific conflict they're talking about. I'm not sure how to weigh it in regards to this theory.

The storm father said that Ishar experimented with the surges, but I don't think he was really a BondSmith until he got his honor blade. I'm kind of with you on this one. That seems like it should have been the first pair to target, if he had the freedom to choose where to go where he wanted. Unless he thought there was something different about Preservation and Ruin's conflict, something he couldn't exploit. In which case, he'd want to prepare, maybe raise an army before going after them.

Hard to understand that one. Endowment said they all agreed no good could come from multiple shards settling in one place. That makes a little more sense, but Endowment implied there was one. It kind of feels like a lawyer style loophole, where they agreed it would be better if they stayed separate, but never officially agreed to do so. Don't forget, BondSmiths didn't exist yet when Odium first moved to Roshar. But I agree an unrestrained BondSmith could probably pose a threat to a shard, thought likely for a very high price. Ruin is probably the most dangerous Shard after Odium. If I were him, I'd want to take my time and build up an army before going after the divine force of entropy. And something I just thought of, but it's possible that Odium didn't actually choose Roshar, but just followed the humans that Honor allowed in.

Which pair? That description sounds more like Preservation and Ruin.

It's possible they lost some form of connection to Roshar when the spren started favoring humans, but I doubt they had anything as significant as a Radiant bond. Sylphrena and Venli both stated that wasn't possible. The truth is we only really have three confirmed instances of singers actually bonding a radiant spren; Eshonai, Venli, and Rlain. And all three of those involved Odium's power in some form or another. Two of them had Void spren inside them, and the third bonded a radiant spren touched by Sja-Anat. Yes, Venli's mother started to recover at the end, but that could just be her becoming a squire. I think jealousy makes more sense because it's emotional, and that's the sort of thing Odium strikes at to manipulate people. Like Amaram's disappointment over the heralds or Dalinar's guilt over his past. There's a good chance the loss of such connections played a part, but I don't think it was the core problem. I like your point about the spren not being able to fully control the reaction. I see it more as just instinctively moving to a better source of food, but that also seems possible. But I doubt the singers could do anything to make the unmade without Odium being directly involved. They would have needed his power to do something like that.

I read it somewhere. I can't remember where, probably some wiki, but it mentioned that Devotion and Dominion opposed each other, but not on the level of Preservation and Ruin. I think there is very little chance that Change being there is a coincidence, from a plot perspective at the very least. But Honor tells Dalinar that it would be difficult to stop Odium without the DawnShards (or at least laments that they don't have them) so he probably didn't know Change was there. And if Odium was being sincere about how badly he wanted away form Roshar, and I think he was, then he probably didn't know it was there either. So I doubt Odium was there hunting for it.

And unfortunately, if he ever manages to escape Roshar, Preservation and Ruin would also qualify. Their situation might have been different, since those specific shards seem like they're supposed to be used together, but you can bet Odium won't accept that. Which means Sazed is in trouble. But when did Odium say that was his justification? I thought that was just endowment expressing disappointment that most of the Shards didn't keep to that agreement. In fairness, Devotion and Dominion were something along the lines of rivals or competitors. There were probably cracks between them he could exploit, especially since he hadn't really divested any of his power yet. Honor and Cultivation seem to have worked together harmoniously even before Odium's Arrival

I can see Lirin becoming a radiant, but probably not a WindRunner. He’s too convinced his method of non-confrontation is correct to try anything else. I’m not a big fan of Lirin, in a way he was like Taravangian, too proud to admit he was wrong. Seeing that Kaladin inspired hope in people, he called them fools that would be crushed. But he’s starting to change a little, accepting Kaladin at the end of RoW.

So, I've had a couple of theories for a while now that I've wanted to put out there. I don't know if a WoB contradicts them, but I figured I should post this first one. The storm father's explanation in Oathbringer of how the desolations started began with the fuzed and singers attacking humans and the heralds creating the oathpact to stop them. But why exactly did the ancient singers attack in the first place? The way the books are set up, it appears as though after humans arrived on Roshar, they attacked the singers, and the singers retaliated, turning to Odium for power. But this never made much sense to me. First of all, it's never explicitly stated what the humans did to the ancient singers, and second, why would Honor choose to side with human invaders over the people of the world he'd made his home? The first point is actually very important. Sanderson has managed to use character's assumptions to set the tone of the series to great effect so far. Describing the thrill in such a way that readers naturally assumed it to be adrenaline is one of the best examples. The Ella Stele, the ancient document showing that humans were the original VoidBringers, only states that the humans betrayed them, with the betrayal extending to spren, stone, and wind. But, just as with the "Lost Radiants", the betrayal is not explicitly described. That seems intentionally vague to me. As if leaving enough room for something to be interpreted as a betrayal, with the singers interpreting the humans' actions as one, even if it hadn't been intended as one. As I said, the second thing that didn't make sense was why Honor would choose humans who'd supported Odium over the singers who had been of Roshar, especially if they had betrayed the singers who had taken them in. Imagining it as humans going back and forth between Honor and Odium seems unlikely. I think it much more likely that the human abandoned Odium shortly after arriving on Roshar. They saw Honor, and maybe Cultivation, as being more worthy deities, and chose to worship them instead. But then, what triggered the Desolations? Jealousy. As the introduction to chapter 32 of WoR, we get the following passage from a listener's song. The spren betrayed us, it's often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us our forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can't provide what the humans lend, Though broth are we, their meat is men. This is the passage that sparked this theory when I first read WoR and then Oathbringer a few years ago, with the last line being the most significant to me. If the Listeners had this song, then they knew about the bond between spren and humans/singers. And this passage makes it seem like spren seem to prefer humans to singers for some reason. The betrayals between singers and spren are mentioned in RoW on at least two occasions. The first is mentioned by Blended during Adolin's trial, when she's testifying against him. The second betrayal is implied by Leshwi to Venli, when she says the spren have forgiven them. But what exactly were these betrayals? I think it has to do with how humans can become surge binders much more easily than singers. Syl tells Kaladin in WoR that Parshendi can't become surgebinders, and Venli expresses her surprise to bonding Timbre in Oathbringer for the same reason. I don't know why spren can bond humans more easily, my current guess is because their emotions are more accessible, but if large numbers of spren were drawn to humans and away from singers after the humans arrived, that could easily be seen as a betrayal that extends to the spren, wind, and stones. This leads to my previous conclusion, where singer jealousy is specifically what triggered all this, which is also the betrayal mentioned by Blended. Odium almost certainly fanned the flames, increasing the ancient singers' jealousy of humans drawing the spren, and making them angry at the spren for "betraying" them, but that jealousy was his opening. The singers turned to Odium, who granted them the power to take revenge on humans, which made them the easily manipulated army he wanted. Thoughts?