Letryx13

Preservation double crossed Ruin, to be sure, but that doesn't mean he broke the deal. Exploiting a loophole would still be a double cross, or at least could be interpreted that way. And if he had broken the deal, wouldn't Ruin have been able to kill him immediately, or right after he escaped the prison? I always thought it was Preservation's unraveling mind, the part of him that he sacrificed, that allowed for Ruin to slowly kill him. The two may be equal, but if one of the two has less of a mind controlling it, it's going to lose. But I see your point. We don't know exactly how long it takes to kill a Shard if their soul's have been damaged. And the way Preservation's mind unraveled sounds similar to what the Storm Father has described what Honor was like in the end. As for why Vin's actions would go against the deal, I commented before, all Preservation really agreed to was not to permanently stop Ruin. Leras may have made the deal, but as he himself says, all he really did was slow Ruin down. Vin is the one that stopped him permanently, which went against the deal. It's hard to say exactly which deal is protecting Hoid, but I'd guess one that involved himself and Odium, such as the one after the Shattering as you suggest, and also Honor's restrictions. But if Hoid is caught violating his agreement with Odium, that almost certainly invalidates Hoid from any form of protection against Odium from either deal. I can't say for sure that it cancel's out Honor's protection of Hoid, but it seems very likely. But if Odium were prevented from influencing anyone on Roshar, then he wouldn't have been able to influence Dalinar, Amaram, Moash, the singers, or any of the humans he won over to his side. Sure, the unmade played a part with Dalinar, but Odium himself said that he'd been speaking to both Dalinar and Amaram for years. Odium may not be capable of drawing someone into a spiritual realm vision without the everstorm or a strong connection, but subtle influence is a well established tactic for him. Likely, he has to resort to that to get around Honor's restrictions against harming people. Well, he did include his name on the contract. I don't know if that means he signed it or what, but it's pretty solid confirmation. Regardless, I didn't mean I think helping with the contract or anything along those lines is a violation of their agreement. We don't know exactly what they've agreed to, so it's impossible to know for sure what Hoid is allowed to do. But either way, he probably did know for a fact that Hoid was his enemy. Honor and Cultivation were likely much more united than Devotion and Dominion. Those two were not as strongly opposed as Preservation and Ruin, but they weren't exactly getting along either. Honor probably allowed Odium to come to save the humans travelling to Roshar, in exchange for certain promises from Odium.

Leras says himself that he exploited a loophole, but I admit, it comes extremely close to breaking his agreement with Ruin. The deal could probably be considered to have been broken by Vin, but since the shard wasn't fully integrated into her soul and she didn't survive anyway, that doesn't really matter. The important point is that Odium doesn't know that Hoid is violating the agreements. He probably suspects it, but unless he can know for certain, he can't take direct action against Hoid without causing harm to himself. That's why Hoid couldn't keep the bubble going during the chapter The Dog and the Dragon. Hoid says Odium will notice if he keeps it going too long, and admits to violating their agreement which exposes him to Odium's direct action. In the chapter Terms, Odium says Honor's restriction prevent him from using his powers on most individuals. And in one of the interludes, Jah-Anat tells Taravangian that he is no longer exempt from Odium's actions, I assume because he made a deal to work for Odium. Considering that Rayse knew full well that Hoid was acting against him (he had proof in the contract Dalinar tried to get Odium to agree to, if nothing else) there's no reason to think that Odium wouldn't hurt Hoid if he could without hurting himself. And yet Rayse never did. He knew Hoid was an enemy and was working with Dalinar, so why wouldn't Rayse want to something, anything, that could hinder the people he was fighting against. I admit this is largely speculation and it could be because Rayse never found Hoid before the RoW epilogue, but if that's the case, then why would Hoid risk exposing himself? It doesn't make sense. Besides, Rayse seems to have had a specific hatred for Hoid, beyond what he feels for most people. It's hard to imagine he wouldn't do anything he could do to Hoid, just out of spite. And on the other hand, the only thing we really have to support shard honoring agreements in spirit is the one time Rayse told Taravangian that. I think he meant it, but I also think that's how Rayse chooses to interpret agreements. Well, there is one other example that came to me. Although I suppose it's more about the way the shards perceptions their own nature influence their actions. Ruin was able to create things, Sazed specifically points this out, if it meant he could use it to destroy more than he created. On the other hand, the original Preservation was unable to harm Elend on his own, even to try and stop Ruin, and save more than he destroyed. That's about the shard's nature itself, not an agreement, but the two overlap. Granted, these are two different shards, but their acceptance of actions that go against their individual natures differ. Well, I suppose that depends on how similar the Nahel bond is to what the Shards are. I admit this is my interpretation, but the way spren choose their knights, and guide them toward ideals seems very similar to how the power of Preservation chose Vin and how Leras wasn't able to deliberately harm someone. In the WoB, he says the contract was broken. But when exactly was it broken, and by whom? I do consider Vin to have broken the deal, but Leras specifically states that he exploited a loophole. I don't remember exactly, but I don't think Odium actually said Honor was letter of the law when it came to oaths. I thought he just said oaths were all Honor cared about, not about how someone adhered to them. And again, I'm not saying the spirit of an agreement is irrelevant, I'm saying how a shard perceives an oath determines whether or not they follow an oath in spirit or more technically. The way he described it, with the contest only working if both he and Dalinar entered into the agreement in good faith, suggests he was being honest about that part. His description of Honor is a completely separate matter. In the conversation with Dalinar where he was describing Honor, Odium was trying to win Dalinar over, and convince him that Honor hadn't been so wonderful, and that he, Odium, wasn't so bad. It makes sense that he would be less than honest in that situation, or at least very biased. But if he could lie about the contest and what was at stake, then he didn't need to say anything about being in Dalinar's power if he broke his word or about Dalinar being in his power if Dalinar broke his word. He'd already implied to Dalinar that Cultivation could kill him if he killed the StormFather. Approaching a contest or agreement in good faith requires candid honesty, so it's unlikely he was lying or holding anything back in the conversation where he and Dalinar set term. My original theory, that Dalinar or his champion will win and but Odium will somehow be unable to fulfill his end of the deal, which results in Odium being in Dalinar's power. These two factors tie together in terms of Odium's honesty and how literally the contract is interpreted. Odium is required to return Alethkar and Herdaz to Dalinar if Dalinar wins. But if he doesn't have them to return anymore (maybe the radiants recover Herdaz somehow or a third party claims Alethkar) is Odium violating the agreement between the two? If someone looked at the spirit of the agreement, then Odium abandoning the two countries could be seen as still fullfilling the contract. But a more literal interpretation could call that violating the agreement, since Odium didn't return the countries and their people to Dalinar. Which is why I think someone with a more literal interpretation of contracts, such as someone like Taravangian who wanted to write out a contract with Rayse, could change how the contract is viewed. This is exactly what I mean. Mindset and perception can change what someone will do and consider acceptable even if bound by the same set of rules. And I agree there are plenty of nuances in agreements with things are debatable, such as what constitutes harm.

We've yet to see a Shard that was both free to harm people and malicious in nature. Both Ruin and Odium were bound by other shards, so that's not helpful. But Hoid said that his soul would be ripped into nothingness if Odium found him breaking their agreement. So it's probably safe to say that Odium would strike someone down if he was able and thought they were a threat to him. I think I'm not explaining my point very well. One of the things that Odium is forbidden to do is harm people. And yet, Taravangian was able to destroy the Breaths Hoid was holding. Taravangian obviously doesn't consider that harming him. But would someone who does view destroying the breaths as causing Hoid harm be able to do the same thing? Rayse likely did. Whether or not he actually breaks the contract doesn't matter as much as whether or not he perceives it as breaking the contract, at least, that's how I see it. I don't meant to suggest that the radiant oaths follow the same rules as the shards, although I do find some parallels between them. In fact, I think in a lot of ways that radiants are watered down version of the shards and their vessels. But I just mean that in both cases, the perception of the person holding the power is what defines how it behaves. Kaladin killing someone is acceptable, as long as he perceives it as right, but standing back and allowing someone else be killed is not acceptable, if Kaladin doesn't perceive it as right. I think it's the same with a Shard adhering to a contract. An action doesn't hurt the Shard, unless that shard perceives their action as violating a contract or agreement. Although, I do have to admit, I find it weird that Taravangian is bound by an agreement Rayse made. If I recall correctly, the StormFather said that the reason Odium didn't want to fight directly was because it risked coaxing out forces that could hurt him. Odium himself was the one that stated harming people would leave him vulnerable to Cultivation to kill him. As for Autonomy, I don't know of any actual contracts or agreements she's made, so we'll have to wait and see on that one. And again, I only use the radiant oaths as an example of the role perception plays. I think the two are similar, in regards to that role. It's about a loophole in one of the few contracts between shards that we've seen, so I'd say it's pretty on point. Preservation may have set things in motion, but Leras himself didn't do anything to kill Ruin. He acted in a way that Vin would be able to do so, but Leras himself never planned to finish Ruin off. Which I suppose is another kind of loophole. If that sort of nuance weren't allowed, then Odium probably wouldn't have been allowed to influence people to fight for him. Again, Odium isn't exactly what I'd call a reliable source of information in regards to Honor. The StormFather confirmed he lied about caring only about oaths. And the difference is about perception. If two people perceive an oath or agreement differently, with one person seeing it more as a matter of a matter of the general intent and the other seeing it as strict rules to follow, then they might act differently, while both still believing themselves to be in adherence to that role. I get the feeling that Odium has been honest about the consequences of breaking oaths, especially the part about ripping a hole in his soul that would allow Cultivation to kill him. The way the shards seem to have trouble going against the nature of the power they hold seems similar to how the StormFather describes taking any action that goes against his nature causing him pain. However, I'm hoping that he was telling the truth completely, so that if Dalinar or his side can force Odium to break his word somehow (as I suggested in previous comments) then Dalinar can make Odium return to Braize and never influence, empower, or interact with anyone ever again. Agreed. Vin was able to get around Preservation's deal with Ruin because she'd only held the power for a few hours, but if she'd somehow survived and held the power longer, it might have injured her for killing Ruin. Taravangian will have held the power for nearly ten days by the time of the contest, so that should be enough time for the power to have a grip on him. I think it's impossible for the contract not to matter completely. And if anything, Taravangian's more technical way of looking at things may be his undoing.

I believe Hood mentions he has an agreement with Odium in the chapter where he tells the story of the dog and the dragon to Kaladin. Of course, Hoid is violating that agreement, but as long as Odium doesn't figure that out, he can't touch Hoid. And Odium specifically states in the chapter where he sets terms with Dalinar that his agreement with Honor is what prevents him from harming most people on Roshar. They may be bound by the same agreement, but they may disagree on whether or not something violates it. The agreement itself hasn't changed, but how Taravangian views it could be very different from how Rayse would. For example, imagine a shard was bound by a promise to always speak the truth. One person in that situation may consider omitting essential facts from a statement to be a lie of omission, while a different person doesn't consider it a lie, since nothing untrue was said. One would be capable of it and the other wouldn't be. Also, the key to almost all forms of investiture is intent, and personal perspective is a part of that. Kaladin and Syl have multiple discussions about how killing the parshendi to save Dalinar didn't damage their bond, while him standing back and allowing Elhokar to be assassinated nearly broke their bond. Kaladin eventually concludes that the oaths, which are similar to the rules that bind the Shards, are about perception as much as anything. I think the way the shards are bound by promises this way are that they can't lie to themselves about it. If they truly believe that they are doing something that breaks their word, the power damages them. The nature of the power they hold restricts them that way. Similar to how if a radiant goes against their ideals, as Kaladin did, the bond weakens. No matter how much he told himself that he was justified, he knew all along it was wrong. However, as Kaldin also points out, perspectives among people can be different. Two people can look at the same situation and while being completely honest, can see the situation differently. For example, if a shard were bound to punish someone responsible for some tragedy, if it was debatable who was ultimately responsible for said tragedy, different people in the shard's situation might punish different people. Preservation exploited a loophole, which Preservation admits to in secret history. Preservation agreed that Ruin would eventually be allowed to destroy what they had created, but the key word in that statement is eventually. All he really agreed to was not to permanently take away Ruin's ability to destroy what they created. Meaning he couldn't kill Ruin, which he couldn't do anyway, or otherwise permanently render him impotent. He could slow Ruin down indefinitely, but not stop him permanently. Which I part of the reason why I think that it is possible for shards to look at these deals in that kind of way. As for Honor only caring about the letter of an agreement, the only time I remember anyone describing Honor that way was Odium to Dalinar. Which the source of the information is already unreliable. And if I remember it correctly, he says that all Honor cares about is oaths, not specifically the letter of an agreement. Although I may be misremembering that particular section.

Technically, no. Dalinar said he intended to be his own champion. But since the contest hasn't started yet, officially no champion has been selected. Odium originally intended Dalinar to be his champion, saying he knew who his champion was, but since he never actually said "You are my champion, Dalinar" or something to that effect, then Odium isn't forced to call Dalinar as his champion. Sanderson specifically left wiggle room in both of their wordings when the champions were discussed. I'm not sure what would happen to the contract if Dalinar were to be assisinated before hand, although since Odium's champion didn't win the contest, he wouldn't have a claim on Dalinar's soul yet, so Taravangian wouldn't be able to claim him before he passed on completely. I mean, Honor's death didn't invalidate his restrictions on Odium, so the contest could still be in play. On the other hand, since Dalinar would be gone, Odium couldn't return Alethkar and Herdaz to him, which could complicate things. Oh boy, as much as I don't want it to happen, Dalinar being killed before the contest could be an amazing plot twist. Maybe with Kaladin stepping in to take his place. The problem with using the "spirit of the agreement" is that Rayse was the one that said he honored agreements that way. Taravangian actually wanted to write a contract with Rayse when he made his deal with the Shard. We don't know how Taravangian will treat the situation. But as I've said before, judging by how he got around the deal Rayse had with Hoid to destroy the breaths Hoid was holding, it seems like he follows things in a very technical way. I'm tapping into my inner Cryptic here, but perspective can change everything. Two people bound by identical contracts to a third party might disagree on whether or not something violates it, with one valuing the contract in spirit and the other being more technical.

The contest is supposed to be a fight to the death, although even Dalinar isn't exactly sure what the fight will be. My problem with a tie as the outcome is that it doesn't free Odium from the restrictions placed on him by Honor. Sure, it invalidates the contest of champions, which means the war can continue and Odium doesn't have to return Alethkar and Herdaz, but that doesn't mean Dalinar broke his end of the deal. The only way Odium gets out of Honor's restrictions are if Dalinar either intentionally frees him, or he goes against their deal. Even if the contest of champions is invalidated, unless Dalniar or Odium broke their word in the process, they're right back where they started before they agreed to a contest. Todium is trying to find a way out of Honor's restriction, while Rayse was content, for the time being, with being able to send out his forces to other worlds. I think it's safe to say that whatever Taravangian is planning, it's something that includes freeing himself from Roshar in the outcome.

I've listened to that chapter several times from the audio book, and it's definitely Teft's voice calling him "lad". I'm confident that Dalinar did for Kaladin something very similar to what happened with Dalinar and Nohadon in Oathbringer. A connection to the spiritual realm.

Odium's just a narcissist. He wants to be worshipped by everyone. It makes sense that he wouldn't give power to anyone unless they praised and worshipped him.

I agree completely. I think it's better to have characters that are significant even without having powers, such as Doxon in MistBorn. It's a way of showing someone doesn't have to have special powers to make a difference. That said, I'd also be willing to make an exception if it means restoring Maya. I believe Sanderson has confirmed that Adolin is the kind of person that Maya would have wanted to bond to make an EdgeDancer, and I'm convinced this played a part in the recovery she's made so far. What I'd really like to see is for Adolin to restore Maya, and then struggle with the decision of whether or not to say the oaths and become a radiant. He's had doubts about his usefulness, thinking that Roshar needed radiants, not princes, which suggests he'd want to become a radiant. On the other hand, he's said that he's fine with his life as it is, and doesn't want to add on the burdens of being a radiant and living to a spren's ideals. But I think this might be something similar to how Kaladin has always panicked or hesitated when presented with shardblades before his third ideal, but has never had a problem use Syl as a shard weapon. I suspect it would be something similar for Adolin bonding Maya. Of course, I also worry it might take more than bonding Adolin to restore Maya. Judging by how things worked for the seons and Ellantris, I think it might take repairing the damage done to Roshar to heal the dead-eyes.

Lol, right idea, wrong entities.

I seem to get a lot of random thoughts while reading your posts, but does anyone think maybe the three moons have anything to do with the BondSmith spren and the NightWatcher? Hoid's story in OathBringer was supposedly an origin story for Axis the collector and the blue skin of the Natan people. But in his story, he references how crafty Mishim is, while Notum is revered. That sounds like it could be descriptions of the NightWatcher and StormFather respecively. On top of that, they're referred to as siblings in the story. Over analyzing maybe?

To paraphrase a favorite character of mine, I knew I couldn't have been the first to think of this. Oh, she's definitely worthy of being a BondSmith level spren, I'm not denying that. The fact that she can grant such powers and curses to people proves she's significantly more powerful than almost all other radiant spren. And since BondSmith powers tend to differ greatly between the three, I'm sure anyone who bonds her can do some impressive and unusual stuff. I just think she's a little lacking compared to the Sibling and StormFather, that's all.

Yeah, this seems way too much to be a coincidence. Also, I have no idea why this came to me as I was reading this post, but an idea occurred to me. Is it just me, or does the Night Watcher seem like the weakest of the BondSmith spren? The StormFather is probably the strongest, since he’s the soul of the storm that makes it possible to live on most of Roshar. The Sibling is the actual city of Uritheru, capable of suppressing the power of the Fused, and making the tower livable. That doesn’t seem as powerful as the StormFather, but still pretty impressive. And then the Night Watcher grants small wishes and curses people. Do you think she’s capable of more, or is that all she can do?

I think a lot of people have had this idea. The mention of Radiant's having Rhyshadium in WoR when I first read it was what made me agree with it, but there are subtle hints. Adolin mentions that Gallant appears different in Shadesmar, he also says Rhyshadium are sometimes called the third Shard and compares them to Spren choosing a knight, and just the bond that both Dalinar and Adolin describe as having with Rhyshadium. It feels similar to the Nahel bond. Of course, not all mounts would need to be Rhysium, and perhaps not every animal a radiant would bond would necessarily be a mount. Maybe WindRunners and SkyBreakers would bond with sky eels, with the bond allowing the animal to keep up with the radiant. But I agree, this seems like a very good idea. Feels a little like what they did with Avatar, the Last Airbender.

That's the one, I think. He sure seems to suggest that Hood would have accepted a different shard, if he'd gotten to choose.

I don’t remember where, but I’m pretty sure I saw a WoB where he said that Hoid would have chosen to be a shard, if he could have gotten a specific one. But he hasn’t said which one.

That's probably a good way to think of it. His biggest asset isn't the power he's gathered, it's the information he holds. That's his real edge. I guess it's the fact that he doesn't seem to really trust anyone completely that makes it difficult to see him as trustworthy.

Resurrecting Adonalsium seems like a probable goal for him. But I suspect it's more likely that he's trying to become a new version of Adolnasium. He's acquiring the power of all the shards, but what he could do with that much power is concerning. I still think it's likely that Hoid is the final enemy for Sanderson's Cosmere. Odium hasn't been gathering the powers, be broke them. He locked away the powers of Devotion and Dominion, and splintered both Ambition and Honor. Hoid's and Harmony's letters state that Odium rendered the powers unusable, because he likely doesn't want to change who he is. As for Odium being stronger, it was more about how concentrated his power was, compared to the other shards. Before, he kept his power for himself, while the other shards spread their power into the worlds they watched over. It's a little different now on Roshar, but that's a big part of how he's beaten so many Shards. Since Harmony holds two Shards, He likely is more powerful, at least by one measurement, than Odium. Finally, I think Odium will be defeated in StormLight book 5. Sanderson has been pretty good about not having a single threat be prevalent for too long, at least, not in a way that the readers are aware of them. Odium was barely mentioned until WoR. The Lord Ruler didn't survive the first MistBorn book, and while Ruin influenced things through Era 1, he didn't take much direct action until THoA. Odium is the most dangerous of the sixteen; so as far as I can tell, there's really only one place to go from there. Hoid's admitted that part of the reason he's fighting Odium and Bavadin is because of a grudge. But I also think he's doing it because he wants to remove them, or at least Odium, because they're obstacles to whatever he's trying to do. The way that he's been so secretive and concealing of his true nature, even with those he's working with, like Harmony or the Radiants, makes me think that he's up to something that isn't completely positive for the Cosmere. After all, Hoid has at one point admitted that he'd sacrifice Roshar to get what he needed. And that mindset feels a little too similar to Tarravangian for my liking.

As I've said before, I consider Third Ideal Radiants on average (excluding BondSmiths) to be about equal with MistBorn that don't have Atium. Shardblades are possibly the most effective fight finisher we've seen in the Cosmere, and StormLight grants stamina and healing second only to compounding. True, MistBorn have pewter for stamina, which is formidable, but it helps them ignore damage instead of repair it, which has a much bigger drawback when it's used up than StormLight does. Radiant abilities seem more powerful while MistBorn are more versatile; both are valid forms of strength. That said, WindRunner maneuverability matches or even surpasses that of a MistBorn, taking away a MistBorn's biggest advantage. So I'd give this very slightly in the WindRunner's favor, in a 55% to 45% kind of way. Much like Sanderson says, I think the environment of the fight determines the outcome, more than anything else; how much metal is around and whether there is room for a WindRunner to fly, and so on. But on average, I'd give it to the WindRunner.

Ok, the epilogue may not confuse me much, but this timeline sure does. Thanks

Do we have confirmation of that?

That could potentially be a good thing. The fact that he is able to get around even the shard's notice (without us understanding how) while gathering the powers all of the different shards has made me nervous for a long time. Sometimes the most difficult opponent isn't the one with the most power, but the one who can adapt and respond to any situation. Versatility is a strength. Judging by the way the GhostBloods are described in each of the most recent StormLight and MistBorn books, I think the StormLight books take place after MistBorn Era 2. In TLM, I don't remember the exact line, but he thought they weren't big enough yet to protect Scadrial from looming threats. But in RoW, Mraise calls them the most powerful organization in the Cosmere. That could be bravado, bias, or an exaggeration, but considering how they've been trying to exploit the desolation to their benefit, I think they've simply grown much stronger since the days of Wax and Wayne. Which means StormLight Archives takes place after MistBorn Era 2. I thought that too. If the difference is as dramatic as it seems, Hoid should have noticed. It would be like taking someone's glasses away or a hearing aid or something like that. It seems very unrealistic for him not to notice. My guess is that either he'll notice the Breaths were destroyed, or some conversation with Design will tip him off that something happened. Honestly, the epilogue wasn't confusing to me. It was unsettling. What exactly was done to Hoid doesn't bother me nearly as much as the fact that there was someone who finally got the better of him. And that the person who did just so happens to be in possession of the most dangerous power in the Cosmere.

Again, I don't disagree. But all that regarding the heralds means is that the power can be specialized. Personally, I think it's a combination that allows for the manipulation of bonds. I don't think a less powerful version of the Storm Father would allow for the same kind of Nahel bond manipulation that we saw Ishar do, for example. It requires both the specialized ability of Adhesion, and sufficient power behind it. Of course, we know that other shards have access to connection as well. Not to get too off topic, but Feruchemy can allow for manipulation of connection. So it's not ridiculous to assume that Odium could allow for the power in some form or another. Another idea I've had for the power of connection, and perhaps it's true potential, is to draw power from others into oneself using connections with them. Drawing on the strength of others to increase the user's own power. If something like that were possible, and I suspect it could be, then there's no limit to what the power of Adhesion could do.

I don't disagree, but to be fair, the only time we've seen Ishar manipulate bonds was with his Honorblade, which was forged from Honor's soul. So it's still connected to his power in some form.

WindRunner's access to Adhesion is probably the reason why they can have so many squires. Kaladin had something close to two dozen during Oathbringer. I always perceived it as BondSmiths can connect more strongly through spiritual connection, while WindRunners can connect to a greater number of people. It's possible Adhesion Fused could be capable of something similar, but not in an empowering squires sort of way. But that might be the kind of power Odium fears. Ordinary charisma is powerful. Supernaturally enhanced charisma could turn Odium's whole army on its head if any of the Fused with that power rebelled, like Leshwi has.