Letryx13

Odium specifically states the contest would happen on the tenth day of "next" month when proposing the exact time to Dalinar, and Dalinar doesn't state the next month when declaring final terms, just the name of the month. But even looking at it technically, it would be hard to argue, even for Todium, about stalling for a later year.

I think that might be a little harsh on Kaladin. I agree completely that he was overly harsh on light eyes because of what happened with Roshone, Laurel, and everthing in Hearthstone, believing their behavior proved all light eyes were bad. But after Tien died, that sergeant said something to the effect of finding a use for soldiers that couldn't fight. It's understandable that Kaladin assumed Tien was used as a sacrifice. I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying about Dalinar's past. I always thought it was meant to show how he'd changed from the bloodthirsty monster he had been when he was younger into the (much better) person he is now.

The thing about flashbacks is that they give context. They explain events in the past that led up to current ones. We may not have seen the actual events in a flashback, but we've heard about it from two different perspectives, including Moash himself. We know exactly why he left being a caravan worker, that he joined Sadeas' army to try to win a Shard blade, why he tried to kill Elhokar, why he abandoned Kaladin and Bridge 4, and why he eventually succeeded in killing Elhokar. True, we didn't see or hear any of that through Moash's eyes and ears, but we still got to see it, and we know exactly why it happened. The only relevant things about his past we don't really know is what exactly his grandparents were charged with, whether or not they were guilty, and what precisely caused their deaths. But we do know exactly why he threw them away. He wanted revenge. He explicitly claimed that Elhokar murdered his grandparents (highly debatable) calling them the only family he ever had. If family meant so much to him, then he's a hypocrite, considering Bridge 4 have consistently referred to each other as family. I don't remember if Moash himself ever referred to them that way, but he sure seemed to consider Bridge 4 to be something special, considering how he twice accused Kaladin of turning on a member of Bridge 4 when Kaladin confronted him. He acted as if their group were something sacred, and then threw them away when it suited him.

I've wondered that too. I feel like StormFather and NightWatcher are more titles than actual names, and I bet the Sibling has a name that it hasn't revealed.

I usually skip the prologue of WoK when I listen to that book, so it's been a while since I've covered that. I'd forgotten that Szeth said that. And I wasn't aware of the WoB. Thanks. Hopefully that's the only thing the Honor Blades can't heal.

Do we know that for a certainty? Teft assumed Bridge Four would be able to heal themselves with the honorblade if they hurt themselves with it.

I get the living plate, but what makes you think their healing is inferior? The blades seemed to grant the same level of healing, just needing more stormlight with regular people. And Szeth implied that the reason normal people needed more stormlight was because their bodies weren't as suited for the power.

Dalinar also mentions in the vision with Midnight Essence that the creatures walk around on six legs, but don't seem natural to him. Which implies that lots of animals on Roshar, even most native species, are six-limbed. So I agree, that does seem likely. That's kind of what I'm thinking. They're not just a different type of animal, but a whole new category altogether.

They're probably something else entirely, some kind of animal kingdom or family we don't naturally have. Close to mammals, but not quite. In another post I mentioned how gem hearts feel like a clam's pearl to me, which makes them feel like a different type of animal altogether. But still, close to mammals. I love armadillos. I've always like animals with built in armor.

That's actually a pretty good one. Accepting help or being willing to let others protect themselves are the two most likely possibilities, I think. Protecting enemies would probably fall under the third ideal, and Kaladin already has the mindset not to kill more than he needs to. He's let singers and even fuzed go before when they weren't a threat any longer. Teft's third ideal was about protecting people he hated too, it just included an acknowledgement that he hated himself more than anyone.

It's not just about him having taken an easy path, although that is a significant part of it. He's done many terrible things, betraying people who had been nearly family to him, in order to get what he wants. It's that betrayal combined with his refusal to accept responsibility for it (choosing the easy path, as you say) that makes him so terrible and hated. Kaladin gave him a blade and armor that were priceless, and Moash used them to attack Kaladin, and nearly kill Kaladin, all while trying to get revenge on a king who's culpability in Moash's grandparent's death is questionable. And then he thinks it's not his fault because he was pushed to do it. There are some differences between Moash and Dalinar, Venli, Jasnah, and Szeth. There are at least some mitigating factors for all of them. They don't excuse the behavior, but they do change the circumstances. Szeth did everything he did as a truthless because he though he was honor bound to do it. He hated himself the whole time, and wanted to stop. I think he's a fool for not thinking he had another choice, but he sincerely believed he had to keep following orders. Jasnah's killing of the thieves in Kharbranth is morally questionable. In fact I dislike her character because of it, but the people she killed were criminals in a corrupt city, making the situation a little more nuanced. And her hiring of assassins is again something I don't agree with, but it's implied that she does it to help keep order in Alethkar, and to protect her family. Terrible, absolutely, but for sincere reasons. Venli is a character I couldn't stand at first in RoW. Within the same chapter she laments the loss of her people and is frustrated that Odium didn't make her a queen for bringing the Everstorm. But the decisions she made weren't completely her doing. Ulim manipulated and misled her about what the storm would do, and likely influenced her emotions as a void spren. Yes, she did much of what she did was for her own glory, but she started out by wanting to save her mother. And as Rlain noted, it's impossible to tell how much of her decisions were as a result of Ulim's influence. But she still accepts her own responsibility, and recognized herself as a coward during the battle of Narak. As for Dalinar, much of his early brutality was on battlefields while uniting Alethkar under his brother or defending the country. Not exactly a dishonorable reason for fighting. Yes, he wanted to be out fighting, but it's not like he went out murdering people for the fun of it. And he was influenced by the thrill, similarly to how Venli was influenced by Odium. So he can't bear full blame for it. And as for the Rift, even on that day Dalinar recognized that they'd gone too far. Dalinar may have tried to blame Evy for her own death at first, (which was denial at it's finest) but he was haunted by the screams of the children that he burned that day. He knew he was responsible. The terrible things Moash has done, however, are on him. Nobody really pushed him, that we ever actually saw, and no one influenced his emotions. He threw away Bridge Four of his own free will, after claiming that Elhokar killed the only family he'd ever known. And he was willing to kill Kaladin to get his revenge. He later acknowledged he was a traitor twice over, but then went out of his way to justify his behavior. Behavior that was entirely for his own selfish reasons.

This topic was another good one that explored his potential redemption. Personally, I think it's extremely unlikely. Renarin's interlude with Taravangian brings up the idea that no one is completely beyond saving, which is a reasonable belief, but given what he's done, and the fact that it's specifically stated that Moash is not sorry for what he's done, it's a huge longshot. The big question is, what could he possibly do to redeem himself after everything he's done? Somehow growing a conscience and playing a key role in defeating Odium is about the only thing I can think of, and it's hard to imagine that happening. Immortality to have to face what he's done and lost forever would be a fitting punishment in my book. Brandon repeatedly emphasizes the idea that living is harder than dying.

Taravangian's perception of "saving" probably factors in as well. He was arrogant enough to believe he was the only one smart enough to save Roshar, no matter what horrors he had to commit to do it, and that likely is only going to be worse in his current situation. He's more sinister because we've spent four books coming to understand him, and what motivates him. We never knew Odium as Rayse the mortal, despite Hoid's description as one of the most dangerous men he'd ever met. Odium was a force, and forces don't (normally) have personalities ascribed them in detail. But Taravangian is someone we know, and is someone we understand exactly how dangerous he was as a frail old man. And now that dangerous old man hold's the power of a deity. I agree with the idea that Taravangian fits the second case very well, but his pride very much factors into the equation with everything he's done too. Dalinar hit the nail on the head when he described Taravangian as someone that wants to prove that he's the smartest, the best, the greatest ruler of Roshar; the only one that could have saved them. Taravangian wants to prove (if only to himself) that all the people that called him stupid all his life were wrong. That's why he asks for the words the surgeon said when he was born so often. The question is, what does it mean to "save" someone? I think the way he sees it is that if he kills the other shards and unites the Cosmere under his sole rule, then he'll be saving everyone from weak leadership. The shard is bound to the system, since the investiture makes up the majority of Odium. According to the chapter in RoW where Odium and Dalinar were negotiating, it's Honor's restrictions that keep Odium trapped there, and in another chapter the StormFather says it's the combined power of Honor and Cultivation. My theory is that it's some kind of oath that Honor had Odium make in order for him to let the people of Ashyn come to Roshar. Either way, Odium (no matter who holds the power and title) is stuck unless freed by Honor or someone representing Honor. As for Odium not being able to harm people, Jah Anat tells Taravangian that he's excempted from such protections because of the deal he made with Odium. And in that same negotiation chapter between Odium and Dalinar, Odium says that if Dalinar reneges on their deal then Odium will be released from Honor's restrictions and be free to use his powers on most individuals. So it's likely a deal or Oath between Honor and Odium. And I assume that protection doesn't seem like enough for Hoid, since he's kind of a wild card, so that's probably why there's the extra line in the contract for him.

I consider a FullBorn and a fully realized BondSmith to be about even. Atium with a FullBorn might not greatly help against a BondSmith anyway. Dalinar described Ishar as being able to tell what the WindRunners were going to do before they did it, which could be a power similar to Atium. That could just be a testament to Ishar's skill, but it seems extremely specific. I have no clue how such a power connects to BondSmithing, but they can do some incredible things. BondSmiths with living plate would probably tip the balance in favor of the BondSmith, since a FullBorn would need to break through the armor before being able to do anything. The powers of various shards held by people, such as MistBorn, Feruchemists, Radiants and so on, likely involve a connection to the shards. And it's not hard to imagine a BondSmith being able to mess with that, based on what Ishar said and did to Dalinar. But without living plate, it boils down to whether the BondSmith can mess with the FullBorn's connections before being defeated, which is hard to determine. I lean toward fully realized BondSmith, for several reasons. First, because we probably don't know anything close to the full extent of their powers, and the ones we've seen are already impressive. Second, because the StormFather was even more afraid of Ishar than he was of NightBlood, and NightBlood is one of the most dangerous things we've seen in the cosmere so far. Third, because the easiest way a FullBorn could defeat any radiant would be to outspeed them with compounding Feruchemical speed, but it seems that BondSmiths can alter time themselves to some extent, mitigating that advantage. I don't think the FullBorns are completely outclassed, but think fully realized BondSmiths would win more times than not.

You can take a capital city that quickly. Besides, if it truly is a third party, such as the ghostbloods, then we have no way of knowing their forces or what position they might be in. I already said that it took time to get Odium's forces to Kholinar. But Kaladin's team were just trying to secure the capital city and get their forces there to help defend it. The singers might have been occupying part of the country, but Alethkar didn't truly fall until the capital did. We have absolutely no idea what forces of the Ghostbloods are on Roshar, so there's no way to say whether they could pull that off or not. And the saying on Roshar is that shard bearers can't hold ground, not that they can't take ground. Depending on the forces holding the Herdazian capital, a small force of radiants might be able to take the city, especially if they brought the Mink along to cause a rebellion. In truth, that seems the likeliest scenario in my mind. If Odium didn't have enough forces nearby, which isn't unlikely considering he considers the country unimportant, then that situation is flipped, and he would be the one unable to reconquer the Herdazian capital. Yes, he controls two countries bordering Herdaz, but we don't know how his forces are stationed. He'd have to rely on Heavenly ones, who might not be as willing to follow Odium as they used to be. Can't say for sure how most fuzed will react to recent discoveries, but still. As for the Herdazian islands, Odium has to return the country's entire population, in tact. Not half the occupants, not some of the occupants, all of their occupants. Rayse was the one who held to contracts in spirit. Taravangian seems to be more letter of the law. He even wanted to have a written contract when he made his deal with Rayse, and exploited a very technical loophole with Hoid. But let's say you're correct, can you honestly say that you've returned the entire country and its occupants (even in spirit) if you haven't returned the capital or its people? If you haven't given back the core city of the entire country, have you given back the country? That's not the point. The point is, the agreement was for the entire country and its occupants. If you don't have the capital, you don't have the entire country, do you?

This is one of the reasons why I think it needs to be a third party, such as the Ghostbloods or some other of world presence on Roshar, to take either Alethkar or Herdaz. And it wouldn’t need to be the entire country. Alethkar wasn’t truly considered fallen until Odium’s forces seized the capital. The reverse should apply here, to both Herdaz and Alethkar. Besides, they only need to get one of the two to force Odium to default. And while it’s true that it took time for Odium to gather his forces in Kholinar, the city fell in less than a day. We don’t know what forces are in the capital of Herdaz, the easier of the two to take, but it’s entirely possible something similar could happen. Especially if Taravangian’s attention is focused elsewhere, which isn’t unlikely, since Rayse himself said that Herdaz was insignificant. Odium is supposed to return both Herdaz and Alethkar, along with their entire populations. If anything, looking at the agreement from a technical persepct, the opposite of what you said is true. If they can keep Odium from returning even a single village’s worth of people to Dalinar, then he hasn’t kept his end of the deal, if Dalinar wins the contest. But I admit, that seems way too much of a technicality. It’s why I think it’s more likely that the capital of one or possibly both countries will be seized.

I’ve had similar ideas. I think these are likely to be plot points in book 5. There have been at least some political elements in every Stormlight book so far, and I suspect this is how politics will play into the story in book 5. Working to persuade neutral nations to join one side or another and possibly preventing defectors on each side. I’m not sure it’s wise to trust Ishar as a source of information. Sanderson has stated we should never trust anything the Heralds say in their unstable states. And I don’t think Szeth would intervene in the contest of champions. There’s a chance he may be one of the champions, but he’s sworn to obey Dalinar, so if he is told to keep out of it, he will. And his ideals are about laws, which probably extends to respecting the rules of such a duel. Kaladin kills when he has to, although since he became a Radiant, he’s mostly killed only singers. I agree that Rysn’s dawnshard is likely to play a role. It’s too powerful an element to remain unused, and there was a novella about it. That’s too much attention to be for nothing. I agree that El will probably not be the champion. Something this significant to the story will almost certainly involve characters who have been important from early on in the story. That’s why a lot of people think it will end up as a duel between Kaladin and Moash, myself included. I’ve posted this theory before, but I think conquering is the key to the loophole, indirectly. If Odium loses control of Alethkar or Herdaz, then he won’t be able to return them to Dalinar if Dalinar’s champion wins. Which would force him to break his word to Dalinar, placing him in Dalinar’s power. The only thing I’m not sure about is who would conquer Herdaz (likely the easier to seize) and how.

They'll probably continue with the theme of caring for people, but I suspect that either the fourth or fifth ideal will be similar to the WindRunner fourth ideal. That one was about accepting that the radiant would fail sometimes and being at peace with that fact. I think one EdgeDancer ideal will be about remembering to care about themselves too.

I've thought that too, but I'm hoping it actually means that Kaladin is directly descended from Tanavast. Personally, I'd love for a singer to take up the shard.

I agree. Taravangian isn't honorable, he's prideful. He thinks he knows what's best for everyone, and the lion's share of his motivation for doing everything he's done was to prove all the people that called him stupid were wrong. If he was honorable, he would have been able to admit to his mistakes, including those from the diagram. I've also thought for a long time that someone would re-forge the shard of Honor and take it up. But considering what happened with two other shards on another planet, I think it's likely to be someone we wouldn't normally expect. Sanderson's pretty good at pulling off those sorts of surprises.

I'd forgotten that singers had them when I wrote that. Hmm, considering that fused die when the gemheart is destroyed, then yes, it probably is central to them. And Amamaram's internal organs were replaced by a gemheart when he swallowed one of the unmade. It's possible that those are exceptions, but the gemhearts probably are something vital to them. I wonder what function they serve to the animals that have them.

I've always assumed gemhearts were something akin to pearls in clams. Not the animal's core, but something produced by them.

Honestly, all of the orders have their own strengths, so it's kind of hard to rank them against each other. I personally rank SoulCasting as the most practical and second most powerful ability after BondSmith powers, so I would call either LightWeavers or ElseCallers the second most powerful. It's probably the most difficult to learn after BondSmith powers too. On the other hand, pretty much all the orders have specific strengths that work in different situations, so it's hard to pin down a specific hierarchy of strength and power. Aside from WillShapers and TruthWatchers, all of the orders have abilities that are useful in combat. WindRunners, SkyBreakers, EdgeDancers, and DustBringers all have maneuverability, two of which also have the ability to melt rocks and burn through wood. WindRunners also have a numbers advantaged, as some people in this thread have noted. LightWeaves and ElseCallers can SoulCast, which is so versatile and powerful it's in a league of its own. And StoneWards can manipulate inanimate objects into all sorts of things, giving them a lot of control of their environment. Anyone without Gravitation is going to be in trouble there. So it's really hard to gauge the orders against each other. Yes, I know that TruthWatchers have access to Illumination; it's the order I belong to according to the Sanderson website quiz and I'm happy about that. But given how difficult it must be, since we've never heard of it happening yet with ancient radiants or modern, it's probably not something many people could do, even with the appropriate knowledge base. My guess is the only person with access to Illumination that will be creating lasers anytime soon is Hoid. And in order to really rank an order's strength compared to another, difficulty in learning and using an ability needs to be taken into consideration. Otherwise, we're just talking about which order is potentially the most powerful. This idea applies to SoulCasting as well, but I think that power still outweighs the difficulty of learning it, especially since lasers would be a specialized derivative of Illumination, not the core ability.

I've said it before, but I'm confident that the only radiant (at any ideal) that could beat a FullBorn is a BondSmith. They're just too powerful, for the other orders to defeat, except maybe by SoulCasting them from Shadesmar, but FullBorn are likely too invested for that.

Coming to the system and coming to Roshar itself are two different things. Honor's not a good comparison for this. We know Odium killed Honor, but we have no idea how he did it. If Honor broke some oath that wounded him enough for Odium to kill him, what was it? That can't possibly be the only way to defeat a shard. In fact, we know for certain it's not because of what happened with Rayse. There's likely some other way to wound a shard that we don't know about yet. That's an interesting one because Leras specifically tells Kelsier that he never stopped Ruin, just slowed him down. This is conflicting information between the story and WoB. I guess we just go with whichever one we like better. Odium is able to empower people, which seems like direct influence, considering he made a group of them immortal, and provides voidlight to fuel their abilities. Taking away peoples emotions is probably direct influence too, which we know he did to Moash and tried to use to tempt Dalinar. Granted, he doesn't seem able to do these things without their consent in some cases, but still. Besides if there were rules preventing shards from directly killing people, then Ruin wouldn't have been able to destroy Scadrial.