Tglassy

I'm wondering if he "Gifts" his powers by injecting them with his blood, the same way he injects theirs into him. Perhaps he not only can heal himself by giving others his injuries, but he can heal others by taking them. So he takes the Raven's et al's injuries into himself, transferring them to all the people he has locked away. And that's why he was able to give the injury back to whoever it was (been a while since I read it). As for Deathrise...honestly, my first thought is that it is an Epic. it was a person who's power was to possess people. Perhaps the ability to heal was his, instead of Lifeforce's? But maybe not. Either way, I feel like Deathrise is just another Epic, one who's body died, and s/he is just body hopping at this point.

I might just be strange, or it might be that I'm from Texas and haven't been back home in over ten years, but every time I start to reread Misborn, I can't wait to get to Alloy of Law. I just...I love it. All of Era 2 is my favorite of the cosmere books. And I love Stormlight and Elantris and even Warbreaker. But I love Era 2 Mistborn. I love the characters. I love the interactions, the mystery, the "rise of technology combined with magic" and how that's affecting the growth of civilization. I love love love the Easter eggs, the misconceptions people have about the heroes of the past. One of my favorite tidbits is how "Eastern Street Slang" became "High Imperial", and is used in all official documents. Because OF COURSE Spook would do that. I just love all of it. Wax is my favorite protagonist, Wayne is my favorite side character, and by the end of Bands of Mourning, I even grow to appreciate and, dare I say it, like Steris. It's great, and is what makes me excited for future Mistborn books. I love the new interplay of Twinborn as being the new "Mistborn". I love the concept of Ferrings alongside Mistings. I just love all of it. It was a fantastic direction to take, and I love the execution. But I prefer my stories to be about the characters, not about the explosions. Yeah, I went to see the new James Bond, and yeah, there was something nice about going to see a movie that was mostly about what's going to be blown up, but that's still cheap thrills. I prefer to have my characters have some depth to them. But that's just me.

I've always assumed that the "Unite Them" that Dalinar keeps hearing from Honor was referring to the splintered pieces of the Shards, not the Alethi princes, or even the nations of the world. Honor is telling him to Unite the Shard pieces to reform Honor. Which, I think, is something Dalinar is uniquely able to do, being bonded to the remnant of Honor (the Stormfather), and having the power of Spiritual Connection. I think he's going to ascend to take Honor's Place, but will be called Unity rather than Honor. I don't see Kaladin becoming Honor. Yes, he loves storms, he rides the winds, he HAS honor, and he bonded an Honor Spren, but Dalinar has literally bonded with Honor's Shadow, and is doing things no one thought possible. Even Dalinar's third Ideal was unique. The Stormfather was surprised when he spoke it and it WORKED as an Ideal.

Then I'm part of the Very Few. Isn't there a Word of Brandon saying Shallan, in Oathbringer, was at a higher oath than Kaladin? Kaladin was on 3 in Oathbringer, making Shallan on 4. Then she'd be on 5 at the end of RoW. It seems pretty clear to me. She spoke words (I am terrified), and then soulcast. Then she spoke more words (I killed my father), and started lightweaving. Then more words (I killed my mother) and started lightweaving and soulcasting together (making bodies that could feel real during the fight at the end of Oathbringer). Who knows what she'll be able to do, now. She didn't summon Pattern as a Shardblade until she'd spoken 2 words (third ideal, same as Kaladin), but she gave clues in Way of Kings that she already had one. When she summoned her shardblade on screen, though, it was Pattern, because it was glowing and alive, not a dead blade like the others. Which means the shardblade she was alluding to in Way of Kings would have been a dead blade (Testament). She broke her bond with Testament. Any power she'd have had would have gone out the window, same as when Kaladin broke his oaths to Syl. I suppose she could speak truths to Testament and repair the bond, BUT I'm thinking once you speak the 5th Oath, there aren't any oaths left, and that's possibly what happened. Perhaps she got to the 5th oath with Testament, then broke the bond, thus killing her, and there's no where left to go. Either way, Shallan has most certainly said four truths to Pattern, gaining power each time.

I've always thought one of the Ideals would be "I will allow those who can to protect themselves." That's related to "I accept that there are those I cannot protect." It would be about focusing on who need protection. Dalinar in Oathbringer? Didn't need protection, but Kaladin hyperfocused on him, potentially to the detriment of others. The fourth ideal fixes SOME of that, but only just. Accepting that he can't protect Dalinar isn't QUITE the same as accepting that Dalinar doesn't need his protection. It's a clarification, the same way "I will protect even those I hate" is a clerification of "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." Just my thoughts.

My main issue with Jasnah is that I study philosophy and religion, and I can't argue with her, because she's a book character. In WoK, when T and Shallan were discussing religion with her? I HATE that scene. Because I've studied this. My other problem with her is that she believes she is so much smarter than everyone else, but I see glaring holes in her philosophies. We only got to see her discuss 'religion' or philosophy with T on a bad day, and with Shallan, who is devout but still just a student. And she has a small condescending conversation with an Ardent who is obviously not her equal. So we get to see her show off her supposed intellect in front of people who can't actually match her. We don't get to see if her arguments would hold water against someone who knew what they were talking about. We're just told they do. And by inference, we're shown that she's 'so much greater than everyone else'. Every time someone mentions her, it's to talk about how perfect she is. "She never had the sense to be wrong an appropriate amount of the time." "In order to practice apologizing, you would have to sometimes be wrong." These statements irk me. They aren't "Showing us" that Jasnah is always right. They're "Telling us" that she's always right. This is the author telling the reader how they need to view Jasnah. She's beautiful, poised, elegant, brilliant, and all these things so much more than anyone else. We will make sure everyone who's ever met her will comment on how wonderful, brilliant, poised, elegant and beautiful she is. Oh, and she's also counterculture, but is such a powerful woman, because she can project power so easily, that nobody, not the church nor the other nobility, can touch her, because she's Jasnah. Also, all of her "Counterculture" is only in that her philosophies fit comfortably in 21st century rhetoric, but would be considered counter culture in a medieval world. So she's actually the most Progressive person on the planet. Oh. Wait. We made her too perfect. Oh I know. We'll make her acerbic. Yes. She's so perfect she has a hard time relating with people, because everyone is a dullard compared to her, and so her main flaw will be that she is condescending to people. She's such a brilliant, perfect person that anyone who hates her is actually just wrong, and that's why they hate her. Everyone who realizes she's right loves her, and those who love her but don't believe she's right will respect her for her brilliance, beauty, elegance and poise. This is what is meant by a Mary Sue. A Character who's only flaw is that people don't like her for how perfect she is. They can fly the Enterprise better than Chekov, treat medical conditions better than McCoy, understand complex science and logic better than Spock and could lead the Enterprise better than Kirk, but doesn't because they have too much class. (Men can be Mary Sue's, too. It's called Gary Stu, I believe). Despite all this, I don't DISLIKE Jasnah. She serves an important role in the plot. But my favorite scenes are when she's brought down somehow. When Shallan confronts her about her fake soulcaster. When Kaladin verbally spars with her. When she arrives at Uruthiru and realizes the focal point of her entire life passed her by without her help (finding Uruthiru and stopping the Parshmen from becoming Voidbringers.) But even in those things, she was right and everyone who didn't believe her was stupid. About everything. Everything. I realize that Dalinar is ALSO right about many things, but the difference is that people don't believe Dalinar about the return of the Voidbringers because of his past. He was a warmonger, someone who destroyed everything he touched and reveled in it, and even he thought he was going insane. The monarchs of the various countries didn't believe him because they didn't trust him because of his past mistakes. Jasnah is not liked by people in the book because...she is too perfect and is right about everything and they don't like that. Literally, that's it. She's a heretic, but she happens to be right about this heresy, so all who disagree are fools. Others don't like her because she's got a soulcaster...except she doesn't, she is just so awesome she can soulcast on her own. She has no flaws, but people hate her.

I don't think it's hard for invested PEOPLE to get off world. Just look at Hoid. And he's seen doing Allomancy and Awakening on Roshar. There should be no problem taking a metalmind and walking through the Cognitive Realm with it. It's like carrying the investiture, specifically keyed to an individual, in a suitcase. The problem with Stormlight is that it runs out. You can put it in a gemstone and carry it, but that's horribly inefficient, and it only renews in one place: Roshar. Sure, you could get yourself a Perfect Gemstone and then you could carry it forever...until you used it for something. Then you'd need to go back to Roshar to refill. If you could somehow refill Stormlight anywhere, then you could do all kinds of crazy things. I think the reason they're trying to get Kel offworld is because he's stuck on Scadrial, because of his Connection to Preservation. He's way too invested with Preservation's power because of his time in the pool. He just can't go that far away from Preservation's Center of power. Now, if they could figure out how to renew Stormlight elsewhere, then they'd probably need to be able to create a Connection to its source that can be transported anywhere. If they could do that, then they could do the same for Scadrial, creating a kind of portable Connection device that would, potentially, allow Kel to go wherever he wanted.

So, I didn't read the entire thread, but I read the first post, and there's a couple points I think were missed. Forgive me if they've been brought up already. 1. Testament wasn't "stuck in the safe". In WoR, at the end, Shallan even says how the Shardblade would have puffed into mist the moment he closed the door. She would have just summoned Testament back to her. She sees the light because she's, for lack of a better term, insane. She's pretending the Shard took her mother's soul because it's easier to deal with than saying "I killed my mother." She was a child, and is dissociating herself from her actions. 2. Shallan's sworn her 5th ideal. Her first "Truth" wasn't "I killed my father", it was "I am terrified." When the Spren came to her, asking "What are you?", she said "What am I? I'm terrified!" And then she soulcast for the first time, turning the goblet to blood. That was her first truth. Her SECOND was "I killed my father", which would make that her third ideal. Fourth was "I killed my mother". The final one is "I killed my spren" or whatever the actual wording was, I've only read RoW once. Shallan is at her fifth ideal.

Vin wasn't drawing on Preservation until they took the earring out. She was holding her own before that. The Mist wouldn't touch her with it in. Speculation, you don't know the exact strength dimensions of Shardplate vs a Koloss. Older Koloss are over 12 feet tall, and made of pure muscle. Them is strong. Again, speculation. And with a large enough weapon, you only need one hit. That's what Thunderclasts were for. Irrelevant. It only takes a moment to kill someone. 30 seconds is a long time in a fight. As I said, if there's a sliver of a chance the Mistborn could end it during that time, they will. If there happens to be absolutely no chance in a billion that they could ever win, then sure, Atium won't help. But if the possibility exists, Atium will find it. More speculation. Why wouldn't it break their head too? Vin headbutted someone and HIS HEAD EXPLODED. That means she went through his skull, with her skull, and she didn't even get dizzy. The skull is the hardest bone in the body, and she moved through it like it was made of air. Even a hit from a Chasm Fiend wouldn't do that without a rock on the other side of the head to smash it against. Heck, even a punch from LIVING plate hasn't shown to have that much force. There's no indication that a duralamin powered punch wouldn't go straight through the plate and knock their head clean off. Touche. But still, shows that skill is often the deciding factor over power. Your face makes it hard to read.

I love this argument. I only read the first few pages. Seriously, 34? That said, it is always surprising to me when people say that Radiants were made for open warfare and Mistborn never have to fight powerful enemies. Does no one EVER remember Vin taking out an army of Kolos by herself? Literal giants? Picking up gigantic swords twice as large as she was and slicing them into pieces? Or how about how Vin held her own against 12 FULLBORN. Seriously, the Inquisitors in the third Mistborn book are essentially all at the same level as TLR. Maybe they haven't built up enough compounding over the years, but they all have the potential. And Vin held them off. Pit Vin against ANY Radiant, I don't care what level, and she'll give them a run for their money, period. And Elend was STRONG than Vin. No where near as talented, sure, but stronger. If you'd made Kelsior a Mistborn using a Bead, he'd have plowed through those Inquisitors without a second's hesitation, especially once you give him all 16 metals. Give a Mistborn a Kolos blade and send them after a radiant. And here's the thing about Atium being an "I WIn" button. IF there's a way to win, Atium will show it to you. So really, the only way to know if a Mistborn could ever take a Radiant of any Oath level would be to give them some Atium and have them fight. If the mistborn loses, then there is literally no timeline in which they would have won. But if there's ONE timeline in which the Mistborn could win, no matter how implausible, the Atium will show it to them, and they'll win. Give them a Kolos Blade and some Atium, and the Radiant's head is coming off. And then there's a Duralamin-Pewter Punch. Vin made a man's head explode using one. Make a Radiant's head explode, and maybe he gets back up? But while his head is regrowing, you just keep stomping on it until it stops. Yeah, Radiants are amazingly powerful, and sure, the fight would probably go their way more times than not, depending on circumstances, but I think that Mistborn of sufficient talent and all sixteen metals would give them an amazing run for their money, especially since we don't know the limitations of Plate yet. Didn't Jasnah nearly die in the battle, despite wearing plate? Also, would a Nicroburst disrupt Living Plate or summoned Shardblades? Aren't they made of pure investiture, and doesn't Nicrosil make Investiture go away? Just a thought.

My assumption is that Sel magic works by mimicing the land itself. So Aon's look like the landscape around Elantris. Dakor (sp?) monks grow their bones in shapes to resemble their homeland, which infuses their bodies with power. My assumption was that Chayshan is a body movement, where they are sort of tracing out their landscape, similar to Aons but differently.

It's your stabilizing muscles. If you were to go work out for the first time ever, and lift a really heavy weight, one that is near as much as you can lift, you will be all kinds of shaky. That's because your stabilizing muscles are really, really weak. In fact, if you were to only work out on machines, which are geared to isolate muscle groups, and get really strong, when you go to lift free weights, you'll be shaky, because while your main muscles, like the biceps, are strong, your stabilizing muscles aren't used to the strain and will wobble. Balance is the same thing. Yeah, your inner ear has a lot to do with that, but your muscles have more. Your inner ear just tells you which way is up. Your stabilizing muscles have to be taught just right to keep you still. Increasing your muscles to the point that Pewter does makes all muscles and bones and everything two to four times stronger than normal. Being twice as strong doesn't sound like much, but it really, really is. Last year, I was able to do a 250 lb squat, which is ok, but not great considering I'm a 6'2" male who weighed almost 400 lbs at the time. Twice as strong would be 500 lbs. That's power lifter levels. And if you were already a power lifter who could squat 500 lbs, you now can squat 1000. But it's not just your main muscles being strengthened. It's all of you. Your bones, your stabilizers, your ligaments, your joints, your cartilage, etc. And you heal so fast you don't get sore, so you are able to keep it up for much, much longer, with less fear of injury. If all your stabilizing muscles are suddenly at power lifter levels, your balance instantly improves almost as much. You'll still need to learn where your center of gravity is, and how to manipulate it, but that's the difference between Vin and Zane. Vin was naturally good with balance and became better. Zane was a BEAST when it came to balance. It's actually the reason I always pick Pewter when people ask "What kind of Misting/Twinborn would you be?" There's just too much granted by it.

And now I'm envisioning a post apocalyptic book where humans discovered how to unlock their regenerative capabilities and it turned us all into cancerous monsters.

Any President who is in office through a war basically does the same thing. Congress declares war, but the President is the Commander in Chief. It's actually why they passed the Amendment to limit the President to two terms, because Roosevelt was elected 4 times in a row, because of war, if I'm not mistaken. They didn't want for people to get used to only one person being president, because of something like it being during war times, and wind up just reelecting him for life.

F Pewter is only strength, it wouldn't store the extra balance and speed and all that. There's also no reason, in any realm, why you couldn't store extra speed in a steel mind, or what have you. Feruchemy works by draining your attribute, then allowing you to tap it later. If you have more of that attribute to drain, then you can drain more of it. It's like being a muscular person would make one a more powerful Pewter Ferring, because you have more muscle to drain. If your muscles were then doubled by Allomantic pewter while you drained, there's no logical reason why you wouldn't also store that strength, but there's no indication you would also store healing and/or dexterity or speed. Steel stores speed, not Pewter.

Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. The stories we read, especially epic fantasy, are about the movers and shakers of the world. Even when its about a farm boy, it's because that farm boy is in the middle of the conflict. When someone achieves greatness, either by birth, achievement or accident, others follow. It's nature. And in a realm that has yet to go through an industrial era, where the common man becomes more powerful, you will have those who lead, and they will look to keep that in their own family, as a means to secure their legacy. America is slightly different, in that everything was supposed to be based on merit. You still have "Old Money", who tries to pretend like they're the rightful elite, but technically, anyone who is able to get the right amount of cash in the bank can become one. The "Ruling Class" being hereditary is a European idea, not an American one. In Era 2, there is no emperor, and the Nobility are less and less in charge. More and more common men are taking prominence, and they are moving more towards a true democratic society. I feel that, with Elend in book 2, he was ahead of his time. The reason why America worked after the War for Independence was because they were already ruling themselves. So much so that they were wondering why they had to pay taxes to a King that didn't do anything to help them. But in Luthadel, they were all used to having the Ruler dominate them. Very few were capable of dealing with their newfound freedom, and were thus easily manipulated. You can't simply force democracy on a people who is not ready for it. Democracy requires a sense of self responsibility, and more than a fair bit of competence. The Skaa didn't have that. Also, 2/3rds of the assembly were Skaa. It's just, half of them were the new Merchant Class, and so they identified more with the Nobility.

So...if Gold was only a "magical healing", then why do you get sick or not heal from wounds when you store "Health"? If one person, who can naturally heal faster, stores gold, would he store more than someone who has a naturally poor immune system? Personally, I would think so. You're storing "Health", not "Magical Health". Yes, it's taking you back to the Ideal Form of yourself, but it's still "Health". So if you could, say, increase your "Health", and then store the excess, that should make sense. A Pewterarm should be able to store Strength, Speed, Health, Wakefulness and potentially Breath (depending on wither that is a benefit, though Pewterdragging suggests that it is), because Pewter doesn't "Enhance your strength and speed". It "Enhances your physical body." It's every physical thing you have. Your bones are harder, your muscles more dense, your balance perfected, your resistance to wounds, and ability to survive them, heightened. One Allomantic Metal enhances all of that. Feruchemy splits each of those attributes. In fact, a Pewterarm who was also a Tineye (say, from a Medallion), is able to simulate what six, maybe seven, other metals can do in Feruchemy. There is no reason given why a Pewterarm, with enhanced speed, could not siphon that extra speed into a Steelmind. Same with Strength, or any of the other physical attributes. Even Warmth. Ham likes standing out in the cold without a shirt on, because he can. Pewter allows for that. Feruchemists can do it too, if they use Brass. When you store an attribute, you lose that attribute for a while. If Gold only stored "Magical Health", then it wouldn't make you get sick easier, or not be able to heal from real wounds as fast.

I always figured tapping either Investiture would allow one to have a stronger connection to Preservation, and thus increase one's Allomancy. Store up your investiture to weaken your Allomancy, then tap it later for a boost.

And thus the thread dissolves into battle between an Edgedancer and a Mistborn...

I must be different, because I felt his execution of Jastes was justified and satisfying. He became a King, in that moment. Judgement is an important part of government. Those in charge pass judgement on those who commit crimes in their kingdom. Jastes brought a rampaging army against his city, and then left them to rampage with no direction. There was never going to be any other outcome. As for the soldier who was executed, same thing. We do the same thing, and its called a Court Marshal. We may not execute the man, but in a war, you CANNOT have your soldiers feeling like they can freely strike their commanding officers. For ANY reason. That leads to the breakdown of the army, as inevitably someone will decide that life in prison is better than having to listen to the commander for one more day. A swift execution will make the men fall in line much faster. It's brutal, barbaric, even, but it's also War, and War is not a game. Also, a commander has to be able to send his men to their deaths. I a commander cannot do that, then he is not a commander. Wars are not won by making sure your soldiers stay safe. They're won by using your soldiers to make sure your citizens remain safe.

"I am the Law" could wind up problematic. Does it mean that he is above the other laws of men, and therefore whatever he does is right? Or does it mean that he must obey all laws set forth by men? Or does it mean his word is law and all men should bow before them? It is really rather vague, and I believe even in universe they're not sure. Because of that, I don't think even the last ideal will be "This is how you act in every situation ever." It would still be up to interpretation, to an extent. But it would help you to clarify and refine your ideal, to where you become what the ideal is meant to be.

I loved all those parts. Era 2 Mistborn is still my favorite of the whole Cosmere. Wax is my favorite character, his relationship with Steris is my favorite romance, and Wayne is my favorite side/not side character. I do love Era 1 and Stormlight, too. But I just...I don't know, I feel for Wax. I hate that those are the shortest books in the series.

Amen

I've wondered if the Excisors that the Southern Scadrians have is a device which includes an unkeyed, unsealed metalmind created by Kelsior which allows one who touches it to gain Gold Feruchemy, and then get spiked to take their normal power, while at the same time healing them of any damage, including their soul. This would allow their power to be taken out, via the spike, but they would not die. Either this would take their power from them, or they would gain their power gain when their soul was healed, allowing for a repeat. Either way, the end result would be a spike but no death and no permanent harm done to the donor. It would even be a way to punish a metal born: just take their power from them and give it to someone else. If that is what an Excisor is, then the resulting spikes could be how they make the medallions, or at least be part of the process of doing so. If the Excisor also allowed them to drain their identity while tapping Health, then the spike wouldn't even be keyed to their soul, really. They'd drain identity, tap gold, then get spiked, and once the spike is pulled out, they'd tap identity so the gold could fix their spirit web. But, I don't know how Nicrosil comes in to play. Nicrosil is what the medallions are made of (the other metals are just for convenience). Nicrosil stores Investiture, or the ability to use it, like Copper stores memories. So, the Excisor could simply be a complex medallion like device that allows you to store Identity while simultaneously granting the power to store Investiture. This lets any Ferring or Misting who comes into contact with the Excisor to store their identity and then store their ability to use their normal power in the Nicrosil of a Medallion. This makes more sense to me, though I feel like Hemalurgy is used in this process as well. The problem the Northerner's scientists have is that they don't have a full feruchemist and Mistborn to test their theories on all this. The Southerners had Kel, who was a Fullborn from all his spikes (likely scavenged from long dead Inquisitors), and he would have been able to make the Excisor, granting the ability for others to make the medallions. As for whether Spook was right, that's hard. On the one hand, I agree that when a Metalborn dies, it's a horrible waste, and if they can leave their power for someone else, then that's beneficial. Especially to criminals, as a form of capital punishment. But on the flip side, the damage done to one's soul...i've often wondered if we could see our own souls, and the damage our own addictions and vices do to us, if we'd continue to pursue them...

Your fourth ideal is fairly close to what I've always thought it to be. I always pictured it as something akin to "I will allow those who can to protect themselves." This is the flip side of the first oath, "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." The third ideal eliminates feelings from the equation. The fourth ideal, in this case, reduces the responsibility to those who need it, rather than everyone. Kaladin's main problem in Oathbringer is he feels he is responsible to protect EVERYONE. He feels his oath should include Dalinar, not just because it's his job, but because he took an oath. What he didn't realize is that Dalinar is NOT included in his first oath, because his first oath was to "Protect those who CANNOT protect themselves." Dalinar could. In fact, if he had not been alone and fought his battle himself, if he'd had Kaladin to jump in and save the day, he would not have "leveled up". This would fit with the gemstone's record as well. It must be very difficult for someone who is sworn to protect others to admit when someone doesn't need their help, and therefore should not be helped, but it is the natural answer to Kaladin's problem of wanting to protect everyone, to the point where he freezes when he doesn't know who to protect. So the second oath would be about the basic tenant (protect people). The third would be about discrimination (protect them even if you don't like them). This oath would be about prioritizing (don't protect those who don't need it). I like yours, though. It goes in a similar direction. I can't say I'm sold on that last oath, though. We only have one of the Fifth Oaths available right now, "I am the Law". And even in universe, there is some debate over what that means. The fifth oath we have, though, seems to be the penultimate of the others, which are all related to the second. It is the ultimate clarification, the end of the ideal. "I am the Law." I feel the oath for the Windrunners would be similarly related to their job as protectors, maybe going as far as saying something like "I am the shield against aggression" or "I am the shield of peace" or something like that. One of the things I've wondered about Kaladin's plight, of knowing both sides and wanting to protect both sides, is that he may be RIGHT. Maybe he SHOULD be protecting both sides. Maybe he should be trying to stop the war, and protect whichever is defending against the other in any particular conflict. To protect against the aggressor, whichever side the aggressor, at that moment, happens to be. If the Parshmen attack, he fights for the humans defending against them. If, later, the humans come across a parshman camp and attack, they protect the parshmen. They try to keep everyone from attacking each other. It would make sense if Windrunner's jobs became to simply keep the peace, against everyone. They are the guards, while the Skybreakers are the investigators (and maybe jurors or judges). They protect whoever needs protecting against whoever would attack them.