[OB] Oathbringer chapters 16-18

[+eveorjoy]

3 minutes ago, maxal said:

Nah my theory for reviving the Blade is he has to lose it first, so it remains consistent with it  I agree it is only part 1, but this did not seem like an arc which needed to span over such a long period. I mean, after a while, Adolin acting weird, nobody noticing, nothing happening, already it is getting old. I can't imagine it will last until part 4.

Wild speculation: Dalinar argues he cannot be accused of having stolen the Plate because it never belonged to him. He asks what the Iriali queen is to do with it and she answers: "Give to someone deserving and Riran as the Plate belongs to Rira". To this Dalinar answers: "This is just perfect, my son owns it and he is half-Riran, so there.". 

Then Adolin is requested to go to Rira  to learn how to be Riran 

I think the arc was originally meant to be forgotten until part 4 or 5. But too many forgot that Sadeas was killed by Adolin and so an Adolin POV was tossed in to remind the reader. The only other one that was tossed in resolved another misconception that Renarin wasn't a real Truthwatcher. So I agree the arc is not suppose to span several parts because it was not originally in part one or so I guess. 

Part One of the SA books as always been the weakest part. Brandon is setting up the rest of the book. I'm actually surprised how good this part one has been so far. 

Just remember, it is a big book and Brandon promised something interesting to happen to Adolin in this book. I just don't think that interest stuff will be in part one. Sorry. 

[Herald]

16 minutes ago, Dahak said:

Cultivation's Shardpool In the Horneaters Mountains that Hoid uses to worldhop? The never exhaustible well in Urithiru, the place closet to Honor? The Origin?

We have a WoB saying that Hoid perpendicularity moves.

Quote

ARGENT
There has to be one there because Jasnah has to leave somehow, right?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Yes, but Honor’s Perpendicularity moves.

QUESTION
Woah...so...Highstorm?

BRANDON SANDERSON

[hems and haws]

 

Source: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='Honor's Perpendicularity'

Edited October 3, 2017 by Herald

[Todesengel]

29 minutes ago, Ansalem said:

Undoubtedly. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain all Shards have a Shardpool on a world they're Invested in. It's speculated that the Horneater oceans might be Shardpools. Hoid steps out of one, presumably that's how he got to Roshar in the first place.

Speaking of Shardpools, Urithiru is said to have been built at the place closest to Honor. I'm suddenly wondering if that means Urithiru was built on top of Honor's Shardpool?

 

19 minutes ago, Dahak said:

Cultivation's Shardpool In the Horneaters Mountains that Hoid uses to worldhop? The never exhaustible well in Urithiru, the place closet to Honor? The Origin?

I was just about to mention this! When it was mentioned that those wells never run out, I immediately thought of Cultivation's Shardpool in the Horneater Mountains. I bet Honor's Shardpool is underneath Urithiru. I wonder where Odium's Shardpool is... Origin? Somewhere else? I'm looking at the map right now, but nothing is really standing out...

Edit:

Just noticed @Herald's WoB quote about Honor's perpendicularity moving... Dang. Well, pretty sure that ruins that theory.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Todesengel

[Seloun]

Last chapter certainly seems to suggest Shallan might become alcoholic...especially if she ends up getting into it even faster than usual due to Stormlight's ability to let her indulge.

 

[Sart]

3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

"The many wells in Urithiru, however, never ran out. The water level didn’t even drop, despite people constantly drawing from them."

My first thought was that the water system is somehow drawing water from the cognitive realm. Mountains/large solids are water in the cognitive realm, and maybe there is someway of siphoning that water? If not, maybe there is a mini-portal?

Hmm... the word of Brandon makes things difficult, as the Highstorm is Honor's shard pool. We also have the Horneater oceans as a probable Shard pool, since Hoid emerged from them. I remember a theory that there was a surprising lack of gates near Horneater territory. Maybe that's because the Horneater oceans are actually Odium's shardpool? And then Urithuru would be Cultivation's shardpool? It would make what Hoid did a lot more daring, so I'm not sure it's the right idea.

1 hour ago, DiamondMind said:

So u/Niveo on the reddit reaction thread points out the bouncer for the second bar in chapter 18 is probably Demoux because of the scar. That would be the first sighting of the the 17th shard since the interlude in WoK, wouldn't it?

Nice find! I didn't even get V=Z until I read it on here, so I'm terrible at that type of cameo. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Dahak]

5 minutes ago, Todesengel said:

 

I was just about to mention this! When it was mentioned that those wells never run out, I immediately thought of Cultivation's Shardpool in the Horneater Mountains. I bet Honor's Shardpool is underneath Urithiru. I wonder where Odium's Shardpool is... Origin? Somewhere else? I'm looking at the map right now, but nothing is really standing out...

Edit:

Just noticed @Herald's WoB quote about Honor's perpendicularity moving... Dang. Well, pretty sure that ruins that theory.

Perpendicularities are not neceserily tied to shardpools. The planet with the shades has them and no shardpool. Or if the perpendicularity is involved with the Oathgates it could well be said to move, being simultaneously in Uirithru and the Dawncity at the other end of the gate. While Brandon suggested they were involved with the Highstorms he didn't actually confirm it. But he did confirm they could be made artificially.

Quote

Perpendicularities can be created. You’d need a ton of Investiture. But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini Perpendicularity and slips herself into the Cognitive Realm.

That was teh same session as the one that suggested Honor's shardpool might have soemthing to do with the Highstorm.

 

But if you want another way to get to the right state apparently the Heralds didn't need stormlight to use surges via the Honorblades because they directly connected the wielder to Honor. Which suggests the Heraldblades can make the wielder a Splinter.

 

And we don't know when the Shin got the Honorblades. Or which order didn't disband. If it was the Stonewards that would be suggestive that they became the Stone Shamen. The Skybreakers after all could have been refounded recently, since we've no evidence of their operations as opposed to Nalan predating Gavrilar's death.

[Ansalem]

16 minutes ago, Todesengel said:

Edit:

Just noticed @Herald's WoB quote about Honor's perpendicularity moving... Dang. Well, pretty sure that ruins that theory.

Yeah, that's how it always goes. I come up with a theory, someone immediately posts a WoB that says "nope".

Kinda starting to hate WoB's. They take all my speculation fun away. I'm pretty sure he's targeting me specifically at this point. 

Well, there was that one time he said "yes" to my question, but you know.

[king of nowhere]

I just realized something. I missed a few pages of conversation, but nobody mentioned it that I saw.

The shin shamans have "ways" of recovering honorblades.

We don't know what those ways are. We only know that szeth is certain the blade will be recovered after his death.

It could be something as mundane as a good spy network, but szeth referred to it with a certainty that hinted at supernatural means.

So... the honorblade could disappear at any time, for all we know. It probably won't be just gone when dalinar checks back for it, as it would be terribly anticlimatic after all the effort of recovering it. but it is yet another element in the mixture. Soon team radiants will have to deal with the shin

[Dahak]

7 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I just realized something. I missed a few pages of conversation, but nobody mentioned it that I saw.

The shin shamans have "ways" of recovering honorblades.

We don't know what those ways are. We only know that szeth is certain the blade will be recovered after his death.

It could be something as mundane as a good spy network, but szeth referred to it with a certainty that hinted at supernatural means.

So... the honorblade could disappear at any time, for all we know. It probably won't be just gone when dalinar checks back for it, as it would be terribly anticlimatic after all the effort of recovering it. but it is yet another element in the mixture. Soon team radiants will have to deal with the shin

He thought they'd come and fetch it. And they do have two Honorblades that provide Transportation. Plus an Oathgate. That they could use said blades to unlock both ends of.

[Steeldancer]

Actually, I have no theory at the moment. Just a little nagging that perhaps there are ways to gain splinter power...

[Erunion]

@king of nowhere - and the Shin Stone Shamans will have to deal with the everstorm and the voidbringers having returned.... 

Dalinar: 

It’s seems that Dalinar’s Connection to Evi is being restored. This will cause problems, but may lead to growth! Interesting concerns - is this because of storm light? Because of, as some have said, the disconnect being ‘noticed’ as damage by his Invested self when her name was mentioned while he was surgebinding? Or is it that as he becomes more Invested with Honor, that investiture conflicts with Cultivation (a possibility not dismissed by Lift, as Edgedancers are much closer to Cultivation than they are to Honour). 

Kaladin: 

Oh softhearted bridgeboy and leader, I’m glad you’re the first of Our Heroes to meet the freed Parsh-People. Who are likely being led by a voidspren. 

Interesting things: voidspren leading groups of Parsh-People, but not possessing them - does that mean that Odium wasn’t able to possess them all at once, or that he wasn’t willing to do so and has some devious odious plan in the works? A little bit of both? 

Likely he’s planning on building up an army of Parsh-People and stoking the flames of their hatred, making for a much messier last desolation than anticipated! 

Further fun things to look forward to: can radiants kill voidspren? If so, can windrunners, or only the more Cognitive of orders? How about Honorspren? They hunt some Spren in the cognitive: can they slay them in the physical? Will we see an epic Syl vs. Voidspren smackdown? If so, sign me up please for the cheering squad!  

 

shallan:

So, it looks like her mental health forecast is bleak. I echo.... some smart person from the past 11 pages ...in saying that this is likely her big conflict to be resolved this book (as Kaladin had to deal with his own mental health last book). I hope we get a CMOA from her. ... but maybe she’ll go dark and won’t come back (for a while). 

Looks like the copy-cat murders are supernatural. Interesting. Unmade? Mad Aimian? Herald? Something Else? We shall see. 

[ScavellTane]

Will Adolin give up his shardplate if Dalinar asks it of him?

Is Dalinars memory recovery tied to his Kingship or his marriage?

Were the Parshendi the enemy during the Last Desolation or all the desolations?

Edited October 4, 2017 by ScavellTane

[maxal]

1 hour ago, eveorjoy said:

I think the arc was originally meant to be forgotten until part 4 or 5. But too many forgot that Sadeas was killed by Adolin and so an Adolin POV was tossed in to remind the reader. The only other one that was tossed in resolved another misconception that Renarin wasn't a real Truthwatcher. So I agree the arc is not suppose to span several parts because it was not originally in part one or so I guess. 

Part One of the SA books as always been the weakest part. Brandon is setting up the rest of the book. I'm actually surprised how good this part one has been so far. 

Just remember, it is a big book and Brandon promised something interesting to happen to Adolin in this book. I just don't think that interest stuff will be in part one. Sorry. 

I am not sure about that... Brandon wouldn't have ended WoR with a cliffhanger only not to use it until the end of OB. I also doubt these two POV will be the only ones for Adolin until the end of Part 1. Well, I hope they are not the only ones. From my perspective, the story wouldn't have been plausible if the event is never broached, never talked about. I mean, it has to be featured somewhere. What bothers me currently is how nobody is making a deal out of it. Now, that Dalinar isn't making a deal out of it, it makes sense, but the other Highprinces? They are just pleased with Dalinar turning blasphemous and Sadeas, his main opponent, turning out dead? Am I odd to think the political game was completely eviscerated from the story? It shouldn't be... 

Part one is usually over by chapter 20 which is why I am getting less patient. At this point in time within the story, I expect the setup to be over and the narrative to kick in. I mean, yes part one is good, but the whole Sadeas murder is not kicking in. 

Also, I am expecting interesting stuff to happen to Adolin during the whole book, not just during the last 10 pages.

8 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

Will Adolin give up his shardplate if Dalinar asks it of him?

Is Dalinars memory recovery tied to his Kingship or his marriage?

Were the Parshendi the enemy during the Last Desolation or all the desolations?

Yes he will. He will agree he needs to give away his Plate to help further his father's plans. And no it will not create any turmoil into him because Adolin just takes in everything. It will not bother him one minute.

I hope not.

I think all of them... I am not sure what the deal is with this story arc.

[Frostlander]

27 minutes ago, maxal said:

Part one is usually over by chapter 20 which is why I am getting less patient. At this point in time within the story, I expect the setup to be over and the narrative to kick in. I mean, yes part one is good, but the whole Sadeas murder is not kicking in.

 

If it helps, last week on Tor.com, Alice (Wetlandernw) said that Part 1 was about 1/4 of the book's total length and that we were halfway through that. I calculated that at about 150 pages--again last week. At that point in WoR, Shallan had failed to soulcast a stick and just climbed into a slave wagon on the way to the Shattered Plains. We also had just gotten our first countdown for the Everstorm and learned that Amaram was on his way. We don't meet Eshonai until the Interlude after Part 1, and the Diagram shows up right before Part 5. So, a lot can still happen! Our main arcs still hadn't all been set in motion yet. 

ETA: It looks like Part 1 of OB is about 2x as long as Part 1 of WoR, so those events in WoR above were toward the end of the setup. Apparently, we have a lot more setup to come...

Edited October 4, 2017 by Frostlander

[maxal]

25 minutes ago, Frostlander said:

If it helps, last week on Tor.com, Alice (Wetlandernw) said that Part 1 was about 1/4 of the book's total length and that we were halfway through that. I calculated that at about 150 pages--again last week. At that point in WoR, Shallan had failed to soulcast a stick and just climbed into a slave wagon on the way to the Shattered Plains. We also had just gotten our first countdown for the Everstorm and learned that Amaram was on his way. We don't meet Eshonai until the Interlude after Part 1, and the Diagram shows up right before Part 5. So, a lot can still happen! Our main arcs still hadn't all been set in motion yet. 

ETA: It looks like Part 1 of OB is about 2x as long as Part 1 of WoR, so those events in WoR above were toward the end of the setup. Apparently, we have a lot more setup to come...

I know... It is the strain from reading only three chapters per week. It makes the story move more... slowly. Or it gives this impression. And I really want something to happen with respect to the murder case.

[StormingTexan]

Hmm so what we are all trying to figure out here is if the preview chapters are our boon or curse...

[Ansalem]

Just now, StormingTexan said:

Hmm so what we are all trying to figure out here is if the preview chapters are our boon or curse...

It's obviously both. I don't think there's anything that says the boon and curse can't be the same thing.

[StormingTexan]

I do agree it’s a little frustrating the murder seems like it’s taken a back seat especially considering how dramatic that moment was at the end of WoR. I think after all these years it’s just a little anticlimactic that no one seems to have a sense of eurgency about it.

Of course we are also seeing the story from the POV of a bunch of people that let’s be honest have little reason to care that Sadeas is dead. Dalinar seems to care the most and Sadeas tried to see him dead. They also have a few other things going on. Then you add the copycat murder that makes his death look more like a serial killer than a targeted attack by one of his foes (really wondering where Brandon is going with this btw). I do get the frustration though. As said above though we really just getting things going and Brandon has earned my bennifit of the doubt to blow me away with the resolution. One way or another I have confidence it’s not just going to go away. 

Edited October 4, 2017 by StormingTexan

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I know... It is the strain from reading only three chapters per week. It makes the story move more... slowly. Or it gives this impression. And I really want something to happen with respect to the murder case.

I'm pretty sure that the end of Shallan's chapter was a pretty major point in the murder case. 

[Ansalem]

I don't really see how the murder story has taken a back seat. It was almost the entire point of Shallan's chapter. It's just not going the way anyone expected. We may not be getting much from Adolin about the murders, but the arc is definitely moving forward. Adolin just hasn't had a lot of screen time at all, really. And Dalinar has bigger things on his mind right now, he assigned people to it now he's letting them handle it.

Shallan, however, seems pretty damnation focused on it.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Ansalem

[Necessary Eagle]

12 hours ago, the_archduke said:

Am I the only one who imagined Veil and Wayne at a bar, both pretending they were getting drunk while washing the drunkenness away every other glass.  World-hopping needs to make this happen.

Curses- I don't know how to post links on my phone, and since I'm in Israel for the next two weeks, my phone is all I have. But if you go on AO3, there's a story called "White Hats" that is, in fact, about Veil and Wayne meeting in a bar. It is my current favorite Cosmere fic ("I'm on a mission from God. No relation.")

[Necessary Eagle]

15 hours ago, dendrophobe said:

Or maybe Parshmen have to be healed first, and THEN they're susceptible to spren-bonding.

A lot of people have been saying something like this, but remember the ending of Edgedancer. Enough Parshmen transformed right away that Lift and Nale could see their eyes from a rooftop in the middle of the city. 

[FiveLate]

Ok I am late with this, but it was a long day...That said I haven't read any comments yet so this is just my thoughts.

Honorblade s work Oathgates confirmed..

Rial something going on there..spy or just a swarmy Brown noser?

Tidereaders?

More Live for the One ...Die for the One!

Shin Shamanism is totally exclusive or Vorinism.

Adonis shard plate came from the Shin?

Erie...wow...

"They may have taken your freedom, but they took our minds.."   wow 

Connection rebounded, Identity restored....oh the implications..

 

 

 

[Pattern]

Good morning everyone. I made it to page 7 of 9 yesterday evening before falling asleep in front of my laptop. Well, now I've finished reading all 11 pages and I think nearly everything that came to my mind reading the last three chapters has already been addressed. Some additions now:

Chapter 16:

Odium has been wounded before with scars that don't heal. He also has been refered to as The Broken One. What is his current state as a Shard? Damaged badly near to be spintered? We will see...

The Honorblades seem to be the thing holding up the Oathpact which is thought by the Heralds to be broken, but in fact is not. Does someone see a problem in Szeth travelling to Shinovar to take revenge on the Stone Shamans accomanied by Nightblood? Can Nightblood "eat" Honorblades?

Dalinar refuses to use the Thrill during his practice session and recognizes it as something Evil. Shortly after he remembers Evi. And no, I don't think Evi is evil.

Rial. He fiddles with a sphere in a way that is annoying to others. I think we should know him, I just cannot place him, yet.

Chapter 17:

I expected Kaladin trying to bandage the parshgirl's feet. Well, he takes a slower approach in befriending the free Parshmen and I have a gut feeling that this will end in his fourth oath.

"I will protect even potential enemies, as long as they are innocent"

In the end, he could be able to convince the free Parshmen to abandon the voidspren to avoid becoming slaves to Odium. This would be the last thing they would want to become now, having finally been healed. That Kaladin can relate to the Parshmen is not surprising for me, he already found more honor in the Parshendi way of fighting than in the human armies. Either he will lead this group away from Odium or he is taken in by their revenge on lighteyes so that he (nearly) changes sides.

Chapter 18:

Brightness Radiant. Shallan. Veil. 
Pattern is concerned that something is wrong with Shallan's lies. Her reaction is going deeper. Where is Hoid when you need him? (Flashback chapter from WoR comes to my mind where he encourages and lightens up Shallan). I am not certain who I find more disturbing, though. Veil or Brightness Radiant?
Veil has her purpose, even if it tends to go a bit dark. Brightness Radiant is just another way to suppress her truths from affecting her, she uses Brightness Radiant even with Adolin (who Pattern may not marry, totally unfair!). Between those two the real Shallan might be eroded away over time, over a short period given the current pace she sets.

To all those of you who fear Shallan is not far from the breaking point: I think she is years beyond that. She broke when her mother tried to kill her. All the rest of her story is coping with that truth, living on with it, including Investiture entering the cracks to keep her together. Now with Veil and Brightness Radiant those cracks seem to widen, though.

Will losing herself kill Pattern?

Edited October 4, 2017 by Pattern
Typos

[Guest]

What really worries me about the Shallan situation:

Quote

After a short time walking, Shallan (not Veil!) found she needed to say something more. “Pattern. Do you remember what you said to me the other night, the first time… we became Radiant?”

“About dying?” Pattern asked. “It may be the only way, Shallan. Mmm… You must speak truths to progress, but you will hate me for making it happen. So I can die, and once done you can—”

“No. No, please don’t leave me.”

“But you hate me.”

“I hate myself too,” she whispered. “Just… please. Don’t go. Don’t die.” Pattern seemed pleased by this, as his humming increased—though his sounds of pleasure and his sounds of agitation could be similar.

Shallan admitted to "hating herself" and Pattern let out a pleased hum - or an agitated hum.

Could Shallan's admission be part of the reason why she is going deeper into her lies? She doesn't want to be herself?

Edited October 4, 2017 by SLNC