Frostlander

Boring, non-fun answer: "Wit" was the least confusing thing she could call that character in a dramatic scene being read by the "average fan."

This is a fantastic framework! I'll be using it for a long time, I think. Two points to add: One is that I think that we can puzzle out some of the backstories of the characters based on what we already know about them. I'm guessing that some issues from their childhoods will feed into issues that continue to develop. Using perhaps the easiest example, Lift seems to have problems with attachment or abandonment that stem from her mother's death and will likely not disappear anytime soon. Her visit to the Nightwatcher is also tied to these issues. Down the road, we might see a longer timeline for her that deals with her mother's death, the Nightwatcher visit, and even related events that haven't happened yet. (I might also put Lift in the "weirdly wise orphan-urchin" archetype slot for now.) Also, I'm wondering if there's another layer of complexity at work here. There's a non-magical "wow factor" or conflict attached to their vocation and/or archetype. Kaladin is a soldier made more complex by the fact that he could also be a surgeon. Jasnah is an atheist scholar in a very theistic society. Dalinar is a brutal warlord who becomes a reluctant king intent on unification through diplomacy. That character type doesn't traditionally pop up in fiction as a reluctant king. I'm struggling with Shallan--an artist who...?--which may be part of the reason why I sometimes have a hard time pinning her down as a character. Anyway, great post!!

I imagine they'll at least be players until the prologues surrounding Gavilar's death end with book 5. Whether that will wrap up their story or make them even more important in future books is anyone's guess.

I'm really hoping it's Kaladin's mother, Hesina. She's intelligent, religious, apparently from a higher social class, the book was not well received when published, and it would be a fun crackpot theory. Of course, she'd have to be referring to one of Jasnah's earliest works, since she's about 4 or 5 years older than Jasnah.

I actually do think that he's hatred because that's the only thing that really fits, given the quotes you brought in and the logic and theology aspects. It was the assertion in OB that he was "Passion" or "emotion incarnate" that didn't make sense, and I was trying to figure out why Brandon would make Odium's "debut" so much about passion. Once I started thinking about the idea of Odium/Rayse as a shard of hatred who sees itself/himself as a hero in his own story (and as more than hatred), this narrative choice made more sense. But yes, I agree.

Honestly, I was pretty bummed out by Odium in this book, even after 2 reads. (Stick with me here--this doesn't stay negative!) He seems illogical within the larger workings of the Cosmere. "Passion," which is what he identifies with, is not really an aspect of god(s). It's more a failing humans have that needs godly guidance to control. Why would Adonalsium shatter into a non-godly shard? It seemed like it had to either be a huge misstep in the series that could throw off the larger logic of the Cosmere or it was misdirection that resulted in a shard who claimed a name that sounds kinda silly. Then I started thinking about one of Brandon's writing-related quotes/rules that I've seen pop up repeatedly: "Everyone is the hero in their own story." In OB, he had to start showing us a lot more of Rayse/Odium as the hero in his own story. (This must be a difficult thing to do.) Given this quote/rule, I'm trying to understand the "new Odium," starting with: What do we know outside of Odium's personal heroic narrative?: Odium wants to go after the other shards and destroy them. He's trapped in the Roshar system and unable to continue destroying shards (as much). He is called Odium by multiple characters from multiple worlds with multiple affiliations in the Cosmere He is associated with hate and being hated. There are others, but we get the idea. These make sense to us as the actions of a "Big Bad," but how does the "Big Bad" see himself and others' reactions to him? What is Rayse/Odium's personal heroic narrative? It's hard to separate out what's true and what's a lie based on what we learned in OB. He sees himself (or claims to see himself) as much more than hate. And maybe it's hard to see yourself as a hero if you see yourself as hate and hated. He acknowledges that others see him as "Odium." He claims to have a different, more accurate name or intent: "Passion." He--and/or his followers--exploit and possibly require extreme emotion for some reason. He wants to get rid of Honor's remnants and Cultivation, continuing his pattern of destroying shards. He claims to want to remake Roshar, but his conversation with Dalinar (and his history) suggests he wants to leave. I speculate that Odium sees himself on some sort of mission that (in his mind) makes him the hero of his own story. It likely involves destroying shards (and those who get in his way) for reasons that seem worthy to him but not to most of the characters in the Cosmere. The exploitation or need for extreme emotion may be somehow related to the godly aspect of controlling or punishing humans for the acting on extreme emotion. Other thoughts on how we can look at OB from a different perspective if we think of it as our first real taste of Odium's heroic self-narrative?

Apologies for the vague title. I hope it's obvious enough for people who've read the book! I wanted to start a thread to specifically talk about whether or not Odium is actually “Passion.” I think it deserves its own topic, but if it’s better folded into an existing topic, that’s fine, too. I know there’s been some discussion about whether the emotions that Odium claimed qualify as negative or positive emotions, and I think there’s more to be said there. I also think that we need to consider whether “emotion incarnate” or “passion” even qualifies as a potential shard of Adonalsium. The reason I don’t buy Odium as a “Passion” shard is because passion is not really a godly characteristic in theology—and I don’t just mean Judeo-Christian religions. Why would there be a shard of Adonalsium dedicated to globally representing strong feelings such as lust, joy, hatred, anger, exultation, glory, hunger, longing, loss, etc.? As best we know, the shards represent godlike actions or characteristics (Ruin and Cultivation or Autonomy and Devotion, for example). Passion, extreme or unrestrained emotion, is something of humans. Something like Odium, whether we want to think of it as hatred, wrath, fury, etc., might better be thought of as a godly response to badly behaving humans. The idea that there’s a single shard of Adonalsium that represents human emotion just doesn’t make sense. It seems like Vessels become less emotional (or passionate) as intent takes over. Stormfather even describes this as happening to Honor: I could see if Odium needs to exploit or harvest extreme human emotion for some other purpose. I wouldn’t be surprised if a combination of the Unmade (the Thrill etc.) and cultural elements, such as the Thaylen Passions, have been encouraging heightened human emotion for Odium’s benefit. Do we have any other evidence that Odium is more accurately described as the shard of Passion? Something other than Odium’s word or Dalinar’s interpretation of an Odium-provided vision? Otherwise, it just seems like a con.

When Kaladin says: I remember thinking that it wouldn't hurt Kaladin to listen to his own advice. "I will accept that I cannot protect all who need protecting."? This is similar to many of the above, but the fact that he said it to Elhokar and it made me want to shake some sense into him, suggests that there's something there.

Considering how mega-CR and cognitive related the Back 5 are looking to be, having Eshonai's flashback book and (possibly the Willshaper order) act as a transition makes sense. ETA: Assuming this stuff comes toward the end of Book 4 or if Book 5 is "her" book...

I just noticed this in the "No Mating Scene" when Adolin says that Shallan's ego doesn't count as a "separate individual" in the room. Shallan says: This is about her insecurity at first glance, but it could also be foreshadowing/trolling about her lack of a core persona from a psychoanalytical standpoint... (Funny how I've started thinking of foreshadowing and trolling as the same things so often.)

As much fun as it was sticking Lopen and other sundry objects to the wall, I agree that Adhesion needs some more power. Maybe Brandon was holding off on it until we got to the Bondsmith book so he wouldn't give too much away about the surge. We also haven't seen much of an order using both surges much. Although we've seen a lot of Shallan's Illumination, she can barely Transform. We've really only seen surface level explorations for most of the other surgebinding characters. Can't wait to see someone with two full surges!

I'm still thinking it's Evi, maybe even more now. The passage about Experience suggests the One in Iriali/Riran religion and hints at possible heretical views if taken too far. The lack of confidence in her intellectual abilities reminds me of Navani and Ialai dismissing her and Adolin recalling that she admired Ialai's wit. And she and her brother appeared practically out of nowhere, shardplate thieves on the run. Did they kill people, possibly for some greater good? Did Evi kill Toh? And who knows, it's even possible that she was a tidereader (and that they are legit), have access to visions, and can see beyond...

I was curious to see if the term "race" shows up in SA, and after appearing a few times in WoK, it very abruptly disappears. One incident in WoK, the Recreance vision, uses the word: The only post-WoK use of the word is in Arcanum, to describe Rhyshadium. My guess is that with the greater exploration of slavery and discrimination coming up, Brandon decided to stop using the word altogether. Certain groups or nationalities are still associated with phenotypical characteristics, but it's likely he saw the word "race" as having too much baggage to be useful. All this aside, "monochrome" skin shades (as Eshonai put it) don't really provide a classification scheme for discrimination at all. Hair and eye color are important as physical characteristics used for creating cultural hierarchies. (Of course, being Aimian, Listener, or of Listener descent, like the Horneaters, is another story.) I am interested to see the terminology he decides is most useful going forward. As of WoR, it doesn't look like it will be species, either.

Agreed and chiming in with the OED: "make to" is an even more obscure form of "make for." Essentially, it should correspond to: "proceed or direct one's course towards; go in the direction of." So in an attempt to double-translate a choppy, compact passage from a section of Floorboard 17 that hilariously uses the word, "apricity," I would keep that four-sentence complex in mind. (They are with the Shin. We must find one. Can we make to use a Truthless? Can we craft a weapon?) "The Honorblades are with the Shin! We have to get ahold of an Honorblade. What about directing our efforts toward acquiring the services of an Honorblade-wielding Truthless? Can we mold the Truthless into a weapon (that will presumably cause worldwide political instability)?" Yeah, English is weird, but it can be really fun in its weirdness...

This quote about Zuln leads me to believe that generally, dullform can hear the rhythms: The passage makes a special distinction between Zuln's representation of dullform Parshendi and parshemen, "those without songs," indicating that dullform do have songs. From my reading of the scene with the malen dullform Parshendi that Eshonai encounters, I got the sense that his lack of rhythm was related to the despair that drove him to seek dullform. Shen/Rlain is only described as using rhythms when he's changed out of dullform, but this seems to be because the humans would have noticed a parshman who spoke too much like a Parshendi. In fact, when he's introduced as Rlain, he's specifically described as speaking like a Parshendi. That said, you may be onto something interesting. I don't think that non-dullform Listeners are able to shut off the rhythms. This could suggest that the reason they chose dullform was because it's "rhythm-optional," and that it was the only way to cut off contact with their gods. More evidence that the rhythms are connected to forms of power and that this will be an issue, both for the Listeners and for the parshpeople Kaladin is traveling with. ETA: Ninja'd!

On Nightblood, although I've read Warbreaker, I can totally imagine how a reader unfamiliar with Nightblood would be able to slowly discover more as Szeth learns more. Szeth is the non-Warbreaker reader. It's not dissimilar to how we're all learning bits and pieces about Roshar's magic. How much do we really know about voidbinding at this point except that it's weird and dangerous? Plus, non-Warbreaker readers might learn a bit more from Nale, and I have to assume that at some point, a certain ardent will fill in some more gaps. It might actually be fun to unravel Nightblood's mystery as an SA-only reader--speaking as someone who was lukewarm on Warbreaker and finds Nightblood more interesting in SA.

Had a thought based on the conversation with the "voidspren" that added more questions about whether it's actually a voidspren. In the excerpt, she says: This reminded me of one of Dalinar's visions when he's talking to Nohadon looking down on the ruins of the desolation Obviously, discrimination and discernment are different, but if someone tends to like Honorspren and Windrunners, they might describe them as discerning. If the spren or order thinks of Honorspren as haughty and picky, they might choose discrimination. If the other spren is aware of Syl, it's possible that she's messing with Kaladin. I'm not sure what she means by being a messenger, though it's possible that her sprentype is sending scouts or something. I honestly don't know if I believe this, but there's so many different ways this can play out, it seemed worth throwing in the mix.

I think it's safe to say you would not be wasting your time if you look into this further...

The forms that we become familiar with in WoR show up in the epigraphs as part of the Song of Listing. Some of them have vague instructions on how to find them, and the two forms that Venli was supposed to be working on, scholarform and mediationform, have mild warnings attached to them. More dangerous forms show up in the Song of Winds and the Song of Secrets. But there are huge gaps in their oral record, a point that Venli makes when she is arguing for the adoption of stormform in the Narak Interlude: So, she's arguing that their histories are too unreliable to serve as warnings, but then on the next page, we learn how nimbleform was discovered with the help of a script she invented. (Venli also has the advantage of having control over the written version of the songs, so who knows what she's done there.) So, Venli will argue that the songs are reliable when they serve her purpose and dismiss them when they don't. We know that the Listeners discovered nimbleform after workform and warform (and after Gavilar's assassination), but we don't know where workform and warform came from. We know that both predated Gavilar's death, because Eshonai says that the Five had been all dullform, then all workform, and then they decided to have one of each form after Nimbleform was discovered about 2 years into the war. Although warform doesn't appear to have been part of the Five until after the war started, Eshonai notes its existence in the Oathbringer prologue: The biggest questions might be: How did they make the mysterious jump from mateform and dullform to workform and warform? Eshonai seems to find the lack of information on this troubling. And did the sphere Gavilar gave Eshonai end up helping Venli discover nimbleform? If Venli was working with the gods in some way, did they also help her discover stormform?

If you've read all of these (except Elantris), it seems like you could finish Mistborn 1 and maybe set Scadrial (Mistborn stuff) aside until after Oathbringer. Make Edgedancer a priority before Oathbringer. I don't really know how Audible works, but there's a standalone version of Edgedancer coming out on Oct 17 if you aren't ready for Arcanum. Then, depending on how long it takes to get through these (and assuming you want to start Oathbringer right away), you might be able to listen to the rest of Arcanum and, for now, skip the stuff on Scadrial and skip Hope of Elantris (which maybe isn't his best anyway). The other short stories in Arcanum should be safe, though. If you want to prioritize Elantris over Arcanum, that works, but make sure you read Edgedancer before Oathbringer. Don't worry about Rithmatist and the Reckoners (Steelheart, etc.) until later. They're really fun, but they're not Cosmere. Hope that helps! Happy reading!

I've been imagining Ambition as a jealousy-type shard. The origin of the word relates to Romans looking for votes and political power, but can also mean seeking glorification or superiority. If Ambition represents a jealous, competitive divine attribute, it may be the shard most likely to try to "knock off" other shards in favor of being a supreme shard. Odium might find this particularly threatening.

@Yata Can you explain a bit more why you don't think that Team Odium had some influence in the Parshendi ancestors' decision to revert to the most basic forms? Setting aside the chapter title, which is interesting in its own right, Odium would need a group of non-parshmen to summon the Everstorm. The parshmen weren't going to do it, and enslaved parshmen are more useful to Odium if humans don't even think about them and just continue integrating them into their societies. So much of this series seems to be about a long game that Odium is playing that depends on the players forgetting or not realizing that they're playing a game and that he's the enemy. If human knowledge has been erased or tampered with to further Odium's plans, why wouldn't this apply to Listeners? As Honor says in Way of Kings: This seems to apply to humans, but in many ways, it could just as equally apply to the Listeners. Based on their histories, they believe they have escaped their gods, although at least some of them still remember that they need to be vigilant. Eventually, though, some Listener--possibly with some encouragement from Team Odium--would start looking into more dangerous forms. This appears to have been Venli. If the Parshendi escape was not influenced by Odium & Company, why would a group of escaping Listeners include information in their own histories about how to find more dangerous forms? Eshonai thinks it's odd that the songs could even include such information/instructions without the help of their gods. This is why I think Odium made sure he had one last legion remaining to unwittingly help carry out his plans. The idea that the ancestors of the Parshendi were just as bamboozled as humans seems more likely than the alternative at this point.

Now that we’ve met post-Everstorm parshmen, it may be time to rethink our assumptions about the Listeners. I apologize if this has been discussed to death in a different way, but I wasn’t able to find anything challenging the idea that the term “Last Legion” was anything but positive. It has seemed natural to assume that the Listeners (Parshendi is a nationality) are the correct or proper type of Parsh-Rosharan. They are represented by relatable, well-meaning characters and have a fascinating oral tradition that tells of a daring escape from Odium’s influence. We contrasted them with the enslaved parshmen whom they pitied for not having forms or hearing rhythms. Now we have a second group traveling with Kaladin who, despite not having multiple forms or attuning to the rhythms, are just as relatable and intelligent as the Listeners. Is one group more “natural” or “better” than the other? What got me thinking about this is the title of the interlude that introduces us to Venli’s research and stormspren, “Last Legion.” It’s also the chapter where Eshonai’s mother describes the Listeners as the “Last Legion,” and we hear the story of how they escaped: I think this is problematic in a series about the loss of knowledge and how it seems to have led humans to forget critical pieces of their history and set Odium’s plans in motion. Why not the Listeners, too? Eshonai even thinks: It’s possible that others have noticed that this history is a bit troubling, but now, especially after seeing the group traveling with Kaladin, there are red flags all over the place. The Listeners believe that they are a self-sacrificing Last Legion, but given that this is also the interlude where we see the Listeners move toward bonding with stormspren, we should consider the possibility that the Listeners are actually Odium’s last legion (lower case). Much like humans have been manipulated over millennia, is it possible that Odium ensured that there was one last legion remaining when the future parshmen had their spiritwebs damaged? It would actually be easier for him to manipulate the Listeners, to trick them into believing that they had escaped, leaving just enough mysterious information for them to figure out how to discover forms that brought them progressively closer to summoning the Everstorm. I’ve also grown increasingly suspicious of the rhythms, or at least the potential to “piggyback” on the signal and transmit information that helps Odium: I’m wondering if the group with Kaladin would need to attune to the rhythms they are aware of—but don’t understand—before they could transform, even in the coming highstorm. At any rate, I don’t think that we can be sure what these Parsh-Rosharans should look like, if they should have multiple forms, or what their relationship to the rhythms should be. Would the healed parshmen eventually die without a spren bond? Are they fine the way they are? I do think we should consider the possibility that the Parshendi (and any other Listeners) were Odium’s unwitting last legion.

It's also possible that the people in the tavern who saw Shallan's impulsive carving of the GB symbol are a connection between the two. It could explain the timing of the meeting and the presence of both of them. I'm sure Mraize already has some idea of what's going on, but I could see the tavern sycophants as involved with Ialai.

I'm really intrigued by this theory, especially given the spren "booster-seat" tiny pedestals available in the Spanreed Room. There's also the question of how people are transported by the intriguingly-named "Oathgates." A very close connection to the cognitive realm seems likely. Another theory suggested that something is "wrong" with Urithiru, and given that the Oathgates were locked down at some point, it may be less about preventing transport of humans than access for something else. You mentioned a lack of dead ends, and although Shallan doesn't report dead ends, her resonance may be suggesting corridors that humans generally can't see: