[OB] Oathbringer chapters 16-18

[Ansalem]

1 minute ago, Sliverofnone said:

It wouldn't break her truths, but she spoke the first oath, 'life before death.' I was just speculating on the possibility of her committing murder as Veil. So there is a WoB that Adolin killing Sadeas would not be excluding him from the KR, but do we know what Pattern would be ok with?

Shallan murdered her father in cold blood after she already bonded Pattern. It's easy to argue she was justified but at the same time she was very calm and it was pre-meditated, not a crime of passion or defense. She had been planning it for a while, she was just looking for an excuse at that point. I don't think it's clear the first ideal is even a binding oath and it's certainly open to interpretation.

Maybe Pattern wouldn't be okay if Shallan just started murdering random people for no reason, but he definitely allows for just about any other kind as far as I can tell.

[Elena]

Just finished reading, and I CAN'T BELIEVE Adolin Kholin is being haunted by the Ghost of Murders Past. That poor child.

[Stark]

1 minute ago, Ansalem said:

Maybe Pattern wouldn't be okay if Shallan just started murdering random people for no reason,

Well, as longs as she's honest about.

"Pattern, I am a serial killer."

"This truth is accepted"

"I am using the trophies I collect to make my own special ink for portraits of my new persona's based off my victims.  I choose my victims for the traits they have I desire. Using them to craft my illusion makes it stronger."

"This truth is... deeply unsettling.  Terrifying and gross.  And.., storm it, accepted, but only because I have no choice.  Seriously, get some help, or go divide by zero with that nice swordsman who wields my cousin's corpse.  You're starting to scare me."

 

I don't feel that there is a moral code to Lightweavers, as long as they honor the truths they have admitted to their spren.

[IntentAwesome]

If Bondsmiths had the ability to strip a piece of the soul off an entire population of people for generations, it makes sense to me that some part of their power can also restore pieces of soul. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that some part of Dalinar's power is healing his memory. And I don't think it's a coincidence that we learned part of what happened to the parshmen right after Dalinar's memories are starting to come back.

Also, on Urithiru, a bit of a wild theory. But there is some legend that says Honor built the place himself right? What if the copycat murders are part of some kind of checks and balances system? If you commit a crime, kill someone, then the cost is the life of someone else. Some bizarre way of maintaining balance. And an interesting way to keep a bunch of people who have very powerful weapons in check. It might make them think twice about doing something to someone. Not quite sure how exactly that fits in with Honor, as there are no oaths involved. Still thinking on it... 

[Dahak]

24 minutes ago, Stark said:

I don't feel that there is a moral code to Lightweavers, as long as they honor the truths they have admitted to their spren.

They are still bound to the first Oath. Which I suspect is Ishar's doing.

[Aleksiel]

23 minutes ago, IntentAwesome said:

If Bondsmiths had the ability to strip a piece of the soul off an entire population of people for generations, it makes sense to me that some part of their power can also restore pieces of soul. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that some part of Dalinar's power is healing his memory. And I don't think it's a coincidence that we learned part of what happened to the parshmen right after Dalinar's memories are starting to come back.

Also, on Urithiru, a bit of a wild theory. But there is some legend that says Honor built the place himself right?

This is how I see it, too. 

However, Urithiru wasn't built by Honor, but close:

Quote

 

“Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.”

 

 

[Dreamstorm]

48 minutes ago, Stark said:

 

Pretty sure the first on screen Truth from her that we see is "I am a murderer."  So killing dudes would confirm that her oath is true, while deeply unsettling Pattern as to what she would do with the corpse.  Use it as a chair, or food, or a sword, or something.

 

I believe it's actually "I am terrified" after Pattern (presume this is Pattern, we haven't been introduced to him yet though) asks "What are you?".  He then says "This is true," and she can access Shadesmar.  WoK Ch. 45, Shadesmar

Edited October 3, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, Dahak said:

They are still bound to the first Oath. Which I suspect is Ishar's doing.

Except the first oath is nothing like it's been presented in book. I honestly believe the first oath has more to do with what sparked the Recreance than anything about a moral compass for the Radiants. 

[Dahak]

5 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

What did the bondsmiths DO? How did they rip off a part of the soul... of an entire species? How is that even possible? 

Rashek did something similar.

4 hours ago, Knabepicer said:

Isn't there WoB that no Parshmen were Radiants?

That they never have been before IIRC.

[kiapet]

4 hours ago, Knabepicer said:

Isn't there WoB that no Parshmen were Radiants?

Every time he's asked he gives answers like, "There never has been one before" or "Someone in-universe would say they can't be". Now the Everstorm is interacting with Parshmen in ways no one has ever seen before. Seems like a great time to start having exceptions to the "rule".

[teknopathetic]

"The many wells in Urithiru, however, never ran out. The water level didn’t even drop, despite people constantly drawing from them."

My first thought was that the water system is somehow drawing water from the cognitive realm. Mountains/large solids are water in the cognitive realm, and maybe there is someway of siphoning that water? If not, maybe there is a mini-portal?

Edited October 3, 2017 by teknopathetic

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Stark said:

I don't feel that there is a moral code to Lightweavers, as long as they honor the truths they have admitted to their spren.

"Not all spren are as discerning as honorspren"

[hypatia]

I think a Parsher Radiant is more possible at the moment because they don't change constantly their spren. They can now make a lasting Nahelbond.

This would also prevent bonding with a voidspren.

[Dreamstorm]

10 minutes ago, kiapet said:

Every time he's asked he gives answers like, "There never has been one before" or "Someone in-universe would say they can't be". Now the Everstorm is interacting with Parshmen in ways no one has ever seen before. Seems like a great time to start having exceptions to the "rule".

I think whether or not Rlain is/becomes a Kaladin squire will be a big clue regarding whether or not Parshendi/Parshman Radiants are possible.  (I personally think they are possible, and more specifically think Eshonai will become a Radiant.  I'm guessing this has been discussed somewhere on here before though!)

[kmosiman]

8 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

"The many wells in Urithiru, however, never ran out. The water level didn’t even drop, despite people constantly drawing from them."

My first thought was that the water system is somehow drawing water from the cognitive realm. Mountains/large solids are water in the cognitive realm, and maybe there is someway of siphoning that water? If not, maybe there is a mini-portal?

I like the hidden aquifer idea. If the nearby mountains have glaciers or snow caps there could be flowing water without it appearing to  melt. Urithiru could tap into an underground stream. This would keep the water in the wells level and as long as there was an outlet elsewhere, they wouldn't overflow.

[teknopathetic]

1 minute ago, kmosiman said:

I like the hidden aquifer idea. If the nearby mountains have glaciers or snow caps there could be flowing water without it appearing to  melt. Urithiru could tap into an underground stream. This would keep the water in the wells level and as long as there was an outlet elsewhere, they wouldn't overflow.

It just seems like the aquifer idea can't be right, since the author went out of his way to cause suspicion of the idea. 

[Kered]

***Scattered thoughts directly after reading, will come back and edit. Sorry if some it is repeats. 

The "remembering Evi causes Dalinar to start forgetting Navani" kind of boggles my mind. Would make for a great conflict, ending with a great resolution. Dalinar going back to the Nightwatcher, serving the duel purpose of us getting an introduction with the NW and Dalinar getting freed from his curse/boon. But I don't see it feasible with him forgetting Navani when she's still alive. 

I don't trust the Bridge Thirteen guy. I don't think he's working for Odium, I think it either be the Ghostbloods or Mr T. 

Anyone think the church is going to lash out at Dalinar? I don't see them bowing to him and admitting their mistakes, even if some how the Stormfather agrees to show some the ardents the visions. Would be really hard for an establishment like that to admit to the world that they've been wrong for centuries, especially with the church's past. 

I think we're going to see war between the kingdoms before we see war with a voidbringer army. The reluctance from the other rulers to join Dalinar and the dealings with the voidbringers has a Mr T feel to it though. Would be a great way to undercut Dalinar and show the world that Mr. T can run the world. The more I think about it, with all the theories out their, I can see Odium manipulating Mr.T into making sure the Kingdoms of the world stay separate, and limit Dalinar's power. It's a common goal both Odium and Mr.T share 

Would be good with the spren with the parshamn turned out be the voidspren version of honorspren. Would be reeeeeeally easy for the voidspren to rally the parshman to start battling the humans. 

Calling it now, Dalinar is going to give the Honorblade to Adolin and send him out as his emissary. 1. Adolin is someone he can trust 2. Would be able to keep the other Radiants 3. Adolin will jump at the chance to leave so he can extract himself from the investigation. 

When in damnation are they going to find Oathbringer, and who will find it? Plot twist, Rial has it and is going to try and take either Dalinar or Navani out. 

Shallan is going to crack soon. Either that or she's going to get stuck in one of her disguises. 

Almost had a heart attack when Syl started to act like a windspren again. 

That little parshmen girl is going to be a main stay, I think. Probably wrong, just my gut feeling. 

I wonder why Dalinar didn't ask for clarification on 'ole Andy. It's the second time he's heard the name said with some significance, you'd think that would catch his attention. 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2017 by Kered

[Harsh Varia]

Sorry for breaking the chain of the conversation but I just read the chapters and could not resist to post. I felt like these were the best chapters so Far. Super impressed with Shallan's Chapter. She is turning into an awesome character. I mean I realize that she is acting super crazy but I feel she is truly branching out as a character. Somewhere down the road she will have to reconcile her split personalities.

Kaladin gets a whole new perspective on Parshmen. Oh and Dalinar was pretty awesome too. Finally felt like the Blackthorn and not a politician or a lover.

[DSC01]

2 minutes ago, Harsh Varia said:

Sorry for breaking the chain of the conversation but I just read the chapters and could not resist to post. I felt like these were the best chapters so Far. Super impressed with Shallan's Chapter. She is turning into an awesome character. I mean I realize that she is acting super crazy but I feel she is truly branching out as a character. Somewhere down the road she will have to reconcile her split personalities.

Kaladin gets a whole new perspective on Parshmen. Oh and Dalinar was pretty awesome too. Finally felt like the Blackthorn and not a politician or a lover.

I definitely agree with you. I already posted something along these lines, but I really felt like these three chapters finally really got things going, for me. It helps that it was one chapter each for our three main characters in this book, but also that each chapter brought so much cool stuff to the fore--stuff that has major implications on a number of levels.

Dalinar - Hiding the Honorblade & the Stormfather revealing (quite cryptically) that the Honorblades can make one like a Herald, the conflict with the church is taking shape, and he remembers his wife(!!!).

Kaladin - Info on the parshmen deepens the plot--these people were actual slaves, not just human-like animals, and they have become fully conscious, not been turned into slavering monsters--and Kaladin is back in his element as a leader, reminiscent of his work to turn Bridge 4 into a true unit in TWoK. I am also quite certain that Syl's explanation of how the parshmen were healed has direct bearing on how Dalinar's memories are coming back, but I've already been through all of that.

Shallan - The central conflict for her character in this book is really emerging. We saw hints of it with Brightness Radiant, but now we can be fairly certain that her attempts to fragment her personality are going to be a problem. Also--and this is big--the copycat murder situation has been totally turned on its head. Everything we've been talking about is almost certainly wrong. Someone or something is precisely copying others' murders, it would seem, and all of our conjecture about the first copycat murder's relationship to Sadeas being killed is apparently waaaaay off base.

[Ansalem]

17 minutes ago, Kered said:

I think we're going to see war between the kingdoms before we see war with a voidbringer army. The reluctance from the other rulers to join Dalinar and the dealings with the voidbringers has a Mr T feel to it though. Would be a great way to undercut Dalinar and show the world that Mr. T can run the world. The more I think about it, with all the theories out their, I can see Odium manipulating Mr.T into making sure the Kingdoms of the world stay separate, and limit Dalinar's power. It's a common goal both Odium and Mr.T share.

If you mean keeping the kingdoms separate as the goal Odium and Taravangian share, no they don't. Taravangian's goal is to unite the world, and more specifically his goal is to become king of everything.

If you mean limiting Dalinar's power, then maybe. I don't think it's very clear what Taravangian has planned for Dalinar yet. The way the Diagram was worded still leaves it open to interpretation whether he thinks Dalinar is currently a threat to him or a potential ally.

But either way, his goal is to unite the world and prepare mankind for the next Desolation.

[Lazarus52980]

Am I the only person who thinks "training" the Parshmen is going to end up backfiring at least to some extent?  I think of it like in the WoT where the Circle is taught to "have a backbone" only to have that very backbone cause problems to the main characters.

[WhiteLeeopard]

1 minute ago, Ansalem said:

If you mean keeping the kingdoms separate as the goal Odium and Taravangian share, no they don't. Taravangian's goal is to unite the world, and more specifically his goal is to become king of everything.

If you mean limiting Dalinar's power, then maybe. I don't think it's very clear what Taravangian has planned for Dalinar yet. The way the Diagram was worded still leaves it open to interpretation whether he thinks Dalinar is currently a threat to him or a potential ally.

But either way, his goal is to unite the world and prepare mankind for the next Desolation.

For all we know T wants to unite the world to then unilaterally yield to Odium. 

I'm not saying I believe this, but we really have no idea on the Diagram's endgame.

[Ansalem]

2 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

For all we know T wants to unite the world to then unilaterally yield to Odium. 

I'm not saying I believe this, but we really have no idea on the Diagram's endgame.

I thought he made it pretty clear to Szeth. His goal is to preserve humanity after the Desolation. I suppose he might think yielding to Odium could achieve that, but I don't really see it.

[DSC01]

1 minute ago, Lazarus52980 said:

Am I the only person who thinks "training" the Parshmen is going to end up backfiring at least to some extent?  I think of it like in the WoT where the Circle is taught to "have a backbone" only to have that very backbone cause problems to the main characters.

Possibly, but if so, I don't think it will be much like the example of the Knitting Circle. I think that a lot of fans have been kind of ignoring the fact that almost every single lead character in this story has absolutely no problem with slavery, and I don't think Brandon intends to let us continue to get away with it. He almost set it up that way, lulling us into a false sense of what Alethi slavery is like, with the parshmen as human automatons or clever beasts and comments on how ardents are technically owned, even though it doesn't really seem like it. Yeah, we have the negative examples (Sadeas), but it has been easy to write that off as what happens when you have an evil man in charge.

Now, we're being forced to confront the fact that horrible things were done to the parshmen. Sure, by people who didn't realize that there was a trapped soul in there, horrified at their lot, but the parshmen were still bred like animals and torn apart from their families. Kaladin helping them might yield mixed results, but I sincerely doubt that the outcome will be, "Kunta Kinte was the real villain all along! Take that, Toby!"

[WhiteLeeopard]

4 minutes ago, Ansalem said:

I thought he made it pretty clear to Szeth. His goal is to preserve humanity after the Desolation. I suppose he might think yielding to Odium could achieve that, but I don't really see it.

Technically Hate cannot exist without living beings to hate each other, . So yielding to Odium might create a society of hate, lack of trust, lack of law etc but I do not believe it would completely wipe out humanity. Odium isn't Ruin.