[OB] Oathbringer chapters 16-18

[Fulminato]

On 3/10/2017 at 4:49 PM, Pagerunner said:

Hold up. Time's not a Surge. Why list it with two other Surges?

So, why? This was the first time we've seen him Surgebind; maybe drawing in that much Stormlight healed damage in his mind? I thought maybe the painrial could have played a role, but he had it on over his uniform, which he took off to spar, so I don't think he was wearing it anymore. I'm a little concerned that it might be connected to what happens in the next chapter - Odium's influence restoring the Listeners' lost minds. What the Nightwatcher removed, Odium may have brought back. That would be quite disturbing, since it would show Odium's influence in Urithiru.

- The metal art (scandiral magic system) can influence the time flow. and we know very little on regard the old magic an we don't know anything on the voidbinding.

- the healing by stromlight need to consume the stormlight itself, if indeed that stormlight had healed the lost connection, it cannot be used for surgebinding,

On 3/10/2017 at 5:10 PM, Calderis said:

Dalinar's chapter... The looming confrontation between Dalinar and the Devotaries looks worse and worse. The diplomatic efforts of the Voidbringers are concerning, and seriously... The Nightwatcher's alterations shouldn't be fixable by Stormlight or oath progression... Otherwise Lift shouldn't be possible. What in damnation is going on with Dalinar remembering his wife now?  

i don't think stormlight healed dalinar, but lift is a wierid thing, even for the nightwatcer's standard. I don't know if she can take in example to confirm or reject that teory.

21 hours ago, IntentAwesome said:

Also, on Urithiru, a bit of a wild theory. But there is some legend that says Honor built the place himself right? What if the copycat murders are part of some kind of checks and balances system? If you commit a crime, kill someone, then the cost is the life of someone else. Some bizarre way of maintaining balance. And an interesting way to keep a bunch of people who have very powerful weapons in check. It might make them think twice about doing something to someone. Not quite sure how exactly that fits in with Honor, as there are no oaths involved. Still thinking on it... 

honor is described alwasy (even by kalak) 'above', syl tell to kaladin 'the winds are of honor'. i think urithiru was build in the roshar's highest mountain. the place closest to honor.

 

18 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I think its a cultural thing. The Thrill was mainly in Alethkar, but I think we might have seen that there was also a bit on Jah Keved. Don't quote me on that though, as I'm not certain . Its quite likely the Unmade which causes the Thrill resided in Alethkar, this made the Alethi more bloodthirsty warriors, which started legends of how the Thrill was a gift from the Almighty (irony hello). 

Mr T. think nergaoul is on the move westward, so he can influence jah keved, and this only after the civil war consuming the kingdom.

16 hours ago, Todesengel said:

I was just about to mention this! When it was mentioned that those wells never run out, I immediately thought of Cultivation's Shardpool in the Horneater Mountains. I bet Honor's Shardpool is underneath Urithiru. I wonder where Odium's Shardpool is... Origin? Somewhere else? I'm looking at the map right now, but nothing is really standing out...

Odium isn't on roshar. so don't think his shardpool will be find on the planet. odium can extend his influence on roshar but not inhabit the planet. pheraphs hi shardpool will be find on brazie.

2 hours ago, Pattern said:

I am not sure whether "I am terrified" counts as a truth raising her radiant level. It was a very temporary truth just used to enter Shadesmar once. Her last said truth "I killed my mother" enabled Pattern to appear as a sprenblade, effectively establishing the same level Kaladin is on with Syl and his third Oath.

Shallan could have progressed even further during her childhood but her denying has thrown her back.

another truth she needed to accept is the difference between his 'shardblade' and the other. right before activate the oathgate

“It’s not working,” Adolin shouted. Only one answer. Shallan grabbed the hilt of his sword and whipped it out—ignoring the scream in her mind that came from touching it—then tossed it aside. Adolin’s sword vanished to mist. A deep truth. “There is something wrong with your Blade, and with all Blades.” She hesitated for just a second. “All but mine. Pattern!” WoR Chapter 86 "patterns of light"

[Ciridae]

I didn't have time to read what everyone wrote, but here are some of my thoughts.

I guess everyone must be freaking out about Dalinar remembering his wife at this point, I don't know whether it's him being healed or his curse shifting to Navani. This could end badly for his bond to the stormfather if he can't keep his marriage vow. 

Good that we got to see the Honorblade. I'm chomping at the bit for some Tension action though. 

 

Spren know about Identity and Connection? I like it, they should. Syl tricking the voidspren was fun to see too. You go. 

Finally some listener kids. Adorable.

I really appreciated hearing the listeners' first thoughts on being enslaved. Kaladin can relate to them more than other humans, but they are right, it's not the same. The voidspren will be a problem, especially as soon as the next highstorm comes. I think that Khen, the female listener, will bond with the spren and become the first real voidbringer of the group. 

Poor Shallan. A lot of you were right to worry about her personas last week. It looks like we'll go deeper down the rabbit hole. The Ghostbloods are terrifying. When is Veil going to get an illusionary GB tattoo? 

I don't know what to make of the double murders. I'm torn between rogue Radiant and Unmade. But Shallan is getting to the bottom of it faster than any of the others. Radiant vs Radiant would be fun, but finally seeing one of the Unmade as an antagonist would be amazing too.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Ciridae

[BlackYeti]

3 hours ago, Stark said:

Different topic! @Mistbornwithakitty - The Name of SHSHSHSHSHSH.  I don't know if you read the collection of Dalinar flashbacks titled The Thrill that were released as a short story in that collection last year?  If not, spoilers below.

  Hide contents

I am pretty sure the next flashback we get will be when Dalinar meets Evi, and she is named.  My biggest confusion from reading those was why Dalinar could see her and hear her name in the flashbacks.  Now we know, its coming back in the present.  My thoughts are that the flashback reveal will be to do with the other gaps in his memory, like why his ardent buddy stopped being a soldier.

 

Dalinar can remember his wife's name in the flashbacks because he hasn't yet visited the Nightwatcher. Keep in mind, the flashbacks are not the characters remembering their past. They are the result of Brandon telling the story nonsequentially, so therefore he can embed details in them that the characters wouldn't remember in the main narrative. This is also why he is able to have flashbacks for dead characters if necessary.

[+Wax]

I have to say, despite it being Dalinar’s book, Shallan still stands out the most.  

Kaladin - yep, sort it out with Parshendi and go to Kohlinar- check.

Dalinar - unite the world - check.

Shallan’s a real unknown here.  Her next truth can be about her childhood or about the personas she’s creating.  She could be looking at the murders or chasing strange stuff in Urithiru.  So much potential with her!

[Ryder]

I think the reason Lift's boon/curse hasn't been messed with as a result of her bond with Wyndle is because whatever the Nightwatcher did doesn't directly relate to or interfere with what broke her soul.  We don't know what exactly the Nightwatcher did to Dalinar, but my guess is either the boon or the curse resulted in him forgetting the events that caused his soul to crack.   Those cracks are what allowed him to eventually become a KR, even if he doesn't remember them.  As he bonds with the Stormfather, investiture begins to fill in and interfere with the Nightwatcher's effects. 

As examples, take the guy who went to the Nightwatcher and got a bunch of cloth in return for seeing upside down.  I think if he had some traumatic event happen later in life that allowed him to bond a spren, it would not result in anything changing for him.  The cloth or the money he got for it wouldn't disappear, and he wouldn't go back to seeing right-side-up (probably).  That's more like Lift.  But, hypothetically, say Kaladin somehow decided to go see the Nightwatcher and asked to forget about Tien's death, Amaram's betrayal, and his time as a slave.  The Nightwatcher chops off a piece of his sDNA, removes his connection to those people/events, or does whatever she does to make him forget.  Assuming he still manages to attract and bond with Syl, as their bond strengthens it would begin to interfere in a similar way as to what's happening with Dalinar. 

I think I agree with your analogy @Salkara.  Also, I don't think it's necessarily sucking in the stormlight or the surgebinding that's causing Dalinar to regain his memory.  I think those are all symptoms of his bond with the Stormfather getting stronger.  It allows him to easily suck in stormlight (Kaladin struggled with this when his bond with Syl weakened), lets him Surgebind (Kaladin and Shallan weren't able to surgebind until they reached a certain "level"), and is now to the point where it's interfering with his specific boon/curse.

[Salkara]

1 minute ago, Ryder said:

@SalkaraI think the reason Lift's boon/curse hasn't been messed with as a result of her bond with Wyndle is because whatever the Nightwatcher did doesn't directly relate to or interfere with what broke her soul.

There's also the issue of perception right? Lift perceives her food => Stormlight as awesome. Dalinar perceives the loss of his memories as a hole. When the Stormlight healing is filtered through the Cognitive Realm, it's going to heal one and not the other.

[Pattern]

18 minutes ago, Salkara said:

There's also the issue of perception right? Lift perceives her food => Stormlight as awesome. Dalinar perceives the loss of his memories as a hole. When the Stormlight healing is filtered through the Cognitive Realm, it's going to heal one and not the other.

Yes, that is why Kaladin still has his scars although he has used a lot of Stormlight.

[DSC01]

I think some people are misunderstanding the concept of Investiture resisting Investiture (it is possible that I am the one misunderstanding, but that seems unlikely to me ). So, yes, Cognitively distinct entities that are Invested will resist being acted upon by outside Investiture, as in the example of attempting to Steelpush a metalmind. However, after the feruchemist in this example rids themself of the meddling Coinshot trying to mess with their metalminds, they will not find any resistance when they try to put more Investiture into that metalmind. While we haven't seen it happen yet, I would wager that this would still be the case if they managed to get themselves some Investiture from a different Shard. Investiture is Investiture.

I think that it is a mistake to look at the Nightwatcher's influence as something Invested within Dalinar that resisted being healed. Unless we look at the influence as something of a distinct foreign entity residing in Dalinar's mind (or soul or whatever), it ought to be part of the same Cognitive entity--that is, Dalinar--and therefore not resist any kind of Investing that Dalinar is doing. In fact, it that scenario, any Investiture Dalinar put in would only serve to fuel the magical device blocking his memory.

As it has been noted, Dalinar himself perceives the memories, not as being blocked, but as a hole. Like I said before, in the very next chapter, Syl explains how what seems to be the exact same thing was done (albeit much more thoroughly and dramatically) to the parshmen. A piece of their soul was cut out, their Connections to their entire Identities were severed, and Investiture healed that. Surely, Investiture was involved in the severing, but it isn't sticking around now to maintain the rift. If I cut a piece of paper in half, I don't leave the scissors there to maintain the slice.

I think that it is very simple: Stormlight healed Dalinar's memory, just like Odium's Investiture healed the parshmen's minds.Why did it only happen now? I believe that it was because he was holding Stormlight when Navani mentioned Evi's name. With the Connection to her memory severed, it didn't register as part of his Identity, and much like Kaladin's scars, was therefore not ever healed. However, when the name tried to follow the Cognitive pathway into Dalinar's perception, instead of just stopping where that path was severed as usual, the Stormlight "noticed" the cut and healed it. That's my hypothesis, anyway.

[Blacksmithki]

Any chance that his messed up memories could be a barrier between neurons, it would not technically be an injury therefore not be healed by my understanding of cosmere healing (aren't bullets only pushed out because of regrowing tissue?). However the bodies failure to access said memories would be an issue, possibly healed by the creation of a new pathway triggered by failure to remember/hear Evi's name when he admit's to such, then healing next time he used stormlight, allowing him to hear it the next time. Due to cosmere healing not being instant, I find it unlikely that he could have possibly healed and heard her name during chapter 16, would he not have either missed part of it or not heard it?

[Pattern]

33 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

Investiture is Investiture.

This is not true.

You cannot use every Investiture for every magic system. There are hacks enabling to use different kinds of Investiture in some systems, but there are inherent differences. The main distinguishing factor is whether the Investiture is keyed to Identity or not. Feruchemical charges and Breath are examples for keyed Investiture while Stormlight very likely is unkeyed (uncertain if another Radiant can suck up bound Stormlight (e.g. from Shallan's illusions) or only the one who did the surgebinding).

Vasher/Zahel found a hack to use Stormlight to feed instead of Breath, however that does not mean any Returned would be able to do so. Stormlight is not the same as Breath, both are different kinds of Investiture.

The opposite character of Devotion's and Dominion's Investitures creates the rather unpleasant Cognitive Realm on Sel. They don't simply mix but create a pressure which make them even leak into the Physical Realm when encouraged gently (AonDor, soulstamps, etc).

So there is no reason to assume that Cultivation Investiture is the same as Honor Investiture. Spren both of Honor and Cultivation (and mixes) enable surgebindings powered by Stormlight. Stormlight itself is Honor's Investiture (as are many spren) and stuffed into the Physical Realm (into the Highstorms), Cultivation also invested on Roshar but she is still alive and therefore the bulk of her Investiture should be in the Spiritual Realm. As a correlary, the amount of Stormlight in Highstorms should have increased significantly after Honor's death. Perhaps we will find out about that in the few pages yet to come.

Your example of a metalmind not resisting further storing is explained as follows: Feruchemical charges are in general keyed to the Identity of the feruchemist who stored his attribute in it. He can fill and tap it until it is full or empty respectively. It cannot be accessed by another feruchemist at all - except you consider the newly discovered unkeyed metalminds.

We simply do not know how the Nightwatcher modifies her visitors. Might be she removes or just alters sDNA. Perceived as an injury these alterations would be subject to Stormlight healing. There is WoB that even ripped out parts of the soul (via Hemalurgy) can be replaced by Investiture, therefore healing the person (if he/she survived the spiking at all).

I suspect Dalinar to have uttered another oath unknowingly, therefore increasing the efficiency of his stormlight ("I accept the authority of the Heralds"). In the aftermath Dalinar's "curse/boon" were healed.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Pattern

[DSC01]

@maxal I had the exact opposite reaction as you to this week's chapters. I felt like finally stuff has started happening, maybe not in terms of action, but with a lot of plot details being kicked off.

With Dalinar, we get the Honorblade and basically the confirmation that we'll see someone wield it soon. We start to see the depth of the conflict that Dalinar is setting off with the church. The fact that the Voidbringers are going to cause problems with unifying Roshar, not by wreaking havoc as an invading army but by normalizing political relations with various governments--that is very much coming into focus. And, of course, Dalinar's memories are coming back.

With Kaladin, I don't see this as a retread of his WoK arc at all. Rather, it is a return to a role that he is suited for, after spending a whole book being too depressed to fill it. Granted, if tutoring the parshmen is his whole arc in this book, it will be disappointing, but I see this as a welcome sign that Kaladin is accepting himself and growing into his role as Radiant nicely. Also, we've got mentions of how Realmatic stuff works from Syl, and the most important thing to happen, from my perspective, is that we really are made to understand that this is not going to be a simple good-and-evil morality tale. The parshmen are not orcs or trollocks or even just brutish barbarians. Since WoR, we've known that the Listener plotline was going to be more complex than a monstrous enemy that we can feel okay about seeing our heroes slaughter. But at the time, we were lead to believe that this would be because we knew that there were good people trapped inside stormform monsters. This is even better for a complex story with difficult moral choices. The parshmen are slaves escaping oppression. 

Then there's Shallan. As I've said before, I think that this chapter really sets up the character's central conflict for this volume--her attempt to avoid painful memories by creating separate identities for herself. As much as Kaladin's failure to protect damaged his bond with Syl, I think that Shallan's failure to tell herself the truth at such a grand scale will damage her bond with Pattern. Maybe it won't be as dramatic as what happened with Kaladin, but I'd say that her Oathrbinger arc will echo Kaladin's WoR arc. And then the murder mystery threw us for a loop that no one predicted. There is something going on here that none of us guessed. And the thing is, it should become apparent very quickly that while they do have a serial killer of some kind on their hands, every time that killer murders someone, there's a second murderer to worry about. I think this makes things more dangerous for Adolin. Soon, everyone will know that the killing of the Kholin ally was not linked, in terms of motive, to Sadeas being killed. That means that the Sadeas camp will have more reason to regard his death as a politically motivated assassination.

Edited October 4, 2017 by DSC01
typos

[DSC01]

@Pattern What I mean is that the raw power of Investiture is all pretty much identical. It all originated in Adonalsium, and it should therefore be essentially the same, in its raw form.

My laptop needs energy to run, and there is energy in a stick. My laptop cannot run on that stick, of course, but if I could find a way to get the energy out of the stick and turn it into electricity that I appropriately funnel into the laptop, then it absolutely would. I can say, "energy is energy," but still be aware that I can't lock a guy in a room with a dead laptop and throw a twig at him, then wait for him to get the computer booted up. I'm looking at Investiture in the same way.

When I say that a feruchemist wouldn't experience any resistance storing Investiture from, say, Endowment because Investiture is Investiture, I do so assuming that however they got a hold of a Breath, they have managed to create a Connection to it and key it to their Identity, such that they can store it. My argument is that they could do that with any source of Investiture, from any Shard. Granted, the process for hacking it might differ, but once you've got it hacked, there is nothing essential about the raw Investiture that would make it different from any other Investiture.

 

[Emerald101]

Except in order for something to be investiture like how it was as part of Adonlasium, it would have to contain intent from all of the shards. The energy analogy fails because it doesn't have any consideration for intent. 

[Pattern]

@DSC01 You forget the differing Intents of the ... @Emerald101

ninjaed...just now

I should go back and edit my previous posting where I said the main distinguishing trait is keyed/unkeyed to Intent.
For tiny amounts of Investiture that would perhaps be insignificant, as soon as the Investiture starts to become sentient though...

On a small scale we see that even in the specific behaviour of Radiantspren. Syl is based on Investiture of another Intent than Pattern, thus demanding very different kind of things from their pet knight.

Surgebinding would not work with Odium's Investiture. What you get instead is Voidbinding.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Pattern

[DSC01]

I am accounting for Intent, but I'm looking at it as just another factor in the hacking. I don't think Intent changes the base essence of the Investiture. We may learn differently eventually, but that is my impression, based on what I've read so far. 

[Emerald101]

M:SH

Spoiler

After Kelsier ascends to Preservation he tries to talk to people, but can't, and Ruin tells hit it's because preservation's investiture tries too hard to shore things up. IMO this demonstrates a fundamental difference in how Ruin's and Preservation's investiture behaves.

 

[Pattern]

21 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

I am accounting for Intent, but I'm looking at it as just another factor in the hacking. I don't think Intent changes the base essence of the Investiture. We may learn differently eventually, but that is my impression, based on what I've read so far. 

If you take away all distinguishing properties of Investiture, sure what remains is the same. Some form of power enabling stuff that physics does not allow.

Just to say if you hack away Intent, Connection and Identity all Investiture were the same, is no real argument for me. Nobody In-world knows how to do that, so Investiture from different shards is not the same. This is like saying all colors are the same, all you have to do is just put the light off.

The reason for Odium not picking up any other shards but splintering them is that he does not want to merge /contaminate his Intent with that of any other shard. This should be indication enough that Intent cannot be hacked way with the wave of a hand. A shard should know how to do it.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Pattern

[The Invested Beard]

Okay so this is totally off topic, but I was reading back a few pages where people were talking about the Iriali and their focus on experience...

 

Guys, Jimi Hendrix was an Iriali world hopper.

 

Carry on.

[Frostlander]

As I've been thinking about the current "lie" that Pattern mentioned needed addressing, I started wondering about Shallan's gaps in memory.

Quote

“Shallan,” Pattern said. “This is… mmm… there is something wrong with these lies you place upon yourself. I don’t understand it.”

“I just need to go deeper,” she whispered. “I can’t be Veil only on the surface.”

1

Pattern and Shallan had many conversations in WoR that were only half finished, leading us to wrong conclusions, or where Pattern had to let Shallan figure some things out for herself. Or conversations where he didn't understand something himself. 

I'm also curious why Shallan hasn't been contacted by the Ghostbloods yet, and I'm wondering if these things are part of a larger picture.

Quote

Shallan stopped in place, suddenly frantic. “My brothers. Pattern, I didn’t kill them, right?”

“What?” he said.

“I talked to Balat over spanreed,” Shallan said, hand to her forehead. “But… I had Lightweaving then… even if I didn’t fully know it. I could have fabricated that. Every message from him. My own memories…”

“Shallan,” Pattern said, sounding concerned. “No. They live. Your brothers live. Mraize said he rescued them. They are on their way here. This isn’t the lie.” His voice grew smaller. “Can’t you tell?”

She adopted Veil again, her pain fading. “Yes. Of course I can tell.” She started forward again.

3

We know she's been drawing places she doesn't remember going, and she has a bedroom that allows her to sneak out of the main area and sneak back in. Has she been meeting with the Ghostbloods, going on missions for them, and not remembering? Has she committed violent acts and not remembered? She wants to be Veil on more than just a surface level, but Veil is violent, she's someone who stabs people to make a point. So, I think the groundwork has been laid for Shallan to be running around as a Ghostblood operative but pretending she's not doing iffy things. 

I'm not sure what is causing these issues with memory, but the fact that Pattern is concerned and seems to find her "lies" wrong when he normally loves complex lies, makes me think that Shallan isn't just under the influence of a kooky Urithiru. Something is interfering with "normal" Lightweaver behavior.

Crazy but unsubstantiated guess is that one of the Unmade who we haven't met has hijacked her specific abilities but has somehow not harmed her Nahel bond. Yet? Someone with more realmatic knowledge might be able to figure out how the mechanics would work...

Most of this will probably be obliterated by next week's chapters, but it's still fun to try! 

[Mulk]

I was pondering on the speculation on Shallan's oaths/truths.  According to her flashbacks, she was able to summon a blade at a young age.  Clearly, from the Cryptics' perspective, she was already bonded and moving along the path to full Radiance when she was a small child, else Pattern would not have been able to manifest as a Shardblade for her.  I think what is more likely is she reverted some (perhaps similar to what happened with Syl and Kaladin in WoR) and only after slowly becoming more honest with herself was she able to begin moving along the path again, so her first ideal beyond the original oath and possibly her second were actually well back in time, something we haven't actually seen on page.  I say this as I'm not sure admitting she killed her father counts as a level up truth as we never see her denying it except to outsiders who did not know she was behind his death or that he was dead at all.  Thoughts?

[Pattern]

@MulkWhen we first met Shallan in WoK, she had no traces of surgebinding abilities. The only remnant of her former Lightweaving were her mnemonic abilities in capturing pictures and drawing them at a later time. Perhaps those even are not related to Lightweaving but just a non-magical talent, which is later enhanced and supported by her use of Lightweaving. Her first new experience of Surgebinding - after her memory block - is her not quite intended trip to Shadesmar where she soulcasts the goblet to blood. Or if you want, her glimpsing the spren in Shadesmar who then appeared in her drawings.
This is quite similar to Elhokar seeing things from the corners of his eyes. A subconcious glimpse into the Cognitive Realm with quite different results.

Shallans first truth said to a spren thus is "I am terrified". I think this is a very weak truth, which possibly is just accepted because Shallan was much farther progressed as a Radiant in her childhood.

Ok, I need to stray off now. An Idea struck me concerning Shallan's final truth:

"My mother tried to kill me because Pattern cought her - cheating on my dad (replace with whatever) - thus revealing my developing Radiancy. Pattern is the reason for all my agonies."

[Mulk]

@Pattern

I get all that.  And perhaps she did start almost all the way over, though clearly she didn't have to completely restart as we don't ever see her retaking the first Words and Pattern was her blade and spren as a child.  I'm still rather interested in what her first set of truths were and how it was she was so cracked as a child that a spren could bond with her; and how a child could know to speak the Words at all.  All of the really bad stuff we know of from her life (aside from Mom wanting to kill her - which in the minutes between when that happened and when Shallan kills her I don't know how that would be enough time to bond a spren and progress up the chain enough for a Blade) is after and/or a result of her summoning Pattern in blade form.

As to your last, that may very well be the case...I hope not, but it might be.  Brandon is certainly devious enough for that to happen.  It really all comes back to what I'm after in the first place though.  I've got the feeling that as bad as we know the Davar household to have been, it was probably worse.

[treblkickd]

35 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

M:SH

  Hide contents

After Kelsier ascends to Preservation he tries to talk to people, but can't, and Ruin tells hit it's because preservation's investiture tries too hard to shore things up. IMO this demonstrates a fundamental difference in how Ruin's and Preservation's investiture behaves.

 

I'm jumping into the middle of this discussion, so apologies, but I think this quote/info from MB:SH is not directly relevant to the idea of investiture having intent. Specifically, 

Spoiler

the example quoted involves Kelsier absorbing the entirety of Preservation's power, which I do not think is at all relatable to the investiture that someone is given access to via the magic systems that spawn from various shards. 

 

[Pattern]

3 minutes ago, Mulk said:

I'm still rather interested in what her first set of truths were and how it was she was so cracked as a child that a spren could bond with her; and how a child could know to speak the Words at all

Agreed. That is something I also would like to know.

5 minutes ago, Mulk said:

I've got the feeling that as bad as we know the Davar household to have been, it was probably worse.

A small child was cracked enough to bond a spren, so yes! House Davar was probably worse than we have seen until now.

[Emerald101]

M:SH

Spoiler

The phrasing Ruin used was "your investiture . . .". He didn't say "You" can't or "Preservation" can't.