[OB] Oathbringer chapters 16-18

[Darvys]

Perhaps Odium is sending his spren mainly to the weaker kingdoms ? why send them to Alethkar where they'll be hunted down and slaughtered the moment the portal is opened, only to then move them somewhere else ? I could easily see him targeting nations which, while vital for the war to come, lack the Alethi might to be able to reppel him. 

[Hyarmenatan]

Zahel's comparison that something is as clear as white on black is amusing for Poles, as in Poland when something is very, very obvious and clear it is demonstrated black on white. Is Nalthis in Poland?

Dalinar remembers his wife, because his curse was to forget his wife. Right now Navani is his wife, and Evi is his ex-wife. So he remembers Evi (ex-wife), but will eventually start forgetting Navani (wife). Not cool.

The copycat murderer is definitely of supernatural origin. In the separate thread with a poll there was an option to answer the question "Who is the copycat murderer?" with "Adolin, but he doesn't know it'. I currently believe that giving it all to the rage and commiting a murder leaves some crash in the Soul, letting one of the Unmade in to take you over and commit more atrocities. Poor Adolin. 

 

[Pattern]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Could Shallan's admission be part of the reason why she is going deeper into her lies? She doesn't want to be herself?

Of course. It is escapism at its finest. Her lies are a way of evading the hurt and guilt associated with her real personality.

When forgetting the truth does not work anymore (because it's Lightweaver's pendant to an Oath), Shallan goes deeper into her illusions. Because she doesn't want to be herself, because she cannot suffer being herself. Brightness Radiant and Veil will eat Shallan from both sides now, while Shallan/Veil were somewhat balanced.

This obstacle she needs to overcome in order to progress further as a Knight Radiant, and her current path does not seem to be the most healthy one. Horneater lager, really. Stabbing her hand seems irrelevant compared to that.

1 hour ago, Hyarmenatan said:

Zahel's comparison that something is as clear as white on black is amusing for Poles, as in Poland when something is very, very obvious and clear it is demonstrated black on white. Is Nalthis in Poland?

I guess the phrase "black on white" is quite universal, as it is a metaphor for text (black) printed/written on paper (white). Where was it they wrote with white ink on black slate?

White Sand spoiler:

Spoiler

Well, it's Taldain dayside they write with white, oily ink on dark paper made from carapace.

Warbreaker spoiler:

Spoiler

On Nalthis, with all the dyes, writing would be done with any color - e.g Bluefingers seems to prefer blue ink.
White on Black. Black, the most potent color for awakening; White, totally drained of color after the Godking used color to awaken.

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Pattern

[Necessary Eagle]

Storms, I just noticed something.

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Time, the Stormfather said. Which, though dross to him, is the most valuable thing a man can have. 

This was reminding me of something, and now I know what. Remember the end of WoK? Hoid was lecturing the confused city guards on what the most valuable thing a man could have was. And what was his conclusion? Timeliness.

[kari-no-sugata]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

What really worries me about the Shallan situation:

Shallan admitted to "hating herself" and Pattern let out a pleased hum - or an agitated hum.

I'd say that Pattern's response is much more likely to be to Shallan's last words - “Just… please. Don’t go. Don’t die.”

It could also be in response to some "lie" though.

 

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Could Shallan's admission be part of the reason why she is going deeper into her lies? She doesn't want to be herself?

Shallan has never liked herself that I can remember. Her sense of self-preservation has always been weak though she also refuses to give up.

[dvoraen]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

What really worries me about the Shallan situation:

Shallan admitted to "hating herself" and Pattern let out a pleased hum - or an agitated hum.

Could Shallan's admission be part of the reason why she is going deeper into her lies? She doesn't want to be herself?

Pretty much.  She said as much during WoR as well when she created the illusion of herself curled up and ... empty inside, in effect showing who she really is.  However, she doesn't want to admit to herself that's who and what she is, so she lies to herself by way of saying "I'm this person", even though it's nothing more than a mask.  She buries the broken and emotionally destroyed version of herself with lies about who she is, via adopting personae.  Even "Shallan" is a lie, the quotes signifying that we're still seeing a facade, one that she's corroborated somewhat (again in WoR) "in the name of survival."

 

The problem that Pattern is tuning into ("can't you tell?") is that she's taking it too far, building a web of lies around the truth at her core and trying to pass it off to herself as the real deal, enough so that she's even starting to question whether she's deluded herself in other matters.  In other words, interpreting actual truths (memories of things she's done) as if they were fraudulent as well.  "Did I tell myself this is what happened when it didn't?"

Edited October 4, 2017 by dvoraen

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, dvoraen said:

Even "Shallan" is a lie, the quotes signifying that we're still seeing a facade

That is true... It's easy to forget by all theses personas she's throwing around. Though I guess "Shallan" is the lie closest to the the truth right now.

[Pattern]

55 minutes ago, dvoraen said:

Even "Shallan" is a lie, the quotes signifying that we're still seeing a facade, one that she's corroborated somewhat (again in WoR) "in the name of survival."

I don't agree. Shallan is obviously not the curled up girl, destroyed by her past. That is a picture of what she would likely have become without her coping mechanisms. She is able to laugh, to feel joy, even to light up the mood of others. Her lies enabled her not to be totally destroyed. The dangerous part for her now is that this coping mechanism is taken away slowly by her telling the truths to progress as a Radiant.

And how long is a lie still a lie? When does pretense become true? (Compare with Kaladin questioning the honor of Dalinar's trade of Oathbringer for the bridgemen).If Shallan perceives herself to be Veil too deeply, she could become Veil for real, the lie would become the truth.
Of course, there is a safeguard mechanism preventing Shallan from becoming stuck in an illusion. Somewhen her Stormlight would run out or Pattern could intervene as long as he is not killed in the process of Shallan losing herself.
The running out of stormlight could be very prolonged, since holding up an illusion only takes a trickle of Stormlight and Vasher/Zahel is able to obtain his weekly one-breath-amount of Investiture on Roshar much more easily than on Nalthis (the reason for his presense in the first place).

What is someone's true personality? Is there such a thing? I think we all are different personalities meshed into one human, the prominent one depending on the surroundings we are in at the moment. Different personality traits take over in different situations. The key lies in acknowledging the different traits and understanding when and where which one comes to prominence. As long as you can control that, you are yourself.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Pattern

[+Extesian]

So, after daylight saving made this a midnight release for me, and sleep/work got in the way, my long awaited first thoughts reply! I mean, awaited by me, 271 posts indicate that other peeps have been doin' a'thinkin'. Hmmm and I feel like there had been 271 posts last week when I did this...

Well those chapters gave a glorious wealth of info compared to the last three! Some wonderful mentions of realmatics, spren, Shards and bonds. Such delicious lies. Clearly I've read none of the other posts so apologises if you've seen it all before!

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Upon cursory inspection, it was indistinguishable from an ordinary Shardblade. Elegant, relatively small—in that it was barely five feet long— it was thin and curved like a tusk. It had patterns only at the base of the blade near the hilt.

There have been discussions on the length of Shardblades and Honorblades. Thank you for neatly answering both (even though that was the evidence to date).

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It doesn’t scream when I touch it,” he noted.

The knights, the Stormfather said in his head, broke their oaths. They aban-doned everything they’d sworn, and in so doing killed their spren. Other Blades are the corpses of those spren, which is why they scream at your touch. This weapon, instead, was made directly from Honor’s soul, then given to the Heralds. It is also the mark of an oath, but a different type—and does not have the mind to scream on its own.

“And Shardplate?” Dalinar asked.

Related, but different, the Stormfather rumbled. You haven’t spoken the oaths required to know more.

You cannot break oaths,” Dalinar said, fingers still resting on the Honor-blade. “Right?”

I cannot.

“What of the thing we fight? Odium, the origin of the Voidbringers and their spren. Can he break oaths?”

No, the Stormfather said. He is far greater than I, but the power of ancient Adonalsium permeates him. And controls him. Odium is a force like pressure, gravitation, or the movement of time. These things cannot break their own rules. Nor can he.

Oh Stormy, say more things like this please. Honorblades are not sentient. Dead Shardblades scream - it is not the live spren nor the Radiant's soul. Honorblades are directly of Honor (Which we knew by WoB) but the soul...I take the word loosely but it certainly confirms the the blades themselves are splinters, which makes me wonder about the status of the Heralds who 'broke' the Oathpact and what changes if they're no longer bonded to a splinter. And they are the mark of the Oathpact. And Shardplate is related but different! AND more confirmation that the spren, even the uberspren, are limited in what they can tell the Radiants after each oath, by their own oath. Oh. And Shards ARE bound by rules, by oaths. 

So much awesome (if largely expected) morsels of tasty truths. 

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I’ve seen that the enemy is preparing a champion,” Dalinar said. “A dark creature with red eyes and nine shadows. Will Honor’s suggestion work? Can I make Odium agree to a decisive contest between me and that champion?”

Of course Honor’s suggestion would work,the Stormfather said. He spoke it.

“I mean,” Dalinar said, “why would it work? Why would this Odium ever agree to a contest of champions? It seems too momentous a matter to risk on something so small and inferior as the prowess and will of men.”

Your enemy is not a man like you, the Stormfather replied, voice rum-bling, thoughtful. Even… frightened. He does not age. He feels. He is angry. But this does not change, and his rage does not cool. Epochs can pass, and he will remain the same.

To fight directly might coax out forces that could hurt him, as he has been hurt before. Those scars do not heal. To pick a champion, then lose, will only cost him time. He has that in plenitude. He still will not agree easily, but it is possible he will agree. If presented with the option in the right moment, the right way. Then he will be bound.

“And we win…”

 

Time, the Stormfather said. Which, though dross to him, is the most valuable thing a man can have.

 The beauty continues. The Stormpapa as the unreliable narrator - his steadfast refusal to question himself could become an issue. Odium's hatred being timeless and the fact that he is in no rush. But mostly, oh mostly, my previous Cultivation! Odium wants to avoid drawing my Culty out! Odium was damaged by a Shard or Shards before and those wounds cannot heal! GIVE ME CULTIVATION

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What will you do with it? the Stormfather asked as Dalinar entered the empty corridors. It is a weapon beyond parallel. The gift of a god. With it, you would be a Windrunner unoathed. And more. More that men do not under-stand, and cannot. Like a Herald, nearly

Rain down your lore droplets upon me SDaddy! What more do they give?!? How like a Herald? What do Heralds have other than a bond to a splinter? Answer me!

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I see what is left out in the storms, and that darkly. I am no god, Dalinar Kholin. No more than your shadow on the wall is you.

What a glorious metaphor. Simile? 

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The Stormfather had also confirmed it could work Oathgates, which might prove handy.

Cheers

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You could use the clock device Brightness Navani sent you, sir,” Rial said

He found it on an end table, and from inside it removed a leather bracer somewhat like what an archer would wear. It had two clock faces set into the top. One showed the time with three hands—even seconds, as if that mattered. The other was a stormclock, which could be set to wind down to the next projected high-storm.

 

How did they get it all so small? he wondered, shaking the device. Set into the leather, it also had a painrial—a gemstone fabrial that would take pain from him if he pressed his hand on it. Navani had been working on various forms of pain-related fabrials for use by surgeons, and had mentioned using him as a test subject.

Yes, Extesian from a few days ago, Navani will get back to making fabrials, bless her. I'm becoming increasingly curious about the extraordinary range of powers fabrials are using. 

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One man still lounged on his cushion. He wore a scruffy beard and clothing that seemed an afterthought—not dirty, but ragged, belted with rope.

Every moment in our lives seems trivial,” Zahel said. “Most are forgot-ten while some, equally humble, become the points upon which history pivots. Like white on black.”

“White… on black?” Dalinar asked.

“Figure of speech. I don’t really care what you did, Highprince. Light-eyed self-indulgence or serious sacrilege, either way it doesn’t aff ct me. But there are those who are asking how far you’re going to end up straying.

Ah my dear Vasher, my scruffy, insolent, morally vacuous plaything. I've missed you and your color-themed idioms. Oh how how i wish you'd done the dueling. 

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Dalinar growled, and by instinct reached out for that extra reserve he’d always had. The pulse of the fight, the edge.

The Thrill. Soldiers spoke of it in the quiet of the night, over campfires. That battle rage unique to the Alethi. Some called it the power of their an-cestors, others the true mindset of the soldier. It had driven the Sunmaker to glory. It was the open secret of Alethi success.

No. Dalinar stopped himself from reaching for it, but he needn’t have worried. He couldn’t remember feeling the Thrill in months—and the longer he’d been apart from it, the more he’d begun to recognize that there was something profoundly wrongabout the Thrill.

WELL. So the thrill is many centuries old at the least and was always just the Alethi. What was different compared to the other Unmade, which seem to gave only become active recently? Why was it confined to Alethkar until recently? Did it only become active during the time pig Sunmaker and if so what interest did Odium have in the fall of the Heirocracy? 

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Dalinar knew he was beaten, but couldn’t bring himself to tap out. In-stead he strained against the hold, teeth gritted and sweat pouring down the sides of his face. He became aware of something. Not the Thrill… but Stormlight in the pocket of his uniform trousers, lying beside the ring.

Aratin grunted, arms like steel. Dalinar smelled his own sweat, the rough cloth of the mat. His muscles protested the treatment.

He knew he could seize the Stormlight power, but his sense of fairness protested at the mere thought. 

Non-contact Stormlight-drawing? He's beginning to believe...

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Your definition of ‘almost’ is particularly ambitious, gemheart.

Omh I have my new sickeningly sweet name for my partner

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He’d been expecting to fight the enemy’s champion himself, assuming he could even make the contest happen to their advantage. But wouldn’t assigning the duty to some-one like Kaladin make far more sense?

Wouldn't it make far mo...YES you storming idiot, yes it would. You were planning on doing it YOURSELF? Delegate, guy.

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Highprince,’ ” Navani read as he fought, “ ‘it is with wondrous awe at the grandeur of the One that I approach you. The time for the world to undergo a glorious new experience has arrived.’ ”

“Glorious, Your Majesty?” Dalinar said, swiping at Kadash’s leg. The man dodged back. “Surely you can’t welcome these events?”

“ ‘All experience is welcome,’” came the reply. “ ‘We are the One experi-encing itself—and this new storm is glorious even if it brings pain.’ ”

...

Highprince, I will be frank. The Iriali Triumvirate is in agreement. Alethkar has not been relevant in the world since the Sunmaker’s fall. The power of the ones who control the new storm, however, is undeniable. They offer gracious terms.’ ”

...

My people,’” Navani said, reading the reply from the queen of Iri, “ ‘do not want war. Perhaps the way to prevent another Desolation is to let the Voidbringers take what they wish. From our histories, sparse though they are, it seems that this was the one option men never explored. An experience from the One we rejected.’ ”

Navani looked up, obviously as surprised to read the words as Dalinar was to hear them. The pen kept writing. “ ‘Beyond that,’ ” she added, “ ‘we have reasons to distrust the word of a thief, Highprince Kholin.’ ”

Dalinar groaned. So that was what this was all about—Adolin’s Shard-plate. Dalinar glanced at Navani. “Find out more, try to console them?”

...

Your Majesty,” Dalinar said. “I am led to believe that you would let nations fall, and men be slaughtered, because of a petty grievance from the past. If my relations with the kingdom of Rira are prompting you to con-sider supporting the enemies of all humankind, then perhaps we could discuss a personal reconciliation first.”

Hey! I love you Iriali and I adore your religion, but don't you get all fatalistic with it, you anarchist-hippie. You give One a bad name. What you gon' do when things get hairy, just leave and go to another...oh, yeah, that's exactly way you'll do. I do hope this isn't just a bargaining position...

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She says you can contact her with arrangements for the return of the stolen goods, and she’ll consider.”

“Storming woman,” Dalinar said. “She’s after Adolin’s Shardplate. How valid is her claim?”

“Not very,” Navani said. “You got that through marriage, and to a light-eyes from Rira, not Iri. Yes, the Iriali claim their sister nation as a vassal, but even if the claim weren’t disputed, the queen doesn’t have any actual relation to Evi or her brother.”

Dalinar grunted. “Rira was never strong enough to try to claim the Plate back. But if it will bring Iri to our side, then I’d consider it. Maybe I can agree to…” He trailed off. “Wait. What did you say?”

“Hum?” Navani said. “About… oh, right. You can’t hear her name.” “Say it again,” Dalinar whispered.

“What?” Navani said. “Evi?”

Memories blossomed in Dalinar’s head. He staggered, then slumped against the writing table, feeling as if he’d been struck by a hammer to the head. Navani called for physicians, implying his dueling had overtaxed him.

That wasn’t it. Instead, it was the burning in his mind, the sudden shock of a word spoken.

Evi. He could hear his wife’s name.

And he suddenly remembered her face

BOOM! I mean it had to happen for there to be flashbacks involving Evi, but daaaaam son. Why NOW? Has his bond healed him to match his own spiritual ideal of himself without that block? Is it a Bondsmith thing? Why now?

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Power?” Dalinar said. “Like this?”

He sucked in Stormlight. Murmuring rose from those watching as Dali-nar began to glow, then did… something else. Commanded the Light. When he rose, he left Kadash stuck to the ground in a pool of Radiance that held him fast, binding him to the stone. The ardent wriggled, helpless.

“The Knights Radiant have returned,” Dalinar said. “And yes, I accept the authority of the Heralds. I accept that there was a being, once, named Honor—the Almighty. He helped us, and I would welcome his help again. If you can prove to me that Vorinism as it currently stands is what the Heralds taught, we will speak again.”

Who's your Daddinar? And... better be careful there who you pledge your allegiance to big guy...

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I have spent my entire life living in a fog,” the parshman yelled at him. “Every day knowing I should say something, do something to stop this! Every night clutching my daughter, wondering why the world seems to move around us in the light—while we are trapped in shadows. They sold her mother. Sold her. Because she had birthed a healthy child, which made her good breeding stock.

“Do you understand that, human? Do you understand watching your family be torn apart, and knowing you should object—knowing deep in your soul that something is profoundly wrong? Can you know that feeling of being unable to say a single storming word to stop it?”

The parshman pulled him even closer. “They may have taken your freedom, but they took our minds.”

I...hope the Listeners win :'(

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It’s not that,” she said, speaking in a furious whisper. “I think parsh-men might be able to see me. Some, at least. And that other spren is still here too. A higher spren, like me.”

“Where?” Kaladin asked, twisting.

“He’s invisible to you,” Syl said, becoming a group of leaves and blowing around him. “I think I’ve fooled him into thinking I’m just a windspren.”

Syl, this spren must be…”

“From him,” she whispered, wrapping her arms around herself and growing small—actively shrinking to about two-thirds her normal size. “Voidspren.”

“There’s more,” Kaladin said. “These parshmen… how do they know how to talk, how to act? Yes, they’ve spent their lives around society—but to be this, well, normal after such a long time half asleep?”

“The Everstorm,” Syl said. “Power has filled the holes in their souls, bridging the gaps. They didn’t just wake, Kaladin. They’ve been healed, Connection refounded, Identity restored. There’s more to this than we ever realized. Somehow when you conquered them, you stole their ability to change forms. You literally ripped off a piece of their souls and locked it away.” She turned sharply. “He’s coming back. I will stay nearby, in case you need a Blade.”

They’re talking about making camp,” Syl whispered from nearby. She had crawled into a crack in the rock. “The Voidspren wants them to march on through the day, but I don’t think they’re going to. They’re worried about their grain spoiling.”

Syl! Here I think you're all about sex and death and you go all realmatic on me! So let me clarify... Little Yellow IS a voidspren. Some Listener forms, or maybe just voidforms, can see spren that doing want to be seen. The mechanics of creating parshmen was to rip a whole in their soul that removed their Identity and Connection! But locked it away, as in the same piece of all their souls... The Everstorm's mechanics were to fill test hole with investiture (presumably Odium's but, could it be...Cultivations?)! 

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Mmm…” he said. “Good lie.”

“Thank you.”

“Not like the other.”

“Radiant?”

“You slip in and out of her,” Pattern said, “like the sun behind clouds.”

Bless you, my favorite imaginary friend, for brightening up these Shallan chapters. Still so much Shallan. Sigh... Anyway Radiant seems to be harder for her than Veil, presumably a part of Shallan is like Veil but shallan is just not really Radiant. 

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“I like him,” Pattern said.

“Who?” Veil said.

“The swordsman,” Pattern said. “Mmm. The one you can’t mate with yet.”

“Can we please stop talking about him that way?”

“Very well,” Pattern said. “But I like him.”

“You hate his sword.”

“I have come to understand,” Pattern said, growing excited. “Humans… humans don’t care about the dead. You build chairs and doors out of corpses! You eat corpses! You make clothing from the skins of corpses. Corpses are things to you.”

“Well, I guess that’s true.” He seemed unnaturally excited by the revela-tion.

“It is grotesque,” he continued, “but you all must kill and destroy to live. It is the way of the Physical Realm. So I should not hate Adolin Kholin for wielding a corpse!”

“You just like him,” Veil said, “because he tells Radiant to respect the sword.”

“Mmm. Yes, very, very nice man. Wonderfully smart too.”

“Why don’t you marry him, then?”

Pattern buzzed. “Is that—”

“No that’s not an option.”

“Oh.” He settled down into a contented buzz on her coat, where he appeared as a strange kind of embroidery.

Pattern... did Pattern just...is Pattern in love with Adolin? Finally a ship i can embark! Adolern! Oh and I feel like this settled the little issue of using dead Shardblades. They're distasteful coz they're corpses but the spren is actually dead and bringing it into the physical realm doesn't cause it pain the scream is just an echo of the thing that caused it pain and killed it. Blade me up yo.

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About dying?” Pattern asked. “It may be the only way, Shallan. Mmm… You must speak truths to progress, but you will hate me for making it happen. So I can die, and once done you can—”

“No. No, please don’t leave me.”

“But you hate me.”

“I hate myself too,” she whispered. “Just… please. Don’t go. Don’t die.” Pattern seemed pleased by this, as his humming increased—though his sounds of pleasure and his sounds of agitation could be similar. 

Awww. Maybe you'll be happy after all little guy.

Also of interest in this part was the 3rd person limited switching from 'Shallan' to 'Veil' as soon as she got agitated.

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She made her way to the cavern’s central well: a large, round enigma that rippled with crem-free water. She’d never seen an actual well before— everyone normally used cisterns that refilled with the storms. The many wells in Urithiru, however, never ran out. The water level didn’t even drop, despite people constantly drawing from them.

Scribes talked about the possibility of a hidden aquifer in the mountains, but where would the water come from? Snows at the tops of the peaks nearby didn’t seem to melt, and rain fell very rarely.

Hmmm. Natural? Fabrials with Stormlight access? A perpendicularity? Vivenna? WHO KNOWS

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Sapphire can sometimes be distilled tallew, no natural fruit in it—just some coloring for accent. But they don’t serve the really hard stuff at lighteyed parties, except to people who know how to ask for it.

I feel like we knew that the more intoxicating colors are spirits but, well, if you don't know, now you know, Sharder.

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“I could have told you that you were wasting your time, Jor,” the bar-keep said. “This one will be out before the hour is done. Wonder what she’s trying to forget…”

“She’s just enjoying a little free time,” Jor said.

“Sure, sure. With eyes like those? I’m sure that’s it.” The barkeep moved away.

...

The mess is mine,” the barkeep said, yanking the jug back. “I’ve seen your type, with that haunted look. You’ll get yourself drunk, then pick a fight. I don’t care what it is you want to forget; go find some other place to do it.”

It seems the illusions don't hide what's behind the eyes. Windows to the soul indeed. 

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Mmmm. I thought you’d be angry. You drank the poison on purpose, didn’t you?”

“Yes, but the point wasn’t to get drunk.”

He buzzed in confusion. “Then why drink it?”

“It’s complicated,” Shallan said. She sighed. “I didn’t do a very good job in there.”

“Of getting drunk? Mmm. You gave it a good effort.”

“As soon as I got drunk, as soon as I lost control, Veil slipped away from me.”

“Veil is just a face.”

Pattern with the buuuurrrrn. Oh and I find that last line very intriguing. Many of us felt sure that this was all proof that she can basically change other people's souls (Gaz etc) and could do it to herself at whim, switching back and forth having sort of rewritten herself like a soul stamp might do. This sounds like Pattern is saying that her illusion is only that, that she's letting herself change her personality through belief/ psychology rather than there being anything magical. Very intriguing. 

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My brothers. Pattern, I didn’t kill them, right?”

“What?” he said.

“I talked to Balat over spanreed,” Shallan said, hand to her forehead. “But… I had Lightweaving then… even if I didn’t fully know it. I could have fabricated that. Every message from him. My own memories…”

“Shallan,” Pattern said, sounding concerned. “No. They live. Your brothers live. Mraize said he rescued them. They are on their way here. This isn’t the lie.” His voice grew smaller. “Can’t you tell?”

She adopted Veil again, her pain fading. “Yes. Of course I can tell.” She started forward again.

“Shallan,” Pattern said. “This is… mmm… there is something wrong with these lies you place upon yourself. I don’t understand it.”

“I just need to go deeper,” she whispered. “I can’t be Veil only on the surface.”

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She came to a rest, blinking as the large man sat on the chair. She felt she could hear its soul groaning in protest.

Could she Brandon? Could she? Or are you trolling us.

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What is this?” he asked, sounding amused. “You put on an act, being tough? I have seen men pretend—”

Veil rammed the knife down through her hand, through his, and into the tabletop. The Horneater screamed, whipping his hand upward, mak-ing Veil pull the knife out of both hands. The man toppled out of his chair as he scrambled away from her.

Veil settled down in it again. She took the cloth from her pocket and wrapped it around her bleeding hand. That would obscure the cut when she healed it.

Which she didn’t do at first. It would need to be seen bleeding. Instead—a part of her surprised at how calm she remained—she retrieved her knife, which had fallen beside the table.

Rust and Ruin woman! Oh you just got coooooool. 

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Strangest thing, that he’d come back and kill a barmaid the next night. Left her body right around the corner from where he killed poor Rem.”

“He screamed the whole time we were taking him to his fall that he hadn’t killed the second one,” Ur muttered.

“He did,” Betha said. “That barmaid was strangled the exact same way as Rem, body dropped in the same position. Even had the marks of his ring scraping her chin like Rem did.” Her light brown eyes had a hollow cast to them, like she was staring at the body again, as it had been found. “Exact same marks. Uncanny.”

Another double murder, Veil thought. Storms. What does it mean

Well it may well mean adolin wasn't specifically targeted as part of the copycat killing. 

Wow, I...that was longer than i thought. So so many good quotes. I shall say no more. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Extesian said:

The absolutely best emote to describe this part.

[kari-no-sugata]

A little thing I noticed:

Quote

She hovered just inside it, contemplating her next move. Her hand throbbed, but she ignored it. Dead end. Perhaps she’d been foolish to think she could solve in a few hours what Adolin had spent weeks trying to crack.

Has it really been "weeks" already? I don't remember the Highstorms re-starting yet for example. If I remember things correctly, they got to Urithiru in the middle of the Weeping (which is 4 weeks or 20 days) and Sadeas was killed after about 5 days. So from there it should be one week to the end of the Weeping.

That being said, with everything that has been build already it does feel like there has been quite a bit of time passing. The exact passage of time does feel rather vague though.

 

On different note:

 

Quote

 

Stormfather, Veil thought. So it was a dead end? “But I heard that the murder was strange.”

“No,” the standing man said, then settled back down beside Betha, knife out. He set it on the table, in front of them. “We knew Ned would go too far at some point. Everyone did. I don’t think any of us was surprised when, after she tried to drag him away from the tavern that night, he finally went over the edge.”

Literally, Shallan thought. At least once Ur got hold of him.

“It appears,” Veil said, standing up, “that I have wasted your time. I will leave spheres with the barkeep; your tab is my debt, tonight.” She spared a glance for Ur, who hunched nearby and regarded her with a sullen expression. She waved her bloodied fingers at him, then made her way back toward the main tent room of the tavern.

Notice that Shallan tossed in a joke despite being quite deep into Veil. Earlier on just one drink of alcohol was enough to knock her out of Veil - there's still some way to go before Shallan can reliably and deeply become these personas.

 

[soyperson]

So I suppose we'll be getting Dalinar/Evi flashbacks soon? Also, since he's remembering Evi (assuming that forgetting her was his boon), will whatever the bane was wear off too? Or vice versa? Or perhaps this is something more sinister.

[Pagerunner]

5 hours ago, Pattern said:

Odium has been wounded before with scars that don't heal. He also has been refered to as The Broken One. What is his current state as a Shard? Damaged badly near to be spintered? We will see...

Great observation! I've long wondered about why he was called that; this line may be a hint.

[Stark]

15 hours ago, Lazarus52980 said:

Am I the only person who thinks "training" the Parshmen is going to end up backfiring at least to some extent?  I think of it like in the WoT where the Circle is taught to "have a backbone" only to have that very backbone cause problems to the main characters.

You're not wrong, if Kaladin does it wrong.  But Kaladin is not a hypocritical idiot like Nynaeve often was.  Also, his start - surrendering to them, then teaching them fire, is far more nurturing and less aggressive than just yelling at them to stand up for themselves.  He is helping, rather than commanding.  Directing while submitting rather than seizing and forcing.

 

Man, except for being a dude, Kaladin sounds like he would be far better at channeling Saidar than Nynaeve ever was at the beginning.  Maybe because Syl is female, she would give him an in?  Male/Female radiant-spren pairings getting auto channeling circle pairs?

[Salkara]

11 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I just realized something. I missed a few pages of conversation, but nobody mentioned it that I saw.

The shin shamans have "ways" of recovering honorblades.

 

I mentioned this a couple pages back. 10:1 it won't be there when Dalinar wants to use it.

11 hours ago, Dahak said:

He thought they'd come and fetch it. And they do have two Honorblades that provide Transportation. Plus an Oathgate. That they could use said blades to unlock both ends of.

They also have Honorblades with Illumination, so... You could have disguised Shin teleporting around Urithiru.

10 hours ago, maxal said:

Yes he will. He will agree he needs to give away his Plate to help further his father's plans. And no it will not create any turmoil into him because Adolin just takes in everything. It will not bother him one minute.

I'm not so sure. If the request came back in WoR, it would be a request from a highprince to his son. Now, it would be a request from a foreign monarch to an Alethi highprince. I think that changes the calculus significantly.

Also, Elhokar stipulated that Dalinar isn't to give orders to Alethi highprinces. The orders go to Elhokar for delegation, and I can see Elhokar saying, "WTFudge? No. Alethkar will not be giving a set of Plate to Iri. It's ours. Come up with a better order, Uncle."

8 hours ago, Ansalem said:

It's obviously both. I don't think there's anything that says the boon and curse can't be the same thing.

In Dalinar's case, I think they have to be separate. At least one was about forgetting something. If his boon and curse were both to forget Evi, wouldn't he have a hard time remembering them as being distinct? Yet, in TWoK, he mentions a couple times that he knows what his boon and his curse were.

I have a sneaky suspicion that we only know one of his "gifts" from the Nightwatcher.

[Mistbornwithakitty]

*Sips tea*  Well hello, I actually finished these chapters early enough to be part of the conversation.  Yayy!  Just going to put it out there, these weekly installments have been ruining my storming life.  Who knew three chapters per week could deliver so much emotional trauma?  Dalinar and Navani getting married made me squeal at 3am and lets not even talk about Kaladin reuniting with his parents.  That about made me cry, no joke. 

This week's chapters were packed with info, in my opinion.  Foreshadowing about Shallan getting lost in her lies (I spy Adolin/Shallan trouble eventually) and trying to become someone else a little too effectively.  Kaladin maybe having sympathy for the enemy also might change things......who knows?  The little Parshman girl was adorable though, it really made me feel for them. 

But the biggest news, WE NOW KNOW THE NAME OF SHSHSHSHSHSHSHHH!   That just about slapped me in the face, did not expect that to happen in the beginning of the book (I kind of guessed it'd be the big reveal at the end or something, or what Dalinar's flashbacks were leading up to).  I'm reeling at what caused the sudden change, why did he remember now?  There didn't seem to be much of a reason?  I hope Mr. Sanderson enlightens us next week! I cannot wait.     

[Stark]

By my count, on Radiant progression, Shallan is at level four.  Universal ideals, I am terrified, I am a murderer, I killed my mother are her four truths so far.  Which means she has one truth left to admit to herself, right?

 

If that is the case, and we know that she is more advanced than Kaladin who is on his third oath, so it tracks - I think I have an idea for what her final truth will be.

 

Some shorter, more elegant version of: "All of the personalities I create are not lies, they are not separate from me. Shallan, Veil, Radiant.  They are all me, and I am all of them."

 

Pattern does seem to be subtly pushing her towards that, as he did with the truth about the sword.  As Syl, and far less subtly, Wyndle, have done with their Radiants.  She will have to acknowledge that she is all of them, and can be and do what they can all do.

 

That's my thought anyhow.

 

Different topic! @Mistbornwithakitty - The Name of SHSHSHSHSHSH.  I don't know if you read the collection of Dalinar flashbacks titled The Thrill that were released as a short story in that collection last year?  If not, spoilers below.

Spoiler

I am pretty sure the next flashback we get will be when Dalinar meets Evi, and she is named.  My biggest confusion from reading those was why Dalinar could see her and hear her name in the flashbacks.  Now we know, its coming back in the present.  My thoughts are that the flashback reveal will be to do with the other gaps in his memory, like why his ardent buddy stopped being a soldier.  I think is boon was to become someone who could honor Gavilar's wishes, someone who could be better and follow the codes, who could be more than a monster, and that was accomplished by the Nightmother editing some of his more atrocious acts in his memory.  I think that allowed him to see himself as a mildly better person, to make himself a much better person to honor his brother's wishes post assassination.  I think the curse was to lose his memory of his wife.  And I think his radiant bond is allowing him to heal those gaps, like Lopen's arm, as he does not see himself as someone who forgets, and both will come back.

 

[kari-no-sugata]

3 minutes ago, Stark said:

By my count, on Radiant progression, Shallan is at level four.  Universal ideals, I am terrified, I am a murderer, I killed my mother are her four truths so far.  Which means she has one truth left to admit to herself, right?

If that is the case, and we know that she is more advanced than Kaladin who is on his third oath, so it tracks - I think I have an idea for what her final truth will be.

Some shorter, more elegant version of: "All of the personalities I create are not lies, they are not separate from me. Shallan, Veil, Radiant.  They are all me, and I am all of them."

Pattern does seem to be subtly pushing her towards that, as he did with the truth about the sword.  As Syl, and far less subtly, Wyndle, have done with their Radiants.  She will have to acknowledge that she is all of them, and can be and do what they can all do.

That's my thought anyhow.

Yes, Shallan should have one Truth to go if we understood Brandon correctly. She might need it to confront the copy-cat murderer.

Pattern says:

 

Quote

 

“About dying?” Pattern asked. “It may be the only way, Shallan. Mmm… You must speak truths to progress, but you will hate me for making it happen. So I can die, and once done you can—”

 

I think it has to be something really deeply buried within her. I don't think this Truth could be something that occurs since the start of her story in tWoK.

I've posted some very highly speculative ideas on her final Truth.

 

[Mistbornwithakitty]

4 minutes ago, Stark said:

Different topic! @Mistbornwithakitty - The Name of SHSHSHSHSHSH.  I don't know if you read the collection of Dalinar flashbacks titled The Thrill that were released as a short story in that collection last year?  If not, spoilers below.

  Reveal hidden contents

I am pretty sure the next flashback we get will be when Dalinar meets Evi, and she is named.  My biggest confusion from reading those was why Dalinar could see her and hear her name in the flashbacks.  Now we know, its coming back in the present.  My thoughts are that the flashback reveal will be to do with the other gaps in his memory, like why his ardent buddy stopped being a soldier.  I think is boon was to become someone who could honor Gavilar's wishes, someone who could be better and follow the codes, who could be more than a monster, and that was accomplished by the Nightmother editing some of his more atrocious acts in his memory.  I think that allowed him to see himself as a mildly better person, to make himself a much better person to honor his brother's wishes post assassination.  I think the curse was to lose his memory of his wife.  And I think his radiant bond is allowing him to heal those gaps, like Lopen's arm, as he does not see himself as someone who forgets, and both will come back.

 

Oh boy, no I did not (I've been rather uninvolved in the Cosmere for awhile, life stuff)!  I didn't even know it existed, so this is all new news to me.  Thanks for the heads up, I read the spoiler anyway.  Good thoughts!  I see your point, as I read the flashbacks I'm noticing what a brute he is.....I don't think it would be such a stretch to assume that he asked for some sort of calmer head or wisdom to help his kingdom.  Maybe now that Dalinar is becoming a ruler of sorts himself and no longer being Elhokar's (soz if I spelled the name wrong eek) right hand man, the curse is being undone?  If so, does that mean whatever wish was granted will vanish as well?  Interesting stuff.... 

[Pattern]

15 minutes ago, Stark said:

By my count, on Radiant progression, Shallan is at level four.  Universal ideals, I am terrified, I am a murderer, I killed my mother are her four truths so far.  Which means she has one truth left to admit to herself, right?

I am not sure whether "I am terrified" counts as a truth raising her radiant level. It was a very temporary truth just used to enter Shadesmar once. Her last said truth "I killed my mother" enabled Pattern to appear as a sprenblade, effectively establishing the same level Kaladin is on with Syl and his third Oath.

Shallan could have progressed even further during her childhood but her denying has thrown her back.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Pattern

[Emerald101]

6 minutes ago, Pattern said:

I am not sure whether "I am terrified" counts as a truth raising her radiant level. It was a very temporary truth just used to enter Shadesmar once. Her last said truth "I killed my mother" enabled Pattern to appear as a sprenblade, effectively establishing the same level Kaladin is on with Syl and his third Oath.

WoB tells us that Shallan is one level ahead of Kaladin at the end of WoR. Not all orders get shardblades at the same level.

Quote

TGANCHERO

How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

BRANDON SANDERSON

There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan is a step higher than Kaladin.

(Source)

Edited October 4, 2017 by Emerald101

[vividox]

The more and more I think on this, I think Dalinar's curse lifting has more to do with his use of Stormlight than marrying Navani.

Before Oathbringer, Dalinar never used Stormlight. We know Dalinar has been sneaking down to the Honorblade room to train with the Stomrfather, and we know that includes learning how to draw Stormlight because the end of the duel is the first time we actually see Dalinar use Stormlight on screen. Navani then casually mentions Evi's name again, and, unlike all the other times, he can actually understand it. It seems to me like the motivating factor here is that Dalinar has simply learned to use Stormlight since the last time anyone mentioned her around him. We've already seen multiple ways Stormlight can heal you, and healing a curse seems to fit. We know the Old Magic has to be some sort of investiture, which means it's capable of interacting with Stormlight, so... yeah, I am really talking myself into thinking it's Stormlight and not the curse changing its focus from Evi to Navani based on the technicality of marriage.

Also also, if the curse's technicality was that he couldn't remember his wife, but could remember his ex-wife, then why couldn't he remember Evi after she died? 

Edited October 4, 2017 by vividox

[StormingTexan]

2 minutes ago, vividox said:

The more and more I think on this, I think Dalinar's curse lifting has more to do with his use of Stormlight than marrying Navani.

Before Oathbringer, Dalinar never used Stormlight. We know Dalinar has been sneaking down to the Honorblade room to train with the Stomrfather, and we know that includes learning how to draw Stormlight because the end of the duel is the first time we actually see Dalinar use Stormlight on screen. Navani then casually mentions Evi's name again, and, unlike all the other times, he can actually understand it. It seems to me like the motivating factor here is that Dalinar has simply learned to use Stormlight since the last time anyone mentioned her around him. We've already seen multiple ways Stormlight can heal you, and healing a curse seems to fit. We know the Old Magic has to be some sort of investiture, with means it's capable of interacting with Stormlight, so... yeah, I am really talking myself into thinking it's Stormlight and not the curse changing its focus from Evi to Navani based on the technicality of marriage. 

This was my first reaction as well but then how do we explain Lift. 

[Darvys]

24 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

  Quote

TGANCHERO

How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

BRANDON SANDERSON

There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan is a step higher than Kaladin.

This always felt off, is it confirmed in another WoB that the orders have 5 oaths each ? If so, it was an odd choice of formulation, just Brandon being mysterious by reflex ?

[ScavellTane]

2 minutes ago, Darvys said:

This always felt off, is it confirmed in another WoB that the orders have 5 oaths each ? If so, it was an odd choice of formulation, just Brandon being mysterious by reflex ?

I think it was mentioned in the books.

Does anyone know what is Shallans second truth?

1. life before death

2.??

3.Killed father

4.Killed mother