[OB] Oathbringer chapters 16-18

[kari-no-sugata]

When Shallan is doing Soulcasting etc in tWoK she is talking to Cryptics who are not Pattern. Shallan had a Shardblade so she was already high level enough for such things but she had shut out Pattern, almost killing him. I'd guess that the Cryptics were trying to "reboot" her link to Pattern by trying to get her to use stormlight. So I'd say that the "truths" she spoke in tWoK did not count as "advancement" but did start to restore her link to Pattern.

 

PS I posted some general thoughts on Shallan here:

 

[Darvys]

@Mulk If things were worse for the whole household i figure we would have seen signs of it during her flashback, those should be safe from Shallan's tampering with her memories. So whatever caused her to crack i believe involved her alone (among the children at any rate). 

I'm going to take a shot at understanding Shallan's oath situation, Kaladin's experience isn't helpful as he didn't so much regress as run headfirst into a wall by making two contradictory promises. Still, If we assume that Shallan hiding behind her lies did to Pattern what Kal's idiocy did to Syl, then as Syl herself said the only way to save the bond would have been to speak further oaths/truths. But in a Lightweaver's case, to be able to progress, you'd first need to reach the same level of self-awareness you possessed before regressing, and that's what Shallan has been doing for the first two books and into the third, she isn't even one step closer to being a full Radiant than she was at eleven (?). If this theory is true, then none of the truths she spoke to date count as an oath. This could perhaps help explain why Pattern came back an idiot where Syl retained all her memories.

On the other hand, it could be that Lightweavers are not limited in the number of truths they can speak, this wouldn't contradict the WoB quoted earlier as there would be an upper limit, but it would simply be different for each individual lightweaver, as the more they are hiding from themselves, the more truths they would need to admit to reach true self-awareness and with it knighthood.

 

[maxal she/her]

18 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

I do agree it’s a little frustrating the murder seems like it’s taken a back seat especially considering how dramatic that moment was at the end of WoR. I think after all these years it’s just a little anticlimactic that no one seems to have a sense of eurgency about it.

Of course we are also seeing the story from the POV of a bunch of people that let’s be honest have little reason to care that Sadeas is dead. Dalinar seems to care the most and Sadeas tried to see him dead. They also have a few other things going on. Then you add the copycat murder that makes his death look more like a serial killer than a targeted attack by one of his foes (really wondering where Brandon is going with this btw). I do get the frustration though. As said above though we really just getting things going and Brandon has earned my bennifit of the doubt to blow me away with the resolution. One way or another I have confidence it’s not just going to go away. 

I don't think we are dealing with an issue of trust into the author, but an issue of readers having over-emphasize a given plot arc. I, like many others, did think the downfall from murdering Sadeas would be a more important story arc. While I never expected it to be the major focus, I expected to read the reaction from the Highprinces, from Ialai. I did not expect nobody to care and to have a lengthy investigation happening only because of a copycat murderer not even linked to Sadeas's death.

I also did not expect Dalinar's story arc to focus solely onto his political relationships, Navani and the Ardentia. I expected more family oriented conflicts (which I find more interesting than Dalinar trying to coerce yet another monarch to follow his lead). Agree, all which has been written out is necessary, but I feel the wedding with Navani, the downfall with Kadash, it takes precedence over the internal Alethi politics which I certainly do not consider a done deal. I don't like not having read anything from Ialai yet, not even a reaction.

Thus to me, it feels very anti-climatic and my gut feeling is it feels this way because I, as a reader, expected many other things to happen. Mind, I never thought everything I predicted would happen, but I expected something to happen with respect to the murder and while readers may argue something is happening, I find this something disappointingly anti-climatic and a.. tad boring.

@DSC01: I know things are happening, but I feel all characters arcs are too disconnected. There aren't enough interactions in between them and they have all been steered within independent directions. I was hoping for family conflicts with the Kholins: I am disappointed Brandon has basically removed all source of conflict and tension from the family to focus on conflicts being external to them. It makes the story less engaging, to me and very anti-climatic given how WoR ended.

[Pattern he/him]

18 minutes ago, maxal said:

I, like many others, did think the downfall from murdering Sadeas would be a more important story arc.

It's only chapter 18. As you might remember, I would be satisfied if that's all we read about Sadeas' murder. But i am fairly certain we are not done there yet. I have a gut feeling that you will get what you desire. Give it some time, the feeding of three chapters a week is painful for most of us.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

21 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Give it some time, the feeding of three chapters a week is painful for most of us.

It is almost bad enough to beg for Sanderson to either not do pre-release chapters or release them all at once next time. This 3 a week thing has been really rough. I don't know if I can do it 7 more times.

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 minute ago, CaptainRyan said:

It is almost bad enough to beg for Sanderson to either not do pre-release chapters or release them all at once next time. This 3 a week thing has been really rough. I don't know if I can do it 7 more times.

hey. if youre struggling, there were 2 dragonsteel chapters released. I have a thread about it in Cosmere. Im currently coming up with all sorts of theories that wont be confirmed for 20 years.

[kari-no-sugata]

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

@Mulk If things were worse for the whole household i figure we would have seen signs of it during her flashback, those should be safe from Shallan's tampering with her memories. So whatever caused her to crack i believe involved her alone (among the children at any rate). 

I'm going to take a shot at understanding Shallan's oath situation, Kaladin's experience isn't helpful as he didn't so much regress as run headfirst into a wall by making two contradictory promises. Still, If we assume that Shallan hiding behind her lies did to Pattern what Kal's idiocy did to Syl, then as Syl herself said the only way to save the bond would have been to speak further oaths/truths. But in a Lightweaver's case, to be able to progress, you'd first need to reach the same level of self-awareness you possessed before regressing, and that's what Shallan has been doing for the first two books and into the third, she isn't even one step closer to being a full Radiant than she was at eleven (?). If this theory is true, then none of the truths she spoke to date count as an oath. This could perhaps help explain why Pattern came back an idiot where Syl retained all her memories.

On the other hand, it could be that Lightweavers are not limited in the number of truths they can speak, this wouldn't contradict the WoB quoted earlier as there would be an upper limit, but it would simply be different for each individual lightweaver, as the more they are hiding from themselves, the more truths they would need to admit to reach true self-awareness and with it knighthood.

As far as I remember, there's no WoB that contradicts the idea that different Orders or even different members of the same Order could have a different number of Oaths/Truths to reach maximum level. It does seem particularly likely with the Lightweavers - it somewhat strains belief that they'd all have a conveniently consistent number of Truths to tell.

Regarding Shallan, Brandon did say she went up a level at the end of WoR but yeah it's possible she's simply gotten back to where she used to be at age 11 in terms of her Nahel bond strength. However, I don't think that it means that none of her new Truths count - we know that the one at the end of WoR counts as a Truth because she can't forget it.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

6 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

hey. if youre struggling, there were 2 dragonsteel chapters released. I have a thread about it in Cosmere. Im currently coming up with all sorts of theories that wont be confirmed for 20 years.

Whoa!? Two? I know I read one of them but I need to double check that I read both.

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 minute ago, CaptainRyan said:

Whoa!? Two? I know I read one of them but I need to double check that I read both.

another one came out today. We now know what Dragonsteel is, leading to fascinating questions like: What would happen if a mistborn burned Dragonsteel?

That would so be an instant RAFO LOL

Edited October 4, 2017 by Steeldancer

[maxal she/her]

37 minutes ago, Pattern said:

It's only chapter 18. As you might remember, I would be satisfied if that's all we read about Sadeas' murder. But i am fairly certain we are not done there yet. I have a gut feeling that you will get what you desire. Give it some time, the feeding of three chapters a week is painful for most of us.

Yeah, but it may be you were right and I was wrong... I am thinking it was a Red Herring: a story arc some readers, such as myself, took out of proportion because we found it interesting. While chapter 18 is not far off into the book, I have to say a tendency has been written already: Dalinar's story arc will not involve either of his sons and this is a shame. I was hoping, with the book focusing on Dalinar, it would also focus on his sons (both of them, not just Adolin).

And yeah, maybe I am just impatient. I mean, maybe next week I'll say something else entirely, but it's been two, three weeks now where I have felt this particular arc was going nowhere. Well, not nowhere, but it isn't going towards internal Kholin family conflict which I really wanted to read.

I also really want the characters to stop doing their stuff on their own and ignore the fact there are other characters. I mean, Dalinar, of all people, should have interactions with his sons. He's always just with Navani. I am tired of him doing his thing in his corner while his sons do I don't know what in their corners and now Shallan does her thing within her own corner.... Speak people!

[Steeldancer he/him]

Just now, maxal said:

Yeah, but it may be you were right and I was wrong... I am thinking it was a Red Herring: a story arc some readers, such as myself, took out of proportion because we found it interesting. While chapter 18 is not far off into the book, I have to say a tendency has been written already: Dalinar's story arc will not involve either of his sons and this is a shame. I was hoping, with the book focusing on Dalinar, it would also focus on his sons (both of them, not just Adolin).

And yeah, maybe I am just impatient. I mean, maybe next week I'll say something else entirely, but it's been two, three weeks now where I have felt this particular arc was going nowhere. Well, not nowhere, but it isn't going towards internal Kholin family conflict which I really wanted to read.

I also really want the characters to stop doing their stuff on their own and ignore the fact there are other characters. I mean, Dalinar, of all people, should have interactions with his sons. He's always just with Navani. I am tired of him doing his thing in his corner while his sons do I don't know what in their corners and now Shallan does her thing within her own corner.... Speak people!

Maybe the Kholins are playing a big game of Four Corners.

[maxal she/her]

Just now, Steeldancer said:

Maybe the Kholins are playing a big game of Four Corners.

It can't be, there are five of them 

[Steeldancer he/him]

Just now, maxal said:

It can't be, there are five of them 

Im not counting Renarin. Hes in a closet.

[maxal she/her]

1 minute ago, Steeldancer said:

Im not counting Renarin. Hes in a closet.

 OMG. I can't believe you've just said this. Funniest comment ever.

Edit: When he is coming of it? 

Edited October 4, 2017 by maxal

[Farnsworth]

Quote

Joyspren followed her like blue leaves as she returned, giving Kaladin a wide berth.

Poor Kaladin. 

[yulerule]

22 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

another one came out today. We now know what Dragonsteel is, leading to fascinating questions like: What would happen if a mistborn burned Dragonsteel?

That would so be an instant RAFO LOL

I see the one that came out just now. Where'd the older one?

[Steeldancer he/him]

2 minutes ago, yulerule said:

I see the one that came out just now. Where'd the older one?

I have a topic with all the different ones out so far. It should all be under Way of King deleted scenes.

[AbsentKeeper he/him]

Personally, I am absolutely loving the sample releases! Both in terms of the content and the timing.

I was mentally prepared to reread old Cosmere books over and over for months, so this is heaven. 

On the topic of these chapters specifically, I think these are my favorites so far from the samples.

Did anyone else notice there are quite a few incorrectly hyphenated words? Honest formatting error, or obscure hidden message? 

Chapter specific thoughts I didn't see a lot of people talking about already below:

Chapter 16:

-The Stormfather tells Dalinar that Honorblades don't have the mind to scream on their own, and that Shardplate is related but different. Hmmm... I need to think about this one.

-What is going to happen to the Honorblade in the pipe if Navani gets the sewage system working again?

-I like Dalinar's new steampunk leather fabrial cuff.

-Kadash's line "You were much, much better at the killing part", feels very ominous to me.

-When I first read the Iriali (and others last week) negotiating with the Voidbringers, I was surprised, but after reading the Kaladin chapter I'm much more hesitant...

Chapter 17

- What Listener form could this possibly be? Is it just dullform with the blocks removed or something new? 

-The confirmation that the yellow spren is a voidspren makes me very concerned about alerter fabrials.

Chapter 18

- I'm happy that Shallan is finally making progress with sounds and Lightweaving without a drawing, but...

-This chapter brought me down firmly on the side of Shallan's illusions being an unheathy coping mechanism that she needs to address.

-Pattern is the only spren so far who seems to have come to grips with people using Shardblades, I wonder if there are others that will get used to the idea, or if Pattern is just more understanding.

-Also, Pattern is the funniest part of these books, still.

-A large market is already popping up in Urithiru, does this mean it's going to keep a large non-radiant population, even after the current disasters?

-Finally! More information about Rosharan wine! Come on, I can't be the only one that really wanted to know.

-"Sure, sure. With eyes like those?" I definitely feel like this is more than just a 'sad eyes at the bar' moment. I don't know what yet though.

-the Ghostbloods don't strike me as the type that like having their name flashed around.

-I feel like (mostly joking) Shallan might end up an alcoholic.

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by Cowmanthethird
Made the last bit less harsh, because I like Shallan

[+robardin he/him]

4 hours ago, The Invested Beard said:

Guys, Jimi Hendrix was an Iriali world hopper.

Nah, with lyrics like these, he must have been from Nalthis, possibly even someone who declined to be Returned. Just ask the Axis.

Quote

My red is so confident that he flashes trophies of war,
And ribbons of euphoria
Orange is young, full of daring,
But very unsteady for the first go round
My yellow in this case is not so mellow,
In fact I'm trying to say it's frightened, like me
And all these emotions of mine keep holding me back
From giving my life to a rainbow like you

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by robardin

[maxal she/her]

2 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

-I feel like (joking not joking) Shallan might end up an alcoholic.

I sincerely, honestly hope not. Shallan has enough to deal with as it is, no need to add this on top of it. 

[SirWerebear]

The Stormfather implied that it was a good thing Dalinar forgot what he forgot. Maybe Odium is repairing his memory in order to break him.

Apologies if anyone suggested it, I might have missed it.

[The Invested Beard]

38 minutes ago, robardin said:

Nah, with lyrics like these, he must have been from Nalthis, possibly even someone who declined to be Returned. Just ask the Axis.

 

You make a good point. Theory modified to Nalthis native who converted to the Iriali religion while worldhopping to Roshar.

[AbsentKeeper he/him]

37 minutes ago, maxal said:

I sincerely, honestly hope not. Shallan has enough to deal with as it is, no need to add this on top of it. 

I sincerely hope she doesn't either, Shallan and Pattern are my favorite characters. 

She does take that bottle of horneater white with with her though, and I can't imagine the ability to become sober on a whim would be good for your mentality about alcohol (Wayne has this a little bit too, I think)

I've actually seen other people mention how much wine she drinks before, now that I think about it 

[maxal she/her]

7 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

I sincerely hope she doesn't either, Shallan and Pattern are my favorite characters. 

She does take that bottle of horneater white with with her though, and I can't imagine the ability to become sober on a whim would be good for your mentality about alcohol (Wayne has this a little bit too, I think)

I've actually seen other people mention how much wine she drinks before, now that I think about it 

She never really took much wine before... I never understood this argument. My understanding of her scenes in OB is she was trying to play a role, to convey an attitude and it demanded she played tough, so she drank. I may be wrong, but I'll stick to this interpretation for a while.

[AbsentKeeper he/him]

9 minutes ago, maxal said:

She never really took much wine before... I never understood this argument. My understanding of her scenes in OB is she was trying to play a role, to convey an attitude and it demanded she played tough, so she drank. I may be wrong, but I'll stick to this interpretation for a while.

I think that idea was always more of a joke than anything serious, because people are always pouring her wine, and then it's never mentioned again, or if it is mentioned, she gulps it down all at once (in the scene where she poisons her father, when she is studying in bed, and when her and Adoulin are at the Highstorm winehouse) It's probably coincidence, but I think its funny.

I never really thought there was anything to it, and I was mostly joking above (edited my comment to reflect that), but I do think she drinks more than most, especially since our other viewpoint characters avoid it for various reasons (the Kholins have the codes of war, Kaladin doesn't like bars, ECT)

Edited October 5, 2017 by Cowmanthethird