[OB] Oathbringer chapters 16-18

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Darvys said:

I don't see how this relates to what you quoted, can you clarify ?

What I mean is that is important to distinguish between physical dependence, as in your body's cells literally can't work without the substance, and psychological dependence.

It is easy to treat the physical addiction with pharmaceuticals under strict medical supervision, but the psychological dependence remains.

Quote

Psychological dependence is a dependency of the mind, and leads to psychological withdrawal symptoms (such as cravings, irritability, insomnia, depression, anorexia etc). Addiction can in theory be derived from any rewarding behavior, and is believed to be strongly associated with particular areas of the brain’s reward system.

A dependency of the mind involves a mental association with how a particular behavior is rewarded.

Just because you're out of harms way in the physical department, doesn't mean that your addiction is gone. And yes, even psychological addictions have severe withdrawal symptoms as outlined above.

---

42 minutes ago, Pattern said:

The thing is, if a surgebinder wants to get rid of an addiction, he can use Stormlight to heal himself. It does not only heal poisoning and physical damage but also psychological wounds. It's all about perception. If a surgebinder views himself as with no alcohol problem, he will have none.

Do we have a confirmation for that? Psychological wounds are most definitely not comparable to physical damage. Since the Stormlight healing seems to be based on the Surge of Progression, or more specifically of the Regrowth part of that. Yes, Regrowth can heal a soul and regrow the connection between a soul and it's body, but addiction is not a wound in itself, but a rewiring. I don't think, that Regrowth would help with that, since there is nothing to "regrow".

I know of the effect of Cognitive Identity on Stormlight healing, but, once again, I don't think that, that applies to psychological disorders.

42 minutes ago, Pattern said:

A relapse would be meaningless, too, if there were no health consequences to an addiction. This of course leaves out cases where an addiction takes more and more time, like the urge to discuss things on a forum, or to have a look at your smartphone as soon as it beeps.

Wrong. There are severe psychological withdrawal symptoms, like insomnia, irritability, depression, lack of motivation etc. etc. There most certainly would be health consequences.

I agree, I don't know if Shallan will become addicted to an addictive substance, but it does raise an interesting question, which I just wanted to discuss.

Can a Surgebinder even get addicted to something? And I think, yes. They can.

But what would be really interesting is: Will Veil get addicted to alcohol? And what would happen with Shallan in that case?

Edited October 5, 2017 by SLNC

[Darvys]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Just because you're out of harms way in the physical department, doesn't mean that your addiction is gone. And yes, even psychological addictions have severe withdrawal symptoms as outlined above.

I never said it would be gone, i said it would be irrelevant, harmless save for what i pointed out.

11 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Do we have a confirmation for that? Psychological wounds are most definitely not comparable to physical damage. Since the Stormlight healing seems to be based on the Surge of Progression, or more specifically of the Regrowth part of that. Yes, Regrowth can heal a soul and regrow the connection between a soul and it's body, but addiction is not a wound in itself, but a rewiring. I don't think, that Regrowth would help with that, since there is nothing to "regrow".

I know of the effect of Cognitive Identity on Stormlight healing, but, once again, I don't think that, that applies to psychological disorders.

Wrong. There are severe psychological withdrawal symptoms, like insomnia, irritability, depression etc. etc. There most certainly would be health consequences.

We already have fabrials shutting down pain signals i don't think it's much of a stretch to assume stormlight can "rewire" you if you accept that your brain function is not as it should be. After all, it would only be part of an organ that's "damaged" and needs fixing.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Darvys said:

I never said it would be gone, i said it would be irrelevant, harmless save for what i pointed out.

We already have fabrials shutting down pain signals i don't think it's much of a stretch to assume stormlight can "rewire" you if you accept that your brain function is not as it should be. After all, it would only be part of an organ that's "damaged" and needs fixing.

I wouldn't call insomnia, irritability, depression etc. harmless, but whatever.

The painrials don't work on the same principle as Stormlight healing. They are diminisher fabrials, they take away and do not give like Regrowth does.. And, also, while there are fabrials, that can recreate Surge manipulation, not everything a fabrial does must necessarily be equal to what Surges can do.

Edited October 5, 2017 by SLNC

[Pattern he/him]

27 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I wouldn't call insomnia, irritability, depression etc. harmless, but whatever.

I don't want to talk away the severity of psychological withdrawing symptoms.

The thing is, what reason is there to stop an addiction if it has no negative health consequences? (I am not saying there are no possible other consequences). Avoid the withdrawal in taking more of the substance. If it does not harm you, so why stop it?

Of course then you have to provide a constant influx of that substance which can lead to locistical and economical problems. This in itself is reason enough not to get addicted in the first place.

On the other hand, e.g. a diabetic who has to take insulin is also dependent on it. Withdrawal results in death sooner or later. The financial and logistic problems can be and are solved all the time, so could be the satisfaction of a rather unnecessary substance addiction - if it were neutral to your health.

53 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Can a Surgebinder even get addicted to something? And I think, yes. They can.

I also think they can. Just not to substances whose effects are healed away more sooner than later. The reward system won't be stimulated by that in a significant way. Admittedly, the Radiant could choose not to heal the poisoning at all. Then he/she would be subject to the consequences, until he/she decides to let the Stormlight heal it.
I think - but have to look up later - that Investiture healing is able to heal mental illnesses - if they are perceived as such. Heck, Hoid could grow back his head if it were cut off (or his body from the head?). The Nightwatcher is able to modify the mental state of her visitors, so quite a lot is possible.

Drawing in much Stormlight regularly, feeling invigorated and active though, that is the way to addiction for a surgebinder. It makes him feel good, withdrawal of Stormlight makes the world seem dull. Compare to the Thrill, that seems even worse.

53 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I agree, I don't know if Shallan will become addicted to an addictive substance, but it does raise an interesting question, which I just wanted to discuss.

I guess, that wish became true.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Pattern

[geralt]

About Shallan and the fact that she may be having alcohol issues, I guess these paragraphs from WoR could be considered as foreshadowing. It's definitely not a lot to go with, but it does show Shallan likes her alcohol and may in the future use it as an additional way to escape from reality along with the various personalities she's created. 

It worked. The illusion stayed. “Ha!” Shallan said, getting herself a cup of wine. She walked back and eased onto the bed—flopping down with a cup of red wine did not seem prudent—and looked over the side at the floor, where Pattern sat beneath Veil. He was visible because of the Stormlight. I’ll need to take that into account, Shallan thought. Build illusions so that he can hide in them.
“It worked?” Pattern said. “How did you know it would work?”
“I didn’t.” Shallan took a sip of wine. “I guessed.”
She drank another sip as Pattern hummed. Jasnah would not have approved. Scholarship requires a sharp mind and alert senses. These do not mix with alcohol. Shallan drank the rest of the wine in a gulp.

and

“Only a Radiant can open the pathway,” Shallan said, then took a sip of her wine. She liked the warmth it built inside of her. "

 

[Darvys]

39 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I wouldn't call insomnia, irritability, depression etc. harmless, but whatever.

Don't latch to an idea i never said, the addiction itself is harmless, what happens when you try to fight it is another matter as Pattern explained above, that's what we're speculating about here.

39 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I wouldn't call insomnia, irritability, depression etc. harmless, but whatever.

The painrials don't work on the same principle as Stormlight healing. They are diminisher fabrials, they take away and do not give like Regrowth does.. And, also, while there are fabrials, that can recreate Surge manipulation, not everything a fabrial does must necessarily be equal to what Surges can do.

What the inventor called it doesn't explain how it functions, what could even "taking away" the pain be other than what i suggested  ? 

You are quick to decide it's unrelated to stormlight healing when we don't know how the first operates and know close to nothing of the second.

[Darkness he/him]

33 minutes ago, SLNC said:

What I mean is that is important to distinguish between physical dependence, as in your body's cells literally can't work without the substance, and psychological dependence.

It is easy to treat the physical addiction with pharmaceuticals under strict medical supervision, but the psychological dependence remains.

Just because you're out of harms way in the physical department, doesn't mean that your addiction is gone. And yes, even psychological addictions have severe withdrawal symptoms as outlined above.

---

Do we have a confirmation for that? Psychological wounds are most definitely not comparable to physical damage. Since the Stormlight healing seems to be based on the Surge of Progression, or more specifically of the Regrowth part of that. Yes, Regrowth can heal a soul and regrow the connection between a soul and it's body, but addiction is not a wound in itself, but a rewiring. I don't think, that Regrowth would help with that, since there is nothing to "regrow".

I know of the effect of Cognitive Identity on Stormlight healing, but, once again, I don't think that, that applies to psychological disorders.

Wrong. There are severe psychological withdrawal symptoms, like insomnia, irritability, depression, lack of motivation etc. etc. There most certainly would be health consequences.

I agree, I don't know if Shallan will become addicted to an addictive substance, but it does raise an interesting question, which I just wanted to discuss.

Can a Surgebinder even get addicted to something? And I think, yes. They can.

But what would be really interesting is: Will Veil get addicted to alcohol? And what would happen with Shallan in that case?

Agreed on the importance of distinguishing between types of addiction.

Also agreed on Stormlight healing largely through Connection. However, if Stormlight can heal things like memory loss/blockage (Dalinar and Shallan), life-long poor vision (Renarin), and depression (I am indeed arguing that Stormlight healing has helped with Kaladin's SAD... I should probably ask Brandon about that sometime), I think addiction is well within its scope. Conversely, it can't even heal scars if the person doesn't want them gone, so I guess it would be harder for an addicted person to be healed (since addiction can do funny things to your willpower/desires) than someone who took an arrow to the knee.

When asking if a Surgebinder can be addicted to something, the question is mostly about what they're addicted to, and if the healing factor would overcome it. We've seen that people can get addicted to Investiture. (Mistborn spoilers)

Spoiler

Spook got addicted to Tin, and he even got tremors when he stopped using it. Vin had her metals 'burning comfortably' almost constantly at some points.

Also, if the Thrill involves Odium Investiture - which I think it does (ignore pain, heightened strength) - then Dalinar definitely formed an addiction to that.

But I don't think that we've seen someone get addicted to something other than Investiture while Invested. In fact, I'd argue the opposite: The closest thing in my opinion to Stormlight is Breath. Lightsong in particular was highly invested, drank a lot, never got drunk, and didn't seem to get addicted (interesting side note: Breath in large amounts cures disease, but not poisons. However, it does cure drunkenness... figure that one out).

If I had to take a side, I'd say that you can't form an addiction to something while being Invested. Pre-formed addictions could remain if you considered them to be part of your identity. However, there is more than enough wiggle room and lack of evidence for Brandon to take it either way.

Bonus: To address your final question, I vote Veil would be addicted and Shallan wouldn't be. Because she would grow to perceive Veil as addicted and fabricate it into her character, but Shallan would remain separate (for now).

[Steeldancer he/him]

I'm a elsecaller, and I've learned how to soulcast myself some weed

[Blacksmithki]

@Darkness I can't find it at the moment but I remember there being a WoB that Renarin had something, I can't remember what. It seems unlikely that stormlight would effect other modifications to a brain's function (Kaladin, addictions) but not that.

[Calcium]

I'm still new to this and haven't read all the posts here - sorry! But is it possible that the parshmen further away from the convergence that created the super destructive storm where less impacted than those close to the epicenter? And is it possible that if the storm keeps going around Roshar the differences in colouration and agression levels will align to have more "parshendi" parshmen than Kaladin's friendly "parshmen" parshmen?

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, Darkness said:

Also agreed on Stormlight healing largely through Connection. However, if Stormlight can heal things like memory loss/blockage (Dalinar and Shallan), life-long poor vision (Renarin), and depression (I am indeed arguing that Stormlight healing has helped with Kaladin's SAD... I should probably ask Brandon about that sometime), I think addiction is well within its scope.

I think the question of stormlight healing depression was asked and answered below.  Based on this, the "can Radiants become alcoholics" debate depends on whether you see alcoholism as a "disease" which can be cured or a lifelong part of someone's "personality" that needs to be continually managed.  Alcoholics Anonymous takes the latter view; once you are an alcoholic, you are always an alcoholic, no matter what symptoms you are manifesting at any given time.

Quote

INTERVIEW: Jan 20th, 2015

Mysterious Galaxy (Balboa Ave), San Diego, CA (Paraphrased)

LEINTON

So for Kaladin’s depression and Stormlight’s healing abilities, does Kaladin remain depressed because of his view of himself, or is it a limitation of Stormlight’s abilities to heal, or something else?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Disorders like depression are a part of a person's personality, and thus aren't diseases and cannot be cured. He talked a lot about this, and he talked about how a hyper kid annoys people but that doesn't mean there's something wrong.

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Zea mays]

Isn't Shallan getting addicted to stormlight itself? Throughout the chapter, she engages in self harm, and then undoes the pain/discomfort with stormlight. Getting rid of the unpleasant (they can be right good and nasty) effects of a bout of heavy drinking - using stormlight to remove physical pain, while using stormlight-crafted illusions to dull psychological pain.

The next time she finds herself without a ready source of stormlight, she will be in some serious aguish.

[Calderis he/him]

8 minutes ago, Zea mays said:

Isn't Shallan getting addicted to stormlight itself? Throughout the chapter, she engages in self harm, and then undoes the pain/discomfort with stormlight. Getting rid of the unpleasant (they can be right good and nasty) effects of a bout of heavy drinking - using stormlight to remove physical pain, while using stormlight-crafted illusions to dull psychological pain.

The next time she finds herself without a ready source of stormlight, she will be in some serious aguish.

She can't use stormlight to dull pain. It just heals. She chose not to heal the knife wound. That means she felt it. Veil is just... Kind of nasty. She thinks about her hand throbbing towards the end of that scene. If she'd drawn in Stormlight, the hand would have healed. There's no "just enough to not hurt" 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

Based on this, the "can Radiants become alcoholics" debate depends on whether you see alcoholism as a "disease" which can be cured or a lifelong part of someone's "personality" that needs to be continually managed. Alcoholics Anonymous takes the latter view; once you are an alcoholic, you are always an alcoholic, no matter what symptoms you are manifesting at any given time.

Not only AA does think this, it is what every reputable therapist will tell you. The pressure of the addiction does get very low though, but my father, sober for 7 years now, sometimes tells me when he feels it.

But thank you for finding that WoB.

[AbsentKeeper he/him]

11 minutes ago, Calderis said:

She can't use stormlight to dull pain. It just heals. She chose not to heal the knife wound. That means she felt it. Veil is just... Kind of nasty. She thinks about her hand throbbing towards the end of that scene. If she'd drawn in Stormlight, the hand would have healed. There's no "just enough to not hurt" 

Not implying that Shallan can do it, but wouldn't the existence of pain fabrials mean that there is a way to dull pain without healing via Surgebinding? Unless the painrials are made with a voidspren, as I am coming to believe alerter fabrials must be...

Edited October 5, 2017 by Cowmanthethird
Spelling

[Calderis he/him]

32 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Not implying that Shallan can do it, but wouldn't the existence of pain fabrials mean that there is a way to dull pain without healing via Surgebinding? Unless the painrials are made with a voidspren, as I am coming to believe alerter fabrials must be...

We have confirmation that fabrials can be used to replicate anything the surges can do. 

We have never been told that surgebinders can do anything a fabrial can. Considering how specialized each individual fabrial is.. I'm fairly sure they can do things that Radiants can't. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

We have confirmation that fabrials can be used to replicate anything the surges can do. 

We have never been told that surgebinders can do anything a fabrial can. Considering how specialized each individual fabrial is.. I'm fairly sure they can do things that Radiants can't. 

Aka, the alerter. 

[Calderis he/him]

15 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Aka, the alerter. 

Or a clock, or Spanreed, or heaters, or, or, or... 

[Zea mays]

Again (with hopefully more clarity), Shallan uses stormlight (and the illusory selves it helps her hide in) to dull psychological pain. What is going on is not healing, not in any healthy way. 

She uses stormlight to control how much physical pain she feels. She does not heal her hand, but she savors the knowledge that she could do so anytime she chose. That pain is completely under her control (she thinks). 

She can drink however much alcohol she wants and only get as drunk as she wants to be. 

 

... She can say and do whatever she wants and feel no embarassment or reprecussion: she can just become someone else. 

Ok, not yet on the last one, but I see her heading that way. 

She is coming to depend on the sense of emotional and physical immunity that stormlight grants. 

[Darvys]

@Zea mays On that note, i believe we got scenes with both Dalinar and Kaladin in which they warn themselves of the danger of relying too much on stormlight, did we ever get something similar from Shallan ? I might be wrong on my assumption, but that's the impression i have right now.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Shallan growing a Stormlight addiction sounds troubling. She is stacking problems right now. Looking forward to her arc a lot. 

Also, fabrials. I didn't know that they could do anything surges can do (thanks @Calderis). That is very intersting information. It could allow characters like Adolin or Mraize who lack a Nahel bond to be like Batman and best magic-powered individuals with technology. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

2 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Shallan growing a Stormlight addiction sounds troubling. She is stacking problems right now. Looking forward to her arc a lot. 

Also, fabrials. I didn't know that they could do anything surges can do (thanks @Calderis). That is very intersting information. It could allow characters like Adolin or Mraize who lack a Nahel bond to be like Batman and best magic-powered individuals with technology. 

Surgebinding Batman? 

That sounds freaking dope. OP. 

The Dark Radiant. 

[flying_shadow she/her]

I'm concerned that Shallan is becoming so depended on Stormlight, she won't be able to deal with her problems when it runs out and she can't Surgebind all her woes away. Maybe this is where her story is going?

[Calderis he/him]

15 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Also, fabrials. I didn't know that they could do anything surges can do (thanks @Calderis). That is very intersting information. It could allow characters like Adolin or Mraize who lack a Nahel bond to be like Batman and best magic-powered individuals with technology. 

I was just saying the other night in discord that we need a Fabrial-Tech Batman to Navani's Lucius Fox. 

Edited October 5, 2017 by Calderis

[Steeldancer he/him]

Just now, Calderis said:

I was just saying the other night instead discord that we need a Fabrial-Tech Batman to Navani's Lucius Fox. 

Plot twist: Dalinar is actually Batman.