[OB] Oathbringer chapters 16-18

[Starla]

I wonder how Shallan's brothers arriving in Urithiru will affect her. If she can tell them the whole truth about what happened with their mother, maybe they can help her begin to forgive herself. I keep thinking of the iconic scene in Good Will Hunting... Shallan needs Robin Williams to show up and tell her “It’s not your fault.”  Of course, telling her brothers the truth of what happened could also go horribly wrong. It's a risk, but one she might need to take. I feel that she desperately needs to talk to someone she trusts and her brothers are the only ones who can fully understand the horror what she lived through as a child.

@maxal Regarding the murder story not moving along as fast as you’d like... I had a similar reaction the first time I read WOR. I couldn't wait for Shallan to get to the Shattered Plains to meet up with the other characters, and it took forever for her to get there. I had very little interest in her adventures with the slave caravan the first time through (I like it now). However, once she reached the war camp in Part 3 her story really took off. Something similar could happen with the murder plot, where it is drawn out until things explode later in the book. Also, I think it may be better for Adolin's involvement in the murder to be discovered toward the end of the book, because if he’s exiled we might not see him again until book 4. Better to have his storyline play out through the whole book rather than being over too soon, and then he's gone. 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Cowmanthethird said:

I think that idea was always more of a joke than anything serious, because people are always pouring her wine, and then it's never mentioned again, or if it is mentioned, she gulps it down all at once (in the scene where she poisons her father, when she is studying in bed, and when her and Adoulin are at the Highstorm winehouse) It's probably coincidence, but I think its funny.

I never really thought there was anything to it, and I was mostly joking above (edited my comment to reflect that), but I do think she drinks more than most, especially since our other viewpoint characters avoid it for various reasons (the Kholins have the codes of war, Kaladin doesn't like bars, ECT)

Actually, Adolin is the one who gulped down his wine during the date and had a second serving (which he was not allowed to have). Shallan, as far as I can remember, stuck to one glass. Apart from this scene, I do not remember seeing Shallan drink most. In comparison, Adolin is often seen drinking, even before duels and this isn't to speak of Elhokar. I mean the only ones we have never seen drinking are Dalinar and Renarin... but we know Renari likes wine.

Before this scene, I never thought Shallan was the drinking character. Elhokar clearly comes across as a drunk in the becoming and Adolin drinks to calm his nerves which is never a good idea.

4 minutes ago, Starla said:

I wonder how Shallan's brothers arriving in Urithiru will affect her. If she can tell them the whole truth about what happened with their mother, maybe they can help her begin to forgive herself. I keep thinking of the iconic scene in Good Will Hunting... Shallan needs Robin Williams to show up and tell her “It’s not your fault.”  Of course, telling her brothers the truth of what happened could also go horribly wrong. It's a risk, but one she might need to take. I feel that she desperately needs to talk to someone she trusts and her brothers are the only ones who can fully understand the horror what she lived through as a child.

@maxal Regarding the murder story not moving along as fast as you’d like... I had a similar reaction the first time I read WOR. I couldn't wait for Shallan to get to the Shattered Plains to meet up with the other characters, and it took forever for her to get there. I had very little interest in her adventures with the slave caravan the first time through (I like it now). However, once she reached the war camp in Part 3 her story really took off. Something similar could happen with the murder plot, where it is drawn out until things explode later in the book. Also, I think it may be better for Adolin's involvement in the murder to be discovered toward the end of the book, because if he’s exiled we might not see him again until book 4. Better to have his storyline play out through the whole book rather than being over too soon, and then he's gone. 

 

This is a good comparison. I recalled I wasn't enthralled with Shallan's story arc at first: the entire santhid episode didn't appeal to me much. Despite readers not liking the plot twists, I liked when Jasnah was killed and Shallan shipwrecked because I felt he helped kicked her story forward. I'll admit I enjoyed the slavers chapters, but I too was keen on seeing her arriving in Urithiru. 

I hope Brandon does't exile Adolin or kick him out of the narrative: this is my worst fear. The exile could be interesting, but only if Brandon writes it and gives it a focus arc, like he is doing with Kaladin being away.

I am curious about Shallan's brothers too. Maybe they will help her sort her truths from her lies.

[AbsentKeeper he/him]

47 minutes ago, maxal said:

Actually, Adolin is the one who gulped down his wine during the date and had a second serving (which he was not allowed to have). Shallan, as far as I can remember, stuck to one glass. Apart from this scene, I do not remember seeing Shallan drink most. In comparison, Adolin is often seen drinking, even before duels and this isn't to speak of Elhokar. I mean the only ones we have never seen drinking are Dalinar and Renarin... but we know Renari likes wine.

Before this scene, I never thought Shallan was the drinking character. Elhokar clearly comes across as a drunk in the becoming and Adolin drinks to calm his nerves which is never a good idea.

I went back and checked, you're right, it was Adoulin in that scene, I was thinking Shallan gulped down her wine when she found out about the Highstorm, but the wine hadn't even arrived yet.

I didn't say she drank the most, just more than most other characters. Elhokar is definitely worse than she is,  and her father and one of her brothers (I think Jushu?) seem worse even than Elhokar from the little we see.

I could be wrong, but I think Adoulin drinks mostly orange wine, which they say is basically juice, other than that time he mentions something about one glass of yellow before a duel (which I admit, I questioned that logic too)

Edit: I don't really think she drinks too much though, just to be clear.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Cowmanthethird said:

I went back and checked, you're right, it was Adoulin in that scene, I was thinking Shallan gulped down her wine when she found out about the Highstorm, but the wine hadn't even arrived yet.

I didn't say she drank the most, just more than most other characters. Elhokar is definitely worse than she is,  and her father and one of her brothers (I think Jushu?) seem worse even than Elhokar from the little we see.

I could be wrong, but I think Adoulin drinks mostly orange wine, which they say is basically juice, other than that time he mentions something about one glass of yellow before a duel (which I admit, I questioned that logic too)

Yep. I recalled it was Adolin because he wasn't supposed to drink more than on glass of blue wine, but he took two.

How many references of Shallan drinking do we have? I'll admit I did not keep track of them... Elhokar drank a full pitcher of violet wine during Szeth's attack (or right after). I don't remember how much Shallan's father drank, but Jushu was a waste.

Adolin asks Dalinar to allow him to drink more than one glass of blue wine, asking for the permission to get slightly drunk. The only reason he drinks only orange wine is because Dalinar forbids him anything else except on rare occasions. I did question his logic in drinking yellow wine before a duel... Alcohol is never a good idea before sports even if the percentage of alcohol is low. It will impede on your capacities, so this was really odd.

I mean, I never found reason to think Shallan's drinking habits were worrisome before. I questioned Elhokar. I never really questioned Adolin.

[Mulk he/him]

3 hours ago, Darvys said:

@Mulk If things were worse for the whole household i figure we would have seen signs of it during her flashback, those should be safe from Shallan's tampering with her memories. So whatever caused her to crack i believe involved her alone (among the children at any rate). 

I'm going to take a shot at understanding Shallan's oath situation, Kaladin's experience isn't helpful as he didn't so much regress as run headfirst into a wall by making two contradictory promises. Still, If we assume that Shallan hiding behind her lies did to Pattern what Kal's idiocy did to Syl, then as Syl herself said the only way to save the bond would have been to speak further oaths/truths. But in a Lightweaver's case, to be able to progress, you'd first need to reach the same level of self-awareness you possessed before regressing, and that's what Shallan has been doing for the first two books and into the third, she isn't even one step closer to being a full Radiant than she was at eleven (?). If this theory is true, then none of the truths she spoke to date count as an oath. This could perhaps help explain why Pattern came back an idiot where Syl retained all her memories.

On the other hand, it could be that Lightweavers are not limited in the number of truths they can speak, this wouldn't contradict the WoB quoted earlier as there would be an upper limit, but it would simply be different for each individual lightweaver, as the more they are hiding from themselves, the more truths they would need to admit to reach true self-awareness and with it knighthood.

 

Agreed that whatever was bad happened to Shallan alone.  Also agreed that Lightweavers probably don't have a set number of truths.

If you recall, Syl did regress a bit - acted more like a child, more like a windspren before she (almost) died, with a few serious moments so it may not be quite as useless to compare.  It's entirely possible that Pattern's inability to do anything other than bump into walls is related to nothing more serious than the amount of time between Shallan's first truths/Words and when she finally began to progress again.

I would gather she actually is one step further along.  She could already summon Pattern as a blade, as she did when a child, and has spoken one more truth.  Though, it could be argued that she has regressed back out of that since speaking that truth.

Sigh. I like Shallan. I don't want to see her lose herself.

On a different subject, the fact the murder investigation is slow feels like real life to me - police don't generally move too quickly when the murdered person is someone who was almost universally hated. That's been true since there was such a thing as police.  The only reason anything is happening at all is Dalinar wants both the appearance and the fact of trying to do right, so the fact that it's eking along like molasses feels appropriate.

[Djarskublar he/him]

I'm calling it now: that Bridge 13 guy is totally either a diagramist or some other assassin. An incredibly confident one, at that, considering his talking back. I would not be the least bit surprised if he was an assassin mole set up by Ialai from the time between the sale of the bridgemen and them starting to get their lives back together. They were all too uncaring and depressed to notice one more person, and since that person wouldn't be quite able to mimic that state, they would be in the best condition and therefor able to become squad leaders. I'm fine with Dalinar and Kaladin mostly trusting Bridge 4, but the rest of the crews are just as suspect in my mind as the next person. I find it especially threatening considering that he mentioned the assassination. My impression of that was that he was subtly either threatening Dalinar or implicating him.

I thought Navani's observation about him rolling around with sweaty men particularly entertaining, but he should have retorted that at least he wasn't waist deep in a latrine Then she even called his sword practice stick-wagging. She must really like her phallic symbols...

I'm glad we got confirmation on how to spell Evi. (for those that didn't know, it's pronounced like the pokemon eevee) In retrospect I'm not sure why we were so hung up on knowing her name outside of crazy theories that she was Vivenna or something.

Quote

To fight directly might coax out forces that could hurt him, as he has been hurt before. Those scars do not heal. To pick a champion, then lose, will only cost him time.

This was the thing that interested me the most, personally. It finally answered why picking a champion was even an option/consideration for Odium, which has been bothering me in the back of my mind for a long time now. This is also interesting because it means Odium isn't at 100% and likely won't ever be again. I assume those injuries were from a straight slug fest with one of the Shards he killed (or Cultivation, but I doubt that one). My initial bet is that those injuries came from his fight with Ambition. I'm going to need to make a thread dedicated to this. This has some serious implications all around.

I am confused on one point of timing. How could it be that he married his wife to get Plate for the son he would have with her in the future?... I must be missing something here, but I can't figure what for the life of me. I mean, it could have gone to one of his men, but that doesn't seem normal to me. Yeah, it's Plate, but getting it by marriage, then giving it to someone else doesn't make sense to me. Beyond that, how did Adolin end up with it after that? This wasn't all so long ago that whoever he would have given it to should be dead. They had Plate, so they were pretty safe on the field, and it hasn't been long enough for a soldier to get old and die. Beyond that, if they did die prematurely but before it was worth giving to Adolin, it would have been passed to someone else. Dalinar may not have had much control over that, and even less for getting it to Adolin. On the other hand, I can't see them leaving it in storage for 10+ years waiting for an heir to become worthy of it while they are trying to unify Alethkar. I just don't get this point at all. This is probably going to be answered in a flashback, and is the flashback I'm most interested in right now, even more than Evi's death.

While the other two chapters had a lot of interesting things in them, I don't really think I'm ready to chip in on those.

[DSC01 he/him]

If there is a Shallan subplot where she struggles with alcoholism, it could be good, actually. It would be an understandable development after what she's been through, and fantasy so rarely deals with such issues in a grounded way. There are plenty of characters who do nothing but drink, but there never seems to be much in the way of consequences. I'd prefer for things to not go that way, personally. As @maxal noted previously, Shallan has enough to worry about as it is. In a book where three different characters are pretty much equally the main character, and you've got tertiary characters getting enough POVs to fill a novella, you can't have 50 different problems piled onto a single character. 

Of course, I don't even see the warning signs that others are. I know a guy who had to go to rehab, and at one point, his average daily consumption was about a liter of vodka a day (for at least two years straight). He's an extreme example, but knowing him, it's hard to take Shallan occasionally drinking wine and getting drunk once for the sake of a role as a warning sign that she'll become an alcoholic. Her mental health issues put her at risk, to be sure, but I wouldn't say that her actions worry me at all right now (well, they do, but not with respect to her drinking).

[AbsentKeeper he/him]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

Yep. I recalled it was Adolin because he wasn't supposed to drink more than on glass of blue wine, but he took two.

How many references of Shallan drinking do we have? I'll admit I did not keep track of them... Elhokar drank a full pitcher of violet wine during Szeth's attack (or right after). I don't remember how much Shallan's father drank, but Jushu was a waste.

Maybe I'll keep track of everyone's drinking in my next reread, I admit I've never thought about it specifically too much before today. It just seems like Shallan often has a glass of wine in her hand . Honestly, it's probably just because it's involved in a couple of her more memorable scenes.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

I am confused on one point of timing. How could it be that he married his wife to get Plate for the son he would have with her in the future?... I must be missing something here, but I can't figure what for the life of me. I mean, it could have gone to one of his men, but that doesn't seem normal to me. Yeah, it's Plate, but getting it by marriage, then giving it to someone else doesn't make sense to me. Beyond that, how did Adolin end up with it after that? This wasn't all so long ago that whoever he would have given it to should be dead. They had Plate, so they were pretty safe on the field, and it hasn't been long enough for a soldier to get old and die. Beyond that, if they did die prematurely but before it was worth giving to Adolin, it would have been passed to someone else. Dalinar may not have had much control over that, and even less for getting it to Adolin. On the other hand, I can't see them leaving it in storage for 10+ years waiting for an heir to become worthy of it while they are trying to unify Alethkar. I just don't get this point at all. This is probably going to be answered in a flashback, and is the flashback I'm most interested in right now, even more than Evi's death.

While the other two chapters had a lot of interesting things in them, I don't really think I'm ready to chip in on those.

Dalinar married to get access to an additional Shardplate for Gavilar's army. The ownership of the Plate is yet to be established, but it is assumed it was lent to someone else up until Adolin grew up enough to own it himself. I don't think the Plate belonged to anyone else but Evi up until she died, then it was transferred to her son. 

I don't think Dalinar married Evi so he yet to be born son would get a Shardplate.

3 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

If there is a Shallan subplot where she struggles with alcoholism, it could be good, actually. It would be an understandable development after what she's been through, and fantasy so rarely deals with such issues in a grounded way. There are plenty of characters who do nothing but drink, but there never seems to be much in the way of consequences. I'd prefer for things to not go that way, personally. As @maxal noted previously, Shallan has enough to worry about as it is. In a book where three different characters are pretty much equally the main character, and you've got tertiary characters getting enough POVs to fill a novella, you can't have 50 different problems piled onto a single character. 

Of course, I don't even see the warning signs that others are. I know a guy who had to go to rehab, and at one point, his average daily consumption was about a liter of vodka a day (for at least two years straight). He's an extreme example, but knowing him, it's hard to take Shallan occasionally drinking wine and getting drunk once for the sake of a role as a warning sign that she'll become an alcoholic. Her mental health issues put her at risk, to be sure, but I wouldn't say that her actions worry me at all right now (well, they do, but not with respect to her drinking).

I agree about resisting the temptation to pill in too many problems into one character. I warned against doing it for Kaladin, back in WoR and I will warn against it for Shallan in OB. She needs not to develop an alcohol problem. If Brandon wants to explore this theme, he can do it with another character: not one of the three main.

I also agree about not seeing any warning signs. I never thought much of Shallan and drinking, she seemed to drink only occasionally. I didn't think the drinks she took were a bad habits: she did it because Veil needed to be doing it. I didn't get she even enjoyed it. Besides, I would think to have an alcohol problem, one would need to be able to feel the drunkenness. Shallan was drunk for five minutes before she wiped it away with stormlight.

So nope, alcohol is not a problem nor a red warning side for me either.

2 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Maybe I'll keep track of everyone's drinking in my next reread, I admit I've never thought about it specifically too much before today. It just seems like Shallan often has a glass of wine in her hand . Honestly, it's probably just because it's involved in a couple of her more memorable scenes.

I'll pay more attention to Shallan.

[AbsentKeeper he/him]

6 minutes ago, maxal said:

Shallan was drunk for five minutes before she wiped it away with stormlight.

So nope, alcohol is not a problem nor a red warning side for me either.

The only part of it (the drinking, there are other issues) I really saw as a warning was that she didn't wipe it away with stormlight the second time, she left still drunk and took the bottle of Horneater liquor with her.

Quote

Veil felt dazed, though she didn’t know if it was from drink or the unwelcome image of the strangled women. She went and gave the barkeep some spheres—probably too many—and hooked the jug of Horneater white with her thumb, then carted it out with her into the night.

An interesting direction that I wouldn't mind reading would be for Shallan to convince herself that Veil has a drinking problem....

However, I agree that it isn't currently an issue, and I don't really think it ever will be, but I see the possibility.

[StormingTexan he/him]

That’s an interesting point about her not burning off the alcohol the second time. Not that I have any concerns at all about her becoming an alcoholic I think she was just doing it to play the part. That’s just it though if she’s just playing the part why wouldn’t she burn off the alcohol when she’s leaving? Because Veil wouldn’t.

Shallan became one of my favorite  Stormlight characters after WoR (sorry guys I know he’s a favorite but Kaladin is just meh for me). I’m even more intrigued with her from what we’ve seen so far. I know it’s probably unpopular for her to turn dark but I’m thinking I would kinda dig it as it’s not what’s expected. 

[Steve-son-son-Charles]

re: Kaladin/Parshendi

Given the Parshendi have managed to break from Odium’s influence (perhaps for only a short time, perhaps forever), what if Voidspren could do the same?

Furthermore, what if Voidspren are just high spren Odium managed to corrupt somehow, and when they break free from his influence, they return to their natural state (honour, cryptic, etc…). Whether they can remain free from Odium permanently is another unknown. Perhaps that is why Syl is somewhat concerned about being seen, but not terribly concerned about the spren (and what it might do).

Now, if Parshendi and spren can fall under Odium’s influence, then why not humans (as others have speculated)?  Or what about humans (or Parshendi) bonded to spren, if one or the other comes under Odium's influence would both do so? Which makes me wonder if this might have been part of KR downfall….

[Mulk he/him]

voidspren I would assume are little splinters/slivers/whateve the right term is of his power so I'd assume spren can't vary from their originator. Parshendi though...aren't they native to Roshar and therfore not originally subject to Odium?  I thought I'd read that somewhere, gonna have to backtrack and see if I can find that, but I thought they were some of the original inhabitants of Roshar.

[+Spicker]

On 10/3/2017 at 8:28 AM, Harbour said:

Am i the only one who played X-Files Theme during the last part of Shallan's chapter???

I swear thats something paranormal happening in Urithiru. Maybe there is some insane city-spren, who lost his mind after KR betrayal? Or its another KR we didn't know about who does all this stuff. Someone like Willshaper?

I actually had these same thoughts after the first murder, but didn't ever posted it because even I thought it was dumb. But... I have to say this chapter makes me feel less crazy for thinking it the first time. Maybe I really should have posted my "A ghost did it" theory after all 
But yeah, I definitely get the supernatural, not normal killing vibe from the way it exactly replicates another killing. It could be a spren, or a sleepless, or maybe even some type of cognitive shadow.
Do we know exactly why Urithiru was abandoned, or is it just implied to be related to the recreance? I'm a little fuzzy on this.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

I also agree about not seeing any warning signs. I never thought much of Shallan and drinking, she seemed to drink only occasionally. I didn't think the drinks she took were a bad habits: she did it because Veil needed to be doing it. I didn't get she even enjoyed it. Besides, I would think to have an alcohol problem, one would need to be able to feel the drunkenness. Shallan was drunk for five minutes before she wiped it away with stormlight.

I agree with you. I don't see any red warning signs either, but I am still a bit... worried. Maybe it is because I have seen how alcoholism can play out IRL by having my father suffering from it as a coping mechanism for his depression. And he didn't drink any hard stuff either. It mostly is just about developing a habit.

So, maybe that is why I see it a bit more problematic. But yeah, no red flags yet. Maybe a yellow. A very light yellow.

[frozndevl]

There's no way to get there without surges or live Shardblade. Which makes me wonder, where are all the bodies?

Edited October 5, 2017 by frozndevl

[TheDarkDesperado he/him]

28 minutes ago, frozndevl said:

There's no way to get there without surges or live Shardblade. Which makes me wonder, where are all the bodies?

That's a good point, no matter what reason Urithiru was abandoned you would think there would be more trace of previous inhabitants, you don't normally abandon a whole city and clean the place up before you go.

[Pattern he/him]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

6 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:

-I feel like (joking not joking) Shallan might end up an alcoholic.

I sincerely, honestly hope not. Shallan has enough to deal with as it is, no need to add this on top of it. 

With stormlight healing the poisoning I don't see any real danger there. Shallan has something much more potent than alcohol to lose herself in.

4 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

This has some serious implications all around.

The origin of the Evil on Threnody comes to mind.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Pattern

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Pattern said:

With stormlight healing the poisoning I don't see any real danger there. Shallan has something much more potent than alcohol to lose herself in.

Ah, I have tried to address this already, but it might have gone under.

The main problem with alcoholism is not really the effect. You lose it pretty early on.

Your body adapts and begins to metabolize the alcohol in a quicker way, by not only using the enzymatic way of metabolism, the alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH) and aldehyde dehydrogenase (Metabolic pathway: ethanol --use of ADH--> ethanal --use of aldehyde dehydrogenase--> acetic acid (ethanoic acid, vinegar), which then can be used to create acetyl-CoA, which then enters the normal citric acid cycle for energy generation), but also using a secondary pathway called the microsomal ethanol oxidizing system (MEOS), which gets activated when the primary enzymatic, metabolic pathway gets saturated and stays active under chronic alcohol abuse (like for alcoholics). This system is MUCH faster at metabolizing alcohol, which results in alcoholics needing more and more alcohol to even get drunk in the first place. I do think, that you can compare MEOS with Stormlight leeching the poison from Shallan's body.

Anyway, the point is that most alcoholics don't drink for the effect, because they lose it early on, but out of habit. Alcoholics need alcohol to "feel good" going so far as needing it to even function. So, Shallan might not develop a physical dependence on alcohol (thus not resulting in life-threatening alcohol withdrawal syndrome, like delirium tremens or other nasty stuff. There is a reason why benzos are used in treating alcoholism), but she definitely is able to develop habitual (psychological) dependence. Especially, if she suddenly stops inhaling Stormlight, because she begins to like the effect of the alcohol.

So yeah, she is able of sobering up fast and remove the poison from her body, but there are psychological effects to consider too.

And what is even more dangerous, with having Stormlight available for healing, it lowers the inhibitions of drinking too much, because it provides an easy way out (we can see that happening with her drinking that Horneater stuff). But here's the thing, if she or Veil does begin to develop a liking towards alcohol, she might be less inclined to even use this easy way out.

There is a reason doctors say, that the physical side of alcohol addiction is easily treated. The psychological side is what takes time and why there are so many relapsers.

Edited October 5, 2017 by SLNC

[Pattern he/him]

@SLNC: The thing is, you don't become an alcoholic from getting drunk once in a while. As you correctly pointed out, the danger lies in the habit, so a glass of wine or two each evening is much more dangerous.

But with stormlight healing the consequences of alcoholism are really a non-issue for a surgebinder. So what, if Shallan decides to drink wine instead of water (sapphire wine definitely is no wine in our sense, its hard stuff)? She has to fear no health consequences from it. It would surely give a bad example, though.

I want to point out that the severe problems and consequences of alcoholism in real life should in no way be applied to Shallan. She has other problems and other more or less working coping mechanisms. Stormlight healing does trivialize the problems associated with alcoholism so we really should avoid direct comparisons. 

If we wanted to look for an alcoholic in SA, we should take a closer look at Dalinar in the past. There we might find real consequences, which cannot be expected to be found with a surgebinder. Teft also would be a suspicious candidate to look closer to (Elhokar already was mentioned).

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Stormlight healing does trivialize the problems associated with alcoholism so we really should avoid direct comparisons. 

This is what I really don't believe to be true. People tend to focus too much on the physical side of alcohol addiction (or any substance addiction for that matter). I can't blame them, because it is what is taught everywhere. Substance withdrawal syndrome is dangerous! Which is true, but the real problem is the psychological addiction.

Since a surgebinder can essentially decide by himself, when he wants to be drunk or not, it makes it even more dangerous. Think about it, let's say Shallan (or another surgebinder) likes to drink a bottle of wine in the evening "to wind down", because she likes the buzz. Why shouldn't she do it, she thinks, she can sober up any minute anyway. So, she starts doing it regularly. And there is no reason to use Stormlight, because there is noone, that wants something from her. A surgebinder doesn't automatically sober up, he only does it, when he wants to be sober.

My point is, that having the easy way out with Stormlight, lowers inhibitions, which in turn results in higher alcohol consumption.

I agree, that Shallan probably won't get delirium tremens, but you really can't just ignore the psychological problems it might ensue.

What is even more dangerous is the fact, that Veil seems to be the one, who is prone to drinking plenty of alcohol. If Shallan really becomes Veil, she might not even notice the alcohol dependence building. What remains to be seen is, if a habitual dependence for Veil would also affect Shallan. But it most definitely would affect Shallan's body, though, yeah, Stormlight will probably balance the withdrawal syndrome out.

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by SLNC

[Darvys]

@SLNC Remove the physical harm and the addiction itself becomes almost irrelevant, most of us are addicted to one thing or another. The only problem remaining would be the surgebinder's limited mental faculties while drunk, i don't want to imagine the kind of mess they can make, especially if they are unwilling to let the stormlight heal them and so retain full access to their surges. Honestly, this isn't something i want to read about, it's just ... meh.

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Remove the physical harm and the addiction itself becomes almost irrelevant, most of us are addicted to one thing or another.

And that is just plain wrong. If that were to be true, then there would be no relapses.

[Darvys]

9 minutes ago, SLNC said:

And that is just plain wrong. If that were to be true, then there would be no relapses.

I don't see how this relates to what you quoted, can you clarify ?

[Pattern he/him]

The thing is, if a surgebinder wants to get rid of an addiction, he can use Stormlight to heal himself. It does not only heal poisoning and physical damage but also psychological wounds. It's all about perception. If a surgebinder views himself as with no alcohol problem, he will have none.

6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

And that is just plain wrong. If that were to be true, then there would be no relapses.

A relapse would be meaningless, too, if there were no health consequences to an addiction. This of course leaves out cases where an addiction takes more and more time, like the urge to discuss things on a forum, or to have a look at your smartphone as soon as it beeps.

To come back to Shallan, she really does not need alcohol to numb her pain. She already does use her Lightweaving much more efficiently than alcohol could ever be. Both things won't solve her problems though.